Dennis Levy

[htown]

 
It sounds like YOU are the one who is a little confused there Maria.
 
To attempt to put the blame on Americans for failing to cooperate with YOUR thieves is just plain stupid IMHO...
 
 
 
 
Ray

^^^^^
This is basically what I was going to say.


In your post Maria you made it seem like the Americans were the ones to blame for getting robbed and killed. 


Why didn't you say "just give up your wallet" instead of saying "gringos just give up your wallet".  The way you said it sounds like the gringo victim is the one at fault and I truthfully pointed out that it wasn't the gringo's fault, it was the colombian's fault(in this case).


The way you said it came across very insensitive, to be honest.  Especially after an innocent man gets gunned down while minding his own business.

[benjio]

I should be in Colombia sometime this year and I will be purchasing a gun and carrying it with me when I'm in the streets.

HTown,
 
I can't say this is a horrible idea. A little risky, but not exactly stupid. I've also thought of carrying a handgun in Colombia many times and I know a few places where I could purchase one. The absolute worse that would probably happen to you is a police officer finding it, and you having to bribe him to stay out of jail (he'd most definitely confiscate the gun as well), so just make sure you're carrying plenty of cash too! I mean why not?! You'd be strapped! 
 
Seriously, all joking aside...I don't know Maria and have only heard a few stories about her in Barranquilla from other people; so this isn't saying anything about her personally. But the attitude she portrays in her post is one I've found to be pretty common in Colombia. Outside of their family and friends, the well-being of other people is simply not the average Colombian's concern. You can tell by the way people drive. There is a serious risk of any pedestrian that's not always very careful being hit by a car. I've seen it happen many times when someone didn't yield to traffic for one reason or another. Most strangers I've tried to do business with (especially along the coast) almost always try to overcharge me for whatever product or service they are trying to sell me. Even after I explain to them that they're going to lose my business before I pay the price they are insisting on, most will not budge an inch simply because I'm a gringo. In situations like that it's almost as if screwing me over is more important than them making a profit, because on numerous occasions they allowed me to walk away rather than give me a reasonable price. If you give a Colombian cash to buy something for you, you will almost always have to ask for your change when they return no matter how much it is. A common saying along the coast is, "The opportunity makes the thief." Which means if you give someone the opportunity to steal from you, you should expect to be stolen from. The most honest Colombians I know, even devout Catholics, steal; even if it's only petty things they don't really need. The first time I was working in Bogota, we were leaving the office for lunch and a co-worker mentioned I should lock up my laptop in the server room. When I asked him why his exact words were, "because someone will steal it!" I replied, "SOMEONE HERE IN THE OFFICE?!!!" And he told me, "Most definitely!"
 
Life is cheap in Colombia and the poorer someone is, the less they are worth. After a man was shot during Carnaval in Barranquilla two years ago, his body laid in the street for days before someone was sent to pick it up. What's worse is most Colombians absolutely refuse to take responsibility for something they've done wrong. If you catch someone stealing from you there, they will deny it at first and continue to deny it even if they are the obvious culprit. When you confront them with overwhelming evidence, they would rather flee than admit they have done something wrong.
 
From my experience this type of behavior is the norm, especially along the coast. The lying, stealing and unwillingness to take responsibility for their actions is something I've seen a lot of gringos have to deal with after bringing women from Colombia stateside...sometimes to the detriment of a marriage's success. 
 
 

[Micky]

BENJ -
 
"What's worse is most Colombians absolutely refuse to take responsibility for something they've done wrong."  -  Benjio
 
I do not know how to do any computer tricks.  If I did there would be five stars along with BenJ's quote!!!!!
 
Certain things are "ingrained"  in culture,  unfortunately,  this is one that is so with Colombians  Not going to change anytime soon.  I do not like it,  but I damn sure well have learned to live with it.
 
Micky

[htown]

One thing I've noticed with some latino people is if you're standing in line and you're not literally breathing on the neck of the person in front of you, someone is probably going to cut in front of you in the line.  I've had this happen to me several times.  I just kind of stand there thinking "did this just happen?" lol.  Does this happen in Colombia?


Fyi, I am latino, but had a pretty much all american upbringing.

[MariaJBueno]

WOW.... Honestly sorry if you all felt offended... I was mainly voicing my concern and it was not invitation for any of you guys to cooperate with thieves..
This comes from a person who has felt the pain of losing a loved over not turning over her car keys, watching her 7 year old cry every night in fear after 2 men took their cellphone at gun point.
If you feel so offended know this,  it is same  the advise I give my own children do not fight, give it up.Don't risk your life.. You took it to another complete level... I do not BLAME anyone for getting hurt or killed. What kind of person are you to even think such thing over what I posted? I am stating the facts, these people like many other Colombians opposed their attackers and ended up in the wrong side of the aftermath.
I am shuckled, almost in tears thinking what the hell did I say that was sooo wrong to have all these people insult me and my country??
This is not the only place in the world where you can get killed over meaningless material objects you tube is filled with 7-11 videos of clerks getting killed over a few dollars.
You all turned this into a cultural persecution towards Colombians.. Yes, this is not the most perfect place in the world yet it has you coming back over and over ..
Most of you do not know me nor have I ever done business with you. But there are some people on this site that can say a lot about my character. 
I am the first one to always make sure the people who come here do not get gringo taxed!! I am the first to always make sure people get the best deals and I have even called out lairs.I have in my days of translation made sure everyone was not exposed to any danger. Yet for one simple post you let all your silly experiences out there and put me down just to get your point across. I am the only Colombian here caring BTW.
I had my share of American upbringing as well and I can go to sleep at night feeling very happy knowing that I was raised with good values and glad my parents decided to add in some good Colombian values.
You are right I am very confused. I don't get why you complain so freaking much about our country yet you come back over and over or live here?
Not all Colombians are happy with the way many things go down in our country.. some of us stand tall against things and do not put our head down.. But we also think hell life is by far more important than any material belonging. GOD knows my sole intention was to not run into another sad post of another foreign person getting killed over a miningless object or fight.. Life can not be bought..
It is amazing how you all found it as an invitation to insult Colombians and voice your dull opinion.
Don't you hate how someone goes to another country and complains on how things are not like back home DUDE this is not back home. You don't like it simple, don't come back.
Now let me give you a little insight of the world.. Cutting in line, bad driving, robberies, lies ... all of those things .. Well I hate to tell you this and wake you up from your ignorance.. it happens in all corners of the world.. Europeans, Germans, Canadians, there are a bad apples in every country of the world and those things are happening in all of their countries too... as stupidity and ignorance is not subject to a skin color, race or nationality..

[Gato4Astrid]

I am not sure if you heard or remember of a similar story about 2 years ago here in Barranquilla the guy did not give up a laptop and got killed in front of his home..
SAD REAL SAD..

The Canadian guy?


Best recommended laptop is the Chromebook


http://www.google.co.uk/intl/en_uk/chrome/devices/#utm_campaign=en_GB&utm_medium=ha&utm_source=en_GB-ha-emea-gb-bkws&utm_medium=oa


If you get the chromebook stolen, you will not lose any data!!   No data at all are kept in the chromebook

[Gato4Astrid]

Why can't you colombians quit stealing!!??  Get a freaking job and earn an honest living!! 

I agree with you there, but why do you come to Colombia when you already know the risk ? !!


If we do not visit Colombia, then they have nothing to steal  !!!

[Ray]

Well I hate to tell you this and wake you up from your ignorance..

 
OUR ignorance?
 
Actually, it's YOUR ignorant, arrogant attitude that is offensive...
 
 
Ray
 
 

[htown]

I agree with you there, but why do you come to Colombia when you already know the risk ? !!


If we do not visit Colombia, then they have nothing to steal  !!!

Are you asking me personally?  Many of the risks associated with being a gringo in Colombia don't apply to me because of my looks and speech.  Of course, I'm sure that Colombians get robbed just as much as foreigners if not more, therefore I'll be relying on street smarts and common sense.  I've haven't been to Colombia yet but I should be there sometime next month.

[Researcher]

One thing I've noticed with some latino people is if you're standing in line and you're not literally breathing on the neck of the person in front of you, someone is probably going to cut in front of you in the line.  I've had this happen to me several times.  I just kind of stand there thinking "did this just happen?" lol.  Does this happen in Colombia?


Fyi, I am latino, but had a pretty much all american upbringing.

Yes it happens all the time. It is also common for one person to hold a place in line for several others. I had an entire soccer team try and break line at the airport. I got out of line and walked ahead of them.
Researcher

[Dave H]

Well, damn.  That just sucks.  I was hoping he'd be able to morph into the Dave H of Colombia, livin' the dream in-country with his best gal by his side.  I'll miss his contributions to the forum.  My sympathies to his family.

I'm very sorry to hear about Dennis!

I take security very seriously (including personal protection), anywhere I am in the world! My biggest problem is that I say what I think and won't back down when someone (bad guys) piss me off! The good thing is that most Filipinos are pretty mellow and try not to cause a scene. There are many more knives pulled in the Philippines than guns...not too bad if you can keep out of range! My real blessing is that my wife is much tougher than me and watches my back! But, like Dennis,I am sometimes by myself and don't usually stick to the tourist map.

R.I.P. Dennis!


Dave

[Dave H]

My gun of choice would be the Magpul FMG9 (Folding Machine Gun).If it was available!






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY2EqFzPzn8

[DesmondID]

One thing I've noticed with some latino people is if you're standing in line and you're not literally breathing on the neck of the person in front of you, someone is probably going to cut in front of you in the line.  I've had this happen to me several times.  I just kind of stand there thinking "did this just happen?" lol.  Does this happen in Colombia?

Fyi, I am latino, but had a pretty much all american upbringing.

No one has ever cut in front of me while standing in line in Colombia but I have noticed a couple of times in very long lines that people link in chains and when the line moves, even if they end up running, the links don't break for long. Brilliant.. I wish we did the same thing here, can't tell you how many times I've seen people look at a long line and casually slip into the front somewhere.. I took the picture below at the line for a presidential speech in Bogota, they were not putting up with that crap at all.. Line butters were being flushed out and sent on their way.

[mambocowboy]

HTown,
 
I can't say this is a horrible idea. A little risky, but not exactly stupid. I've also thought of carrying a handgun in Colombia many times and I know a few places where I could purchase one. The absolute worse that would probably happen to you is a police officer finding it, and you having to bribe him to stay out of jail (he'd most definitely confiscate the gun as well), so just make sure you're carrying plenty of cash too! I mean why not?! You'd be strapped! 
 
Seriously, all joking aside...I don't know Maria and have only heard a few stories about her in Barranquilla from other people; so this isn't saying anything about her personally. But the attitude she portrays in her post is one I've found to be pretty common in Colombia. Outside of their family and friends, the well-being of other people is simply not the average Colombian's concern. You can tell by the way people drive. There is a serious risk of any pedestrian that's not always very careful being hit by a car. I've seen it happen many times when someone didn't yield to traffic for one reason or another. Most strangers I've tried to do business with (especially along the coast) almost always try to overcharge me for whatever product or service they are trying to sell me. Even after I explain to them that they're going to lose my business before I pay the price they are insisting on, most will not budge an inch simply because I'm a gringo. In situations like that it's almost as if screwing me over is more important than them making a profit, because on numerous occasions they allowed me to walk away rather than give me a reasonable price. If you give a Colombian cash to buy something for you, you will almost always have to ask for your change when they return no matter how much it is. A common saying along the coast is, "The opportunity makes the thief." Which means if you give someone the opportunity to steal from you, you should expect to be stolen from. The most honest Colombians I know, even devout Catholics, steal; even if it's only petty things they don't really need. The first time I was working in Bogota, we were leaving the office for lunch and a co-worker mentioned I should lock up my laptop in the server room. When I asked him why his exact words were, "because someone will steal it!" I replied, "SOMEONE HERE IN THE OFFICE?!!!" And he told me, "Most definitely!"
 
Life is cheap in Colombia and the poorer someone is, the less they are worth. After a man was shot during Carnaval in Barranquilla two years ago, his body laid in the street for days before someone was sent to pick it up. What's worse is most Colombians absolutely refuse to take responsibility for something they've done wrong. If you catch someone stealing from you there, they will deny it at first and continue to deny it even if they are the obvious culprit. When you confront them with overwhelming evidence, they would rather flee than admit they have done something wrong.
 
From my experience this type of behavior is the norm, especially along the coast. The lying, stealing and unwillingness to take responsibility for their actions is something I've seen a lot of gringos have to deal with after bringing women from Colombia stateside...sometimes to the detriment of a marriage's success. 
 
 

If you're using an agency, they'll look out for you as long as you're with them. However, if you're not using an agency, as I didn't, you'd better hope your lady friend is trustworthy. My now-wife (then girlfriend) and her family went out of their way to keep me safe and from being taken advantage of.  She told me another guy who visited her had his hotel room robbed, and had to travel to the embassy in Bogota because they stole his passport (along with everything else). The reality is if you're an American in Barranquilla, everyone will BELIEVE you're rich beyond belief,and Caucasians like me especially have trouble blending in, so be careful fellas...

[CeeTeeEnn]

"From my experience this type of behavior is the norm, especially along the coast. The lying, stealing and unwillingness to take responsibility for their actions is something I've seen a lot of gringos have to deal with after bringing women from Colombia stateside...sometimes to the detriment of a marriage's success."

Thank you Benijo - this has to be one the FUNNIEST understated quotes i have ever seen on P-L!!! Next time I look with disdain at the women around me and think "damn, it can't get much worse..", I'll remember your words and consider myself truly blessed!

[whitey]

"From my experience this type of behavior is the norm, especially along the coast. The lying, stealing and unwillingness to take responsibility for their actions is something I've seen a lot of gringos have to deal with after bringing women from Colombia stateside...sometimes to the detriment of a marriage's success."

Thank you Benijo - this has to be one the FUNNIEST understated quotes i have ever seen on P-L!!! Next time I look with disdain at the women around me and think "damn, it can't get much worse..", I'll remember your words and consider myself truly blessed!

Well, just to add some balance, this is only one side of the coin.  My wife, her family, my friends in Barranquilla, and my friends from Barranquilla here in Canada are not like this.

[CeeTeeEnn]

I'm very glad to hear this Whitey - the experiences and insight of yourself and others like you is badly needed here on P-L, in the interests of preserving readers' sanity and helping avoid the classic trainwrecks.

[fathertime]

Well, just to add some balance, this is only one side of the coin.  My wife, her family, my friends in Barranquilla, and my friends from Barranquilla here in Canada are not like this.

i agree 4-square...lots of beautiful ladies a good man could transform into a loyal loving wife. 


Fathertime! 

[robert angel]

I think what Whitey found in a wife in Barranquilla and in his many trips thereabouts, goes to show that generalizations and stereotypes of Colombian women (really any nation’s women) are just that--narrow minded overviews, applied broadly to what's really a more diverse population than many of us realize. Sure there are pitfalls in meeting women on-line in any nation, but the more carefully you choose, the more likely your chances of finding a match that should you desire, falls along the lines of what Whitey found---pretty much striking gold by using his head, 'getting down there' and taking the time to make sure it was 'right'.

I have said that were I looking, I don’t think that my mind set is suitable to finding a match easily in Colombia, that from what I see (from the outside looking in), I'd have to be a "lion tamer" to make it work and that it's just not my style. But obviously, there are Colombianas who have more even temperaments than we might expect.

Whitey and I have noticed some striking similarities between our spouses, even though they came from opposite sides of the world, nations where the women are often described in stereotypical fashions. Both came from lives where their family, career, home ownership, and friends are truly important and they brought that with them to our countries. Whitey's wife again proved her mettle at a crucial juncture, when Whitey was suddenly without a job and the path to her immigration to Canada suddenly wasn't as clear anymore. She stuck by him and job wise, things actually worked out for the better I think, but many lesser women would've created distance or cut him loose and explored other options. In my book, that beautiful woman showed her true colors before she even got on the plane to Canada.

Seeing Dennis's name as the topic of this thread, I'm surprised I'm even continuing what in the time honored tradition of P-L, is called "veering off thread". I sort of feel that this thread should just be in memory of Dennis Levy. His senseless murder really bummed me out--we were pals outside of the P-L fold. Dennis was maybe the world's greatest Yankee's fan, following their games wherever he went. Alas, in one of the last letters we exchanged, he said that with a 162 game season coming up, he would "live and die 162 times". I wish that were true and perhaps somewhere, Dennis is content Yankee wise, knowing they're in first place right now.

But in a way, this 'off thread' angle really applies to what Dennis proved and probably would've shared here. His wife Gloria, who as he once wrote to me, exalting that she made him the "happiest man in the world" was patient, stable and wise with him—not a whiff of scam or money grubber about her. They were quite close in age and before Dennis left on his extended journey through Colombia and surrounding nations, she predicted he'd be back. She too was a calm, supportive influence, a family and career focused woman, not the sort who longed to get to the USA and make a pilgrimage to Disney World. Gloria, bless her heart, and Dennis, bless his soul, did not fit the characterizations that we more typically found on P-L

So gentlemen, search and take your time. Travel if you can and with an open mind. If you know what you want and can divine what you want from what you really need and find the right combination there----if you can have the patience to make the right decision, but not stall so long as to lose the ability to be decisive, you too may 'get lucky'. But in a way, you'll also have created your own luck. Hopefully it'll last a good while too!

[whitey]

Thanks CeeTeeEnn, Rob.


Rob, really nice to see you posting again and a lovely picture of your wife in your new avatar.  I hope you've been doing well.


Not to take anything away from Benjio, whose posts are completely valid and has a ton of experience, more than me ... but I did want to make sure that guys who are still looking know that despite the bad apples, they can still find many good women and friends also in Colombia.


I miss Dennis' voice here - he always had interesting things to say, whether you agreed or not.  I'll admit that his murder has lifted up my rose coloured glasses a little, but I'm still looking forward to my next trip to Colombia over Christmas.

[John W]

I agree with Whitey-I miss Dennis and his posts. I have not read all the recent posts here but want to take exception with ones that imply Dennis died because he refused to give up his wallet or other possessions. Fox News Latino reported that he was killed after attempting to help the lady working the front desk. She was being attacked by two women and a man. I highly doubt that Dennis would have resisted armed robbers. The far more likely scenario is that Dennis reacted to the assault and one of the assailants pulled out a gun and shot him. Here is a link to Fox News Latino story:
 
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/04/26/asesinan-estadounidense-en-colombia/
 
I also saw a video clip on youtube of the police general referenced in the Fox News Latino story giving a statement about the crime, but I have not been able to find it again.
 
 

[benjio]

I think what Whitey found in a wife in Barranquilla and in his many trips thereabouts, goes to show that generalizations and stereotypes of Colombian women (really any nation’s women) are just that--narrow minded overviews, applied broadly to what's really a more diverse population than many of us realize. Sure there are pitfalls in meeting women on-line in any nation, but the more carefully you choose, the more likely your chances of finding a match that should you desire, falls along the lines of what Whitey found---pretty much striking gold by using his head, 'getting down there' and taking the time to make sure it was 'right'.

I have said that were I looking, I don’t think that my mind set is suitable to finding a match easily in Colombia, that from what I see (from the outside looking in), I'd have to be a "lion tamer" to make it work and that it's just not my style. But obviously, there are Colombianas who have more even temperaments than we might expect.

Whitey and I have noticed some striking similarities between our spouses, even though they came from opposite sides of the world, nations where the women are often described in stereotypical fashions. Both came from lives where their family, career, home ownership, and friends are truly important and they brought that with them to our countries. Whitey's wife again proved her mettle at a crucial juncture, when Whitey was suddenly without a job and the path to her immigration to Canada suddenly wasn't as clear anymore. She stuck by him and job wise, things actually worked out for the better I think, but many lesser women would've created distance or cut him loose and explored other options. In my book, that beautiful woman showed her true colors before she even got on the plane to Canada.

Seeing Dennis's name as the topic of this thread, I'm surprised I'm even continuing what in the time honored tradition of P-L, is called "veering off thread". I sort of feel that this thread should just be in memory of Dennis Levy. His senseless murder really bummed me out--we were pals outside of the P-L fold. Dennis was maybe the world's greatest Yankee's fan, following their games wherever he went. Alas, in one of the last letters we exchanged, he said that with a 162 game season coming up, he would "live and die 162 times". I wish that were true and perhaps somewhere, Dennis is content Yankee wise, knowing they're in first place right now.

But in a way, this 'off thread' angle really applies to what Dennis proved and probably would've shared here. His wife Gloria, who as he once wrote to me, exalting that she made him the "happiest man in the world" was patient, stable and wise with him—not a whiff of scam or money grubber about her. They were quite close in age and before Dennis left on his extended journey through Colombia and surrounding nations, she predicted he'd be back. She too was a calm, supportive influence, a family and career focused woman, not the sort who longed to get to the USA and make a pilgrimage to Disney World. Gloria, bless her heart, and Dennis, bless his soul, did not fit the characterizations that we more typically found on P-L

So gentlemen, search and take your time. Travel if you can and with an open mind. If you know what you want and can divine what you want from what you really need and find the right combination there----if you can have the patience to make the right decision, but not stall so long as to lose the ability to be decisive, you too may 'get lucky'. But in a way, you'll also have created your own luck. Hopefully it'll last a good while too!

Robert,
 
Great post! And I will most definitely admit that sometimes my posts give people the impression that I'm speaking about every single Colombian out there and that's just not the case. I know very well there are some great people there, and to answer Maria's question that's exactly why I keep looking in Colombia, amongst other country in Latin America. This is something I've stated in many other threads. But spending significant time there will usually get any gringo a little "down" on the decency of the general population. That's just my 2 Cents though, and believe me when it say that's all my opinion is worth.

[robert angel]

Thanks Benjio, but when I meet a guy who wants to get 'the feel' for what it's like 'down there' I suggest that they read back on YOUR posts and for a more Colombia specific study, also on Dennis's posts. You have been to a good number of places, speak the language and seem to blend in well.  You are far, far from the more typical guy here--the guy who might go 1 to 3 times, get a bride, and bring her back. You've seen the good the bad and the ugly and the highs and lows of societal levels down there. You express yourself so well, but yet you never have a 'Oh--I've seen it ALL" kind of attitude--none of the holier than though, I'm infalliable stuff some folks project. When I see you write something like:
 
"I learn about the existence of a new kind of woman everyday on this board. I had no idea there were Latin American Women that weren't fervent fans of at least one genre of music. I have honestly never met one."
 
Statements like that just add value to your stock here. I really don't like the word 'envy' but I guess had that for a while in a sense with Dennis and yea, I read about your travels and think how it'd be great to be employed and working while having some time off there, knowing how to speak the language, making money and seeing all the places you see. I guess it's normal to an extent. I have a pretty good, stable situation going with a wonderful woman that I don't want to throw away, but it's probably human nature to sometimes want to fly to a place like Brazil or Colombia and be single again. I'd like to have a new Porsche Turbo S too, for that matter!--although that's obviously different than relationships, marital fidelity and travel!
 
Anyway--please keep that great mindset and posting here. You really do have a talent for relaying great info in an understandable way. I'm rather sure it's made a difference in people's lives here, that you've helped them make more informed decisions, saved them money and certainly helped folks travel safer. You haven't been sugar coating life's realities there, but you don't seem to be totally buying into all the US State Dept and similar reports and making guys paranoid to get on the plane and 'just do it'. You go man--you really rock and there's a lot of fans of you, besides myself--THANKS!
 

[htown]

Wow, I knew benjio was a cool dude, but I didn't know he was that cool.
 
There's some serious man-admiration going on in this thread.  Lmao!!

[Fuzzyone]

I agree with Whitey-I miss Dennis and his posts. I have not read all the recent posts here but want to take exception with ones that imply Dennis died because he refused to give up his wallet or other possessions. Fox News Latino reported that he was killed after attempting to help the lady working the front desk. She was being attacked by two women and a man. I highly doubt that Dennis would have resisted armed robbers. The far more likely scenario is that Dennis reacted to the assault and one of the assailants pulled out a gun and shot him. Here is a link to Fox News Latino story:
 
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/04/26/asesinan-estadounidense-en-colombia/
 
I also saw a video clip on youtube of the police general referenced in the Fox News Latino story giving a statement about the crime, but I have not been able to find it again.

   I have thing to say about giving your wallet up and about Dennis not giving his wallet up. Fighting to keep your wallet will make you dead plain and simple. I remember a poster we had here before that use to carry around a huge bowie knife with him to fight off any attacks. I say good ideal bring a weapon with you that way we can read about it in the paper when you end up dead.


   Nobody really knows what happen to Dennis but he is dead that is the end story, if he tried to hold on to his wallet or not does not make him a bad guy not in my eyes.


  One last thing anybody going to Colombia should know what they are getting into. I have met many Colombians that I liked very much, I met some that I wished I had a gun to rid the planet of them. If you think there is not scum bags every where then you are dreaming try going to some of our large cities and listen to the idiots complaining that we owe them so they can sit on the porch or in the bar all night. Read the New York post crimes area and see what is happening, jesus they are not gulity someone else did it!