Learning English

[whitey]

BTW, I hear what you guys are saying about refusing to speak Spanish in order to force her to use English. However just between us guys, I don't think I could give up the Spanish bedroom talk.

Nup! I just don't see a "no Spanish" rule lasting more then 24 hours - absolute maximum.

I'm going to have to find some middle ground.

Haha ... yes, Spanish is much more "romantic" in the bedroom ...


In our case, I don't "refuse" to speak Spanish per se ... Nazly will still talk about 10% of the time in Spanish, and I'll sometimes reply in Spanish but usually in English.  I've actually started to get quite lazy about my Spanish, and my ability to speak is falling off, although my hearing comprehension seems to still be slowly growing.  It was kind of nice when we went to Cuba in March for a week and I got to speak 100% Spanish again for that time.


I'm looking forward to when we'll have a bilingual household and we can speak half the time in Spanish when we're in the house.

[Jeff S]

It's pretty much like that around here. I speak 75% Japanese and my wife speaks 75% English so it averages out to half and half.

[V_Man]

If our relationship goes the distance, it is always going to be bilingual. I have always assumed that and we have discussed it. So I'm looking at a life time of learning Spanish and she is looking at a life time of learning English.

Incidently, I have doubts that I will ever be fluent in Spanish unless we go and live in a Spanish speaking country at some point. (Which I'm open to).

So really, to be honest I am not very motivated to have a English only household at all. Plus somethings are just so much better said in Spanish!!! 

The other thing, is that she can't really interact with society at all here without English. She will be an awefully long way from everything she has ever known. Not to even mention the time zone problems.

So I am not sure how much 'tough love' I will be able to dish out in this regard. She may need to express herself at home freely. Otherwise she may feel just too isolated.

 If I can steer her away from too many latins then she will need to use English to achieve anything outside the house.

So in spite of your guys advice I'm still thinking a gently, gently approach is best. I'll certainly review that if it doesn't get some results though.

[Alabamaboy!]

I would say we speak 80% English 20% Spanish. The 20% Spanish is when I am trying to explain complex things where she has not had any experience with the terminology or when I need to be 100% sure she understands every word that I am saying.

[braziliangirl]

What I generally see here is the following:

• The English classes in regular school are never enough.
• The ones who can afford, go to a language school something like 1-2h classes, 2 times a week.
• The ones who have a little more money, go to one or more 4 week intensive course in an English speaking country during vacations.
• The ones who have a lot more money, go to a one year interchange program in an English speaking country.

Language school alone is not enough either. The only people I know that can speak English fluenty are the ones who lived somewhere else for a while. And even some of those don't have a good pronunciation.
 
I went to a binational center (like IBEU or CCBEU), who are non profit schools acredited by american consulates and studied for 6 years. When I finished I could read and write quite well, my listening skills were regular and my speaking skills were poor. Then I realized that to get a better job I would need to be fluent. Also I got other motivation: a cute guy from Indiana. I really wanted to communicate with him, so I began reading more, listening to music and try to understand the lyrics, and watching movies with subtitles in English or no subtitles. Realizing how much of new information I was able to reach now that I was becoming fluent in English just made me learn more. Now I'm focusing on pronunciation and I know I still need improvement in grammar. Maybe I'll spend some time in an English speaking place, but I've learned that without proper motivation it's impossible to learn anything, especially a new language. And love is always a good one!

[braziliangirl]

Oh and I didn't say all of that to impress you. I told the story to show that it may be a good option for your girl to learn grammar while still in her country, that will make it  lot easier for her to get the speaking skills later.
 
I agree with Brazilophile on that one:

The schools seem to emphasize speech, over reading and writing English.  This is extremely limiting because it is only through reading and writing that language skills improve over time.  I met many Latinos who English skills declined fairly quickly after a course because they were not speaking enough English for practice and hadn't learned to read English well enough to continue getting exposure to English on their own.

That's why I would search for a binational center or institute. They seem to focus on grammar, reading and writting more than other schools. In mine, we would even learn some about American culture.

[mambocowboy]

My Barranquillera wife who's been here only 2 weeks is loving Instant Immersion (she didn't like the Rosetta Stone samples). Instant Immersion tries to make it fun for the learner which seems to be a big factor. ...

[whitey]

Oh and I didn't say all of that to impress you. I told the story to show that it may be a good option for your girl to learn grammar while still in her country, that will make it  lot easier for her to get the speaking skills later.

You already impressed us long ago, BG.  You and IV write better than a LOT of native speakers.

[V_Man]

You already impressed us long ago, BG.  You and IV write better than a LOT of native speakers.

And when Whitey says better than a LOT of native speakers he is not kidding!

[braziliangirl]

Now seriously, I bump into a lot of guys that can't write in English in a proper manner. I don't know if I am being too strict, but I just lose interest when I see a lot of mistakes. I just think that if someone writes is his own language worse than me, a foreigner, non native speaker, he is probably not smart enough for me to like him.

[Woody]

I think that you should be selective based on a man's ability to write in English. A native speaker that cannot properly form a sentence is either too lazy to care or is lacking in education. I'm not talking about lacking in a college education. You should be able to write with clarity and coherency(ok, redundant) straight out of High School. The thing that irks me the most is when people continually misuse "there, their, and they're." ("They're over there, playing with their ball.")


This is a two way street though, I've stopped talking to many a Latina because her written Spanish was atrocious. When my spelling is better than yours in Spanish, you have issues.

[Ray]

 
Now you're on to something BG and Woody!
 
From my experience, if someone isn't very proficient in his/her own native language, then he/she will have a very difficult time learning a foreign language.
 
If you don't care enough about your own language to use proper grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc., then you are a lost cause when it comes to becoming proficient in a foreign language, IMHO.
 
So for you Latina chasers, have you found that the ones who are weak in the proper use of Spanish are also having great difficulty in learning English?
 
 
Ray
 
 

[Brazilophile]

FWIW, I strongly agree with the last 5 posts by Whitey, V_Man, BG, Woody, and Ray.  It makes me wonder where the US is headed because the MAJORITY of recent high school graduates CANNOT write (or speak) English clearly and coherently in a grammatically correct manner!  Florida had state-wide school exams recently (called FCAT) and the pass rate was 50%.

[Jeff S]

Now seriously, I bump into a lot of guys that can't write in English in a proper manner. I don't know if I am being too strict, but I just lose interest when I see a lot of mistakes. I just think that if someone writes is his own language worse than me, a foreigner, non native speaker, he is probably not smart enough for me to like him.

Can you find the grammatical error in that paragraph? 


I've heard school teachers use absolutely horrid English grammar. It's a little like tattoos - once a badge of the underclass, or discrete reminders of wartime service, ghetto English and tattoos are now elevated to being trendy. I do think that trend will pass though, and those badges of honor will become a convenient filter for hiring managers everywhere - a simple way of sorting the wheat from the chaff.

[Woody]

FWIW, I strongly agree with the last 5 posts by Whitey, V_Man, BG, Woody, and Ray.  It makes me wonder where the US is headed because the MAJORITY of recent high school graduates CANNOT write (or speak) English clearly and coherently in a grammatically correct manner!  Florida had state-wide school exams recently (called FCAT) and the pass rate was 50%.

This is a significant problem that no one really wants to address. We have raised an apathetic and entitled generation that believes that just because they graduated, the world owes them a good job. Never mind that they can barely communicate and are the last people you would want to put in a customer facing job. Oh no, the little snowflake deserves the job.

[Brazilophile]

Can you find the grammatical error in that paragraph? 

My guess is "I bump into a lot of guys that who can't write in English in a proper manner."  I was taught to use "that" when referring to a thing and "who/whom" when referring to a person.

I've heard school teachers use absolutely horrid English grammar. It's a little like tattoos - once a badge of the underclass, or discrete reminders of wartime service, ghetto English and tattoos are now elevated to being trendy. I do think that trend will pass though, and those badges of honor will become a convenient filter for hiring managers everywhere - a simple way of sorting the wheat from the chaff.

Most of the Spanish teachers who have instructed me have said the same thing.  How well a person speaks the Spanish language is taken as one indicator of how well you were raised; essentially it helps indicate your social class.  In fact, one teacher related the following anecdote.  He had been asked to interview some job applicants and make a recommendation for hiring.  His top recommendation was technically excellent but spoke "low" Spanish.  The second best applicant was technically fair but spoke Spanish elegantly.  His boss rejected the best applicant and hired the second best guy.  He had been swayed by his prejudice in favor of those who speak well.  After a few days on the job, it became clear the second best guy couldn't do the work.  The boss then made a job offer to the best guy he had previously rejected.

[Woody]

Can you find the grammatical error in that paragraph? 


I've heard school teachers use absolutely horrid English grammar. It's a little like tattoos - once a badge of the underclass, or discrete reminders of wartime service, ghetto English and tattoos are now elevated to being trendy. I do think that trend will pass though, and those badges of honor will become a convenient filter for hiring managers everywhere - a simple way of sorting the wheat from the chaff.

One, two if you want to get really picky. They are so minor that they generally go unnoticed unless you look very hard. They don't jump out at you and throw your brain off track. That is the advantage of generally well formed sentences. Minor mistakes get automatically corrected as you read. It is when you make blatant mistakes that you really start to notice. I see minor mistakes all the time, typos really, in books. Those mistakes are so minor that they are difficult to catch. This is a major annoyance whenever a conversation turns to grammatical or punctuation errors, it causes you to pay much more attention and catch things you would not normally notice. (Strictly speaking, that should have been two sentences, but it is more of a grey zone in conversation.)

My personal bad habit is the abuse of parentheses. I overuse them and often go back to tweak sentences and take them out entirely. I only scored 99% on my college entrance examination for the English portion.

I think if I was a hiring manager, I would ask applicants to describe some simple concept or object in writing. Nothing extravagant, just a paragraph or two. That is all you need from most people to weed out the really lost causes.

[braziliangirl]

Can you find the grammatical error in that paragraph? 

That's why I said if the guy doesn't speak English at least as well as me, that's something to worry about. I never said my English was perfect.

[V_Man]

Yes I make mistakes all the time. Mostly because I can only type so fast. However I also don't think that is the issue. If I type an error to my girl and I don't notice it she only has to ask and I'll correct it immediately. She does the same. This doesn't happen every other sentance so it's not a biggie. I think we are refering to people that habitually make errors and a lot of the time are not even aware of them.
 
When I started chatting to girls online, their use of Spanish was often very bad. I'm sure they chat online that way all the time. However I explained in my profile that I only had limited Spanish so I think it illistrated a lack of empathy. They seemed to think because I could have a simple conversation fluently, that meant I'd understand other things like a native speaker. This was a pattern.

In the long term it becames even more important. It's hard enough when both people write prefectly in their own languages.

[benjio]

Learning multiple other languages, studying to be an ESL Professor and being a volunteer ESL Tutor has taught me one thing: Languages are living, breathing creatures that are constantly evolving. Some of what most English Teachers would describe as grammatical errors these days will surely become gramatical rules in the distant future. Imagine how us modern day English Speakers would sound speaking to someone that learned English during the Elizabethan Era.
 
I had a party at my apartment once while in college. I had a friend there that was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. I had another friend there from Laurel, Mississippi. When I introduced the two, they realized they were the only ones at the party that brought a six pack of Stone IPA Beer, so they naturally begin to converse about micro-brewing. What followed was something I will never forget. Two American Men, both fluent English Speakers, college students nonetheless, that for the most part could not understand each other. The evolution of the English Language within just the United States during only 300 years has almost produced two entirely different dialects. In another 300, if New York was somehow completely isolated from Mississippi, two different people from each region of the U.S. trying to communicate may not understand each other at all.
 
I agree that it's a shame a lot of people in the United States can't write or speak what we currently accept as grammatically correct English. But the use of "Bad English" and the subsequent evolution of the English Language is inevitable. Sit there and complain all you want. You might as well complain about having to die. In 100 years we'll all be gone and no one with give a [snip] about what we perceived as proper grammar. In 500 years no one will even remember and there will be some teenager in a high school classroom struggling to understand what the hell Stephen King was writing about. Anyone here understand Shakespeare the first time they read it?...didn't think so.

[Jeff S]

That's why I said if the guy doesn't speak English at least as well as me, that's something to worry about. I never said my English was perfect.

Sure. I don't expect my wife to speak English as well as I, either.

[Brazilophile]

I agree that it's a shame a lot of people in the United States can't write or speak what we currently accept as grammatically correct English. But the use of "Bad English" and the subsequent evolution of the English Language is inevitable. Sit there and complain all you want. You might as well complain about having to die. In 100 years we'll all be gone and no one with give a [snip] about what we perceived as proper grammar. In 500 years no one will even remember and there will be some teenager in a high school classroom struggling to understand what the hell Stephen King was writing about. Anyone here understand Shakespeare the first time they read it?...didn't think so.

 I strongly disagree with your conclusion, Benjio.  You are comparing apples to cotton; there is no valid comparison whatsoever.  The course of the evolution of language 500 years ago, or even 100 years ago, is VASTLY different from that course over the next 100 years.  The key determining differences are the level of literacy and the degree of interconnection.
 
 100 years ago, far fewer people than today went to school to the same extent as today and became literate.  A person learned a language through speaking it with those around him or her.  In that environment, languages evolve as you describe.  Today, in developed countries, most of a country's population is literate.  They learn language and grammar mostly through reading books and writing assignments in schools.  Especially today when vast amounts of reading and writing is done digitally over the Internet as you and I are doing right now on this very forum.   
 
 Once language is written down in books and the majority of a population is learning that language through reading those books,  the rate of its evolution slows dramatically.   Once it is written digitally, its evolution effectively stops!  Paper books can be burned.  Digital books will remain for as along as civilization uses electricity. 
 
 This is especially true for the English language which has become a lingua franca for much of the world.  English is the language of international air travel.  To be permitted to fly internationally, a pilot must be able to speak standard English.  English is the language of computer science.  English is the language of advanced sciences like astrophysics.  This is due to the dominance of the US in research into these areas, particularly computer science, robotics, medicine, and pharmaceuticals.  Consider that IV and BG are practicing their English skills with educated native speakers of English through this international forum.  It is precisely due to this interconnectedness that the isolation required for developing 'Brooklynese' and 'Laurelese' is no longer met in developed countries.
 
 Language will evolve as it has over a millenium, ONLY in those parts of the worlds that are currently undeveloped and likely to stay that way, (rural Afghanistan comes to mind), and among those who do not become literate making them unable to participate with the well-trained in the digital world.  As Woody wrote, skill in writing standard English will become a litmus test for participation in the advanced world (if it hasn't become so already). 
 

[Alabamaboy!]

Now you're on to something BG and Woody!
 
From my experience, if someone isn't very proficient in his/her own native language, then he/she will have a very difficult time learning a foreign language.
 
If you don't care enough about your own language to use proper grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc., then you are a lost cause when it comes to becoming proficient in a foreign language, IMHO.
 
So for you Latina chasers, have you found that the ones who are weak in the proper use of Spanish are also having great difficulty in learning English?
 
 
Ray

Yes, I agree that the ones who are weak in Spanish for sure are going to be weak in learning English. But also most of the ones who are strong in Spanish are also going to have a really tough time as well (in my experience). Again, almost all my experience has been on the Coast and Cali.

[Jeff S]

I don't think anyone here is lamenting the evolution of English - new words and new usage will be introduced. I was only pointing out that those unwilling or unable to speak or write standard English through ignorance or laziness will have less opportunities in the job market, love life, and life in general. They essentially block themselves out of job that requires interface with others, especially management, and block themselves from a portion of the female population. That BG admits to using it as a filter is evidence that this is true.

[benjio]

Brazilophile,
 
You posted this first:
 

FWIW, I strongly agree with the last 5 posts by Whitey, V_Man, BG, Woody, and Ray.  It makes me wonder where the US is headed because the MAJORITY of recent high school graduates CANNOT write (or speak) English clearly and coherently in a grammatically correct manner!  Florida had state-wide school exams recently (called FCAT) and the pass rate was 50%.

Then you go on a rant arguing that because more people go to school these days this problem shouldn't exist and language won't inevitably change like it has in the past. I'm confused. You're supposedly disagreeing with me, but you yourself stated that "the MAJORITY of recent high school graduates CANNOT write or speak English." They have absolutely no problem communicating with each other though...think about that. Apparently what you think should be working against this isn't and your own observations are proof of that.
 
All I did was address your comment, "It makes me wonder where the US is headed..." I gave my opinion for where I think it's headed and your reasoning behind disagreeing with my comments is describing how an education system you obviously believe to be inefficient will somehow prevent the evolution of the English Language from happening? Remember a few years ago when there were schools considering the addition of "Ebonics" to their language curriculum? Where do you think ideas like this come from?
 
Walk me there slow...I don't get it. 
 

I don't think anyone here is lamenting the evolution of English - new words and new usage will be introduced. I was only pointing out that those unwilling or unable to speak or write standard English through ignorance or laziness will have less opportunities in the job market, love life, and life in general. They essentially block themselves out of job that requires interface with others, especially management, and block themselves from a portion of the female population. That BG admits to using it as a filter is evidence that this is true.

Jeff, I agree with you 100%. The worse part is this affects the "have-nots" for the most part. People that would have the opportunity to excel and improve upon their quality of life in the U.S. cannot because of their lack of proper English Speaking and Writing Abilities.