Broken Immigration System?

[fathertime]

This argument is pretty thin, given we've had temporary agriculture worker programs in one form or another since at least 1976 which is the year I bought my first farm. Maybe you could spend a few minutes in google and bone up on the subject.

I don't think what i've said constitutes an 'argument'... 


I brought up a STRICT worker program...Whatever has been in place has not worked properly as it stands now we have somewhere between 11-25 million illegals here...you can add in a lot more when you speak of their children that were born on our soil and hence are legal citizens. 


If our 'representatives' cared enough they could put in place a program that allowed people to work and yet return to their home country's...the laws of our land are different now then they were when your family came over on a ship in the 1700's.   I don't know what your position is on the subject because I've only read your criticisms of what i've said...


Now Andy, I've been respectful of your opinions thus far but you continue to bring up 'fox news' and 'rush limbaugh' and act like that anybody who disagrees is brainwashed by these sources or needs to do 'basic google searches'....FYI, I usually work during the limbaugh comedy show so I haven't listened for years...if you are going to sling mud and attempt to insult my intelligence, rather than substantially discuss the subject, then well I could go down that road too with you...but I'd rather just hear your viewpoint and agree with parts and disagree with other parts...


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

Both these last 2-3 presidents have been very bad in allowing illegal immigrants to cross, work, and stay here....My understanding is that Obozo isn't even following the law regarding deportations....I don't care as much anymore about the law abiding illegals that are already here...I'd like to see the flow cut off completely for new ones though...I KNOW it COULD be done if our govt. representatives put the controls in place but It doesn't seem like they are ever going to...so we can continue to expect to have hoards more...and all the magnets/freebies we give them (their children) is a joke.  Fathertime!

I'm pretty sure you have verifiable statistics to back up your statements, yes?

We can watch the news and see people crossing all the time...we can see new enrollments at schools from fresh kids with no english and mom and pop are farm hands...perhaps these things are not bad from your perspective but new illegal immigrants arrive all the time, so I view that as a failure in our leadership to properly secure the border.   


If you would like to go on record as saying the last 3 presidents have been GOOD regarding illegal immigration, then I can say we have a disagreement and will bring out the stats, to prove that point incorrect.  My feeling is if people are going to live here they should be above board, and not just anybody should be allowed to come...it should be the citizen's decision as to how many.   What do you think?


Fathertime!

[AndyLee]

...but I'd rather just hear your viewpoint and agree with parts and disagree with other parts...


Fathertime!

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree, amicably. Thanks
The STRICT H2A worker program you desire is already in place and was described accurately earlier in the thread by Ray. I'm familiar with H2A and I politely disagree that it is not being enforced properly.

[fathertime]

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree, amicably. Thanks
The STRICT H2A worker program you desire is already in place and was described accurately earlier in the thread by Ray. I'm familiar with H2A and I politely disagree that it is not being enforced properly.

Good, cool, we can agree to disagree amicably...NOW...I read more about the H2A program...30,000 people are using it....but we have 11-25 million illegals....I conclude it is not working too good, because most of the people are still working illegally... 


In your experience, or other farmer buddies...did this program enforce the fact that workers must go home after...if so than that is good...and it should be expanded greatly...I'm pretty sure it could be done if there were a stomach for it.  I recognize that we should have legal immigration, but I don't like that we have lost control of the border for the most part.


Fathertime! 

[Researcher]

Yes, the difference between 11 million and 25 million is approximately 14 million, more than double what we really have. If it were true, which it isn't then with 25 million new Democrats we would have control of the white house, senate and house of representatives from now till doomsday, assuming 15% of those 25 million actually vote and of the ones that vote 95% of them vote responsibly, for Democrats.

When you are talking millions of people in this instance 11 or 25 is a minute detail is not completely insignificant. It is like debating the number of chairs on the deck of the Titanic: It doesn't matter.

You are assuming illegals vote. The ones I know barely take an interest in US politics let alone vote. You are also assuming of the few that might vote will vote democrat.....Here's some new and shocking info: The ones that are interested in voting will vote for whoever they think will help their cause. This is true with most voters and they are no different. Right now there are articles that state Obama has lost the approval of many hispanic voters. Gee, I wonder why?

Yes, there is  at  HUGE difference between 1 felony and 2 or 3. The OP stated that the uncle was a Felon. Quite frankly, a person who kept his nose clean for 50 years and got caught once for DUI is a LOT different from a person who has 2 or 3 felony convictions. DUI in the US is incredibly common and not something most of us think of as "felon". When we see the word felon in the OP we are led to believe the uncle is a serial rapist or a murderer or child molester.

I have never even had a DUI so I guess that makes me a saint. Anyway, I doubt what is being reported about this guy is true. The liberal media will slant anything that has to do with Obama so if they report his uncle has only been arrested for a DUI then he probably has a very long rap sheet. And you certainly can't count on Obama to be honest. First he claimed he had never met his uncle then it turns out that he had.

This is all soap opera crap to me. The real problem is that we practically have an open border. It should be sealed off. I don't buy this crap of it isn't possible. The US can fly half way around the world and fight wars in two counties at the same time. The border can be secured.

The illegals that are here can be made to leave as well. This isn't an impossible task it is a matter of will just like securing the border. All the rhetoric and BS coming from both political parties is nonsense. The border should be secured to start with and then a decision should be made as to how to handle the illegals here. Worrying about the exact number when it is clearly in the millions is a waste of time and I could care less about Obama's uncle. He is here illegally which makes him a criminal.

[AndyLee]

There are many, many sides to the immigration question, but, principally there are two camps.
In one camp some people simply refuse to read statistics because they believe all government bureaus, all government employees, all elected officials, all of the press, in fact, just about everybody everywhere, is lying to them and fudging the numbers to make it look like the deportation program is working. These people feel there is no truth, there is no justice and they are convinced that America is on a steep economic and political decline and will never recover. These people believe the only solution is a scorched earth immigration policy where any illegal is a criminal and they get deported, period. No questions asked and no answers accepted.
Whether the illegal has been here for 50 years and raised a family, attended church, built a business or held a steady job, paid taxes, spent his or her income supporting other businesses in the community. None of that matters, the illegal is a criminal and is given 24 hours to be at airport to be sent back to wherever they came from.  If they don't show up at the airport as directed they are hunted down, placed in custody and sent out on the next flight.
In this camp, (for lack of a better name I'll call it the scorched earth camp), these people want the borders  secured with a death ray. That includes all airports, all sea ports, all common land borders. Anyone, from anywhere, who for any reason and using any possible method tries to slip into the US will be shot on sight, no questions asked, no answers accepted. After shooting, if they don't die from their wounds, they will be deported.
In the second camp, called the Reasonable Immigration Policy Camp, we have the existing US Immigration Policy and it is being enforced regardless of who wants to believe otherwise. In the Reasonable Immigration Policy Camp these people believe that illegals are human beings who deserve fair and balanced treatment.
Here is an article from a reasonably neutral news source, USA Today, that gives some background and some thoughts on the US Immigration Policy that we now have, and offers some suggestions on how the laws are not adequate and how they can be made better.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/08/as-deportations-soar-mich-mom-spared/3904425/
Here is the lead sentence in the story; A record 409,849 people were deported by the U.S. in 2012, many of them on 24-hour notice.

[fathertime]

There are many, many sides to the immigration question, but, principally there are two camps.
In one camp some people simply refuse to read statistics because they believe all government bureaus, all government employees, all elected officials, all of the press, in fact, just about everybody everywhere, is lying to them and fudging the numbers to make it look like the deportation program is working. These people feel there is no truth, there is no justice and they are convinced that America is on a steep economic and political decline and will never recover. These people believe the only solution is a scorched earth immigration policy where any illegal is a criminal and they get deported, period. No questions asked and no answers accepted.
Whether the illegal has been here for 50 years and raised a family, attended church, built a business or held a steady job, paid taxes, spent his or her income supporting other businesses in the community. None of that matters, the illegal is a criminal and is given 24 hours to be at airport to be sent back to wherever they came from.  If they don't show up at the airport as directed they are hunted down, placed in custody and sent out on the next flight.
In this camp, (for lack of a better name I'll call it the scorched earth camp), these people want the borders  secured with a death ray. That includes all airports, all sea ports, all common land borders. Anyone, from anywhere, who for any reason and using any possible method tries to slip into the US will be shot on sight, no questions asked, no answers accepted. After shooting, if they don't die from their wounds, they will be deported.
In the second camp, called the Reasonable Immigration Policy Camp, we have the existing US Immigration Policy and it is being enforced regardless of who wants to believe otherwise. In the Reasonable Immigration Policy Camp these people believe that illegals are human beings who deserve fair and balanced treatment.
Here is an article from a reasonably neutral news source, USA Today, that gives some background and some thoughts on the US Immigration Policy that we now have, and offers some suggestions on how the laws are not adequate and how they can be made better.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/08/as-deportations-soar-mich-mom-spared/3904425/
Here is the lead sentence in the story; A record 409,849 people were deported by the U.S. in 2012, many of them on 24-hour notice.

well andy, since you spent the majority of your post exaggerating the evils one position, perhaps we should consider another position, which you appear to be advocating:


how about those people people that want to immediately legalize all the immigrants here and others that arrive...whether they be criminal or not...the should all be eligible for unemployment, wic, welfare, section 8 housing, free medical care and obamaphone....




I think it is best NOT to spend TOO much time distorting other people's position.  I'd rather just hear what YOU think is a reasonable position on the issue.

This is all soap opera crap to me. The real problem is that we practically have an open border. It should be sealed off. I don't buy this crap of it isn't possible. The US can fly half way around the world and fight wars in two counties at the same time. The border can be secured.

The illegals that are here can be made to leave as well. This isn't an impossible task it is a matter of will just like securing the border. All the rhetoric and BS coming from both political parties is nonsense. The border should be secured to start with and then a decision should be made as to how to handle the illegals here. Worrying about the exact number when it is clearly in the millions is a waste of time and I could care less about Obama's uncle. He is here illegally which makes him a criminal.

This seems reasonable enough to me...if our representatives REALLY decided to seal the border like most of the public wants, it could be done...If we need more workers, I'd rather we import some legally and use a temporary workforce for others...What the hell kind of system is it we have now, where just about anybody can make it through, be it by foot, or by coyote....the penalties need to be severe enough to discourage most of the people from trying to cross. 


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/08/as-deportations-soar-mich-mom-spared/3904425/
Here is the lead sentence in the story; A record 409,849 people were deported by the U.S. in 2012, many of them on 24-hour notice.

although the illegal immigrants just keep on coming...what fact I liked best about the article from a year ago is that the higher % of illegals deported are hardened criminals...hopefully these often violent criminals are in prison either here or there...it would be no good if criminals are simply released...because oftentimes they would wind up right back here within weeks.


Fathertime!

[Ray]

...a person who kept his nose clean for 50 years and got caught once for DUI is a LOT different from a person who has 2 or 3 felony convictions. DUI in the
 

And you so conveniently forgot to mention that this criminal ignored THREE deportation orders. He has NO respect for our laws and deserves NONE of our respect. This criminal should have been placed on a plane back to Kenya the second time he was ordered deported.
 
 

When we see the word felon in the OP we are led to believe the uncle is a serial rapist or a murderer or child molester.

Only a complete moron would would be led to believe that stupid nonsense from what I posted.
 
 
Ray
 
 

[Ray]

Attacking all immigrants as being evil is counter productive IMHO. We should only be attacking the ones who are using criminal means to arrive in the US and criminal means to stay here.

So, just saying THEY ALL came with evil intent is doing them, and us, a disservice.
 

Now this is a good example of the lies and pure bull shyt we constantly get from the far left.
 
This mantra of 'anyone who is opposed to ILLEGAL immigration therefore despises ALL immigrants and thinks they are all "evil".'
 
My wife is an immigrant you fool, and I have probably petitioned more immigrants that you could dream of.
 
But I am glad that you agree we should be attacking Obama's uncle Omar, who obviously has been using "criminal means to stay here" by ignoring THREE deportation orders!
 
Ray
 
 
 
 
 

[Ray]

There are many, many sides to the immigration question, but, principally there are two camps.
In one camp some people simply refuse to read statistics because they believe all government bureaus, all government employees, all elected officials, all of the press, in fact, just about everybody everywhere, is lying to them and fudging the numbers to make it look like the deportation program is working. These people feel there is no truth, there is no justice and they are convinced that America is on a steep economic and political decline and will never recover. These people believe the only solution is a scorched earth immigration policy where any illegal is a criminal and they get deported, period. No questions asked and no answers accepted.
Whether the illegal has been here for 50 years and raised a family, attended church, built a business or held a steady job, paid taxes, spent his or her income supporting other businesses in the community. None of that matters, the illegal is a criminal and is given 24 hours to be at airport to be sent back to wherever they came from.  If they don't show up at the airport as directed they are hunted down, placed in custody and sent out on the next flight.
In this camp, (for lack of a better name I'll call it the scorched earth camp), these people want the borders  secured with a death ray. That includes all airports, all sea ports, all common land borders. Anyone, from anywhere, who for any reason and using any possible method tries to slip into the US will be shot on sight, no questions asked, no answers accepted. After shooting, if they don't die from their wounds, they will be deported.
In the second camp, called the Reasonable Immigration Policy Camp, we have the existing US Immigration Policy and it is being enforced regardless of who wants to believe otherwise. In the Reasonable Immigration Policy Camp these people believe that illegals are human beings who deserve fair and balanced treatment.

And yet another worthless rant from a typical lying liberal. These hateful guys will tell any lie to make those who disagree with them look like murderous thugs.
 
So now anyone who is opposed to illegal immigration and enforcing the law wants to kill illegal immigrants on sight??? And you want us to believe that your stupid lies are "reasonable"?
 
Where do you get this ignorant swill from, MSNBC? Or did your own little feeble mind think this stuff up all by itself?
 

 
 
 
Ray
 

[Researcher]

well andy, since you spent the majority of your post exaggerating the evils one position, perhaps we should consider another position, which you appear to be advocating:


how about those people people that want to immediately legalize all the immigrants here and others that arrive...whether they be criminal or not...the should all be eligible for unemployment, wic, welfare, section 8 housing, free medical care and obamaphone....




I think it is best NOT to spend TOO much time distorting other people's position.  I'd rather just hear what YOU think is a reasonable position on the issue.



This seems reasonable enough to me...if our representatives REALLY decided to seal the border like most of the public wants, it could be done...If we need more workers, I'd rather we import some legally and use a temporary workforce for others...What the hell kind of system is it we have now, where just about anybody can make it through, be it by foot, or by coyote....the penalties need to be severe enough to discourage most of the people from trying to cross. 


Fathertime!

Yes it is not that difficult. First priority should be securing the border as a matter of national security and then deciding what to do with the illegal criminals that are here. That decision should be based on what is in the best interest of the American people and that factor alone.

[bcc_1_2]

Yes it is not that difficult. First priority should be securing the border as a matter of national security and then deciding what to do with the illegal criminals that are here. That decision should be based on what is in the best interest of the American people and that factor alone.

It's like saying we should get to zero defects before we ever sell a car to the public. If that was the case we'd all still be riding horses to this day. The 38th parallel between South and North Korea is the most secure border on the planet and still a few North Koreans have disabled the electrified fencing and found their way through the landmines to the South.  What needs to happen is a comprehensive immigration solution that is our best attempt to solve the problems at hand. 

It's the name-calling and red/blue political dividing that stands in the way of that. It's the absurdity of doing what the RNC says should be done on immigration or the heritage foundation says should be done on healthcare and being called liberal for it that is asinine.   

[Ray]

What needs to happen is a comprehensive immigration solution that is our best attempt to solve the problems at hand. 

English translation: 'Give everyone full amnesty, citizenship and all the benefits that come with it, and don't do a damn thing about the border'.
 
I watched for years while the Democrats in Sacramento did everything they could think of to stop the completion of the border fence in San Diego. They used every lame excuse from environmental damage to protection of endangered bugs, but they were too cowardly to admit that they don't want ANY control of our borders.
 
Open borders and citizenship for all criminals because they think the new citizens will vote overwhelmingly for Democrats...period! End of story!
 
Now THAT is asinine!
 
 
Ray
 

[bcc_1_2]

English translation: 'Give everyone full amnesty, citizenship and all the benefits that come with it, and don't do a damn thing about the border'.
 

If you are going to translate you better understand the definition of words. Amnesty involves forgetting or overlooking a past offense. By forcing them to pay a fine, back taxes, future taxes, and commit no crimes (outside of traffic violations) that would not be amnesty. It would however be changing the rules to deal with the present realities in this country. If you disagree with that change so be it as you are a rather loud vocal minority. However, name-calling and mislabeling Republican backed immigration proposals does nothing to advance the argument.

[beulah]

  as you are a rather loud vocal minority.

the pot calls the kettle black.

[bcc_1_2]

the pot calls the kettle black.

Wrong this site is a minority in general. It's hard to really classify you in any particular way as your only hobby on here is to criticize me as you've had no particular value to your postings. But generally speaking the politics here and dating theory is anything but mainstream. That's okay of course, but the average Joe and Jane are most likely to get weirded out by this site and popular terms such as "mail order bride". And yes immigration reform is a rather mainstream idea attracting republicans interested in winning again this decade, democrats, independents, and Americans from all walks.

[fathertime]

If you are going to translate you better understand the definition of words. Amnesty involves forgetting or overlooking a past offense. 

Really another 'lecture' for Ray about basic definitions?

If you are going to translate you better understand the definition of words. Amnesty involves forgetting or overlooking a past offense. By forcing them to pay a fine, back taxes, future taxes, and commit no crimes (outside of traffic violations) that would not be amnesty. It would however be changing the rules to deal with the present realities in this country. If you disagree with that change so be it as you are a rather loud vocal minority. However, name-calling and mislabeling Republican backed immigration proposals does nothing to advance the argument.

It sounds like your preference is to legalize everyone here and worry about the borders later....if that is the typical opinion from the comprehensive reform people, than the bills will continue to languish and go nowhere...    If a citizen like Bcc is against closing the borders than that is his choice, but we do have a sovereign country here with laws and if they aren't being enforced than we have no obligation to make the lawbreakers full citizens.  I think YOUR opinion is the loud minority opinion.


More serious effort needs to be made with closing the borders and real workplace enforcement...if that is not going to happen than we will have another 20 million people to 'legalize in 15 years or less.
Fathertime! 

[beulah]

Wrong this site is a minority in general. It's hard to really classify you in any particular way as your only hobby on here is to criticize me .

speaking of minorities and majorities, the majority of ignorant comments come from you which makes you a minority in general.

[robert angel]

It's the name-calling and red/blue political dividing that stands in the way of that.

Yea--a lot of that gets in the way of a lot of things, that's for sure.

[Researcher]

It's like saying we should get to zero defects before we ever sell a car to the public. If that was the case we'd all still be riding horses to this day. The 38th parallel between South and North Korea is the most secure border on the planet and still a few North Koreans have disabled the electrified fencing and found their way through the landmines to the South.  What needs to happen is a comprehensive immigration solution that is our best attempt to solve the problems at hand. 

It's the name-calling and red/blue political dividing that stands in the way of that. It's the absurdity of doing what the RNC says should be done on immigration or the heritage foundation says should be done on healthcare and being called liberal for it that is asinine.

You are wrong on that. Just because a few will be successful doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. There are millions of illegals in this country. Many of them could be terrorists. There is no excuse for not having a secure border.

[Ray]

If you are going to translate you better understand the definition of words. Amnesty involves forgetting or overlooking a past offense. By forcing them to pay a fine, back taxes, future taxes, and commit no crimes (outside of traffic violations) that would not be amnesty. It would however be changing the rules to deal with the present realities in this country. If you disagree with that change so be it as you are a rather loud vocal minority. However, name-calling and mislabeling Republican backed immigration proposals does nothing to advance the argument.

  I really don’t need another lecture from an ignorant fool such as yourself.
　
Now instead of relying on bcc’s ignorance and the word of a bunch of lying Democrats who are trying to fool us into believing that their plan for the legalization of illegal aliens is not amnesty, let’s check in with an actual highly regarded authority, Miriam Webster:
--------------------
Full Definition of AMNESTY 　 : the act of an authority (as a government) by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals
　
Examples of AMNESTY 　
 
1. The government gave amnesty to all political prisoners. 　
 
2. Illegal immigrants who came into the country before 1982 were granted amnesty.
 
-----------------
This stupid nonsense of paying a fine and then getting a green card is pure BULLSHYT!
 
By forgiving the illegals and pardoning their violation of the law and allowing them to avoid the prescribed punishment (banning them from any immigration benefits for 10 years to life as the law calls for), you are granting them AMNESTY.
　
And we aren't even getting into the crime of identity theft yet...
 
Now do YOU understand the definition of the word AMNESTY bcc?

 
 
Ray
　

[bcc_1_2]

Yea--a lot of that gets in the way of a lot of things, that's for sure.

Heritage plan got passed for health care. The outrage about it is all a fake distraction. Republicans will get an immigration deal done before the next presidential election because they want to win.

I worry about the job market, but I love how some have bought the terrorism argument hook, line and sinker. That word has done terrible things. It's taken away almost all of the bill of rights. It's screwed our civil liberties. All because of this ginned up fear against the unknown man in a cave. I'm not afraid of the man in the cave. I'm not afraid of a standing army. I'm afraid of the banker. And I most certainly don't see things as red and blue. I'd prefer to see the world the way Charles A. Lindbergh saw it.

[fathertime]

  And I most certainly don't see things as red and blue.

I don't know how you can say that with a straight face...you appear to be VERY partisan to me....everything is about the democrats winning the next election and who gets the votes from hispanics...

I worry about the job market, but I love how some have bought the terrorism argument hook, line and sinker. That word has done terrible things. It's taken away almost all of the bill of rights. It's screwed our civil liberties.

It sounds to me like you are complaining that the word 'terrorism' might take away the "RIGHT" for illegal immigrants to continue crossing over our border unchecked. 


Leaving the possibility of terrorists outta the equation for a moment, I still don't think our country should be taking on any old person that decides they want to cross the border...That is no way to conduct an immigration plan...You appear to advocate that nothing much change regarding border enforcement...and I conclude the reason for that is that you have only enjoyed the benefits of lowered labor costs and suffered very little of consequences in the city you live in...I think you have a VERY incomplete picture because of that....


Fathertime!

[bcc_1_2]

I don't know how you can say that with a straight face...you appear to be VERY partisan to me....everything is about the democrats winning the next election and who gets the votes from hispanics...





It sounds to me like you are complaining that the word 'terrorism' might take away the "RIGHT" for illegal immigrants to continue crossing over our border unchecked. 


Leaving the possibility of terrorists outta the equation for a moment, I still don't think our country should be taking on any old person that decides they want to cross the border...That is no way to conduct an immigration plan...You appear to advocate that nothing much change regarding border enforcement...and I conclude the reason for that is that you have only enjoyed the benefits of lowered labor costs and suffered very little of consequences in the city you live in...I think you have a VERY incomplete picture because of that....


Fathertime!

Only someone glued to fox news and away from reality would think that about me. I can still remember how shocked they all were even when it was clear from the beginning that Obama had it in the bag. It is not my fault they are retarded. And it's why I just said the Republicans will pass immigration reform before the next election. Because without it they can't win. With it then we are talking about a different ballgame.

As for an electrified fence or whatever you might like. Go for it. Knock yourself out. Turn it into the 38th. Now that that discussion is over how do you handle all the people in this country not paying taxes?

And sadly we can penalize and back tax the illegal immigrants (which we should do) and that still wont solve our budget problems. That all starts with the privately held central bank. Ironically England's central bank was causing our debt and was the reason for our country declaring independence in the first place.

You can argue over the heritage foundation's healthcare plan, immigration, gay marriage, or whatever BS issues of the day you like but this country has been forced into slavery and debt ever since the foundation of the federal reserve (which is private not public despite the name) and the central bank attempts that came before it.

It is mathematically impossible for us as a country to ever get out of debt as the Federal Reserve always lends the money to us with interest. It's the exact reason we fought England, and it is the real problem we face every day that most can't even see because idiots want to make up names for Obama or talk about how socialist some conservative think tank healthcare plan is.

Obama bailed out the banks. He bailed out the auto industry a 2nd time after Bush. He has raised healthcare costs for men and has created more business for private healthcare by forcing everyone to purchase it. He's done very little reform to the financial sector and banking industry because he still allows the same system to dictate the economy, the money in the economy, and the rates. Obama is very big business and banker friendly. He's not a liberal, socialist, progressive at all.