Learning English

[V_Man]

What have you guys found with your girl's learning English?
It seems to me that many Latins really struggle to learn or improve their English in their own country. I'm not talking about how much they learn at school.
There are private schools that are basically bilingual. However for everyone else it's highly variable.

Hence, chances are your girl will know very little English.
Things develop, and then she needs to learn English properly.

1. How much does she really apply herself to this task in her own country?
2. What results does she achieve, in her own country?
3. How well does she progress in your English speaking country?

There have been a few stories here about how girls have made very little progress learning English while in Colombia. Even with courses and resources provided for them.

[DesmondID]

My wife went through several courses in Colombia (Medellin). I was not overly impressed with the results. One class handed out a thick notebook of cassettes which I imagine they have been copying and recreating since the 1980's. I think the best they achieve is to introduce some words and concepts that help later on when they are learning it again.

It is only in the last month (she has been in the US over 5 months now) that she seems to be recognizing spoken words and becoming interested in learning more.

We returned from a visit to Colombia (outside of Bogota) two weeks ago.. I was only there about 9 days but in that time I did not run into a single person that understood English. I see the commercials and the English schools everywhere so I imagine a lot of people are learning very little.

[fathertime]

I did not push my woman into learning English.  I made suggestions and when she decided to be motivated she started taking classes and now is excelling.    We always spoke in Spanish until the last few months and now suddenly we are talking more English than Spanish.   I think the limited reality of living here and only being able to communicate comfortably with other Spanish speakers sunk in, and hence whaalaa English became a priority. 
 
Before she came here she had taken some classes in Colombia, and I’m convinced they gave her a surprisingly good foundation.   


Fathertime! 

[Researcher]

  I am quite proud of my lady. She arrived here about four years ago, started studying English and hasn't quit. She got her GED. I don't think it was all that necessary but she got into college(just started) without any trouble. It is a 4 year university(a major one here in this state). We will see how she does.


       Researcher

[fathertime]

  I am quite proud of my lady. She arrived here about four years ago, started studying English and hasn't quit. She got her GED. I don't think it was all that necessary but she got into college(just started) without any trouble. It is a 4 year university(a major one here in this state). We will see how she does.


       Researcher

Old boy, you are right to be proud, that is a great accomplishment for your lady!  I bet she does well in the university, because it is quite  obvious she is highly motivated.   


Fathertime! 

[Jeff S]

I had the same experience as you FT, we spoke Japanese at first then gradually over several years it's shifted so it's now just English, unless we're in situations where we'd like to conceal what we're talking about or in a Japanese group.

[Kiltboy1]

There are tons of Latinos in my city and the credit union my wife is manager of is  a Latin Credit Union. You would think her English would be bad being around Latinos all day, but she learned very well because she had a good teacher  , me. I refuse to speak Spanish in the home, so she had to learn English to talk to me. I am fluent in Spanish and her English was not so good, so it was a tough love lesson that would not work for everyone, but my wife tells me she most likely would have never stuck to English had I not made her out of necessity to communicate with me. Lessons at schools even here do no good if one is not willing to put the practice time outside of the classroom, which I find many Latinos not willing to do.
 
KB

[Brazilophile]

I have generally been disappointed with the level of English skill among Latinas (and Latinos).  However, I don't blame them.  I blame the administrators who run the schools and departments that teach English.  I looked into this more in Brazil than Colombia or other countries.
 
 Due to very low wages, English schools have difficulty recruiting native speakers of English who are trained in teaching English as a second language.  They take almost anyone, including non-native speakers.
 
 Brazilians that I spoke with about learning English seemed enthralled by the courses that teach English through singing.  I got the impression that such courses are very popular.  The problem I found is that when people instructed in this way speak English, they pronounce words as they would be when sung but not when spoken.  In addition, they added a rhythm to their speech that was like the beat of a song which conflicted with the rhythm that reflects the content of the speech the speaker wants to emphasize.  I found it difficult to listen to for more than a few minutes.
 
 When I was in elementary school, the English curriculum included the roots of the English language.  We know, or should know,  that English is an amalgam of several other languages, notably German, Latin, and Greek.  My teachers emphasized that the reason there are so many exceptions to grammar rules is because grammar rules usually apply only to one root of English and not the others.  Few Americans of the younger generation seem to grasp this and even fewer Latinos.  They get the Latin roots of English but then try to apply those generalities to the German and Greek roots as well.  The Latinos seemed oblivious to the non-Latin roots of English.
 
 The schools seem to emphasize speech, over reading and writing English.  This is extremely limiting because it is only through reading and writing that language skills improve over time.  I met many Latinos who English skills declined fairly quickly after a course because they were not speaking enough English for practice and hadn't learned to read English well enough to continue getting exposure to English on their own.

I think it takes a person who is very serious about learning English to surmount these institutional barriers and do all that it takes for long enough to become almost fluent.  The ones I heard were serious enough were business executives.  I met a US ex-pat who taught conversational English to Brazilian business executives.  He said that these were (mostly) men who had very good to excellent reading and writing skills in English but their employers wanted them to be able to go abroad to the US and Europe and participate verbally in meetings and negotiations with non-Portuguese speakers.  These guys had the backing of their employers to get around those institutional barriers. 
 
 

[Alabamaboy!]

There are tons of Latinos in my city and the credit union my wife is manager of is  a Latin Credit Union. You would think her English would be bad being around Latinos all day, but she learned very well because she had a good teacher  , me. I refuse to speak Spanish in the home, so she had to learn English to talk to me. I am fluent in Spanish and her English was not so good, so it was a tough love lesson that would not work for everyone, but my wife tells me she most likely would have never stuck to English had I not made her out of necessity to communicate with me. Lessons at schools even here do no good if one is not willing to put the practice time outside of the classroom, which I find many Latinos not willing to do.
 
KB

My 2 experiences with long term relationships with Latinas have been like yours. I really believe if I had not done the "tough love" method as you described above, neither of them would have learned English, ever, under any circumstances. Both of them had been given all of the tools, opportunities to learn, but simply did not participate or apply themselves nearly enough to make any significant progress, whatsoever.

After the smoke cleared when it finally dawned on them that they absolutely had no other option, if they were to continue the relationship with me, then they both buckled down and learned very quickly.

The relationship with the first Colombiana did not work out in the end, and she ended up marrying a German guy and is living there now. And guess what? She is studying her ass off on the German. So I think she learned her lesson well.

All that being said, I think everyone is different and what works well with one might not work at all with the next.

[benjio]

My 2 experiences with long term relationships with Latinas have been like yours. I really believe if I had not done the "tough love" method as you described above, neither of them would have learned English, ever, under any circumstances. Both of them had been given all of the tools, opportunities to learn, but simply did not participate or apply themselves nearly enough to make any significant progress, whatsoever.

After the smoke cleared when it finally dawned on them that they absolutely had no other option, if they were to continue the relationship with me, then they both buckled down and learned very quickly.

The relationship with the first Colombiana did not work out in the end, and she ended up marrying a German guy and is living there now. And guess what? She is studying her ass off on the German. So I think she learned her lesson well.

All that being said, I think everyone is different and what works well with one might not work at all with the next.

I had the same experience with my ex from Barranquilla and another young lady I dated for a while in Pereira. I started off paying for classes for her at Jamie's. At the time Jamie had an excellent English instructor...a young lady that was born in France and was fluent in English, French, Spanish and Italian. She had some very effective methods of building mental relationships between Spanish and English ideas so her students could remember words. My ex somehow found out about how much the classes were costing me and felt guilty about me spending that much money. She was convinced she could learn just as effectively at one of the universities in Barranquilla. She eventually enrolled in an English class at one of the schools, made an "A", but somehow still couldn't have a simple conversation. Next we tried an institute in Barranquilla called El Coe (complete rip off by the way) and still nothing.
 
It's not enough to take classes for a language if you really want to become fluent. You have to immerse yourself in it. Use it as much as possible. It's not only the lack of motivation that makes learning English so difficult for a lot of Latin Americans. There's really not any situation where an English Student will actually use English outside of the classroom setting. I learned Spanish because here in Houston I had a million Mexican Americans to practice with and I used every opportunity to do so. In Brazil, amongst the elite, knowing three or sometimes even more languages is pretty common. For a Brazilian to be considered for an office job (even a receptionist) with my company in Brazil, they have to be fluent in English, Spanish and Portuguese. But again, most of these people come from rich families and have spent a lot of time outside of Brazil...usually in the United States.
 
If a guy asked my advice these days, I'd tell him to wait until he actually got his girlfriend stateside to worry about her learning English. It's good if they can learn some fundamentals before coming, but for what the average gringo spends on trying to teach his girlfriend English you might as well just wait until she gets here and realizes she can't communicate with anyone and is forced to learn.

[Alabamaboy!]

I had not so much luck with my girl at Jamie's. So during one of my trips there, she asked me to come with her to the class. The classes were in the main sala of his place. It was not really well lit, we were just seated on sofa. And during the session there were a lot of girls coming in and out, and some guys who were utilizing Jamie's services also. So it was not a really good environment for anyone to learn anything, especially a young Colombiana. That girl ended up making excellent progress with the use of computer programs, writing in English every day to me, and talking about an hour each night on the phone in English.

My wife did super poorly with the computer learning, writing the letters, talking on the phone, private one on one lessons given from a very good female instructor. But had some fair success with Colombo School in BAQ (although nothing near as good success as I would expect with 5 day a week classes).

I agree with Benjio who mentioned that he would not even waste the $ on the classes while they were still in Colombia. It makes some good sense to me, knowing what I do now about the scene on the Coast. If I did not have young kids at home, I would not even sweat it at all and definitely would not risk the cash again either. There is a lot of time for that stuff once they get here to the States.

[V_Man]

This information is pure gold for me guys. Over the last six months I have discovered the hard way the same thing you are telling me. I was paying for her to attend a good English school in Bogota. After one or two months she said the others in the class were not attentive and this was a problem for her because she found it difficult to learn even wiothout distractions. So then she had one on one lessons. She has a serious block with actually practicing anything she has learned.

After months of lessons, I really can't see that she has learnt anything. Maybe a few words maximum. I think probably the information is going into her brain, but since it is not comming back out again, I don't see any real learning. Hence now I'm not paying for any lessons.

I spent 3 weeks with her. She said less than 10 words in English in that whole time.
She knows she will not be able to communicate with my family or anyone here without English.
I have encouraged her gently, but no results.

I came to the conclusion that:
(a) she is not going to learn much until she is here and
(b) I need to force her to speak English with me just a little bit.

[whitey]

My wife's desire and ability to learn English BEFORE getting married and moving to Canada was an important indicator to me (rightly or wrongly) of how much she valued our relationship and how well she would be able to adapt to life here.  We are not planning to have children in the near future, so neither of us wanted her sitting around the house with nothing to do except eat bon bons, watch telenovas, and wait for papi to come home and amuse her.  If she had been unwilling or unable to learn English, it would have been a significant source of worry and a red flag for me.


Fortunately, she is a serious person and works hard, so this was never an issue for us.  She studied in Barranquilla at OG Entertainment (cost was $COP150,000 per month) and really liked their teaching methodology which is less grammar based and more modern/interactive ... focused on computer learning as well as conversational classes.  It's closed now, however.  I think their branch in Bogota may still be open, but don't know.  The fact that my wife faithfully attended these classes either early in the morning or after work was another strong positive indicator for me.


She got a reasonable foundation, but when she was in Colombia we probably only talked about 10% of the time at most in English, and never in English when I was actually in Colombia with her.  However, I warned her in advance that as soon as she got off the plane here, we would be talking almost exclusively in English until she was fluent. After that, the idea would be to speak half and half at home.  It was a little weird at first making the transition from almost all Spanish to almost all English, but she's done really well.


My city and Canada in general has very good, FREE English programs for all recent immigrants ... even paying for bus fare to get to/from the classes.  And beyond that, the learning is focused on Canadian culture, history, and job hunting in addition to grammar.  My wife is in school from 9 until 2 every week day, and then she usually studies 1 or 2 more hours at home.  She is also now reading books in English, and LOVES our libraries here.  Fortunately for me, her favorite book topics are sex and positive thinking ...


She has applied herself very well, and has progressed in the last 7 months from an average of level 4 to between 6 and 7.  It will probably be another 3 months until she completes all 8 levels offered, then she'll start looking for work.

[Jeff S]

My wife enrolled in the essentially free ESL classes after she moved here, though she could read and write English somewhat when she arrived - conversation was a different story. She enjoyed them and made friends of all nationalities - so they had to converse in English. It wasn't just a clique of each nationality - though interestingly most of the the Mexicans all seemed to separate themselves from the group - but the South American Spanish speakers joined in with the Asians and Middle Easterners. In my wife's class were people from all over and she became long term friends with a Peruana married to a gringo who lived in the very high-rent district, and Indian lady, two Arab speakers, several Koreans, a Mexicana who married a very well off Mexican-American local politician, and several Eastern Europeans. My wife did very well and after several years passed the TOEFL exam (Test of English as a Foreign Language - a requirement to enroll in college in the US.) Her conversation lagged somewhat, but she kept practicing and now is pretty fluent, though she still speaks with a fairly strong accent. It may take time, but if she's motivated, she'll get there. My wife just didn't have a talent for foreign languages. My daughter certainly did, as she was speaking fluent English in a year, lost her accent in 2, and was in AP English a few years later, along with becoming fluent in French in three years. It comes easier for some than others, and a lot of it is age related.

[utopiacowboy]

Kiltboy and Whitey have the right idea but it's easier said than done. I'm very impressed that they were able to make the switch.

My wife has lived in the US almost 10 years. She is a US citizen - she was able to pass the test by forcing the examiner to speak slowly and clearly. She is a production manager at the Toyota plant in San Antonio where she is able to speak Spanish nearly all of the time.

We continue to communicate exclusively in Spanish and we probably always will. I can communicate at a pretty high level in Spanish. I can read Spanish novels, converse with anyone and watch Spanish language movies and TV without subtitles. Sometimes when I talk on the phone with my sisters-in-law and they don't know who answered, they mistake me for one of my wife's sons. Whenever we make an attempt to use English the conversation is so slow and at such a low level, it takes any pleasure in conversing away. I blame myself for this situation much more than my wife.

[whitey]

I should add that Nazly does not have any particular aptitude for languages and she's not a spring chicken anymore (36 years old).  It doesn't come easy for her. We have friends here from Barranquilla with 3 daughters between ages 8 and 10 ... at the end of one year you can hardly tell them apart vocally from any other Canadian kid ... amazing! 


Nazly has a very strong accent and maybe always will, and has a lot of difficultly learning how to pronounce English sounds (even when I repeat them many times, trying to show her the position of my tongue).  But ... she is a hard worker and very patient ... that is her strength.


I'm thinking about seeing whether we can get her working with a speech-language pathologist up at the university ... maybe a grad student or something ... once she graduates from the English classes.  I remember Robert mentioning his wife had worked with one.

[Kiltboy1]

Quote Whitey: She has that sex and positive thinking"
 
Yes Senior ! Exactly why we went south !
I tried the laid back approach to English and not so much success. When I went all Nuclear and said I will not speak anymore in Spanish(Again, I am fluent), she fell on her face, ass, buttocks or whatever else you would say. I stuck to my guns and never spoke Spanish again to her and it has been 6 years now and while I will speak Spanish at party's we go to with people there, I will speak to her in English. This does not work for everyone , but I was determined not to fail her or our life together by having problems with the different languages. It worked great for our family.
 
KB

[fathertime]

It appears to me that the ones that have it  right are the guys that 1.  Pick a woman that they want to be a go getter and learn English…and the ladies fulfill that role.  2.  The guys who want a woman to be more interested in creating a home/kids…and their ladies fulfill that role and learn English as in a more leisurely manner.
If a man/woman has certain expectations and those are not what he/she winds up with, that is when it is ‘wrong’ and when problems can arise, until things are sorted out, if that is possible.   I suppose at the point where V-man is, he must try to determine if his novia is going to be fulfilling the expectations he has (regarding language), and doing it timely and in relative good cheer, assuming that is what he is seeking.


Fathertime! 

[V_Man]

Fortunately for me, her favorite book topics are sex and positive thinking ...

My novia's favourite topics are sex and cooking.

And people ask us "Why Latinas?"!!! jajajaja!

 OK back to English.
FT mentions my expectations in regard to language. I agree that the man's expectation makes a vast difference.

The fiscal realities mean that we are looking to build our life in an English speaking country. Not an English speaking country with countless millions of Spanish speakers. An English only country. If it was financially practical for me to go and live in Colombia then things would be different. However considering what we both want from life, that is not at all realistic. Hence basically just to function with a normal life, she needs conversational English.

She doesn't need to have that level next week. However it needs to be an attainable goal for her. The time frame is not something that I have expectations around.

It took me ages to learn Spanish and I am a long, long way from being fluent. A very very long way....

Hence what I'm looking for is progress and a path for her English development.

I've come to the conclusion that she needs to be here and forced to interact with people. And not just a small group of latin imports either.

[SkyNorth]

Does anyone have experience with Rosetta Stone?
 
I just hear it is effective, but I have no experience with their courses.

[V_Man]

BTW, I hear what you guys are saying about refusing to speak Spanish in order to force her to use English. However just between us guys, I don't think I could give up the Spanish bedroom talk.

Nup! I just don't see a "no Spanish" rule lasting more then 24 hours - absolute maximum.

I'm going to have to find some middle ground.

[Researcher]

  I thought about Rosetta Stone software for my wife but I decided finding a good ESL class for her would be better. These Colombian ladies are social and I figured getting her in a class with other people would kill two birds with one stone. As far as just learning English I have heard good things about Rosetta Stone. It is supposed to be one of the best things on the market. When I was looking at it I was going to get the British English version so my wife would pick up the British accent! hahaha! just kidding.


           Researcher

[V_Man]

 Every person is different in this regard. However if I had to generalise I would suspect self learning is very difficult for most Colombianas.
Some or all of the following could apply to your girl:
(a) As Researcher says they are social animals
(b) most Colomblians have a limited amount of personal private space and time. (they don't live in a house with a spare bedroom/study like you do)
(c) most Colombians work long hours
(d) Colombia doesn't have a highly literate society. They are all educated and literate. It's just that reading and writing is not such a big part of their daily lives as it is in most developed countries. Therefore it's harder to get back into that habit than it probably is for you.

On top of all that, my personal view is that most people anywhere need some interaction to learn a language. Unless you have a copy of her study materials, it is going to be difficult for you to give her the focused interaction for that purpose.

Having said all that, I personally know a Colombiana very well who self teaches herself complex topics all the time. When I think about it she has probably been that way all her life. She could probably teach herself almost anything she put her mind to.

[Alabamaboy!]

Does anyone have experience with Rosetta Stone?
 
I just hear it is effective, but I have no experience with their courses.

I used it for Spanish, but I did not think it was so great. I did much better with regular grammar based programs, writing, dictionary, watching movies with Spanish subtitles then pausing and looking up words that I did not know.

[benjio]

I used it for Spanish, but I did not think it was so great. I did much better with regular grammar based programs, writing, dictionary, watching movies with Spanish subtitles then pausing and looking up words that I did not know.

I bought Rosetta to get started and can't say I was displeased with the purchase. I actually wish I would have used it a lot more for Portuguese. It's a great way to build a solid foundation. I can't imagine anyone becoming fluent in a second language using only a computer program though...no matter which one it is. Best way to learn is to go to Spain or any Latin American country and just getting out and meeting people.