More about human trafficking in Colombia

[DavidMN]

Using a popular soap opera to get the message across is pretty creative.

www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4893363,00.html

[Pete E]

... in response to More about human trafficking in Colombia, posted by DavidMN on Mar 26, 2005

"Human Trafficing"
Sounds like something anybody should be against.I certainly am,as long we are talking about people being used AGAINST THEIR WILL,which is in my opinion,rarely  the case.
I am open to hearing about any stories of people being drugged ect.But I will bet there are 100 girls that just decided to go for the  $$$ for every case of some kind of force.
Prostitution is quite accepted here.If not for society at large at least the girls involved don't seem to think much of it and can seem pretty normal,not unlike some party girl who doesn't take direct cash.
SO,if she decides the pay is better in Panama,Costa Rica or Spain,what the hell? Whats the difference?
I have a problem with prostitutes being viewed as victims.I have met alot of them,mostly not for my personal use.Quite a few last week,some guys staying here are in to it.My impression that its a choice was reinforced with every one of them.Even if they could get a job,and most good looking women could,they don't want to work the long hard hours for little pay that most women do.Think about it.One trick,maybe an hour pays equal to a 50 or 60 hour week of real work.Its real hard for them to go back to the real hard life,work.
The best hours for viewing really hot girls at Chipi Chapi seems to be mid day mid week.You see these girls wondering around,even buying stuff in upscale stores.Some have a well to do Colombian or gringo.LOTS OF THEM are hookers on their time off.I saw one girl I know is,a favorite of a friend.She was walking around looking good,8 year old kid in tow.
SO for me,I wish they would not lump general prostitution together with human trafficing.That implies agaist their will.I am very much agaisnst any sort of abuse.Most prostitution is anything but.
OK,a story,showing how the moralists have it dead wrong.
In San Jose a few years ago they busted a casa.These girls were from China.They made a deal to work basically free for one year to pay their way here.About ten months in to that,when they were just about to get to the real money they got in to it for,they were SAVED and sent back home.DUH,DUH,DUH.Back home ,they place they made this deal to escape.Now they get to start all over,thanks to some REDICULOUS  do gooders.

Pete

[Cali James]

... in response to Victim or free choice , posted by Pete E on Mar 26, 2005

[This message has been edited by Cali James]

In most cases, I imagine that prostitution is as a you say Pete, a free choice.  Nevertheless, the choices that we make in our life, free or not, have consequences and affects that play out over our whole life.  I seriously doubt that sex for money relationships are a net positive for those who engage in them, most particularly the women.   I'm sure there are many who think that no harm is done, noone gets hurt.  But I'm not at all convinced this is the case.  If you compare the prostitutes with the general population, I would suspect that prostitutes are more likely to have serious problems. Is this just a coincidence? I don't think so.  The world of prostitution isn't a particularly healthy one.  If a person gets involved with unhealthy people, they themself are likely to become unhealthy.

At a more fundamental level, I think it's a mistake for people to think that sex can be seperated from love (i.e. just a transaction) without there being affects to a person's psyche or dignity.  The prostitute who has sex with 10 or 20 guys a week, how does it affect her view of sex, of love and of men?  How does it over time change her view of life and of herself?  And what about the guys who engage in prostitution, might it not affect their psyche too?  If a guy is visiting a different prostitute every week, is he as prepared to enter a relationship based on love (as opposed to money) then if he hadn't been?  

I don't think prostitution should be criminalized however I think whatever positives come from it (if there are any) are more than made up by the damage it does to peoples lives and families.

[Pete E]

... in response to Victim or free choice , posted by Cali James on Mar 27, 2005

James,
I hear you,but watching these guys leaves me thinking there is nothing wrong with it.I think both have been through costly divorces and don't seem to have any desire to hook up with anybody permanent.They are just having fun and they are kind of fun to watch.These guys are happy campers,not desperate or lonely.
Somewhere we got it hooked up that sex means relationship and commitment but that is just one choice,not the way it has to be.Will they change their mind and get in to a relationship?Maybe after they get this out of their system if the right type woman comes along,not a very converntional one I don't think.Maybe not.Maybe marriage is a been there done that for them.Seems like it right now.
As far as the girls,I think there is a big difference between hookers here and in the US.In the US,where its not so difficult to make a living if you have your act together there are alot of women on drugs in to prostitution.Here I think its considered away to make a living.If the girl can get past the more limited social stigma here it can be a good job.Short hours,good money.
And I think there is even a bit of an ego thing to it,hey I am hot,these guys will pay big bucks for me.Big buck to the girl.Pretty affordable for the guys.Yeah there can be downsides,bad people to deal with.Maybe that or just the good pay is why they seem so happy to hook up with these guys.
One girl ,I don't know how they found her,said she had never done it before.School teacher I think.She said she would need a  strong drink.But the guy is a very nice and fujn guy,she had fun with it,really got in to it,probably not as bad as she had immagined.She was supposed to be back with some other girl but I don't think she has been back yet.I didn't see her.
As far as where the girl goes from here,that might be tougher.But as long as she looks good its good money.Maybe she will save some.Or find a guy,its possible.Ex prostitute with money might be a catch for someone here.
My oppinion about this is much more liberal than it was before because I don't see any losers in the deal from the ones I have observed.

Pete

[OkieMan]

... in response to Victim or free choice , posted by Cali James on Mar 27, 2005

CaliJames,

I agree with your post.  I looked up your profile info.  You are married to a calena?  How is it going for you?  Do you have any children together?  Did she have children from an earlier marriage or relationship?  Your profile says that you are 43, so you are a mature aged man.  I am 51, and I do not want to play games either. Since this is just a message board, I will not make any large, definitive statements about prostitution here.  However, if you wish to talk further, please feel free to email me.

                         OkieMan

[Pete E]

... in response to Victim or free choice , posted by Pete E on Mar 26, 2005

2 guys staying here have these 2 hookers come over.My other friend staying here,pursuing relationships as I do said "What did they look like?"  I said they looked like about 100,000 pesos.
These girls are opportunists,not victims.Think of it as a little slice of capitalism.I have not seen one sad victim acting hooker.Most seem to even have a good time with it.
A mutually beneficial relationship is my opinion.The guys are good guys,in their 50's,just not finding anything like this at home,so loading up while  they are here.
After  a costly divorce "if it flys floats or f--ks your better off renting it" can make sense.
I personally find it leaves me a little cold.I like some affection with my sex.And some comraderie.But I will do it when I don't have a relationship,but that hasn't been the case for 7 months or so

Pete

[Michael B]

... in response to Story, posted by Pete E on Mar 26, 2005

I'm staying at your house too (well, not me personally, I'm still in Texas, but a hypothetical 'somebody'). I'm on a 'one woman, she could be the one, WIFE hunting trip', with a woman I've been corresponding with for a long time, NOT a mongering trip. I've given her the address of where I'm staying and she's coming over (with her mother, no less, just to thicken the plot) in a cab to pick me up to go shopping or whatever. She and her mother run in to your other two guests' 'friends', who are shall we say, rather obvious about what their profession is...now, my girl thinks that's why I'M staying at your place too, and a falling out ensues......Now, since I had no idea you ran 'that kind of place', I blame YOU for causing the problem in MY relationship....even if the lady and I patch things up, YOU have put me through a lot of grief and problems. At the very least, I'm not going to pay you and if you try to trash me on the boards ala 'That &^%$ Michael B. tried to beat me out of a week's rent'.....well, things could get ugly.

Not ME personally, you understand, I'm already married....but a hypithetical somebody is going to get really mad at you one day. For your own protection, you need to institute a house rule of: 'Don't care what you do, don't care who you do, but drugs and whoring you AIN'T gonna do HERE'.

[soltero]

... in response to Potential problem, posted by Michael B on Mar 26, 2005

I am the other guy staying with Pete, and although I don't post here that much anymore mainly because the views here are pretty limited in my opinion, I can say that my Novia comes here everyday and she knows what's going on. We have discussed Floras Frescas and the Casas because I am very interested in her opinion on many things, and her opinion of those places and the women that work there is less than low, but she lives here, and she knows that it exists, and she is not one to force her opinion on others which is one of the reasons I like her so much. I met the girls that the guys brought over, and they were very nice people. If you didn't already know that there was money involved, you would think they were just their girlfriends. I, and my Novia have conversed with them, and when they come through, we all chat, laugh, and do what I guess you would call "normal" people do. I don't know what mental picture you might have of what's going on here, but being a first hand observer, I can tell you that if you didn't know that money was being exchanged, you wouldn't. I would be very happy to go out with them and their "girls" anywhere, because the girls are very friendly and appear to be "good" people regardless of their profession. I take offense to your offense because you are placing your judgements and views on people and situations that you have no knowledge of. Prejudging people and situations sans experience is one of the greatest of ignorances, IMHO.

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Potential problem, posted by soltero on Mar 28, 2005

You mistake a judgemental attitude with the well meant and no malice intended advice of 'Don't let some guests do stuff that can cause problems for the other guests (or the host)'--a common sense guide for any kind of guest house, which was meant in a friendly 'here's something you might want to be careful of' manner, NOT a 'judgemental' nor 'accusitory' manner.

[Heat]

... in response to Potential problem, posted by Michael B on Mar 26, 2005

First off stop dreaming up problems.  We have enough of our own issues to deal with.

Next don't think all X Agents think drugs are bad.  I think Marijuana should be legal.  I'm very libertarian.

I did it because it paid almost as much as being a lawyer and I got a pension in 20 years. I did it for the money.

Lastly, like your mom taught you.  Keep to your own business before your business becomes our business.

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Potential problem could be with you., posted by Heat on Mar 27, 2005

My business becomes your business? What is that suppossed to mean? If you mean do I use drugs or (see list in post below) the answer is no, so no sense making veiled threats your over paid 'associates' will come and bust down my door. I merely pointed out to Pete that he ought to lay down some rules to his guests. Maybe if I had told him to say "Can't stay here unless you brush your teeth twice a day" instead of "Don't do stuff that will anger my other customers and possibly get all of us in trouble" then you and Jim wouldn't have such a problem.

OK, now---before it gets out of hand, thread closed, as far as I'm concerned. Get back to using that pension and free time looking for a nice latina lady---both of you, and good luck in the quest. (I've already got mine, thank you).

[Heat]

... in response to Re: Re: Potential problem could be with ..., posted by Michael B on Mar 27, 2005

Dude where do you get this stuff.  What I said was mind your own business.  No harm, no foul.

[jim c]

... in response to Potential problem, posted by Michael B on Mar 26, 2005

How did drugs get into this?  You certainly have a vivid imagination. I was at Petes house when another guest had a girl come over to go out with him. She was very attractive and well dressed. She was a hooker, but I would not have known if no one had told me. She did not show up with hot pants and high heels. She had her hair in a bun and was very elegant. I am a retired Narcotics sergeant and Heat was DEA and Customs, so lets avoid intimating that Petes house could be viewed as  a den of drugs and prostitution. He doesn't have to defend the morality of his guests tastes. There are no naked 14 year olds running around the house. Even so some here  wouldn't know a hooker even if they paid her. So lets avoid hypothetical insinuations and deal with the facts. What we do in our own beds is our business.I know you didn't say it, but you brought it up and Pete is over sixty and learned to read between the lines a long time ago. I havent heard of anyone hesitating to bring their wife or girl friend to his house in the past. So have some macaroni and chese and go back to watching the disney channel. Have a nice day. JIM C

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Potential problem, posted by jim c on Mar 26, 2005

Whoa, guess your 'Narc Instincts' made you see red and think I was making a false accusation...not the case. I have no evidence that Pete does drugs, not even any suspicions or inuendo of it. I doubt that Pete does drugs, neither as a user, a seller, a procurer, a 'contact', a 'connection', an 'enabler', nor as a provider of facilities, equipment, paraphanelia(sp?), site or location. I wasn't infering that he did--how's that? Clear enough for you? Did I leave any necessary terms out?

But since neither you nor I nor Pete know who or what kind of people his future guests are going to be, it's a good idea that he lets them know up front that they aren't going to do drugs in his house....just common sense, to keep people like you and Heat from breaking down his door and messing up the place.

As for the prostitutes, read Pete's post, he already agreed with me that it was a good point, that it isn't a good idea to mix them and a novia's family, that he had forbidden them at the place when he hosted a wedding and that one of his own girlfriends had already objected to them. Unless you're going to call Pete a liar, those ARE the facts. And hey, just because YOU can't tell a pro when you see one, doesn't mean that a native born and raised person can't, especially when that person has a vested interest in not having her suitor involved with them.

Now, like you, I don't CARE if people use prostitutes, and, unlike you, I don't care if they use drugs either. I just don't want them doing either in a scenario that would cause somebody that I was trying to make a favorable impression on think that I was in on it too. And I thought I'd be nice enough to point out to Pete that it could be bad for the 'family trade' business to have prostitutes (and druggies) hanging around.

[jim c]

... in response to Re: Re: Potential problem, posted by Michael B on Mar 27, 2005

GEE MIKEY

  Thanks for the absence of malice response. I am sure you meant no veiled insinuation about Petes party house, as I am sure you can't wait to get offline to return to your new wife and the Macaroni and cheese.  I agree with heat in the concept of your own business, and further it by saying, if you have not been to the house don't forge an opinion and give advice based on it.

    The word drug entered based on your statement.

If I were to say to you," you should not let your Latin relatives use drugs in your house" what is insinuated. I know Pete fairly well and his response was as predictable as mine based on the difference in our personalities.  I assure you there is no need for your reccommendation of house rules. The people who stay there are adult and actually are a lot of the people who post here.

As you suggested I may not be able to recognized a hooker when I see one, but I can smell bull-hit a mile away. Of course, maybe I have not had enough experience with hookers. So maybe you can get a job as a doorman for Pete to preserve the family trade perception. I know you have his best interests at heart and only want to help.

PS I am sure your relatives are not using drugs in your house, but you know,  you are responsible for what happens there. Keep it clean JIMC