Denied- Lesson Learned the hard way

[Fosgate5]

So I've been on this forum for about 4 years now. I did my research, looked out for the traps, scammers and vetted my current fiance pretty hard for the first two months ( and she did the same to me to make sure I wasn't playing her or some human trafficker) and still had my head on a swivel even past when I proposed to her April of 2017. Took a couple months to decide if I wanted to do a K-1 or go get married and do a CR-1. You always think you know someone, but as a lesson learned from my ex-bag-o-guts, there can always be a surprise waiting to be opened. So my fear was as some have mentioned of getting married and found out they were previously married and the chance of getting it annulled was the chance of hitting a $500m Powerball. K-1 seemed so easy, I saw one person post 95% approval rate coming through the Manila Embassy, "they are people too" and understanding and will often get back to you with paperwork you may need. Another thought was about looking at the people on 90 day Fiance, if some of the people that make it through onto that show we have to be a shoe in. Paperwork didn't look so bad, me being in the insurance industry deciphering policy ,writing legal documents, history of doing paperwork in the military and complex paperwork for the ATF. I got this I'm thinking. I worked through the lists, found all the docs and process I needed. Got my Petition approved in February and Embassy Interview on May 15th. I was totally confident and so was she as she downsized her possessions to a suitcase and a carry on. Waiting for the word that she got it, turn in her two weeks notice, attender her "Beware of human trafficker dirty american boyfriend" Class and board a plane. That's what we thought.

Instead, I get a message. She was denied. I was in shock. For what? She sent me a photo of the document she got. All it had checked, "X-It was not established that the beneficiary and petitioner have a bona fide relationship." As in Bona Fide (Sincerly, without intent to deceive) and the consulate officer just signes off "R.O."  I'm going back through what all I sent, Chat logs from Facebook from 2015 and 2017 after we got engaged. Photos from our trip to Coron and Bohol together, photos of her ring with reaction of our friends, receipts from restaurants together, plane and hotel reservation and receipts. The only thing I did not have from the list of suggestions was photos of me with her family. For good reason, her father died a few years back and the family live on Mindanao which is not recommended for travel per advise from the U.S. Embassy. Looking back I should have maybe written a letter in basically love letter form of how we met, how we vetted each other, described our love for each other and put the reason for no family photos. I figured, they didn't ask for it in the documents so if they want it, they'll ask for it or I can talk to them.

I was totally wrong. Denied, no letter has gotten back but it's not good. I wrote that letter and emailed it to the Embassy Visa Section asking for a Consulate Supervisor to please review our case for reconsideration. I contacted my Congressman and forwarded info to a case worker there to contact a supervisor there. I doubt they can do much but it's worth a try. I called the embassy last night and felt so angry after I got off the phone. Spoke to a nice woman named Mary. The general rule is there is a yellow document like we got and a white document like we got. Both look identical but one of them asks for additional information and the other is not...it is just a simple denial. But I am welcome to reapply again as if it's as simple as ordering a pair of shoes. Or I could "simply get married there to satisfy the bona fide relationship...." I was dumbfounded and pissed.

So basically now is wait for the letter and see if by some strange chance that a supervisor actually reviews it before they close it. Once it is closed its a done deal. I'm not going to pay $630 non refundable to appeal it and wait more than a year. I'll simply move forward with going there again, get married and bring her back on the CR-1. Only this time I'm retaining an Immigration Lawyer. This time I'm sure I'll be on their radar and under a scope.

My opinion on the K-1 is this. Just as we form an opinion when we see photos of couples, shows etc and have our own prejudices and beliefs so do the consulates. I work in the world of insurance claims and I quickly form personal opinions of people who try to inflate or falsify their claims through deception and I watch adjusters fall into the trap of trying to become a wall of justice so to speak of right an wrong without solid proof but they are acting on their belief. They are held to a high level of accountability for their mistakes and their actions in "bad faith." and paid on their performance of not trying to pinch pennies, but overall how they work with insureds, agents and the company to pay what is owed and act on the insureds behalf if ambiguous and they would reasonably expect insurance to pay. What standards are the consulates held to? They don't get paid for performance, they can't easily be fired as a govt employee so fear of job loss really doesn't pertain to them. So what is their motivation? It's all personal for them and that's why with nearly every govt agency you get these people who could really give 2 chits about you. I don't know if this guy had a case of the Mondays and being the first 7:30 am interview or what, but we put ourselves at the opinion, prejudices and discretion of an individual that ultimately refused us.

I should have known better that the nature of working with govt employees has not changed one iota and if you have a problem they toss you into redundant cleansed, boxed answers and direct you to absurd bureaucratic process and paperwork. You break it down barney style and they will just find a dumber dinosaur to complicate the issue. That process was the waste of over a grand aside from all the anguish we have gone through the last couple days not to mention most importantly 9 months. My advise is not to do the CR-1 route like people often mention here "Because it's easier." Do it because your not subjecting yourself as easily to the sole discretion of one dip [snip] that may have had a bad day and just feels like reciprocating it to you or doesn't like how you look or she looks or how she looks at them in and interview etc. Lawyer up as well...as much as I hate those blood suckers. I think ultimately if you want to save a lot of headache start with one to get a first time pass.

Oh, and R.O. if your reading this. I hope your wife is pulling a train with 3 GI's while your at work.

[Elexpatriado]

Really Sorry to hear that.Doesnt seem fair at all.
 
Maybe you should have married a Colombiana. The Bogota US embassy is letting in all the obvious scammers who intend to work illegally as  as strippers and the like, or to scam some American into marrying them for a Green Card (Know of several cases personally).
 
Trumps people must have infiltrated the Manila Embassy already.
 
Another reason to move overseas and not bring a woman back to your home country.
 
Women are enough stress already without having to worry about all that bureaucaratic political crap.

[Ray]

Unless they agree to reopen your case, looks like your best option is the CR-1. But even then there is still a chance for denial if you get some butt-head visa interviewer.

If you plan ahead, you should be able to have a simple civil ceremony on a two week trip.

But of course you will need to wait another 9-12 months probably after the wedding.

I generally don't agree that a lawyer is necessary, but in your case it may be a wise choice. Find an immigration attorney who is a member of AILA.

Good luck!

Ray

[robert angel]

To deny even in part, because a US Citizen did not dare visit the ARMM region (Autonomous Region of Muslim Mindanao) of Mindanao, is just awful. I know that most sensible NATIVE, non Muslim Filipinos dare not visit there. And that's where Fos's fiance and family lives. Yes, some wonderful Christians somehow manage to live and work there, but again, few non Muslims from within the Philippines dare to go there. They know they're not welcome. It's a damn case of hypocrisy, IMO.

USA govt's own site on the subject:

The Department of State warns U.S. citizens to avoid all non-essential travel to the city of Marawi, Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago including the southern Sulu Sea, and to exercise extreme caution when traveling to other regions of Mindanao, due to terrorist threats, insurgent activities, and kidnappings.  Similar threats also occurred throughout the Philippines in 2017.  This replaces the Travel Warning dated December 20, 2016.

There is a threat of kidnappings-for-ransom of foreigners, including U.S. citizens, from terrorist and insurgent groups based in the Sulu Archipelago and in the southern Sulu Sea area.  This area stretches from the southern tip of Palawan, along the coast of eastern Sabah, Malaysia and the islands of the Sulu Archipelago, up to Zamboanga City, Mindanao.  The U.S. Embassy requires U.S. government personnel to obtain special authorization before traveling to Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago."

https://ph.usembassy.gov/security-message-u-s-citizens-security-message-u-s-citizens/

[robert angel]

 
Maybe you should have married a Colombiana. The Bogota US embassy is letting in all the obvious scammers who intend to work illegally as  as strippers and the like, or to scam some American into marrying them for a Green Card (Know of several cases personally).
 
Women are enough stress already without having to worry about all that bureaucaratic political crap.

Well, he's only got four years of his life invested in vetting and really getting to know this woman. I'm sure as you again describe Colombianas, it's soooo appealing to Fos that he's gonna drop her cold and be on the next jet to Medellin, sniffing up some pole dancer to bring home to Mom.

Thanks in advance for another one your astute and valuable contributions.

[Calipro]

Well, he's only got four years of his life invested in vetting and really getting to know this woman. I'm sure as you again describe Colombianas, it's soooo appealing to Fos that he's gonna drop her cold and be on the next jet to Medellin, sniffing up some pole dancer to bring home to Mom.

Thanks in advance for another one your astute and valuable contributions.

Expat is simply trying to add value to the board based on his own anecdotal life experiences and those of his friends.


I wouldn't be so hard on him.

[Wildstubby]

Calipro said:

Expat is simply trying to add value to the board based on his own anecdotal life experiences and those of his friends.


I wouldn't be so hard on him.

Unless you don't want a ham sandwich!
Back to the subject at hand, interesting information. I have been discussing this with the gf myself. She deathly afraid that she will be denied because, (much to elex's chagrin), there are people in Colombia that get denied a visa to the US! Her sister is here and she married a Peruvian nationalist. He enlisted the help of a lawyer. It may be money well spent to avoid a true heartache!
Fosgate5: Keep us posted how your case winds throughout the system. There are people that can benefit from your well traveled paths!

[Elexpatriado]

Calipro said:Unless you don't want a ham sandwich!
Back to the subject at hand, interesting information. I have been discussing this with the gf myself. She deathly afraid that she will be denied because, (much to elex's chagrin), there are people in Colombia that get denied a visa to the US! Her sister is here and she married a Peruvian nationalist. He enlisted the help of a lawyer. It may be money well spent to avoid a true heartache!
Fosgate5: Keep us posted how your case winds throughout the system. There are people that can benefit from your well traveled paths!

Yeah they deny the legit ones and let the obvious scammers in....funny how that works..working for the government...

[pachris]

Thanks for sharing your story.  Definitely sucks and wish you the best in sorting through it!

[Fosgate5]

Holy Cow! Just got off the phone with the embassy consulate that interviewed my fiance responding to congressional inquiry from my congressman. He read my letter and reversing his decision. Approved!!

[mambocowboy]

Holy Cow! Just got off the phone with the embassy consulate that interviewed my fiance responding to congressional inquiry from my congressman. He read my letter and reversing his decision. Approved!!

That's great news. Congratulations!

[Wildstubby]

It goes to show you, never give up hope! Congratulations! Now I hope everything else goes smoothly for you!

[robert angel]

It goes to show you, never give up hope! Congratulations! Now I hope everything else goes smoothly for you!

Yup, Fos got sucker punched in the bottom of the twelfth round. Paper work seemed to be moving right along, then boom! He was down, dazed and really bummed, but he got back up, kept fighting and won!

Between being tenacious and realizing some members of congress can be helpful in such a bind, there's lessons in there for all of us, guess!

[robert angel]

I guess that hind sight being 20/20, the way this turned out shouldn't have been effected by Fos not visiting and meeting, having photos with, the finacee's Mom, as she lives in an area distant from where the couple physically met. More importantly, IMO, it being an area the US Govt actively advises US Citizens NOT to visit, it should've been a non-issue. But looks like some desk jockey apparently felt differently. You never know....

So pics with her family are always helpful.

Also, I think (As always, I could be wrong) that technology has changed in that unlike the old Yahoo chat app, which allowed you to archive and later print out dated chat logs, and 'for pay' phone service providers sent you date detailed bills, we still have to gather up evidence of a bona-fide relationship as best, however we can.

Letters from both the guy and gal, expressing intent to wed, any chat, phone logs, travel info, inc. pics and receipts and whenever possible, records showing you met some family, all help.

Better to have and not need, then need and not have.

Fos covered the bases pretty good. They were organized and as my wife was, when she had her embassy interview, had all the papers organized. (I recommend an 'accordian' folder organizer)

She was ready - - knew his fav foods, colors, b day--a lot of stuff about him. You never know what they're gonna ask, so it's important that the lady has a pretty good idea about you, where you live and your life in general.

[Elexpatriado]

Good news . Glad to hear

[Wildstubby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBKulK-qDyU

[Jhengsman]

I guess that hind sight being 20/20, the way this turned out shouldn't have been effected by Fos not visiting and meeting, having photos with, the finacee's Mom, as she lives in an area distant from where the couple physically met. More importantly, IMO, it being an area the US Govt actively advises US Citizens NOT to visit, it should've been a non-issue. But looks like some desk jockey apparently felt differently. You never know....

So pics with her family are always helpful.

Also, I think (As always, I could be wrong) that technology has changed in that unlike the old Yahoo chat app, which allowed you to archive and later print out dated chat logs, and 'for pay' phone service providers sent you date detailed bills, we still have to gather up evidence of a bona-fide relationship as best, however we can.

Letters from both the guy and gal, expressing intent to wed, any chat, phone logs, travel info, inc. pics and receipts and whenever possible, records showing you met some family, all help.

Better to have and not need, then need and not have.

Fos covered the bases pretty good. They were organized and as my wife was, when she had her embassy interview, had all the papers organized. (I recommend an 'accordian' folder organizer)

She was ready - - knew his fav foods, colors, b day--a lot of stuff about him. You never know what they're gonna ask, so it's important that the lady has a pretty good idea about you, where you live and your life in general.

I am imagining the interviewer just has a checklist and the extended family could have been caught in a Marawi City bunker during the battle and he would have just followed the checklist.

[robert angel]

I am imagining the interviewer just has a checklist and the extended family could have been caught in a Marawi City bunker during the battle and he would have just followed the checklist.

LOL

[Fosgate5]

What a 24 hours it's been. I can recollect the phone call a little better. Yesterday was a long day with over 400 miles driven. I crashed about 7:30pm. about 11pm my phone rings and I see it's that Maryland phone number and know right away it's the embassy. I answer it as I'm jumping out of bed. Groggy and foggy I totally forgot about my rant i had prepared if he gave me any crap. He started out saying they had my letter and he was responding to the inquiry and had absolute authority. He was also the one who interviewed my girl. We talked a little bit and he said first off he reviews thousands of applicants and that Cherry Blossoms website was mentioned and that is a red flag with the fraud rings. I countered with how I went about my vetting process and asked the same questions several times over for consistency and she never failed a question. I wish I could have provided you with a chat log but there is no way I can afford to print and mail a case of paper. I advised we chatted or Skype every night but stated "How can one track that stuff?" This day and age we don't write letters and make multiple trips that take us 6 days of travel to get there and back. My work just simply doesn't allow that much consecutive days off for my critical position. She's never asked me for money i stated.


He also mentioned he saw I was a vet thanked me for my service and this is where he got into the nitty gritty. He said he noted in my letter when I visited her I stated I wanted to meet her family but they live in Mindanao which the Embassy issued a travel advisory. He thanked me for following that advisory and as many people don't. This is a legitimate counter he said as I stated that I would travel there to marry her if forced into that position. He said for this reason, not the congressional inquiry is the reason he would reverse his decision which he has never done in over 15 years in his position. He would issue the visa that day and he said don't worry about my application consideration deadline of the 12th (in 5 days), he will extend it to make sure the visa is issued.


Telling you, this may be a one off but if I had not written that letter the day of and immediately gotten the attention of my congressman's staff, they may have never given it a second look. I would still use this as a cautionary tale of the K1 process as the odds of them looking a second time is slim to none.

[robert angel]

What a 24 hours it's been. I can recollect the phone call a little better. Yesterday was a long day with over 400 miles driven. I crashed about 7:30pm. about 11pm my phone rings and I see it's that Maryland phone number and know right away it's the embassy. I answer it as I'm jumping out of bed. Groggy and foggy I totally forgot about my rant i had prepared if he gave me any crap. He started out saying they had my letter and he was responding to the inquiry and had absolute authority. He was also the one who interviewed my girl. We talked a little bit and he said first off he reviews thousands of applicants and that Cherry Blossoms website was mentioned and that is a red flag with the fraud rings. I countered with how I went about my vetting process and asked the same questions several times over for consistency and she never failed a question. I wish I could have provided you with a chat log but there is no way I can afford to print and mail a case of paper. I advised we chatted or Skype every night but stated "How can one track that stuff?" This day and age we don't write letters and make multiple trips that take us 6 days of travel to get there and back. My work just simply doesn't allow that much consecutive days off for my critical position. She's never asked me for money i stated.


He also mentioned he saw I was a vet thanked me for my service and this is where he got into the nitty gritty. He said he noted in my letter when I visited her I stated I wanted to meet her family but they live in Mindanao which the Embassy issued a travel advisory. He thanked me for following that advisory and as many people don't. This is a legitimate counter he said as I stated that I would travel there to marry her if forced into that position. He said for this reason, not the congressional inquiry is the reason he would reverse his decision which he has never done in over 15 years in his position. He would issue the visa that day and he said don't worry about my application consideration deadline of the 12th (in 5 days), he will extend it to make sure the visa is issued.


Telling you, this may be a one off but if I had not written that letter the day of and immediately gotten the attention of my congressman's staff, they may have never given it a second look. I would still use this as a cautionary tale of the K1 process as the odds of them looking a second time is slim to none.

Cautionary tale indeed. While it never should've been denied, it goes to show that perhaps you can't be too over prepared.

We submitted samples of our chat logs from yahoo, like a page or so from every week or two for four years. Not even sure if you can chat and archive/save print from Yahoo or elsewhere these days.

The US Embassy guy did a cursory glance though the chat pages and asked my wife a question about a weird character from Planet Love years ago, an oddball named Luther. Luther was totally inconsequential to my wife and I. Initially, she did not recall, and then she did, and said something like, "Oh yes, that strange, troubled man". But for a minute there, my wife's heart sank deep.

You never know how USCIS is gonna roll, but before my wife's ride from the interview had dropped her off, the govt. official texted my wife, congratulating her, wishing her luck in her new country. Never heard that happening before or since.

But when I went to print it, all those records turned from letters and words to some bizarre, binary code.

A real immodium moment.

Somehow, I found a kind cyber nerd in a chat room , who was kind enough to figure out how to change it back into print. Ironically, he worked for yahoo and told me so after I scathingly told him how awful yahoo was. I owe that guy a debt.

I had, perhaps stupidly gone and traveled the three hours into the Mindanao countryside to meet my wife's family.

That meant traveling thru areas largely controlled by the communist NPA (new people's army) and extreme Muslim' MILF insurgents (Moro Islamic Front) We rented a van to get there, not telling the driver beforehand that he'd be transporting an American, and my wife's brothers served as body guards. I was never allowed to walk alone, or in certain areas. Crazy, but calculated risk.

To illustrate just HOW smart I am~(not)~While I was there, in the small city (where I had visited) nearest my wife's village, the NPA rolled a grenade into a bakery, killing several.

So you can see why Fos wisely didn't want to go into  Zamboanga, which is around some areas even worse than where I was, places even THEN, I wouldn't have gone.

But yeah guys, you and your gal better have a lot more than rings on your fingers to show USCIS, whether she's from Switzerland or Somalia, Colombia or Cotabato, because second chances are slim to none.

While I didn't, so to speak, have 'A dog in the fight' with Fos's situation, I did feed the 'dog' some kibble n bits advice re the 'process' - - and I REALLY regret not telling him more about chat LOGS!

[Wildstubby]

Robert angel said:

But when I went to print it, all those records turned from letters and words to some bizarre, binary code.

A real immodium moment.

Somehow, I found a kind cyber nerd in a chat room , who was kind enough to figure out how to change it back into print. Ironically, he worked for yahoo and told me so after I scathingly told him how awful yahoo was. I owe that guy a debt.

Let's stay along these lines for a moment. There is a good possibility I, (and others also) will be doing the same thing. My girlfriend, and most I have talked to from Colombia use 'Whatsapp'. This is primarily designated for a cell phone platform. How do you get 'hard copies' of conversations on that? I don't think you can provide too much information. The more the embassy has to see, the less questions they will have about missing information. Or am I wrong to think that?

[robert angel]

Robert angel said:Let's stay along these lines for a moment. There is a good possibility I, (and others also) will be doing the same thing. My girlfriend, and most I have talked to from Colombia use 'Whatsapp'. This is primarily designated for a cell phone platform. How do you get 'hard copies' of conversations on that? I don't think you can provide too much information. The more the embassy has to see, the less questions they will have about missing information. Or am I wrong to think that?

Does facebook allow you to copy chat?  Maybe you can right click, highlight, copy paste and print in less expensive grey scale mode?

I know how antique it sounds, but if just for uniqueness, some paper letters (save envelopes!!) of correspondence. We had a few, including from her parents. Seems like a labor, but couldn't hurt. I'd even mention in writing something like:

"I know we chat on whatsapp everyday, but I'm worried about no record, and besides, years from now, I want us to be able to pull these letters out and remember how sweet our love was"

Or some cornball thing. Have her perfume the envelope--put cologne on yours (or Jack Daniels, LOL) There's gotta be a way and really, several ways, because USCIS is expecting documentation to demonstrate a bona-fide relationship on several levels/sources.

You ought to have more than hotel, airfare, hotel receipts  and pictures. If you only spend a day with her family, try and change into swimsuits, to dinner clothes, etc... You have to convince, in a way, 'sell' your situation to these people.

I imagine these guys HAVE to--are expected to, reject a certain amount of cases. I'd hate to come in short on evidence if USCIS 'quota time' is approaching and be the case to justify someone's numbers.

Not saying that such is the norm, but this thread has sobered----wizened me up a bit and I'd advise going a few extra miles.

[Wildstubby]

Robert angel said:

Does facebook allow you to copy chat?  Maybe you can right click, highlight, copy paste and print in less expensive grey scale mode?

I know how antique it sounds, but if just for uniqueness, some paper letters (save envelopes!!) of correspondence. We had a few, including from her parents. Seems like a labor, but couldn't hurt. I'd even mention in writing something like:

"I know we chat on whatsapp everyday, but I'm worried about no record, and besides, years from now, I want us to be able to pull these letters out and remember how sweet our love was"

Or some cornball thing. Have her perfume the envelope--put cologne on yours (or Jack Daniels, LOL) There's gotta be a way and really, several ways, because USCIS is expecting documentation to demonstrate a bona-fide relationship on several levels/sources.

You ought to have more than hotel, airfare, hotel receipts  and pictures. If you only spend a day with her family, try and change into swimsuits, to dinner clothes, etc... You have to convince, in a way, 'sell' your situation to these people.

I imagine these guys HAVE to--are expected to, reject a certain amount of cases. I'd hate to come in short on evidence if USCIS 'quota time' is approaching and be the case to justify someone's numbers.

Not saying that such is the norm, but this thread has sobered----wizened me up a bit and I'd advise going a few extra miles.

I would like to do the 'letters' thing but Colombian mail service delivery from another foreign country is spotty to say the least! You are correct, this thread has really put the proverbial 'sun behind the clouds' sort of speak! We often times tend to be too optimistic and when the rug gets pulled out from under us, it is usually a long fall to the bottom! When I was there in May, I spent the entire time with her family at her house in Ibague. I got some photos but it gives rise to always have some sort of record of the moment. We do a lot of video chat on WhatsApp because her kids are usually using her laptop for school studies or something to that effect. As a result of the tribulations being discussed here, it may be time to return to Skype, (for a while, we couldn't use it between the US and Colombia!). Just so we can have a record of our talks and at the very least a time-stamp of video chat and duration.

[pachris]

Holy Cow! Just got off the phone with the embassy consulate that interviewed my fiance responding to congressional inquiry from my congressman. He read my letter and reversing his decision. Approved!!

Congrats!  Maybe our reps are good for something after all!

[pachris]

Does facebook allow you to copy chat?  Maybe you can right click, highlight, copy paste and print in less expensive grey scale mode?

I know how antique it sounds, but if just for uniqueness, some paper letters (save envelopes!!) of correspondence. We had a few, including from her parents. Seems like a labor, but couldn't hurt. I'd even mention in writing something like:

"I know we chat on whatsapp everyday, but I'm worried about no record, and besides, years from now, I want us to be able to pull these letters out and remember how sweet our love was"

Or some cornball thing. Have her perfume the envelope--put cologne on yours (or Jack Daniels, LOL) There's gotta be a way and really, several ways, because USCIS is expecting documentation to demonstrate a bona-fide relationship on several levels/sources.

You ought to have more than hotel, airfare, hotel receipts  and pictures. If you only spend a day with her family, try and change into swimsuits, to dinner clothes, etc... You have to convince, in a way, 'sell' your situation to these people.

I imagine these guys HAVE to--are expected to, reject a certain amount of cases. I'd hate to come in short on evidence if USCIS 'quota time' is approaching and be the case to justify someone's numbers.

Not saying that such is the norm, but this thread has sobered----wizened me up a bit and I'd advise going a few extra miles.

WhatsApp has a desktop version that I believe would allow copy paste into a document. Unfortunately there doesn't currently appear to be a print option. 
I believe your copy/paste method should work just fine for Facebook and other apps as well.