Trading Dignity for a Wife

[braziliangirl]

BG where you been?

I'm around, reading what you guys are writing. And kind of bummed because I wrote a long reply to your PM, only to find out in the end that you mailbox is full. :/

[braziliangirl]

“that we can't really trust men to take care of us. They will spend all their salaries drinking, not pay the house bills and sometimes even beat us. They will judge us and call us cheap if we don't offer to pay the bill on a date (note that I didn't say split). They will stood you up on Valentine's day to be with another woman when you are the official girlfriend and spent the whole week planning the date. They will not open doors. They will not make any effort to make us feel special. Just to name a few issues. (And in case you're wondering, yes, some of those things actually happened to me.)”
 
 
BG – that really sucks… The only thing I can say about that is how old are these “men” you are dating. Sounds like stuff I used to do when I was 15 (the stand up stuff and being mean to girls – because I could and foe no other reason). They sound like boys.

Well, I don't date them anymore. I stopped dating in Brazil a long time ago. Funny thing is that when I was younger, I used to receive better treatment from men and also see better behavior around me.

@BG, I remember when I gave you that advice and I honestly wondered if it was a cultural or a personality thing, since we are all clumped together under the "latin" tag it sounded odd to me, but after a while I realized how different our cultures are, it makes me sad to hear those things about brazilian men, chivalry is alive and well for the most part here in Mexico, it is something I am used to and very thankful for but not something I would take for granted, I've seen how men that have always been perfect gentlemen around me act as jerks with other women. Being loyal is another story, but at the very least over here the "real" girlfriend WILL be treated with some respect, the reason I say some is because men will still cheat but if they love her out of that "respect" they will be discrete about a fling here and there and she will always have priority.


Now I feel I am being too greedy with my search! I've always said men over here are not so bad and my 2 best friends are both males who are extremely smart and mature beyond their years, above average education and decent looking, any woman will be lucky to have them, they know very well that if a woman dared to break their hearts they would have to deal with me but I know them enough to know that I don't really have to worry about it and have lectured them both more than once about being faithful to their long time girlfriends, my mother asked me once why would I choose to see them as family instead of men even if they are younger being such a good catch, it all comes down to faithfulness for me I guess but can't help to admire all those other rare qualities they have and be proud of being their friend knowing that friendship is the best relationship we could ever get to have.

You made me wonder, IV. If men are so good there in Mexico, why are you looking for a gringo? And do you really think if you decided to date one if your friends they would cheat on you?

[aconcepts]

I am sorry. The powers that be either refuse to let me send and receive personal mail or they don't care to fix the problem. I don't know I have sent mail but either they do not receive it or just don't care or simply laugh at that "Pain in the a$$" AC... Jajajaja


Look you can mail me at cr4me1234@yahoo.com. Its a throw away account that i check rarely so all you spammers have at it, I use it for LAC replies. I do check it twice a week but let me know here if you are going to mail and I will check it same day.


I am a writer and it sucks to put time and effort into something and it disappears. Do you have the box checked that says save a copy to your out going mail box? If so check it and maybe you can recover it.


I know what you mean about being treated better when you were younger jajajajajajajajajaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!! That is for sure...


Youth is waster on the young. yeah young a beautiful with no idea of what is important... Young, dum and full of...


If I knew what I know now and had the body I had then, I would rule the world!!!!!!!!! Ho ho ho!!! not that I would want to but you know what I mean...

[InnocentVixen]

So many interesting posts while I was not checking the forum!

What should the manual include?
What is the list of things you need to know?

I never really thought about it in those terms, it's just the way AC described his reaction to the book that made me wonder if there was one out there for the type of man I am looking for, I would guess a good start would be where to find them and how to get their attention, after that I am pretty sure I could figure it out myself

IV, Is it hard to find this man in Mexico, the US, or anywhere?

I would say it is hard to find anywhere but due the kind of man I am looking for it is even harder to find in my own country and borderline impossible to find in Brazil after what BG mentioned about men over there I am horrified! at the end I am looking for the right man for me not just a man, so it only makes sense that there won't be many that match out there. I've had some deep conversations with a few men, it's a bittersweet moment when I realize I have found a good man but not the right one for me, I've even been in a situation where I found myself a good man that sounds right for me, everything is going great and then oh surprise, life happens, things change and I am left still wanting the same. In a way sometimes I think that when that happens it's because the other person was a bit of a dreamer, got carried away and one day they wake up and realized that the dream was not their own and since it doesn't quite come in a silver platter it is not worth the effort. Perhaps that is the part that scares them off, I know what I want and I am not afraid to move things along to make it work.


Of course I have found plenty more that just want casual conversation, those that like to play tag with one line emails, I find that boring but if they say they are better on the phone or in person then I expect them to prove it by calling me or showing up in a very near future because otherwise it would become petty hard for me to stay in touch.


@AC, I am pretty sure you are well aware that you are a hard guy to ignore, sometimes in a good way and sometimes in a not so good way I have mentioned this before but I can be very blunt, honest to a fault or however you want to call it, so I guess there are weird ones like us everywhere

if you are a radical man demeaning feminist you will think the author is the anti-christ!

Ah, now that got my attention!! I have actually been tempted to look for those manuals they had for housewives in the US in the 60's, not only for the vintage illustrations (though I do like them) but because I love the idea of how clear and organized things were, almost like making an art out of it and of course something that feminists seem to find offending for some reason, I think a mix of that with my traditional mexican upbringing would result in a very happy husband, or at least I hope so because I love the idea of it!

we loved to hate each other

This made me smile because it has crossed my mind before that you seem to enjoy some friendly rivalry and feel a bit sorry for the ones that take the bait and get too serious while you are probably laughing at their rants


@Jeff: ahhh yes!! my friend was super tiny about 1.50m if I remember correctly it is rare for mexican standards to find a true petite, I consider myself short yet not petite because... well, some parts of me are very womanly (over here petite is considered child-like proportions, short, slender/skinny no curves) and as you guys know our indigenous women are reaaally short but somewhat thick so not really petite.


@Brazilophile: I remember reading a few years back the hormones in the states where so strong in chicken that some young men would develop "man boobs" even if they were not overweight and as soon as they stopped eating chicken the effect would fade, also I was reminded about this documental, tried to find it in youtube but couldn't find the original, but here is a news version of it that includes the experiment about reactions people have to men being violent to women and viceversa, I've always been against feminists if only because I can't think of it as anything else but sexist, why would anyone be entitled to disrespect someone just because of gender? we are different, that does not mean one is better than the other, same with racism, it irks me when someone demands extra rights just because of their color, I understand that someone shouldn't be judged on sex or color but I think having exceptions and special rules for them puts the rest at disadvantage and I see no fairness in that.


http://www.youtube.com/embed/LlFAd4YdQks

[InnocentVixen]

You made me wonder, IV. If men are so good there in Mexico, why are you looking for a gringo? And do you really think if you decided to date one if your friends they would cheat on you?

Compared to your description of brazilian men they are certainly wonderful... in fact if you are not too bothered by the fact that they would cheat on you I would suggest you consider mexicans too!! but like I said before, being faithful for me is a priority, as well as being good fathers and this 2 things have nothing to do with how great friends they can be but makes a world of difference in a husband, for me at least.


I think the moment I made up my mind about finding myself a gringo was while I was shopping and got separated from my parents to look for something at home depot a few years ago in San Diego, I saw the most handsome man, alone, taking care of his little girl which such loving care, I don't think I've ever seen a mexican man alone with kids let alone a daughter, even with sons the difference is huge!!! I have mentioned this before but when a man's wife passes away over here, the kids usually end up being raised by the grandparents or someone else, I never really thought about it much until I saw that man and realized that with that kind of father, if something was ever to happen to me my child would not have to suffer the loss of both parents, there is no such thing as single fathers here in Mexico, they just start over another family.


Then I started paying more attention and noticed how really handsome men who seemed good natured were with unattractive women and some even with rude ones, so then I thought, if I had a man like that I wouldn't let him tend to the kids all by himself after what it probably was a long day at work, if woman like that can get someone like him then why wouldn't I be able to? and to think the guy would probably even be thankful of my attentions instead of taking them for granted, sounded like heaven to me.


About my friends specifically, I must admit both of them had a crush on me at certain point (hence my mother's question), but I am just not the kind of woman that would steal away a man, not even from the one that hates me, much less from the other one that trusts and respects me. I honestly think those crushes both developed because they knew they could talk to me about anything and I wouldn't complain or judge but that is only because I am their friend, their sister, not the girlfriend! so yes I have no doubt that being in a romantic relationship with them would change the dynamics in a negative way.

[V_Man]

I never really thought about it in those terms, it's just the way AC described his reaction to the book that made me wonder if there was one out there for the type of man I am looking for, I would guess a good start would be where to find them and how to get their attention, after that I am pretty sure I could figure it out myself

What type of man are you looking for? Be specific.

[Brazilophile]

Then I started paying more attention and noticed how really handsome men who seemed good natured were with unattractive women and some even with rude ones, so then I thought, if I had a man like that I wouldn't let him tend to the kids all by himself after what it probably was a long day at work, if woman like that can get someone like him then why wouldn't I be able to? and to think the guy would probably even be thankful of my attentions instead of taking them for granted, sounded like heaven to me.

 The advantage US men have over Mexican or Brazilian men may change over the next generation.  I just saw an interview with an author, Lisa Bloom, about her new book called "Swagger".  It is about how to successfully raise boys in the US in the current environment.  She documents how the school system, law enforcement and the courts, the media, and parents, all take a little chip out of boys as they grow up so that many are incompetent as men when they reach adulthood.  I think she documents as well how the same forces also shore up and encourage girls so that they become confident competent women.  The problem for US society is that it is producing a "scissors crisis" in which there are no confident competent men for the multitudes of such women.  She quoted Frederick Douglass  "It is easier to raise a strong boy than to repair a broken man."  She also warned that the high school drop out rate for boys is a sign of an impending disaster.
 
 Her interview reminded me about another, more academic, book currently making the rounds.  The author is Richard Murray of "The Bell Curve".  I don't remember the title of the book but it is about the socio-economic change in White America from 1960 through 2010.   Murray documents the same things that Bloom does and warns about the same things.  He especially warns about the decline in the marriage rate for Whites and the decline in the labor force participation rate for White men over that 50 year period.  The increasing (relative) absence of (White) men from the family and the (legal?) workforce are indicators of a crumbling, even dissolution, of (White) society in his opinion.
 
 Is it possible for the positive image of the US to decline enough for foreign women to feel that American men are no longer the gold standard of marriage material?  American women already feel this way.  It is why many of us, (at least me), are looking for foreign wives. 
 
 IV and BG,  if you were meeting more and more US men who didn't have secure jobs, if they had jobs, had modest educations (say less than a Bachelor Degree), and you started to realize that you might have to take the lead in working and earning enough to support the household, would you still be so interested in US men or would you take a second look at local (Mexican and Brazilian) men?  I think you wrote earlier, IV, that a deal breaker for you was that a man had roommates or still lived with his parents.  If you met enough men with a deal breaker issue, would you become disillusioned about US men?
 

[braziliangirl]

Compared to your description of brazilian men they are certainly wonderful...

Well, I want to clarify that it wasn't a description of every single man in Brazil. I just gave some examples of things that happened to me and that I saw happening to people. I'm pretty sure those things happen in Mexico too.

in fact if you are not too bothered by the fact that they would cheat on you I would suggest you consider mexicans too!!

No thanks, my standandts for loyalty are pretty high. For example, I don't even talk to separated guys online, because I consider cheating looking for someone before a guy gets divorced.

I think the moment I made up my mind about finding myself a gringo was while I was shopping and got separated from my parents to look for something at home depot a few years ago in San Diego, I saw the most handsome man, alone, taking care of his little girl which such loving care, I don't think I've ever seen a mexican man alone with kids let alone a daughter, even with sons the difference is huge!!!

You see how things can't be so black and white. In Brazil it's common to see dads taking care of his little girls, especially in the newest generations. But that was still true in mine, for example. My father is not perfect, but I was raised with a lot of care from him. I may even ended up a little spoiled because of this, but it also made me the confident woman I am now. Besides taking me to fly kites and swim in the river, he would make songs to tell me how cute I was. He was also the one that taught me that I could still be pretty even though I was not blonde, tall and skinny. From his mouth I've heard the word exotic for the first time.

I have mentioned this before but when a man's wife passes away over here, the kids usually end up being raised by the grandparents or someone else, I never really thought about it much until I saw that man and realized that with that kind of father, if something was ever to happen to me my child would not have to suffer the loss of both parents, there is no such thing as single fathers here in Mexico, they just start over another family.

Here in Brazil it's different. In general, a father would not just simply give their kids away (though I saw it happened), they would seek for help in their families, but still keep full responsibility. Even if they started a new family, they would bring the kids to it. And once again, in my generation, things are much better. I could totally I see my married friends behaving like the guy you described. I have a friend that is so proud of his little girl, he writes me almost everyday to tell me what is new with her. He is divorced and spends half of the week with her, drives her to school everyday, taker her to the park or the mall, most of the times, just the two of them.



So, I'm sorry if I made it sound like all Brazilian men are horrible. I said more than once in this forum that there are good men here. But most of them are taken. I don't discard the idea of marrying a Brazilian guy. I had awesome boyfriends, it was just in the wrong time, like when I was 20 and didn't know much about life. To me, looking outside is just one more option.

Now to make it up for the bad things I said, I'll mention good things that happened to me in the past:

I was serenaded by the most handsome guy in college. By the river. At the sunset. In front of everybody. I was not into him, but it was great anyway. We ended up being good friends up to today.

I was asked to be a someone's girlfriend by the sound of the bossa nova standard Minha Namorada, by Vinicius de Moraes. Does anyone know the lyrics? It's so beautiful, it really can makes a girl cry. Of course I said yes.

Another guy bribed my building's doorman to leave a rose on my apartment's door to say he was sorry for something silly he made. It worked, but just for the first time.

Of course those are small things and what really matters is love and respect. I was never married, so I can't call stories about how a man provided and took care of me when I was sick. It's not common, it's not the rule, especially in the poorer communities, but I see that happening around. Honestly, I think most of my friend's marriages that failed were because of lack of respect by the woman. As we become a more developed country, I can see man learning to be good husbands and fathers, and again, I can tell the difference between lower and middle class here. I'm just afraid they will become too docile. Some, in the effort to being good, can ending up becoming feminine. There isn't much reference of masculinity and femininity in the world right now.

[braziliangirl]

Is it possible for the positive image of the US to decline enough for foreign women to feel that American men are no longer the gold standard of marriage material?  American women already feel this way.  It is why many of us, (at least me), are looking for foreign wives. 

Yes, it is possible. In fact, I'm thinking about giving up looking online already. It is hard to find a gold standard man. Now you make me wonder if it is just online or in real world too. Of course what I'm looking for is not the same thing American women is looking for. I think they have crazy high standard or no standard at all as I'm seeing more and more ads from AW looking for Latino studs.

IV and BG,  if you were meeting more and more US men who didn't have secure jobs, if they had jobs, had modest educations (say less than a Bachelor Degree), and you started to realize that you might have to take the lead in working and earning enough to support the household, would you still be so interested in US men or would you take a second look at local (Mexican and Brazilian) men?  I think you wrote earlier, IV, that a deal breaker for you was that a man had roommates or still lived with his parents.  If you met enough men with a deal breaker issue, would you become disillusioned about US men?
 

It's not that simple since I'm not looking simply for a US man. What makes me look in the US (too) is the fact that the culture is rooted in protestant values, the most important to me being family. But I've never discarded Brazil, Latin America, Europe etc. I'm a Christian and I'm looking for a Christian. I just think it would be crazy to limit myself to my country. Especially because churches here have 100 single women for each single man. And they are generally not attractive. Yes, like you guys, I take that in consideration too and I think that American guys of all colors are more handsome than Brazilian guys. There, I said it.

[aconcepts]

"Yes, like you guys, I take that in consideration too and I think that American guys of all colors are more handsome than Brazilian guys. There, I said it."




jajajaja


That made me laugh out loud!


Its ok to have preferences. Its a sign of the necessity for political correctness that you can no longer express preferences.


It is also political correctness that hinders real conversation about important matters such as race and gender blur.


Political correctness is used as a play by the feminists all the time.


It really saddens me that my country exports such audio visual poison around the world and it is causing cultural dysfunction and hurting children and families, and that includes the extreme feminist agenda.

[Jeff S]

Yes, it is possible. In fact, I'm thinking about giving up looking online already. It is hard to find a gold standard man. Now you make me wonder if it is just online or in real world too. Of course what I'm looking for is not the same thing American women is looking for. I think they have crazy high standard or no standard at all as I'm seeing more and more ads from AW looking for Latino studs.

It's not that simple since I'm not looking simply for a US man. What makes me look in the US (too) is the fact that the culture is rooted in protestant values, the most important to me being family. But I've never discarded Brazil, Latin America, Europe etc. I'm a Christian and I'm looking for a Christian. I just think it would be crazy to limit myself to my country. Especially because churches here have 100 single women for each single man. And they are generally not attractive. Yes, like you guys, I take that in consideration too and I think that American guys of all colors are more handsome than Brazilian guys. There, I said it.

Hmmm. It sounds like the place to go hang out is Brazilian churches where the ratio is 100:1 - unless you are talking about the women in church that aren't attractive...

[braziliangirl]

Hmmm. It sounds like the place to go hang out is Brazilian churches where the ratio is 100:1 - unless you are talking about the women in church that aren't attractive...

Do you really think that out of 100 Brazilian women you can't find at least 70 attractive ones of all colors and sizes? 

Our fame has to have some truth to it.

[braziliangirl]

It really saddens me that my country exports such audio visual poison around the world and it is causing cultural dysfunction and hurting children and families, and that includes the extreme feminist agenda.

Don't be sad, Europe plays a big part on it.

[Jeff S]

Do you really think that out of 100 Brazilian women you can't find at least 70 attractive ones of all colors and sizes? 

Our fame has to have some truth to it.

I hear they all have great butts too. Or is that just a rumor? 

[mambocowboy]

Compared to your description of brazilian men they are certainly wonderful... in fact if you are not too bothered by the fact that they would cheat on you I would suggest you consider mexicans too!! but like I said before, being faithful for me is a priority, as well as being good fathers and this 2 things have nothing to do with how great friends they can be but makes a world of difference in a husband, for me at least.


I think the moment I made up my mind about finding myself a gringo was while I was shopping and got separated from my parents to look for something at home depot a few years ago in San Diego, I saw the most handsome man, alone, taking care of his little girl which such loving care, I don't think I've ever seen a mexican man alone with kids let alone a daughter, even with sons the difference is huge!!! I have mentioned this before but when a man's wife passes away over here, the kids usually end up being raised by the grandparents or someone else, I never really thought about it much until I saw that man and realized that with that kind of father, if something was ever to happen to me my child would not have to suffer the loss of both parents, there is no such thing as single fathers here in Mexico, they just start over another family.


Then I started paying more attention and noticed how really handsome men who seemed good natured were with unattractive women and some even with rude ones, so then I thought, if I had a man like that I wouldn't let him tend to the kids all by himself after what it probably was a long day at work, if woman like that can get someone like him then why wouldn't I be able to? and to think the guy would probably even be thankful of my attentions instead of taking them for granted, sounded like heaven to me.


About my friends specifically, I must admit both of them had a crush on me at certain point (hence my mother's question), but I am just not the kind of woman that would steal away a man, not even from the one that hates me, much less from the other one that trusts and respects me. I honestly think those crushes both developed because they knew they could talk to me about anything and I wouldn't complain or judge but that is only because I am their friend, their sister, not the girlfriend! so yes I have no doubt that being in a romantic relationship with them would change the dynamics in a negative way.

IV, as an American white guy who has found a Colombiana fiancee for marriage, I can say what sealed the deal for me was that I'd never been treated so well by a woman as by my fiancee. From my perspective, Colombian men are very spoiled. My fiancee's girlfriends who are plenty cute have husbands who take such poor care of themselves they would never get a date here in San Diego. When I was over in Colombia nobody would believe I was 40 because I appear in better shape than almost all the 40 year olds over there, but I don't consider myself in great shape by San Diego standards as  I know 50 year old men here who are in great shape too. ..San Diego or "Man Diego" as they call it is a good place for a woman to look for a man because there is a shortage of women (very stuck up I might add) and overabundance of men (partly because of the military presence)...Your chances of finding an appreciative man here who has alot going for him  I would imagine would be better than in Mexico...

[InnocentVixen]

What type of man are you looking for? Be specific.

-Must be:
able to carry a conversation, faithful, compatible with my sense of humor (a bit dark and sarcastic sometimes, can handle some blunt as well as some playful moments), respectful, responsible, affectionate, honest, understanding, assertive, Not a party animal, believe in traditional gender roles, willing to have a child together but not in a rush to have one, attractive to me.

-Great if (but not must): He is old fashioned, 5'10 or above, loves traveling and/or languages, not religious, appreciates art, doesn't smoke, dislikes dancing, in shape, doesn't mind a catholic wedding to make my family happy, has that eye shape I love so much but don't know the name of, wears glasses at least sometimes, he likes nature and prefers small towns to big cities like me.

*note, not feeling so well so my replies might come slow, not ignoring you guys

[aconcepts]

"has that eye shape I love so much but don't know the name of, wears glasses at least sometimes"

IV - you are cute, Really cute. I am almost everything you wrote really, height, traditional, small town, loyal, and i don't cheat once I commit.

That eyes shape? Jajajajajaja - you are as peculiar as me. I have never heard anyone speak of eye shape.... I speak of ITC and even my guy friends look at me strangely (Inner Thigh Clearance) Oh BG don't hate me for being an honest guy in the boys club - hahaha).   Also - See I wear glasses too! Dark ones.


BTW saw Bob Dylan here in Costa Rica last night. I have seen him many many times and last night was one of the best shows ever. It was as if he had taken Extacy! I had no idea how the crowd would respond of how well attended the concert. The crowd was passionate and loud. It was about 80% full with the floor 90% sold out. If you are not a Dylan fan I understand, But if you are into an incredible freedom teacher than you know he hits deep.


Funny. I don't know where these people live in Costa Rica. I mean first of all 90% looked as if they were from San Diego. It was wierd how much the Ticos looked like Americans. Freaked me out really. Made me think hard about how much longer i want to live here.


I like to live where the women dress like women and last night I saw the least sexy women I have ever seen in CR.


Sad....


Also saw many 40+ gringas and made me very uncomfortable... I think I need to move further south... not joking.

[V_Man]

-Must be:
able to carry a conversation, faithful, compatible with my sense of humor (a bit dark and sarcastic sometimes, can handle some blunt as well as some playful moments), respectful, responsible, affectionate, honest, understanding, assertive, Not a party animal, believe in traditional gender roles, willing to have a child together but not in a rush to have one, attractive to me.

-Great if (but not must): He is old fashioned, 5'10 or above, loves traveling and/or languages, not religious, appreciates art, doesn't smoke, dislikes dancing, in shape, doesn't mind a catholic wedding to make my family happy, has that eye shape I love so much but don't know the name of, wears glasses at least sometimes, he likes nature and prefers small towns to big cities like me.

*note, not feeling so well so my replies might come slow, not ignoring you guys

Wow!! Not an exact description of me but very close.

And you say such guys are either not online or not interested in you? Mmmmmmm
I'm going to assume that you don't give guys this shopping list immediately but you allow them to discover some of these things about you. Hence I don't really know why you can't find them online. Aren't there lots of guys with these attributes?
Maybe not.
Come to think of it I never really thought too hard about where women can find men.
One very obvious place is in sports clubs. I play a lot of sport. There is always more men than women and also couples are always hooking up in my local club.
In the online world, I don't really know but I was there and I fit most of what you want so I assume there must be others.

[InnocentVixen]

Hahahahahaha ITC!!! I've never heard that one before!!
I know I can be a bit weird with the eye shape thing but I am very detail oriented and my personality is on the artistic side so I don't usually see things as most people do to start with, for example I can see an old abandoned building and just stare at it and think to myself how beautiful it is and how the fact that with time the weather and nature have in a way taken over enhancing the beauty of it, my city is not old enough to have old buildings or restored ones, the few somewhat old usually get torn down to build new ones instead but I have seen some in my travels, also most people in Mexico think of antiques as old things and not that interested in them while I find them fascinating to look at, I also pay particular attention to handcrafted items even if they are not flashy things.


Giving them a shopping list wouldn't help just as if you guys told the women exactly what you want and then all there was left for them to say is "that's me!" but the conversational skills are usually pretty obvious, the rest show themselves with time and that is probably why it is taking me so long, I am sure there is men like that out there, some of them are online and available is just that they have to be ok with the distance and not focusing on a particular country/area (since even if they were focusing in Mexico it would probably not be around here), not to mention that I should be what they are looking for, it's a two way street after all.


Someone advised me to go "man hunting" in bookstores due the kind of man I like (sorry AC, meant reading glasses!) and that I should even pay attention to the genre they are browsing because that hints to what he likes and that we might have something in common making it easier to start conversation but I just can't see myself doing that, I might be less shy but the idea of me chasing a guy still sounds unnatural to me.

Is it possible for the positive image of the US to decline enough for foreign women to feel that American men are no longer the gold standard of marriage material?  American women already feel this way.  It is why many of us, (at least me), are looking for foreign wives.

Of course it is possible, in my area for example american men have a reputation of coming here to look for a wife because they are either broken hearted with a ton of emotional baggage or want to pretend to be someone they are not (latino wannabe). So women are not exactly eager.


Personally as much as I like some aspects of american men in general compared to the ones in my country as a potential husband I would not assume they are great marriage material just because of the fact they are from the states, women that do probably just think of having a better life and whiter children if it applies. I am way more hopeful of finding what I am looking for over though.
 

IV and BG,  if you were meeting more and more US men who didn't have secure jobs, if they had jobs, had modest educations (say less than a Bachelor Degree), and you started to realize that you might have to take the lead in working and earning enough to support the household, would you still be so interested in US men or would you take a second look at local (Mexican and Brazilian) men?  I think you wrote earlier, IV, that a deal breaker for you was that a man had roommates or still lived with his parents.  If you met enough men with a deal breaker issue, would you become disillusioned about US men?

I see living with his parents as a deal breaker (in american men, not mexican men) because I am aware that culturally it is not the norm over there and I have found that men with roommates tend to be immature and like to party more, if you think about it, it only makes sense that someone who is not responsible enough to pay at least rent by himself behaves more like a frat boy than a man.


Most of the men that contact me that do not bother to read my ad or back in my dating site days, my profile, were of modest education and since I do not have a degree myself they would assume I was a hard working woman who has had a bad life and is looking for a way out of her country, I simply don't reply.


Men that do however take the time to read tend to be educated and with secure jobs or somewhat secure... you know the economy this days! some with impressive paychecks some not so much, also some very hard workers out there that have made their way up without very high education but I still consider educated in a way, they might not have a degree but they are intelligent men who enjoy learning and reading, with a good head on their shoulders that results in a successful career.


I've always said I wouldn't mind working to help out if it was needed, but me taking the lead? I am afraid I am too old fashioned for that, as much as I appreciate american men seem to be more willing to be involved raising the children compared to mexicanos I am not interested in switching roles, I am the type of woman that will not ask my boyfriend to hold my purse, that will be glad when he offers carry the bags if we are shopping... but even if it was only one bag, if it was a girly victoria secret kind of bag I would carry it myself!


Just to make it clear, this does not mean in any way that if things got tough financially I would just get up and leave, but would expect we both work together to have a better life, if by some turn of fate we end up both contributing about the same I would still consider him a provider, if he was making less for too long I would think he is not trying hard enough honestly.

[aconcepts]

You have a good head on your shoulders IV - Really like the way you think.... I need to hire you to teach that stuff to perspective keepers (jajaja). You know my very first girlfriend was Mexican. Funny, how my image of them changed when I began to see the party girls from TJ in S. California. Now you have made me rethink my generalization that Mexicanas are fast becoming like Americanas...


It really is the Forest Gump box of chocolates thing now isn't it?


So can you explain what eye shape is attractive? Give it a try, I am fascinated...


BG did you get my normally long winded email regarding the book you liked.... Don't be leery about opening it - No boys club stuff there... Jajajajaja

[InnocentVixen]

 

You have a good head on your shoulders IV - Really like the way you think.... I need to hire you to teach that stuff to perspective keepers (jajaja). You know my very first girlfriend was Mexican. Funny, how my image of them changed when I began to see the party girls from TJ in S. California. Now you have made me rethink my generalization that Mexicanas are fast becoming like Americanas...

It really is the Forest Gump box of chocolates thing now isn't it?

So can you explain what eye shape is attractive? Give it a try, I am fascinated...

Thanks for the compliment, about mexicanas, there is such a huge difference between a "normal" mexicana and a "real" one (born, raised and living in MX), even more so if it's a traditional one. Would love to train them for you, send them over! lol


ok I'll humor you with the eye shape thing, but you have to share your opinions of ITC 
The first word that comes to mind is sharp, they are not round eyes, close to asian almost but not really since the tear duct area is closer together, if you were making a sculpture you would have to pinch them closer and at a bit of an inclined angle aiming down, men with this eye shape can look like they are squinting a little when normal and when the do squint their eyes turn into a line with a bit of an inverted U shape that I find adorable, I probably don't make sense, here are some pictures:



This is the most attractive eye shape for me in a man, there are other variations of it that I like, here are more images:



this guy has a bit less of the "pinched" look in the upper lid but still very obvious under and the outer corner is lower compared to the first picture



This one has less of the "sharp" look to the eye corners but still basically the same shape



This other one closer to the 2nd picture with softer edges



And this last one was really hard to find an image of since his eyelids are usually shading his eyes!

[aconcepts]

I was laughing so loud my dog started barking!


First of all can any guy on the board see a difference in these eyes?


IV - Are these all shapes you like? If so maybe you need to contrast them with shapes you find less desirable.


I can't believe this eye shape thing. I mean I can really have a lot fun with this...


Are there any other parts of the anatomy for which you have a shape preference. Ears maybe?    erererer


Ok ok. I know you are serious but lets look at this in a man woman way... It say volumes about our differences, and some about our similarities.


Both men and women have shape preferences right guys = nod your heads up and down (lol).


Now of course I like a great pair of eyes and to stay on that subject the distance between the eyes is notable to me,,, I like a lot of distance between the eyes (I feel as if I am in a Sienfeld episode talking to Elaine).


However Elaine, I am not so sure that the eye shape and under brow width (if you will) takes priority over other accouterments, such as ITC.


Now eyes are rather static, in the sense that they are not a overly dynamic part of the human anatomy: something you can touch (right George?).


Castanza smiles in agreement and confirms with "Check!"


On the other hand, the thigh plays a much more functional role.


It moves in many ways. There is the walking thigh, the dancing thigh, the running thigh and we all know there is the much sought after quivering thigh....


So Elaine; I just don't get the eye shape thing really. I mean I get it, but why is it so important to women. I guess guys are just more tactile, you know touchy touchy feely feely!


Que te parece?


Now I would love to catalog ITC in photos but as the word MODERATED below my name implies I am on a probally well earned tight leash (no decent bad boy would have it any other way now would he?).


So a verbal explanation will have to suffice.


Now here is the location thing that illuminates the difference in thinking.


Woman - eyes, cerebral, thinking, personality, intelligence, the brain....


Man - Hips, thighs, etc... (need I write more?).


Now if you want to disagree with me about the man woman thing and you sensitive metro male types want to come back at me with the 'Well AC we have evolved..." retort, then i suggest reading a newly released book titled: In Fifty Years We'll All Be Chicks...


http://www.amazon.com/Fifty-Years-Well-All-Chicks/product-reviews/0307717372/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1


"The commentary is spot on and needs to be read by every wimpy, "progressive-minded" person out there. As well as all the chicks who want guys to be more sensitive."
 
"The book does an excellent job of pointing out some of the absurdities in how our lives have become increasingly feminized and how men have, by and large, completely given up. And he does so while making the reader laugh regularly. That is, if the reader isn't a completely pussy whipped already."
 
I know I got off the shape thing but I just sat with about twenty Peace Corp members fresh from the states in training. The half that were female (notice I didn't write women) were like gay men trapped in soft bodies... Man I will only return to the states when my plumbing is dysfunctional and my libido dead (and I have a huge libido) so I guess I will die a free man, huevos intact, in Latin America.
 
The funny thing about that encounter was the more I spoke with the men/males(?) and ignored the females the weirder the looks from the females... It was like, "Oh we smell testosterone Oh what to do? Hump it or kill it... Completely confused... I guess its no longer a common odor in the US...

[Brazilophile]

I was laughing so loud my dog started barking!

First of all can any guy on the board see a difference in these eyes?

I can't!  But I am not a woman and those are not women's eyes.

That said, I also pay a lot of attention to a woman's eyes but I don't look for what IV looks for.  The two most important things I look for are alignment and white part of the eye.  Are her eyes aligned or is she cross-eyed or have some other type of eye muscle problem?  Are the whites of her eyes white? bloodshot? have some other discoloration? 

Beyond that, esthetics of eyes for me is pretty broad.  Aconcepts implies, I, as a male, am mostly looking elsewhere. 

[InnocentVixen]

Haha I made your dog laugh too!
But I was just going into extreme detail (half joking) about my particular taste and how would I describe those eyes, as you can imagine that is the reason I would be thankful if he at least appreciates art, that way he won't look at me like I grew a second head when I get excited over something I like and what to talk about it. If he doesn't that is where the "must be understanding and respectful" makes the difference.


I would guess that while women are usually attracted to a nice pair of eyes it does not mean they are looking for the shape, some go for color, some for size... and yes I am still talking about eyes


Can't think of an eye shape that would be a deal breaker, like I said this is just something I like but not a must, it has no priority for me but I certainly appreciate it if it's there. I did say he must be attractive to me though, so with that in mind my top physical deal breakers are: bad skin, a fat nose and those men you can tell let himself go years ago without plans of doing anything about it.



Without considering the particular taste of the person it all comes down to symmetry and proportions, if any of you guys likes to sketch, sculpture or happens to be a plastic surgeon you will know the importance of this, then you have the genetic clues as to how healthy a potential mate might be, focusing on the face alone:



With a woman this time so you guys don't mind looking... the tricky part is that most of us will use make up, some are soo good with it that they manage to balance things out, I can think of 2 women that look like a different person without make up, one looks horrible and the other one actually looks better, so it can work both ways.


Glad someone noticed the eyebrows! it is really more of a low brow ridge if you look closely, that is probably my female instincts kicking in. If I remember correctly it has to do with high testosterone levels, eyebrows are what frame the eyes, a woman might say that what she likes the most in a man are his eyes and say all kind of platonic and romantic things but at the end we are not that different in the physical department, more testosterone translates into higher libido and a more "manly" look so basically she is measuring you up to see if you are in the range she is looking for whether is conscious or unconsciously, just like you might be measuring her estrogen levels by paying attention to the thighs, hips, waist, breasts, lips, etc.


I once read an article about how asian ladies are smarter in choosing a partner for the most part since they tend to look for someone with a more feminine beauty to them that are less likely to cheat and stick around longer, but then again it wouldn't be that hard for men over there to pass for a woman so even if they didn't it's not much of a choice if they are dating within their race back in their own country, the only truth I find in my memories of that article have actually been comments on this forum of how asians hate facial hair while latinas love it.


Great, in my last post I sounded like an airhead and now I am sounding like a geek!


It is my impression that people looking for personality, intelligence and things like that are usually people ready and looking for a long term commitment, the ones that look for a mix of it are the ones not willing to settle, but I do agree that women priorities are not looks, maybe performance? think about it, a man that is attracted to a woman physically and emotionally will probably be able to perform well as a husband and father if it applies for the rest of her life or at the very least a long time.


About the book you mentioned, that would be such a tragedy but I think it sounds very realistic, I will admit if I had come across with too many of those type of men I would not think of looking in the US as one of my options, that might work for a woman that wants to wear the pants in the relationship, makes sense that she would like to have a wife instead of a husband but in my case there would be no balance, it would be like spending the rest of my life with my sister, the machos could use a bit of that though!


I know what you mean about the "females" I have noticed that myself, over here we might have some unatractive ones but at the very least you can tell they are women, in the states it is sometimes hard to tell.


I will be busy in the next few days so I don't feel guilty about this long post at all, I do feel a bit preachy but other than that no guilt

[aconcepts]

Great, in my last post I sounded like an airhead and now I am sounding like a geek!


jajaja


I don't know about other guys here but I am impressed, not only with your clear thoughts but that you would even be here in the boys club at all tells me you like men. I don't mean being attracted to them, but actually like them. Now since I believe that to be the exception to the rule I am guessing you have a healthy respect for several men in your life. Care to elaborate on that assumption?


What makes you like men, I mean what experiences have you had that makes you value masculinity.


Why I like to hang out with guys?


straight talk
we share the same hormones so we can relate
honesty
courage
friendship
uncomplicated
more knowing and understanding rather than explaining
genuine
visual


What makes me respect women?


Motherhood
sacrifice
consistency
patience
listening
cooking!!!! jajajajaja (what a turn on!)
detail
knock out legs and butt (oh oh... I strayed) there goes that damn libido you women love so much... ererererer Yes boys club forever!!! Dam Political Correctness all to hell!!


I am genetically programmed to be uniquely me!


Ok lets all arm wrestle!