Howard: Warning signs ???

[cc]

Dear Howard, I feel very sorry for the outcome of your marriage but there is no doubt that you did your very best. Were there any warning signs in Ayesa'a behavior during your dating time in Leyte, which in retrospect could have tipped you off? I am still puzzled that someone who made you feel loved could turnout so cold in the end... Best wishes for the New Year!

[Howard]

... in response to Howard: Warning signs , posted by cc on Dec 28, 2002


If you find yourself in a foreign country, prepared to ask someone that you have never met in person prior to the visit you are making at the moment to marry you, you might be in trouble :c)  LOL!  Sorry, I had to :c)

Seriously, there were none.  Even when I look back with a more educated eye, I can find no Red Flags from my visit.  Honestly, I think I could've travelled there ten times and never seen any.  She was on her best behavior and had her mother there, never more than ten feet away, to instruct her, in Visayan, if she was neglecting to do something her mother thought she should be doing.  The only thing I can even think of in retrospect is that they must've asked me ten times, during different conversations pertaining to my intentions, to promise to "Send her home when I got tired of her..."  I simply assumed it was them being humble, thinking that I would get tired of a "simple, country girl..."  Maybe I should have paid more attention to the fact that they felt the need to ask for such a promise, but it made sense to me that they were asking.  Little did I know...

I think Don is the most correct in one regard, "It could happen to any one of us"

The only real warning sign I received was just prior to her arrival in June of 2001.  Her cousin called me frantic over how depressed Ayesa was about "leaving".  We talked, Ayesa and I, and I told her that is she wasn't ready I would understand.  I told her that I would be hurt, but that I understood what she must be feeling.  I told her more than once that if she had any doubts, that would be the time to slow down.  Privately, I freaked out about how much money, and embarrassment, it would cost me if she didn't come as planned, but I never made those comments to her.  I just tried to be understanding and compassionate.  I assumed she simply had "cold feet".  I was having my moments of crisis, so I couldn't begrudge her hers.

After the wedding she seemed quite happy for a while.  I really thought everything was gonna be OK, then we stopped communicating.  It all started innocently enough.  When I relaized what was going on, I tried to fix it.  By the time we were married six months, all she did was go to work, clean the house and do her best to avoid me.  I kept trying to approach her from different angles, but now I see that she had already made up her mind that she wasn't going to make any effort to make our marriage successful.  It just took me a while to accept that.  I can barely accept it now.

During my failed attempt to reach my wife, one thing became very clear to me.  I had throroughly laid our my plan for our life together to her in the letters I wrote her.  I had asked her opinion, listened to her replies and we had even compromised on some things.  As far as I was concerned, we had a very healthy dialog going about what our life would be like when she got here.  When I tried to call her on some of her actions that I felt were contrary to what we had discussed on paper, she was clueless.  It almost seemed like she was hearing things for the first time.  Well... she was!  In my all too tardy digging for the truth of late, I have been told, confirmed, and have no doubt in my mind that she wasn't even writing the letters that were being sent to me.  Her mother was.  It's not as evil as it sounds.  We know where the road that good intentions pave leads...  I don't think it was intentional, but her mother didn't exercize the best judgement.  She never listened to her daughter.  According to Ayesa, her parents "Forced" her into this.  I think it's more like they encouraged her to do this because they thought it would the best thing for Ayesa in the long run.  I don't think her parents intentionally set me up to fail, but that's certainly how it ended up.

Any time you have to trust somene you run the risk of betrayal.  The only way to avoid it is to not trust anyone.  What kind of life would you end up leading then?

My marriage cousellor helped me see some things in an entirely different light.  While her wasn't afforded the opportunity to help save my marriage, he did me alot of good through his attempts.  In our many conversations, he made me see things that I refused to consider.  When I have the time and energy, I plan on sharing my thoughts here.  As soon as I work through a few more details, I promise more posts.  I am lurking, while I get my thoughts in order.  I will always try to answer any questions anyone has.  ANYTHING I can do to help someone else avoid what I am going through only helps me cope with the situation.

Best of Luck :c)

The Truth is out There :c)

H

[Jeff S]

... in response to Warning signs, posted by Howard on Dec 28, 2002

Didn't you say in an earlier post, that she was never affectionate with you when you were together before being married? or am I thinking of someone else. Sorry if I had your story confused with someone else's.

-- Jeff S.

[Howard]

... in response to Re: Warning signs, posted by Jeff S on Dec 28, 2002

...I just assumed it was a matter or propriaty.  No one was "hanging" on anyone that I noticed anywhere there.  Personally, I think intense displays of public affection are inconsiderate.  We were never left alone long enough for me to have the opportunity.  From what everyone else here has said about chaperones, things like that, and the fact that my wife was a virgin, I simply assumed that that was just the way it was with a "Good Girl".  

Were we like two teenagers feeling each other up in the town square?  No.

Did I think it was strange, especially considering the cultural differences and the supposed heightened sense of family values associated with the Philippines?  No.

For the record.  I did mention that my wife wasn't that affectionate when I visited her in the Philippines.  That is not what brought up the flags.  It was the fact that she remained that way after we were married that caused me concern.  I didn't find it inappropriate that my wife would only sneak me a kiss when we were in her parent's house.  Actually I found it refreshing at the time.

So much for my prognostication :c)

Hope that answers your question :c)

H

[Jeff S]

... in response to Yes... but, posted by Howard on Dec 28, 2002

.. and I want you to know I wasn't trying to get down on you. I know you really pursued this relationship sincerely. I was just trying to piece together any warning signs that might be of use to others. For myself, had I only spent time with my sweetie in the presence of her family, I probably would never have married her - because she's awfully reserved in the presence of her father and sister who have very strong, domineering personalities. It was only alone together that her true self comes out. She is also older than I, quite mature and, I knew, was ready for a long term committed relationship - probably more so than I was. All the signs were there - as someone mentioned below, you could see it in her eyes, her touch, the way she did little, things for me, put her trust in me, stood by me around others, and a million other details. I believe awareness of these things only comes with spending lots of time together in all sorts of various situations, good and bad, fun and miserable, alone and in a crowd. Don't get me wrong, some people have lucked out (or prayed, or ??) in shortcutting this time spent together (Karl comes to mind. He seems to have a great relationship in spite of their age difference and that they'd never met - as have several others) but most of us aren't so lucky. Again, I'm not blaming you because you sure put far more effort into trying to make it work than I ever would have.

-- Jeff S.

[Howard]

... in response to Yes it answers it., posted by Jeff S on Dec 29, 2002

Jeff,

I re-read my reply and guess I did come off a little terse.  I did not mean it as a defense, I wouldn't take that posture with you :c)

I know that you're only trying to decypher my situation to help others, as am I, and you have been nothing but supportive to me :c)

Didn't mean to come off like a jerk, sometimes my emotions aren't as well in check as usual, I know you understand :c)

H

[SteveG]

... in response to Yes... but, posted by Howard on Dec 28, 2002

Howard,
 As you are aware, I'm sure, I was the one who pointed this out a couple of times about your early "Ayessa" posts.  The affection I was talking about expecting from   a Filipina was not so much the intense physical touching that you would expect of teenagers here in the good ol USA but rather a simple show of caring.  Wether in public or not.   Such as holding hands or 'making eyes' at each other in public.  Does the lady take your hand sometimes or do you always make the first move, could be one sign.  For instance, when taking long bus rides, Melly would often lean her head over on my shoulder and fall asleep.  A simple thing but it shows that she had some trust and affection for me.

  You are right that kissing in public or heavy petting are taboo in the Philippines....or anywhere else in my books when looking for a wife!  LOL  I wouldn't want somebody who is so brazen.   Anyway, this was just a thought of mine when trying to analyze your situation and look for early warning signs.

                            SteveG

[Howard]

... in response to Re: Yes... but, posted by SteveG on Dec 29, 2002

Steve,

I know where you're coming from.  I am trying to figure out if I missed something in my ignorance.  I just don't think she did anything in appropriate or anything to set off an alarm.

We did hold hands in public, although I'm not sure who initiated it.  I'm pretty sure it was equal, but not positive.  We took a few long rides in vans I hired and on them she would fall asleep on my chest, complete with drool :c)

In searching my memory for the "signs", I keep coming up with the obvious.  Her move here and her seperation from her family.  I think she wasn't anticipating the enormity(sp?) of change she found.  Without her family to assure her that she was making the right decision on a continuous basis, she doubted her own strength and created this whole "I'm a victim..." thing.  Eventually, she started to believe her own dillusions and set about ruining our relationship as a self defense.

Then again, maybe it's just as she said.  Although, I have a hard time buying that either.

I dunno, we'll never really know

H

[SteveG]

... in response to For the Record..., posted by Howard on Dec 30, 2002

Howard,
 OK, forgive me if I seem to have taken a chisel to this percieved crack in your relationship with Ayessa.    I just keep looking for and telling myself that there must be a way for you to mark all the land mines that lead to the ultimate ending of your marriage so that new guys coming along can avoid the same path.  I guess my personality just has a hard time accepting that it's possible to fail at something if you prepare yourself enough and work at it with sufficient diligence.   But it seems as if you just had all the tolerances stacked up on you at once on this one, if I may use a little Mechanical Engineering talk here.   Well, I hope the best for you in the coming days ahead.
                              SteveG

[kevin]

... in response to Re: Warning signs, posted by Jeff S on Dec 28, 2002

I think you're right about what you read.  I remember that too.

Perhaps he was just blind to know the difference.  Especially if there was a cover up alibi (like "it's considered impolite in the Philippines for a boy and girl to be seen holding hands).  In my case, I can remember when I was in the Philippines, in the house, I'd often look at my now-ex-wife.  Just looking at her in the sense I was attracted to her and found her beautiful.  But when she saw my gaze, she'd always say "What!".  As if there was something wrong with my eyes being on her.  My reply was, "Nothing's wrong.  You're beautiful."  Then she'd say something like "In the Philippines when you gaze at somebody it means something is the matter".

When somebody is truly in love, male or female, that person glows.  When my ex just got to this country, some people noticed, through facial and body gestures, mannerisms, etc., that she didn't seem to really be in love.  But it was just their observations, they did not know for sure.  They told me about this after the divorce was in progress.

It's sad to say, but people marry for many reasons other than love.  I think some guys in my age group have married out of social pressure, because they perceived themselves as getting too old and all of their friends were getting married.  And alot of people marry for money.  But with marriage comes the reality of day-to-day living.  Having bills to pay, to eat and sleep with your partner, to weather any kind of crisis that comes about, to take care of your partner when he/she is sick.  An even heavier weight is rearing children that come along.  If there were never feelings of love to begin with, the only attractive alternative is to escape from all these responsibilities associated with married life.  Antipathy sets in towards one's partner.  The root of quarreling with one's spouse is not so much differences in opinions of how things should be done, etc., but instead aversion towards the spouse.  This is when no matter how much one spouse does for the other and tries to make him/her happy, it just never works.  This is when infidelity often comes into the picture.  On the other hand, when a couple loves each other, and profound conflict enters the picture, the strive for a compromise and both hold their union as being sacred no matter what.

For me, I'd rather never get married period, than marry for any reason other then love.  I'd like to have a special woman in my life someday, but the fundamental challenge is "to find love on a two-way street."

In spite of the MOB realm where it is often said (and drilled down my throat by some folks in my circle) that Filipinas only marry white guys for money, a better life, etc., I do beleive that some marry for love.  I think it shows just by the way some Filipinas post here.  Raquel (Febtember) is a good example.  Through this board, I think she "glows".  You can tell that she's very happy.  Love is a very powerful emotion.  When somebody is in love, it makes it that much easier to sort out the everyday problems in life that face each partner and work together towards a compromising solution, so that both are comfortable.

- Kevin

[panther]

... in response to Re: Re: Warning signs, posted by kevin on Dec 28, 2002

I was told by some that my wife was the "unhappiest bride" they ever saw.  I noticed that she didn't appear that happy in some of the wedding pictures .  I just found out recently that when I left for the church on the day of our wedding and my wife was still in the house, she called someone on the phone.  She was talking in tagalog and was upset and crying. This went on for 10 minutes. There are pieces to this puzzle I don't have yet and may never have.  We had the normal conflicts for a newly wed couple, many of them my fault but there was some underlying conflict or unhappiness in my wife which ultimately led to our breakup.  I suspect her family was putting some kind of pressure on her.  I don't understand why someone would get her agitated and upset on her wedding day. I would really like to know who she was talking to on the phone.

[greg]

... in response to Similar Experience, posted by panther on Dec 28, 2002

Why didn't You ask her before marrying her???

[panther]

... in response to Re: Similar Experience-STeve, posted by greg on Dec 29, 2002

My post says "I just found out recently".  I also received another revelation this week.  People are just reluctant to give bad news or interfer in a relationship.  They want the best for you.  It's after the relationship ends that they start to piece things together and talk to you.

[kevin]

... in response to Warning signs, posted by Howard on Dec 28, 2002

I recently ended a year long correspondence, because I beleived that, in this case, words and actions were two different things.  Over time there was an e-mail pattern.  Sometimes I'd get an e-mail every second or third day at the most frequent interval.  Then at other times I'd wait as long as three weeks for another e-mail.  I have sent money and disposable cameras during the course of our correspondence.  I even bought her a real camera (a fairly nice one too) with a supply of film for her birthday.  Yet I had not received any pictures since March.  I've never even got one snail-mail from her (whether a letter, new pictures, or a greeting card) during the course of the year.

To me, her apathy was evident in spite of what she might say.  For my own good, I had to call it quits and move on.  Presently, I'm reaching out to make new pen-pals.  I can only do so much to protect myself, yet I think I know when something is likely to be a dead-end situation.

- Kevin

[MM]

... in response to Re: Warning signs, posted by kevin on Dec 28, 2002

I printed out the copy of the Filipina who went back to the Philippines as she was so lonely and then came back and divorced her husband. I gave it to my wife to see what she thought, and she says she feels so sad and depressed as well that she would like to return home. Then the next day, she says she'll just go to visit in August for 2 weeks. Its got nothing to do with a green card shark, or money hungry or anything, and there are no warning signs. She was not out to deceive anyone. She just never comprehended what she was doing, in that completely changing your life is very hard to do. She thought it would be a lot more like tv, with a beautiful house and smiling children. I really beleive that there would be far fewer Filipinas looking for Caucasian husbands if they could come and live here any time they chose, and didn't require a visa. she says that if she was already living here when we met, she still would have wanted to date me but not be in any rush to get married. The problem is exactly what Howard said. You can visit the Philippines 100 times, and be absolutley certain that your wife loves you more than anything. But it means nothing when you take her out of her only environment she's ever known, and put her in a completely different world. In hindsight, I still would have married my wife, but I would have had far fewer expectations of her quickly adapting to the lifestyle here. I was hoping for her to return to school in January, and make some non-internet friends and that, but she's completely focused on raising the standard of living for her parents by sending most of her money home. I don't really mind, as what she does with her own money is her busines but I think if she began to think of her life as "here", she would be happier. Her parents have never once asked for anything, but she feels obligated as they paid for all her college. Well, we're off to have her try skiing in the Rockies over the next week, so hopefully that should brighten her week up.