Catholicism like Cigarettes-Long

[Onephd]

Let me explain the title. I used to work for a major tobacco manufacturer.  A few years ago (like 10), Cigarette companies decided to concede to the many lawsuits.  The real underlying logic was that the US was a declining market anyway and enough ground had been made in other countries to make up for any lost US sales.  Now I'm not sure if that part was true. Anyway.  

Many people have commented on the new Pope and the future of the Catholic Church.  I'll chime in with my OPINION as well.

IN MY OPINION, The Catholic church is in the same position as tobacco companies were a few years ago. I'm a Catholic and will continue to be, but I do believe that Catholicism has long ago reached its peak and will continue to lose momentum (and members) as time goes on.  Right now, the major concern is just slowing down the decline.  Currently there are about 65 million Catholics in the US and I would venture to imagine that Catholicism looses more followers to other religions than any other faith.  

There are several reasons for this decline.  Most of have heard this one before from our Latina friends.

Hypocrisy- Many people believe that Catholics are big hypocrites since we can sit in church an hour giving praise to God and then walk out and behave in a manner inconsistent the tenants of the faith.  I have to admit that there are something’s that bother me about the faith.  You ever notice that you don't see many if any interracial marriages or relationships between Catholics?  But anyway...

Some more general concerns that people In General have with the Catholic Church are:

The role of Women in the church-Women played an enormous role in helping Jesus spread the word. In fact women financed the entire movement of Jesus, but women have remained in the background to say the least of the Catholic Church. It’s only been in the past 15-20 years that girls were allowed to be Alter Servers (those children the sit up on the alter next to the priest during mass and assist the priest with mass).  Lack of women priest has been a long argued issue in the Church.  Me being a church going person, I can tell you in all the churches that I have attended; I am always the youngest, the only minority, and one of a few men in attendance.   Single men almost never attend Catholic Church.  Some married men do attend with their wives, but I would guess that the majority of people that attend Catholic Church are women and Senior citizen couples.  There needs to a more active role of women in the Catholic Church to help revive the faith.  Additionally, the Catholic Church needs to reach out to young people and minorities.

Scandal- I probably don't need to mention this one but we all know about the scandals with US priest.  IN MY OPINION, that is more cultural and somewhat separated from Catholicism.  I have to say in defense of all the good priest out there, that there are some great priests and enrich young children’s lives and do a lot of good.  When I was an Alter boy, our priest would take us on bike rides and a camping trip once a year.  The significance was that almost all of the alter boys were young black males from the housing projects of the New Orleans (if you don't know about the projects in New Orleans, you better ask somebody!).  None of my friend or fellow alter boys ever saw, mentioned, or experienced anything bad.  Our priest even coached our schools flag football team and basketball team.  OK, enough said on that.  Just know that not all priests are perverts. In fact there are probably no more priest that are child molesters than there are teachers or lawyers, etc. that are child molesters.

Lack of inspiration-We all know that that a Catholic mass is anything but inspiring (in the true literal sense of the word). Catholicism is based on Tradition, and still maintains allegiance to the concept of the people going to church to GIVE praise to God.  Many people now, because of economic hardship, personal problems etc, desire some inspiration of some sort. Many people turn to the Church for this inspiration.  I know of several Catholics that have left the church.  Almost always they cite a need for some type of divine intervention or some type of inspiration from the church.  Thus many go to churches where there are more lively services and the messages from the priest are delivered with more enthusiasm and relating to modern problems that we face day to day.  Personally I am of the belief that I go to church to give thanks and show deference to God and not to "get anything out of it".  I believe my life is a blessing and I have a lot to be thankful for. It doesn't even bother me that many of the people in the Catholic Church are not "good people" as others put it.  I don't go to church to socialize and I don't try to know anyone there. I go, I give thanks and I leave. ha ha.

There are so many religions popping up that there is actually a fierce competition for followers. If I'm not mistaken, the Mormon religion is the fastest growing in the US.  They have aggressive advertising, and that 2 year service commitment is actually very popular and efficient at gathering new members.  There is now even a small, but growing black Mormon population.  It wasn't that long ago that blacks could not join the faith.  But Lavell Edwards (Ex-Football coach) needed faster skilled players for his football teams that put pressure on the school to allow blacks to join the faith as it was becoming difficult if not impossible to recruit blacks for the football team and have them follow all of the Mormon rules but not be able to actually join the faith.  Funny how athletics play in role in so much stuff.  Anybody care to guess how and why the University of Alabama came to the decision to integrate back in the day? (answer, the need for black athletes, I believe it was Bear Bryant having Sam Cunningham run all over them that provoked him to TELL the University President that they needed to accept black athletes.  Ok, I'm off on a tangent again. ha ha

But back to religion.  I don't know if Catholicism is really threatened in SA countries.  I'll tell you why.  As long as the economic conditions remain the same and families are very unidos(for both social and economic reasons), it will hard for children to break away from the age old practice of Catholicism.  As long as children continue to live with their families, it will very difficult for them to break away and go against the relegion of their parents.  As more Latinos become empowered economically and move away from home it will become easier for them to break away and try different religions.  That’s just my honest opinion.  Perhaps it’s stupid, but that’s how I see things in SA.  I think places like Chile, where the economic conditions are better are more vulnerable to other religions having success.

Anyway, I think most people are correct that one of the reasons the pope was chosen was in order to avoid having another 26 year term.  I also heard someone on television say that Catholics would probably never have a US born Pope. Reason being Americans don’t speak more than one language(surprise,surprise) and the US is a superpower and the Catholic church wouldn’t want political stuff interfering or affecting the decisions of the Pope.  

Again, this was nothing more than my opinion and its not intended to offend anyone and I’m certainly not trying argue a point here.

Anyway, back to the women.

[jim c]

... in response to Catholicism like Cigarettes-Long, posted by Onephd on Apr 20, 2005


   There are many opinions on Catholicism. Probably the most confusing are from undereducated Catholics. Catholicism is a mystic relegion. If you listened closely during the recent interviews, clergy  commented that the holy spirit guided their cardinals to their choices. There is very little that is social about catholicism, except that american catholics continue to try to make it conform with our social and political beliefs, rather than conform to its teachings. The church is not a democracy it is a two thousand year old belief system built on submission and the belief that its doctrines are inspired by the holy spirit through the pope.  The basis of islam is the same submission to the teachings of Mohamed. The jews follow the torah which is their contract with god.

It seems that everyone has an  opinion on how the church should reflect the will of the people   This brings to mind an interview of a "Catholic" woman who said she was disappointed in the results of the " election " regarding womens rights birth control etc. She was asked what she would do. She responded she would follow the rules she liked and ignore the rest. Catholic? in her mind maybe.

The new pope has often been called God's rotweiller. He was responsible for clarifying the rules and re educating clergy that strayed fron traditions and teachings. This is not a new problem for the church, remember the Protestant Reformation. One of the clergy when asked what the direction of the church may be under the new pope said it might become a smaller more united and stronger religion.

  There is a difference between being born a catholic and following its beliefs. Well its been around for two thousand years they must be doing something right whether you agree with its teachings or not.jimc

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Catholicism like Cigarettes-Long, posted by jim c on Apr 21, 2005

Very good points Jim, especially about the confused opinions of undereducated Catholics. I think a good example is Pete’s lack of knowledge of what the Catholic Church is all about. He obviously has some issues with the Church, which is fine, but some of the stuff he is putting out is just nonsense.

Everyone certainly has a right to their opinion on religion and Catholicism, but insulting others’ religion on a public forum is not very smart IMHO.

Peace,

Ray

[Cali James]

... in response to Re: Re: Catholicism, posted by Ray on Apr 21, 2005

[This message has been edited by Cali James]

Pete's a good friend of mine.  We've had similar discussions over the years and nothing he's ever said about Catholicism has particularly bothered me.  Pete makes bold statements but he isn't doing it to offend, he's just giving his opinion.

But one of these days I'm going to turn the table on Pete. (-:  Maybe we should talk about his idea that Jesus didn't make many of the statements that are attributed to him in the new testament.  I'm not sure how a person would know which one's are false statements and which one's are true but my suspicion is that people create Jesus into their own liking.  It kind of reminds me of the "Jesus Seminar", a group of liberal second rate scholars and activists, who actually vote on which scripture passages were said by Jesus and which were made up by the early church.  They've reduced Jesus sayings down to less than 20% of what is attributed to him. The "Our Father" begins and ends with "Our Father". lol They start with an assumption that the gospels could not be historically accurate because they speak of things that simply could not happen, for example the miracle of the loaves. This leads them to the elimination of most of Jesus's sayings.

[Pete E]

... in response to Catholicism like Cigarettes-Long, posted by Onephd on Apr 20, 2005

Im love it.The Mormons wanted to win a few football games so they decided to let blacks in?I never heard that before but whatever works and of course they had to open it up.Were they going to reject all the South Americans with some black heritage?All three of my girlfriends I have had here have some african heritage.My number one girl just told me the other day her father,who died when she was 5 ,was black.Her favorite memory of him is him buying her some shoes.She is Tregeno colored skin,medium.No partucular Black features,even has freckles.I wish she had picked up a little more of the lips and butt.I presume the father was not 100 % black or the kids would have more of the influence.Sorry,a tangent here.But any church that wants ethnic purity better go someplace else.
About tradition.I also was an alter boy.To this day I absolutely hate any sort of ceremony.I don't have all the answers about god and religion,but I am pretty sure  that CEREMONY has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING  to do with it.Makes them look like a bunch of stupid old fools to me.
And raised as a catholic I was never encouraged to read the bible or form any independent opinion about anything.I was quizing my girlfriend about the time the pope died.She claims to be catholic,never goes to church,pretty typical of most the Colombians I have met.I asked her if she knew that Jesus had siblings.No.No idea.Just like I didn't untill I was an adult.Along with the virgin birth the Catholic church seems to want to deny Jesus was human and play up the god part.Right in the bible,when they went to retrieve the body of Jesus,one person was John the brother of Jesus.
I will say also that I knew several priests as a kid,all were very good persons.One,the most hard nosed of the bunch,did get a married woman pregnant.I always wondered how he rationalized that.Probably just admitting his human weakness.Too bad one of the greastest things in life has to be considered a sin for all but the married by the church.
To me its amazing how seriously the Catholic church takes its own conjectures.They think up all this stuff then message it to death,like religion is some intellectual pursuit where the will of god can be decifered.Their thought on the nature of the universe show how absolutely wrong they can get it with this method.People were burned at the stake over a difference of opinion.People with the correct opinion.The Catholic church is  basically are about as clueless as everybody else,but worse because they get stuck in their own nonsense.
Be carefull with anybody who tells you they know the will of god or want you to subordinate your reason to some authority they have created.My theory,when Moses went up the mountain he  took a hammer and chisel.He wrote  those commandments.Maybe devinely inspred,maybe not,but for sure touched by the very fallable hand of man.

Pete

[Cali James]

... in response to Re: Catholicism like Cigarettes-Long, posted by Pete E on Apr 20, 2005

[This message has been edited by Cali James]

"People were burned at the stake over a difference of opinion.People with the correct opinion."

Pete, you think that it was just the Catholics burning people?  Once the reformers (Luther, Calvin, Beza, Henry VIII etc) had the power to persecute, they did so themselves.  Has anyone ever heard of a Protestant Inquisition? I doubt it but any scholar of Christian history will tell you that the protestants killed thousands of Catholics and others who they considered heretical.  In Protestant Lutheran Germany, it is estimated 100,000 people were burned, in England between 30,000 and 75,000 depending upon whose account you believe.  What is ironic to me, is that the reformation was built on an idea that the individual can come to know the truth by himself through the Bible and that it should be a private matter.  However once the reformers were in power, they were willing to impose THEIR view (so much for private matter) of God on the population with the same if not greater ferocity as had the Catholics.

Anyway, I think Catholics and Protestants of today would all agree that this was a bad time in Christian history.  Not to make excuses, but it should also be remembered in the context of those times.  A time when obedience to authority was enforced by almost all political and religious institutions and considered essential for the  survival of society.

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Catholicism like Cigarettes-Long, posted by Cali James on Apr 20, 2005

James,
I'm sure you are right,I was just poining to an authoritarian structure that is FAR from infalable,then and now,even though lots of things are no longer acceptable because society will no longer tolerate them.
AND,at least the catholics and most of the rest of the world are  WAY ahead of the muslims who seem to be living several hundred years in the past,thinking god wants them to kill those who disagree.
Anyone who thinks the world is going to hell has no understanding of history.Hell is where we came from.There was never a better time to live on this earth than now.People who worry about things like global warming just prove the point,they are down to being  concerned about something that does not effect them now and might be nothing other than a normal cycle of planet tempuratures.Thats a rich mans concern.Poor people are concerned about their next meal.Not to say its not important to consider such things,but it shows how much we have the more relevant stuff taken care of.
AND,I suspect all those other awfull thingsare3 not heard of so much because they were drawfed in scale by what the catholics did.Yup.I remember a nun telling us about saint Joan of Arc being burned at the stake.I'm sure she would have denied the catholics ever did anything like that.
I purposely did not vist the exhibition of the machines of torture used by the catholic church in Cartagena up to 181 years ago.I don't want to know the details,my immagination is good enough.And I would be even more pissed off at them if I saw it.And Cardinal Law should be behind bars,not participating in the Popes funeral.But then tricky dick should have gotten the same fate,and maybe lying Bill.Seems justice is for the little guys sometimes.

Pete

[OkieMan]

... in response to Re: Re: Catholicism like Cigarettes-Long, posted by Cali James on Apr 20, 2005

CaliJames,

Both you and Pete point out the flaws of both Catholocism and Protestantism-- and all the other isms.  I am a Christian, and I believe the Bible.  But, unfortunately, mankind has raped, tortured and murdered millions of people in the name of religion.  As a Christian, I am firmly convinced that Jesus never intended for any of us to treat our fellow man in this shameful manner.  By the way, I will try to make another point on this.  My feelings are that we should never put the organization or denomination in front of a heart felt relationship with God.  To put it another way,  it is about relationship, and not about religion.  Religion is often the way that Pete described it -- based on ceremony and tradition.  Remember, the people that had Jesus crucified were the religious leaders of their day.  I am not trying to say anything negative about the Jews either.  Yes, they made their mistakes, but I am referring to the very attitudes that Onephd, Pete and you were all referring to.  It is very sad when people from anywhere on this planet try to kill or otherwise harm someone else because they do not believe the way they do.  Jesus spoke about love, agape love.  That is a perfect love that only He can teach us.  Sadly, we are all flawed, and make mistakes.  But, whether we are Protestant, Catholic or Jew; we must look deep inside ourselves and see that we are incapable of cleaning up ourselves.  Only God can do that!  That's my little sermon for the day. ha  This has been an enjoyable discussion.
                      OkieMan

[valuedcustomer]

... in response to Re: Catholicism like Cigarettes-Long, posted by Pete E on Apr 20, 2005

The Mormons are strong in Colombia... they have a temple in Bogota and my wife was a member when she was young in Santa Marta.  My wife’s close friend joined an evangelical church... and several months later would have nothing to do with my wife which brings up the basic problem with protestant sects... they all believe they are the chosen people... and those outside are wicked and evil ... including other protestant sects... and association with outsiders is discouraged unless you are actively proselytizing them.  In other words, they are not much different then Fundamentalist Islam in attitude.  Catholicism is old and dying... but Latin American culture is Catholic culture... so expect the new protestant latins to become indistinguishable from gringos.

[OkieMan]

... in response to Re: Re: Catholicism like Cigarettes-Long, posted by valuedcustomer on Apr 20, 2005

Just remember that the Mormon church is a sect; not mainstream Christianity.  I don't mean to say anything bad about others; but they have many strange beliefs.  Having said that, they are notorious for shunning people who do not agree with them.  If a family member leaves the Mormon Church they are ostrisized (?)  But, no matter who is at fault, it is very sad to see people persecute others for their faith.  True Christians, who practice true Christianity (not just being religious), have a much better chance of winning someone to the Lord by showing love to their fellow man.  It's love, not hate that will prevail!
                      OkieMan

[Onephd]

... in response to Re: Catholicism like Cigarettes-Long, posted by Pete E on Apr 20, 2005

Hey I don't know what the Mormons had in mind with SA or people with Black in their blood, but I can tell you I read and saw the story about the black football players at BYU rebelling a while back when Lavell Edwards was the coach and BYU was decent in football. This was also during the time when teams were really throwing the ball a lot and teams needed faster defensive backs. Granted the entire thing reeks of classic stereotypes about both blacks and whites and athletics, but none the less it happened.  

Also I don't know why this is, but being Black in SA is not considered the same as Black in the USA.  So it doesn't surprise me that the church would welcome with open arms Latinos, but not African Americans. I know that sounds like I'm crying but it’s the truth in my eyes. But hey I really don't want to get into race and all that stuff so I'll leave it at that.  

As for the Bible thing, you’re right, and I forgot to mention that.  That is a classic joke among Catholics that we don't know the bible.  

As for the priest getting a married woman knocked up. It happens, but guess what, it happens to all types of men.  How many pastors and deacons are fooling around with the single women in their church?  It’s not a Catholic thing, it’s a man thing. ha ha ha. But because the Catholic church stresses abstience and such,it creates bigger waves in the public eye.

I’m not arguing here just talking

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Catholicism like Cigarettes-Long, posted by Onephd on Apr 20, 2005

There are stereotypes and then true stereotypes.Those black proffesional football players?They are there because they are the best athletes the team could get.When they were not there,that was discrimination.Things like what position they can play also nonsense.Because they were such good runners they got overlooked for positions like quarterback.Plus that was probably the coaches kid's position.Or the kid of some influential person.The only positions with many white guys any more,offensive line.Here big clydesdale types that can't run can still do well.
South America just has SEVERAL HUNDERED YEARS more of racial mixing going on.History after the spanish arrived and blacks brought over about 500 years.And so many people were considered lower class there was less stigma against inter marriage.People just trying to survive were not so upidy about it.So now much of the population is of mixed race.Indigenous,Black and spanish.The upper class does SEEM to be less mixed,more spanish.

Pete

[Avispa]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Catholicism like Cigarettes-..., posted by Pete E on Apr 20, 2005

In my opinion the number one thing the Catholic Church needs to do is allow married people to become priests, men and women. It widens the talent pool. Right now they can't recruit sufficient numbers of young men who will pay lip service to the celibacy vow. The way it is set up now is a natural magnet for gays.

This issue is mentioned in the Bible. Paul said that priests should limit themselves to one wife, as opposed to the common custom of polygamy at that time. No where in the Bible does it say priests should not marry.

[OkieMan]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Catholicism like Cigaret..., posted by Avispa on Apr 20, 2005

You are absolutely correct.  The New Testament pattern that the apostles laid out encouraged strong families, in the ministry, as well as the lay people.  And remember that there was not denomination in the New Testament, 1st Century church-- Catholic or otherwise!  Everything was new, and most of the first believers were Jews.  The mass evangelism of the Gentiles (non-Jews) started with the apostle Paul.  Even though Peter did witness to Cornelieus and his family first, it was Paul who was sent out along with Silas, part of the time, and Barnabus the rest of the time.  They spread the Gospel throughout the known world of that day.  What a wonderful heritage and legacy for the Christian believers!  Unfortunately, after the passage of time, the power brokers and beaurocrats took over and perverted the true teachings of the Bible.  So, the moral of the story is -- read your Bible!  Know what it says for yourselves and your families.  That way, nobody can tell you something and you get sucks into something that is not the truth!  (My two-cents)

                              OkieMan

[Cali James]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Catholicism like Cig..., posted by OkieMan on Apr 20, 2005

[This message has been edited by Cali James]

"Unfortunately, after the passage of time, the power brokers and beaurocrats took over and perverted the true teachings of the Bible."

Not to start a big debate, but the early Christians weren't reading their new testamant bible and attending bible studies as I think some people think.  The teahings of Jesus were for the most part being passed among communities orally.  The new testamant that we know today is a collection of early Christian writing that ocurred after Jesus's death.  It is by no means a complete list of early Christian writing, there were many others as well. By the second half of the 2nd century, we begin to see signs of the early Christians putting writings together and considering whether they were inspired or whether they were not.  St. Irenaeus was the first I believe to compile a list and exclude others.  Over time other writings were added to the new testamant canon but these things were decided within the context of the Church.  It wasn't until the fourth century that the Church had compiled the 27 books we have today.