pre-nups?

[zed]

I have gotten the impression that many here in the forum have had (or have friends who have had) marriages with latina women that didn't work out.  I have a buddy who's getting ready to marry a Peruana and my question is: how many of you guys asked your girl to sign a pre-nuptial agreement, how did she respond, etc?

As a side, how long did the marriages last and what were the main reasons for divorcing?  How many of you found that your women became Americanized, etc?  And when you did divorce, what happened?  Did she take you for a lot of dough, did she have to go back to LA, etc?

I met a guy when I was in Barranquilla in March who said the first three years with his Colombiana (he was recently divorced) were incredible... then she got a job... then she got a car... then she started hanging out with ex-football players...

thanks,
-Z

[Michael B]

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005

There are two diametrictly opposed sides here. Let's ignore the 'you might hurt her feelings' if you present one or 'I really do trust her so I don't need one' and the 'UhUh, aint not woman getting half of MY stuff if she doesn't behave'  rethoric for a minute and ask the real question:

What is your pre-nup agreement actually worth? Not the toner it took to print it, if she says through a court appointed intrepreter (that you'll probably wind up paying for as a 'court cost', BTW): "Your honor, he tricked me. He lead me to beleive that this document was part of the normal U.S. marriage requirements (or part of the immigration procedure) and told me that I HAD TO sign it or the judge wouldn't marry us (or INS wouldn't let me stay)".....and she'll probably be able to make that stick unless you provided her with a bilingual lawyer who represented strictly HER interests, and it certainly wouldn't hurt if said lawyer is on her country's consulate office 'approved' list. Who's a judge going to beleive? Some MOB loser or the sweet little thing he took advantage of? I don't mean to imply that as a whole we are 'losers' (remember, I'm in this group also) nor that all the women are pure, sweet and innocent, just asking which way you think a judge will lean.

Those of you who still want one, fine with me, you're not picking my pocket nor breaking my leg, but if you want it done, get it done 'bullet proof'.

[pablo]

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005


BTW, there is a lot of information in the archives on prenups.  A very good thread was found by using the search function, typing in "prenup".  An especially good and interesting thread was started by Zack entitled "Latinas and prenups, dated 12/01/05.

Zack, did you tell your sweety about your desire to do a prenup and how did she respond?

[valuedcustomer]

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005

I got a prenup.  It cost $1500.  But, when the lawyer explained to her that she has rights to nothing, it shook her up emotionally.  The emotional impact is the most difficult part.  But, she is alright now.  You can also do it yourself.  Nolo press has an excellent book with all the prenup templates on a CD and you can put it together yourself get it signed and notorized without lawyers.   This has less of a negative psychological impact.  There is no legal requirement to have a lawyer do a prenup, although the lawyers want you to believe there is.

[pablo]

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by valuedcustomer on May 3, 2005


Has anyone that you know or any poster on the board used the Nolo Press templates?  

The pre-nup also has to be translated into her language, does it not?

[valuedcustomer]

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by pablo on May 3, 2005


When I was investigating this, I found several websites that do certified translation like this one:  http://www.online-languagetranslators.com/spanish.htm.  But, as I mentioned I ended up using a lawyer instead.   However, if you do a translation, which translation serves as the prenup ... the English version or the Spanish version?  This creates ambiguity.  Even a certified legal translator could make mistakes and then you have two documents with two different meanings.  My bilingual lawyer made an English version and then personally explained the meaning of every paragraph to her in Spanish and gave her an opportunity to ask questions on each paragraph making sure she understood the meaning.  This is more effective then a Spanish hardcopy because you have if documented that a fluent Spanish speaker fully explained the entire document to her in person and gave her an opportunity to ask questions and make objections or agree to the terms.  

[doombug]

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005

I pulled the plug after 6 months (prior to her coming to the States, though).  She was too volatile, among other things.  Didn't want to deal with this after she got here, when it'd be much costlier and damaging.

No pre-nup; and I have to wait 2 years before we can sign the divorce papers.  (Per Peruvian law.)

[Heat]

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by doombug on May 3, 2005

Did I hear you right?  You broke up with your girl and have to start over?  Wow dude sorry about that.

The good news is you can start over with out much trouble.

[doombug]

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by Heat on May 3, 2005

Seen how a lot of guys here and elsewhere had novias/esposas who appreciated them more or had better dispositions than mine.  I chose too soon, when I should have followed the advice often given here:  Shop around.

[utopiacowboy]

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005

I am a lawyer and practiced family law for several years during which time I probably handled 500-600 divorces. No pre-nup for me. I would not marry any woman with whom I felt that I needed a pre-nup.

[pablo]

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

[This message has been edited by pablo]

UC,

That's the first I ever heard you were a lawyer.  Traded in the legal spurs for the cowboy spurs I see.  

Now your disclaimer that you sometimes post makes perfect sense:-)

"Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult."

However, your position not to get a pre-nup surprises me somewhat being that you are an attorney.  Does it have to do with trust/love issues, etc. or is it because of the many divorces that you handled?  I would love for you to elaborate on this and also have another authority with an opposing view.

If one did want a pre-nup, where would you recommend a guy look for one?  I know getting one is somewhat more difficult with a foreign spouse.

Gary B. too, any suggestions in this area?

Gracias.

[Gary Bala]

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by pablo on May 3, 2005

Thank you for your question inviting comment from me, Pablo.
I know that you have been a friend so I will make certain comments.
(This will have to be my only public post on this topic however and
I cannot field questions here, but people know how to contact me offline.)

As you know, I have a limited practice in Premarital Agreements for
U.S. gentlemen and Latinas and have done a number of them over
the years.

I prefer not to be drawn into a public debate about the merits or demerits
of "Prenups", more correctly termed state-law "Premarital" or "Antenuptial"
Agreements. In my experience, most guys have pretty fixed and unalterable
views on this topic anyway (they want it or won't marry, or they won't marry
if they feel any need to want it). Some consider a Premarital Agreement
vital, others think they are of little value, except in very limited situations.
Only very few are open to even small, much less radical, shifts in opinion.

Regardless of one's opinion about "prenups", the cold fact is that everyone
already has a "prenup" whether they realize it or not - it is your current state
law rules about property distribution and alimony, spousal support or
maintenance, in case of marriage dissolution.

As for my own view of Premarital Agreements, I subscribe to the conservative
school, it's better to have one - but for the few, not the masses. In other words,
I think that not everybody needs a "prenup". It may however be appropriate for
certain gentlemen in certain couple relationships.

Typically, these are gentlemen who have SUBSTANTIAL needs for
asset and income protection based on their wealth accumulation and
net worth, they are usually men who have been married before once,
twice or more often and gotten "burned", they might have one or more
children from a previous marriage whom they wish to protect financially
in case of a brief new marriage, and men who are concerned about separation
and divorce rates especially in that people and circumstances can often change
over time and who thus prefer to have an "insurance policy".

I believe that a properly drafted Premarital Agreement which complies
with state law and other laws can survive a court challenge, but there is
never a guarantee of course; there are only best efforts to maximize the
probability that it will be successful.  

Premarital Agreements are creatures of your state law and should be carefully
customized to fit a client's situation and needs, if they have any hope to
survive a court challenge. Thus for anyone serious about it, it's always best
to consult an attorney familiar with your particular situation and with the current
requirements and trends of your state law in this area. (I am always astonished
how much misleading and blatantly false information about "prenups" is found
on the Internet.) Another important document which your attorney should be
familiar with is the model law called the "Uniform Premartial Agreement Act"
which has been adopted in many states and is followed by the courts in most
states, even in those which have not yet adopted it formally.

An interesting and unique area as concerns Premarital Agreements with Latinas
or other foreign ladies under visas is how your state law Premarital Agreement
will interact with the minimum financial obligations of the I-134 and I-864
federal Affidavit of Support for immigration. Thus, your state law attorney should
also have a working familiarity with these immigration rules to properly advise you.

As concerns the couple's "trust" issue, I believe that a properly drafted
Premarital Agreement, with language for example memorializing a couple's
love and commitment to each other and expectations for the marriage, can
actually strengthen the relationship and effectively transform a document which
otherwise many initially might view as a "divorce agreement" into just the opposite,
a "marriage agreement" which helps fortify the bonds of a couple's trust.

For more reading on these and other points, see this article on the topic:

http://www.usaimmigrationattorney.com/PremaritalArticleLatina.html

Good luck to all in your "Prenup" and relationship decisions,
GB

[Looking4Wife]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: pre-nups? (Long Comment) , posted by Gary Bala on May 3, 2005

.

[pablo]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: pre-nups? (Long Comment) , posted by Gary Bala on May 3, 2005


Thank you Gary and UC for your replies as they are very much appreciated.  My opinion about "premarital" agreements has changed over the years, certainly not because I have substantial assets, rather crashed and burned, and do have two wonderful children.  

I hope everyone does a copy and paste in their file somewhere.  

Thanks for the link too even if it is to your site.  Only teasing amigo.

[utopiacowboy]

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by pablo on May 3, 2005

Well, Pablo, as an attorney if someone were to ask me for my advice on this matter, I would recommend a pre-nup. A pre-nup probably would have come in handy in many of the divorces that I handled. I guess I'm like George Clooney after he was blinded by love in "Intolerable Cruelty" - just couldn't do a pre-nup for myself and my wife.