A reply to Steve that is really for everyone

[Howard]

I started this as a reply for a post below between SteveG and I, but though that it might get missed, so I decided to start it as a new thread, hoping more would read and comment on my thoughts.  Steve, Trust me, I completely understand where you are coming from.  It would help me a great deal to be able to pin point the fracture in my marriage.  I would even be greatful for the concrete knowledge that it was all my fault.  Something I did.  Something I didn't do, that I was supposed to.  Some unforgivable slight that I made without understanding that I was... and so on.  When I first realized we were having difficulty, I replayed every second of our relationship in my mind.  I combed every inch mental tape over and over again.  I looked for the clues that should have been obvious to me.  I'm intelligent and quite street wise.  I understand how people think and I usually know what people's words really mean.  Yet I found nothing, but the truth that I am faced with now.  I don't find any of it diabolical.  It is completely conceivable to me, knowing everyone involved, that this is nothing more than a case of parents wanting something better for ther daughter than they feel thay have to offer, a confused child trusting those she loves and respects and a man so desperately searching for something to believe in, that he could talk himself into just about anything.The saddest part is that I will be fine.  Sure, it will take a long while to get myself together.  I may never get over this, but I will get on with my life nonetheless.  I may not find what I am looking for, but I am wise enough to cherish what is within my means.  My wife hates her parents and feels that she will never be able to forgive them for their lack of judgement.  They feel disgraced by her and may not be complex enough to understand that they have to accept most of the blame for this situation.So what do we have left?  Me?  I'm emotionally damaged and have lost a buck or two in this, but I'll make more money.  I will always grieve for what could've been and I will always care for my wife.  But, this is not, by far, the worst thing that I have ever had to go through in my life.  It may sound cold and I may be over estimating my resiliancy(sp?), but it feels like the truth to me.  I will keep everyone informed though :c)  Ayesa?  I would almost feel better if I knew she were running to something, rather than away from her parents and myself.  Emotionally, this has taken the biggest toll on her.  Sure, she places no value on our marriage, but don't think that everything up until now hasn't been difficult for her.  And her parents may have lost not only Ayesa, but the respect of their other children as well.  I'm almost out of the picture, but this whole things isn't over at all.  Not by a longshot.People compliment me for sharing my story and I commend you for sharing the concern that others may learn from this and avoid heartache themselves and causing it for others.  It's unnecessary, I don't do it for people to think more of me and I'm sure it isn't your motivation either.  But, I think alot of us are missing a large part of the lesson.  If all we try to do is coach other guys on what to look for so that they don't end like me, or Shadow or Panther..., who is protecting these women from ending up like Ayesa?  Their parents?  Their Governement?  Who better to protect them than the men who seek a better life from knowing them? I'm here for a while.  I'd like to say I'm in it for the long haul, but at this point I am just not sure.  I don't think I could do this all over again.  At least not like I have.  What's my alternative?  How do I protect myself?  I'm not sure that there is a way to protect yourself if you go this route.  Too much is left up to trust and luck, things that no one can control.  The difference between me and most of the guys here--the ones that are happily married and went the MOB route--was simply luck.  I'll be here as long as I can to help try and figure this whole thing out with anyone that wants to be honest in its discussion.  I'd like to find a way to feel less like I was shooting craps if I were to decide to try again.  There are so many things that are right about a Filipina for a wife and so many things that are simply myth.  I just think that we owe it to the women who are honest in their intentions to consider their fates as important as our own.I'm am not trying to preach!  I just think that everyone is so busy defending me that they don't see my wife's pain at all. Just thoughts I thought that I should share. More later...H

[Bubba]

... in response to A reply to Steve that is really for ever..., posted by Howard on Mar 2, 2002

You did give the new and old guys an answer.  When you talked to her this time about some of the things she wrote in the letters she gave you a blank stare.  She didn't write them.

The answer is to talk about these things a second and third time face to face to be sure the women you are talking to is the woman you and writting to and that the answers match.  If they don't match then you have your red falg and you can do with it what you want.

Howard if you had talked with her face to face about what you wrote in the letters you MIGHT have discovered this problem.

Good luck in what ever you do and don't give up!

[Jimbo]

... in response to A reply to Steve that is really for ever..., posted by Howard on Mar 2, 2002

Howard, I think you really nailed it here:

"...this is nothing more than a case of parents wanting something better for ther daughter than they feel they have to offer, a confused child trusting those she loves and respects, and a man so desperately searching for something to believe in that he could talk himself into just about anything."

Whether they want to believe it or not, most any MOB seeker could have ended up in your shoes, because of the luck and the gamble and the 'blinders' involved.  I agree with Ray completely when he says it's all about increasing the odds.

When one thinks about it, does ANY kind of potential marriage differ significantly with regard to those variables of luck, the gamble, and the blinders?  No, not significantly I would say.  Marriage is still marriage - a huge commitment that involves the extremely difficult task of learning to live with a partner in life.  An overseas asian bride may bring additional risks in some areas (of which we are all familiar), but aren't those risks offset by the elimination of the risks that an AW would bring (of which we are all familiar)?

No matter who you want to marry, it's all about increacing the odds.  

Just my .02; thanks for your thoughts Howard, and Happy New Year to you.

Jim

[Ray]

... in response to A reply to Steve that is really for ever..., posted by Howard on Mar 2, 2002

Hi Howard,

It’s good to see that you are taking all this with a positive outlook. I think all this speculation about what you did wrong and which signs you missed along the way are not the real lessons to be learned here. Like you alluded to, the real point is that this pursuit of a foreign wife is a gamble, a BIG gamble. And we shouldn’t forget that it’s just as much of a gamble for the ladies as it is for us, probably more so.

You were real close when you said that too much is left to trust and luck, but the difference between you and the guys that were successful is a little more than just simply luck. Some people have better intuition and some guys put in a lot more time and effort. But I agree that luck is a big factor.

There is no mathematical equation where you can plug in the variables and find out in advance if your relationship will work or not. There is a lot more to this than going down a checklist of warning signs to see if she is the right one or not. I think the whole key to success is to be realistic in your expectations. In my opinion, a lot of guys are doomed to failure from the start and there isn’t much you can do to help them because they are caught up in a fantasy world and don’t want to listen to practical advice. I hate to say it, but there are some guys that I won’t even bother trying to warn because they are hopeless anyway. But the majority of us are going about this search with our eyes open and are keeping things in perspective.

I think the fist sign of trouble for most guys is what they do when they decide to purchase some addresses from a pen-pal service. They look at the photos of the ladies as the primary factor in making their selections. I realize that’s a natural thing to do for our species, but not always very smart. You should be realistic. Like Patrick always says, if you’re a 55 year-old, bald, fat Wal-Mart security guard and you’re picking out those 20 year-old hot looking chicks, then you’re really bucking the odds. If you are an avowed atheist and she is a devout Catholic, then you’re bucking the odds. If you had vasectomy and she wants children, then you’re bucking the odds. Yes, this is a gamble, but you should always try to tip the odds in your favor whenever possible.

From what I’ve seen. by far the biggest mistake that both the guys and the girls make is trying to hide their faults during the courtship process. We want to portray ourselves in the best possible light, but tend to forget to be honest up front with our partners. When she finally gets here after all the paperwork and waiting, she has probably fixed a mental picture of her dream life in her mind. When she finds out that you are not the person she thought you were, don’t be surprised if she isn’t happy. Does she know about your hot temper? Does she know that you like to smoke a little weed now and then? Does she know you don’t want children for a few years? Does she know you sometimes drink too much? If you can do an honest self-evaluation and then share the results with your prospective mates in advance, There will be fewer surprises later when you two are living together. It’s all about increasing the odds.

I don’t fully agree with the guys that say you can only really know someone after you meet in person. That’s a big part of it, but not the final determining factor. If you think you can correspond for a few months and then spend 2 weeks together and really know each other, then you’re just fooling yourselves. My belief is that a long period of open and honest correspondence can reveal most of what you should know about each other, your hopes, your dreams, your values, your character. There is always the chance that one or both of you is being dishonest during the courtship period, but time and common sense will almost always reveal your true intentions. More time spent corresponding will increase your odds, just as more time together in person will increase your odds.

Howard, I think you and Ayesa probably knew that you were taking a gamble when you married. It’s O.K. to take a gamble if you know what you are doing and you are both comfortable with the odds. I think the key factor in making a successful marriage is a commitment to make it work, even when the going gets rough. From your story, I think you had that commitment but your partner didn’t. That’s a tough thing to know in advance, but probably the major key to success. If you can be reasonably assured that both of you are fully committed to making it work in the long haul, then the odds are in your favor.

If can learn something from this failure, and I think you are type of guy who is definitely capable of that, then you’ll do fine in your next relationship, whenever and wherever that may be. At least the odds will be better next time :-)

Just my rambling thoughts,

Ray

[BrianN]

... in response to Gambling, posted by Ray on Dec 31, 2002

Of particular note, is the "hiding thyself", in long distance courtship/communications...

I don't know if anyone else has ever experienced this in the past, but having some misunderstandings and even arguments during the email/mail/telephone communications phase leading up to a visit, can actually be beneficial to the relationship.

In my current long distance relationship... we've had several, and one of them almost split us up.  But it wasn't character thingys that were the problem, it was simple misinterpretation of words used, and even some insecurity that had existed on both sides.

Getting over these hurdles, have actually strengthened the relationship, because we both know that there aren't any guarantees, and no such thing as a perfect picture of a future dreamland type relationship or life together.

All too often, in the first three months, it seemed as if things were "too perfect" to be real, (also caught myself falling into a "trance" that I didn't want to be woken up from).  Later I also noticed that there were significant differences in the way that I spoke/wrote to my interpreter, and the way that I spoke/wrote to the lady I'm interested in.

As if I was more honest and forthcoming about things to the interpreter.  hmmm, note to self, try to be more open and honest with the lady too, and get on the same level of open communication.  For instance, I'm a big flirt, with all women, including my interpreter... but jeez.  I wasn't doing this with my lady!  Big mistake. I had a better friendship with my interpreter than I did Lena.  (took a while to figure this one out).  

But, even if I was considering a filipina that could speak english, I could see myself being the same, making the exact same mistakes.

Avoiding troubling issues, avoiding conflicts at all cost, catering to things that may be "out of character" for me, but in character for her; painting a false picture of myself (by agreeing to her every spoken word), my life, and my expectations.

This post is kind of all over the place, but Ray's words were dead on target.  It's the illusion that has the capacity to become delusion, and disappointment if conflicts of interest aren't approached, dealt with, and understood on both sides, BEFORE any chances are taken that could result in long term disaster.

Oh well, nice place to rant this is...  I'll shut up now.

[Ray]

... in response to Arguments can actually be helpful., posted by BrianN on Dec 31, 2002

Brian,

You’re absolutely correct that engaging in some arguments during the courtship phase can be a good thing. It not only resolves important issues in advance, but also gives you a glimpse into how conflicts will be resolved later during the marriage. If you two can argue your points on sticky issues in a calm and intelligent manner, without resorting to name calling or causing hurt feelings, then the odds are that you will probably have a better chance at a successful relationship down the road. This should also be a key indicator of the lady’s maturity level, as well as your own.

As far as being open and honest and showing your true self up front in the relationship, there are probably dozens of ways to do that. In my case, I wrote a long snail mail letter, I think the second or third letter, outlining all my significant faults or bad habits. I figured if something was going to be a problem, better to scare her off now before the relationship started getting serious. I tried to be brutally honest and I also threw in some of my perceived good qualities just to balance things out a little :-). I never did anything like that before, but I found that I actually learned a lot about myself just by sitting down and trying to accurately describe myself on paper, including both the good and the bad traits. It was a kind of self-inventory. Instead of scaring her off, she said she was impressed with my honesty and she wrote a similar letter to me. We had a few issues that needing resolving, but we were able to work on those and reach an understanding early on. Whatever works for other guys is fine.

Ray

[BrianN]

... in response to Excellent Point!, posted by Ray on Dec 31, 2002

that I'm a totally hosed house maid.  I guess I'll get rid of the old pizza boxes, soda and beer cans, wipe the quarter inch thick crud off of the lamp shades and the piano... (like everybody else seems to do here - thanks guys I don't feel alone- lol) and finally do ALL of my laundry at once, probably the day before she gets here!

hehe

Certain instincts, I guess are just too "inSTINKtive".

[Jeff S]

... in response to Oh yeah, but I'd never tell her.., posted by BrianN on Jan 1, 2002

Dave H had a good recommendation too - before his fiance arrived he actually installed a toilet seat.
-- Jeff S.

[Dave H]

... in response to Re: Oh yeah, but I'd never tell her.., posted by Jeff S on Jan 1, 2002

Hi Jeff,

A nice soft padded one at that! You know how thin Asian women can be. ;o)) Now all we need is a tabo.

Dave H.

[Eman]

... in response to Oh yeah, but I'd never tell her.., posted by BrianN on Jan 1, 2002

n/t

[Jeff S]

... in response to Gambling, posted by Ray on Dec 31, 2002

I especially like the "long period of open and honest communication" part. Your job is to make sure not only are you being open and honest, but is your partner as well. I don't know any formula for figuring that one out either. After all that, though, comes the tough part. The continuous committment to success the first few years take, on the part of both parties, until the relationship is strong enough to maintain itself on it's own. To use the mechanical engineering analogy brought up below, it takes lots of energy to get that flywheel spinning, but far less once it gets up to speed.
-- Jeff S.

[Humabdos]

... in response to Gambling, posted by Ray on Dec 31, 2002

I hate to admit it but...  I agree with 98% of that!
Humabdos

[greg]

... in response to Gambling, posted by Ray on Dec 31, 2002

Thanks, your voice of wisdom )) greg

[Kreeger]

... in response to Gambling, posted by Ray on Dec 31, 2002

...It wasn't rambling, Ray  That was a well-written, accurate (very) account of reality. Although am taking a gamble like the rest of us, I hope the odds are in my favor. I am NOT a gambling man, and when I DO gamble, I am not very lucky... but I know when to back away from the craps table and cash in my remaining chips.

I think the odds may be in my favor, though. Although we have only corresponded for 4 months, I feel a connection and it is not like any other I have had. I will take it slow, no doubt, for I am the most skeptical of skeptics. I am a rationalist (a nicer word for atheist) and she is Catholic, but we have discussed this already, so my cards are on the table. We will just see.

Joe

[Ray]

... in response to Rambling..., posted by Kreeger on Dec 31, 2002

Thanks Joe.

I was curious about the religion issue and how you two are handling it. Have you discussed marriage yet and what kind of wedding ceremony you might have? Have you discussed the issue of religious training for your children? If you marry, will you take her to church on Sundays and let her display religious items in your home?

I have personally known Fil-Am couples where she was Catholic and he was non-religious and it worked out pretty well for them. It doesn’t have to be a point of friction in the marriage if you can both respect each other’s beliefs (or non-beliefs). I think there would be much more tension if the partners were devout followers of less-compatible belief systems, say Catholic and Muslim, where the issue of which religion the children would be raised under could cause serious problems, for example.

A point to keep in mind is that a Catholic is not allowed to marry outside the church. If she were to marry in a civil ceremony, then she would technically be giving up the right to fully participate in her religion. But if you have discussed this in advance, and she accepts the idea of a non-religious wedding, then she shouldn’t hold it against you later on. One problem to consider is that if she agrees to a civil wedding, she may be unhappy deep down inside at a later date.

Catholics are allowed to marry non-Catholics in the church in many cases, but are usually discouraged from doing so. The church in the Philippines seems to be much more open to bending the rules from what I’ve seen. I know several guys who are non-Catholics and had a big church wedding over there. The important thing is that she is happy with her decision to marry outside her religion if that is the path you choose. If your bride is truly happy on her wedding day, then that’s a good start to a happy marriage.

Ray