Moral Dilemma?

[Dan]

Fschmidt's said nothing about being a parent in his post. You're extrapolating. Anyway the principal reason this board exists is because a lot of men are profoundly dissatified with American women. You're a regular poster here seems like you would have caught that.

That may be how some members see it - but it is not how I see it, nor Patrick before me. The principal reason this board exists is to offer people a venue where they can learn about relationships and marriage to a foreign partner. I came to PL in the late 1990's because I had been living as an expat in Asia and then Europe - and I saw first-hand the positives attributed to cross-cultural marriage - and there are many. I daresay that MOST of the more balanced of our members see cross-cultural relationships as the equivalent of simply 'casting a wider net' in pursuit/consideration of a life partner. For some, they manage to find their life-partner from the house down the street. For many there is increasingly broader exposure as one progresses through elementary school to middle school to high school and college and then into the workplace. This is the natural order of things - and for some of us, that led to consideration of a partner from outside the borders of our home state and even our home country.

In other words - for more than a few of us, the fact we are involved in a cross-cultural marriage has absolutely NOTHING to do with dissatisfaction with American women, and is merely a path taken to consider more alternatives - including those within, and outside of, the borders of our country.

Another way of looking at things is - I feel sympathy for those who are considering this pursuit because of some dissatisfaction they feel - like they are running away from things. Again IMO, that is a very poor foundation for creating a lasting relationship with a partner from any country.

- Dan

[V_Man]

I agree with you Dan except for the way you worded this part:

I feel sympathy for those who are considering this pursuit because of some dissatisfaction they feel - like they are running away from things. Again IMO, that is a very poor foundation for creating a lasting relationship with a partner from any country.

I think you just worded it badly but I can only respond to what you wrote.

Like you, I don't rule out marriage to someone from my own country. I certainly have and would date them and explore the possibility. However it is also true that there is more than a little dissatisfaction with things that matter in the long term. I will be one of the very first to discuss this. However in no way do I feel that I am running away from anything in exploring marriage with a Latina. Quite the opposite in fact. I'm facing the reality of the world around me and I am moving towards something. Hunting.

Also I think it is an erroneous asumption to link a motive to look elsewhere (dissatisfaction with the local options) and assume this will be a foundation of the resulting long term relatiosnhip. Relationships evolve. Whatever motivated someone to look in a certain area may quickly become irrelevant as a relationship develops.

For example if Joe did not have the slightest idea in his head of looking for love anywhere until he meet Mary. Then does Joe have a poor foundation for marriage? After all Joe clearly wasn't planning on it. He obviously is unprepared and has not thought it through.

Another example: What's say Phil is not impressed with the girls he dated in his small home town. Hence Phil decides to move to the big smoke and try there. Does this mean Phil is running away and has a poor foundation for future long term relationship? There are thousands of people doing that every week. Are most of them running away and doomed to be fail in relationships?

What you have done is link dissatisfaction with American women to running away from something. I think you meant that there is a sub-set that are running from something However that is true for any group and it reads like most men who are dissatisfied are running from something. I respectfully disagree.

[JimD]

Well Dan that was certainly a rosey post. It seems to me that a lot of dissatisfaction with American women has been expressed here at one time or another but I'm certainly not going to take the time to dig up posts on the topic. I daresay I haven't read any posts here by anyone who has found his life partner down the street at least not any street in North America. It's all the same to me though because I haven't been around  American women for years.

[sticky2]

Thanks for the responses and all the different perspectives.


I told my buddy (the one who is considering this move with his daughter) about this board and I told him I was going to pose the moral dilemma question on here.  Then I told him the responses where mostly negative and pointed out the selfishness of the whole idea.


He said he doesn't think it would be that bad for her, especially since she would be living in an upper class situation, and he wants to live in Bogota and put her in the best school he can find.  He said he was going to hire help (like a nanny I guess, but at 14 yrs old I don't know if you can call that a nanny), and a personal spanish teacher (nope, she doesn't speak spanish) and join a Church and get her involved in activities.


This guy is actually a really good guy, and a great father, and I personally don't think he would deserve to "eat a bullet", as one poster indicated .... but..... I do have to agree with you guys on this one though, that this is not such a great idea.


He also doesn't just want to be a player.  He loves South America, and sincerely wants to find a wife, make a family and build a new life down there.


He had a good point though, he said that if he was moving to live on the beach in Spain, people would not be so hard on him.  He says the only difference between Spain and Bogota is the perception of extreme danger.  And he believes that under the right circumstances, he can provide a relatively safe environment for her.


He is planning to go down to Bogota in May to look for schools and an apartment, and hammer out the details.  To be honest, I'm a little jealous of this guy, and although I don't think its the best idea, he and his daughter will probably be just fine.


I guess we shall see!


Sticky

[whitey]

   The best place to raise a daughter is in the US. Here she will continue to be taught to be independent and self reliant moreso than just about anywhere. If I were in his shoes I would raise my daughter here. Now, when she became college age and was either away at college or on her own I would go to another country. Why? Because the US is a good place to raise a daughter but a lousy place to find a wife. Yes, I know that is a double standard but it is what it is. The US: Good place to raise a daughter, bad place to find a wife.
       Researcher

I agree with you there, Researcher.  Western women in my opinion are often very good mothers, daughters, sisters, employees, etc. with many good qualities ... but most in my opinion are not good wives due to the cultural shift in the last 50 years, and compared to women you can find in some other cultures.

I certainly don't hate Western women ... just don't want to be married to one.

[Dan]

I agree with you Dan except for the way you worded this part:

I think you just worded it badly but I can only respond to what you wrote.

Like you, I don't rule out marriage to someone from my own country. I certainly have and would date them and explore the possibility. However it is also true that there is more than a little dissatisfaction with things that matter in the long term. I will be one of the very first to discuss this. However in no way do I feel that I am running away from anything in exploring marriage with a Latina. Quite the opposite in fact. I'm facing the reality of the world around me and I am moving towards something. Hunting.

Also I think it is an erroneous asumption to link a motive to look elsewhere (dissatisfaction with the local options) and assume this will be a foundation of the resulting long term relatiosnhip. Relationships evolve. Whatever motivated someone to look in a certain area may quickly become irrelevant as a relationship develops.

For example if Joe did not have the slightest idea in his head of looking for love anywhere until he meet Mary. Then does Joe have a poor foundation for marriage? After all Joe clearly wasn't planning on it. He obviously is unprepared and has not thought it through.

Another example: What's say Phil is not impressed with the girls he dated in his small home town. Hence Phil decides to move to the big smoke and try there. Does this mean Phil is running away and has a poor foundation for future long term relationship? There are thousands of people doing that every week. Are most of them running away and doomed to be fail in relationships?

What you have done is link dissatisfaction with American women to running away from something. I think you meant that there is a sub-set that are running from something However that is true for any group and it reads like most men who are dissatisfied are running from something. I respectfully disagree.

V_Man,

Like you, I was responding to what was written and implied in what was written. Specifically, the emboldened text in the quotation from JimD.

Admittedly, my response was influenced by another post that I chose to not directly address, but for these purposes I will reference it here:

The worst country in which to raise a daughter is America because she will almost certainly grow up to be a spoiled bitch like other American women.  So of course he should move to Colombia.

In each of the relevant posts, the author is founding his position on dissatisfaction with American women. In one case painting all AW with a pejorative insulting brush. They went on to write, or at least infer, that their subsequent behaviors (or recommended action) be based on their foundational belief.

My post is to challenge the foundational belief. I know with certainty their foundational belief is not consistent with my own - and from reading the accounts of many of our members, I feel confident in stating that it is inconsistent with the beliefs of quite a number of our members. By your post, it seems the foundational belief they espoused is inconsistent with your own position/action as well.

BTW - as you hail from Australia, what is wrong with your local women?? Australia being home to one of my (and my wife's) favorite online stores - www.wickedweasel.com. Here are a few of their offerings:



And:



And:



For those who are REALLY interested in their products, take a tour of their "Bikini Contest" section [NSFW] at this link -- http://wickedweasel.com/en-us/bikini_contest.

- Dan

[whitey]

He had a good point though, he said that if he was moving to live on the beach in Spain, people would not be so hard on him.  He says the only difference between Spain and Bogota is the perception of extreme danger.  And he believes that under the right circumstances, he can provide a relatively safe environment for her.

He's right - most people would probably applaud a decision to move to Spain, Paris, London England, Australia ... and would not be so supportive about a move to Mogadishu, Tehran, Bahgdad, Kandahar, or Bogota.

The fact is that there is not just a perception of increased danger in Colombia ... it is a reality.  Being gringo, being relatively wealthy, having vulnerable dependents ... all these things make you an increased target.

Most of my Colombian friends living here in Canada are here under refugee claims, and were relatively well off in Colombia (upper middle class).  They and their families became targets, were threatened and extorted, and in some cases relatives were killed or kidnapped.

I would quite happily accept the personal risk to move to Colombia, but I wouldn't be prepared to take that risk with a 14 year old daughter.

[whitey]

Woo hoo ... been a few years since I visited the Wicked Weasel web site ... you're a lucky man Dan if your wife likes their swimwear!

[utopiacowboy]

The guy clearly knows nothing about Colombia if he would even consider the idea. His daughter is going to be wearing a big "F*CK ME" sign on her just by being a 14 year old gringa in Colombia. She will be at an age when her skills at fending off unwanted advances will be very poor and she will be unaccustomed to the predatory sexual tactics of many Colombian men. This is a recipe for disaster. I would not be surprised if one of her tutors or teachers at any private school she attends won't be the ones to knock her up. This may be the stupidest idea I have ever read on PL.

[JimD]

V_Man,

Like you, I was responding to what was written and implied in what was written. Specifically, the emboldened text in the quotation from JimD.

Admittedly, my response was influenced by another post that I chose to not directly address, but for these purposes I will reference it here:

In each of the relevant posts, the author is founding his position on dissatisfaction with American women. In one case painting all AW with a pejorative insulting brush. They went on to write, or at least infer, that their subsequent behaviors (or recommended action) be based on their foundational belief.

My post is to challenge the foundational belief. I know with certainty their foundational belief is not consistent with my own - and from reading the accounts of many of our members, I feel confident in stating that it is inconsistent with the beliefs of quite a number of our members. By your post, it seems the foundational belief they espoused is inconsistent with your own position/action as well.

BTW - as you hail from Australia, what is wrong with your local women?? Australia being home to one of my (and my wife's) favorite online stores - www.wickedweasel.com. Here are a few of their offerings:



And:



And:



For those who are REALLY interested in their products, take a tour of their "Bikini Contest" section [NSFW] at this link -- http://wickedweasel.com/en-us/bikini_contest.

- Dan

Dan you've out done your self. Bravo!

[Dan]

Dan you've out done your self. Bravo!

Jim,

FTR - this is not the first time I have made reference to that site. Of course, I am not sure if your post is in reference to the photos or a sarcastic response to my reference to challenging your foundational belief - but whatever.

- Dan

[JimD]

Dan,
You have never challanged my "foundational beliefs". You don't even know what they are...but...whatever...

[Dan]

Dan,
You have never challanged my "foundational beliefs". You don't even know what they are...but...whatever...

Only to the extent you share them - as you did with what you wrote upthread. It does sort of beg the question Jim - if with nearly 1,000 posts you claim to have shared nothing of your "foundational beliefs" - what contribution are you making to this COMMUNITY?!? The mere fact of posting and responding to other's posts involves the sharing of at least some of one's "foundational beliefs" - assuming, of course, one is interested in making a *GENUINE* contribution and not merely posting fluff or nonsense.

- Dan

[beginthebeguin]

Ok V_man now I checked through the Wicked_Weasel bikini contest. There was only one that impressed me and reminded me of a truly sexy latina. And that was one that was posted in July or was it March? Can't remember.    Anyway I did look at all of last years submittals.    In fact 2010 seemed to be the better year for submittals. 

[Dan]

Woo hoo ... been a few years since I visited the Wicked Weasel web site ... you're a lucky man Dan if your wife likes their swimwear!

Whitey,

I am, indeed. A recent (and modest) photo:



My wife appreciates the WickedWeasel line of swimwear, though much of it crosses her threshold of what she will wear in public. Fortunately, she does not mind modeling it for me privately. 

- Dan

[mudd]

The guy clearly knows nothing about Colombia if he would even consider the idea. His daughter is going to be wearing a big "F*CK ME" sign on her just by being a 14 year old gringa in Colombia. She will be at an age when her skills at fending off unwanted advances will be very poor and she will be unaccustomed to the predatory sexual tactics of many Colombian men. This is a recipe for disaster. I would not be surprised if one of her tutors or teachers at any private school she attends won't be the ones to knock her up. This may be the stupidest idea I have ever read on PL.

yep!!!!!

[Alabamaboy!]

The guy clearly knows nothing about Colombia if he would even consider the idea. His daughter is going to be wearing a big "F*CK ME" sign on her just by being a 14 year old gringa in Colombia. She will be at an age when her skills at fending off unwanted advances will be very poor and she will be unaccustomed to the predatory sexual tactics of many Colombian men. This is a recipe for disaster. I would not be surprised if one of her tutors or teachers at any private school she attends won't be the ones to knock her up. This may be the stupidest idea I have ever read on PL.

I agree with this. I have talked and hung out with a lot of these guys and they would just love to target a young gringa like this. It would be the ultimate score for them. And Colombian men are not known for being gentlemanly or to exhibit restraint in such pursuits.

[Kiltboy1]

Man
 
I could really see some " Down Under" in those Bikini Pics
Those babes are on par with any chica in the world !
 
Keep it coming Dan
 
KB

[fschmidt]

In each of the relevant posts, the author is founding his position on dissatisfaction with American women. In one case painting all AW with a pejorative insulting brush. They went on to write, or at least infer, that their subsequent behaviors (or recommended action) be based on their foundational belief.


My post is to challenge the foundational belief.

What is the point of challenging someone's foundational belief?  If you like American women, that's fine.  I don't.  We have different opinions and there is nothing wrong with that.  I was giving my opinion to the original poster because my viewpoint hadn't been expressed here yet.


But to be honest, I find the 'casting a wider net' idea as a reason to look abroad silly.  If you really like American women, there are plenty to choose from.  You can cast as a wide a net as you like in America if American women suit you.  The only reason to look abroad that makes any sense to me is if you think foreign women are better than American women.  And if you are raising a daughter, wouldn't you want her to become a decent wife?  I certainly do for my daughter.

The guy clearly knows nothing about Colombia if he would even consider the idea. His daughter is going to be wearing a big "F*CK ME" sign on her just by being a 14 year old gringa in Colombia. She will be at an age when her skills at fending off unwanted advances will be very poor and she will be unaccustomed to the predatory sexual tactics of many Colombian men. This is a recipe for disaster. I would not be surprised if one of her tutors or teachers at any private school she attends won't be the ones to knock her up. This may be the stupidest idea I have ever read on PL.

I don't see how America is any different in this regard.  Yes Latin men are more forward, but American men are just as determined.  There aren't a lot virgins in America in their 20s for good reason.  The only way to protect a daughter from this is through sound moral training and religion.  And at least outside of America, one can point to all the poor single mothers as a warning to what can happen to promiscuous women, while in America women are taught that they can do no wrong and the government supports them.

[JWR]

On the subject of the he man American women haters club.......
 
I think that 99% of guys looking to meet a foreign girl are going to all the trouble and expense because they can try to be with a younger prettier girl for a while.
 
Age differences are almost never a problem when they are in their own country and looking for a better deal.  Once they get here, and are settled in and single again, they want a guy that is within 5-7 years of their own age.  Go online and try to chat with filipinas living in the US.  See what happens.....  Same with Latinas......Huge attitude change once they get here, and are single again.
 
Most guys that say they don't like American women, usually don't like them because the pretty US girls 10-20 years younger don't look their way anymore.  There are many, many nice hard working American girls with good values.  I meet them all the time.  It's just the ones that I meet that are in my age range are almost all fat, and not nice to look at all.  They are really nice people......but just too ugly....sorry.
The pretty women that are in their 40s are riding in Jags. 
 
Guys just have a hard time admitting how superficial we are.
 
The US is filled with pretty American girls.  Problem is that they are almost all hiding under 40lbs of fat.......  Can you imagine how many pretty girls there would be if we could get the nation's women to lose 30 lbs?
 
Chasing girls in poor countries is a bad habit that I believe is extremely hazardous to your sanity, reputation, and your finances.  But the alternative is even worse I guess.  It's hovers just barely above a lose / lose situation.  Just barely.
 
On the subject of taking your teenage daughter to live in Colombia.....JFC that is stupid. Those of us guys that have lived there, and been married to these girls for a while start to hear all the horror stories about violence, and kidnapping.  Putting your kid at this sort of risk for skirt chasing is the ultimate in selfishness.  I can't image worrying about my daughter getting grabbed everytime she was out.  People are always watching you, word gets out, and to the wrong people.
 
My translator many years ago grew up in the US but was deported at about 16 years old when her Dad got deported for "issues"  So she was forced to live in Cali after growing up in the US.  She absolutely hated it, and fantasized everyday about how she could get back to the US.
 
 

What is the point of challenging someone's foundational belief?  If you like American women, that's fine.  I don't.  We have different opinions and there is nothing wrong with that.  I was giving my opinion to the original poster because my viewpoint hadn't been expressed here yet.


But to be honest, I find the 'casting a wider net' idea as a reason to look abroad silly.  If you really like American women, there are plenty to choose from.  You can cast as a wide a net as you like in America if American women suit you.  The only reason to look abroad that makes any sense to me is if you think foreign women are better than American women.  And if you are raising a daughter, wouldn't you want her to become a decent wife?  I certainly do for my daughter.



I don't see how America is any different in this regard.  Yes Latin men are more forward, but American men are just as determined.  There aren't a lot virgins in America in their 20s for good reason.  The only way to protect a daughter from this is through sound moral training and religion.  And at least outside of America, one can point to all the poor single mothers as a warning to what can happen to promiscuous women, while in America women are taught that they can do no wrong and the government supports them.

[fschmidt]

Most guys that say they don't like American women, usually don't like them because the pretty US girls 10-20 years younger don't look their way anymore.  There are many, many nice hard working American girls with good values.  I meet them all the time.  It's just the ones that I meet that are in my age range are almost all fat, and not nice to look at all.  They are really nice people......but just too ugly....sorry.

Experiences differ.  I met my wife in Mexico when I was 28, after giving up on American women.  I have never met a nice American woman younger than me in my life.  I am 51 of which about 49 years were in the USA.  All the American women that I know of are shallow, vain, selfish, and quite stupid.  Their opinion of me is about as low as my opinion of them.  But I have no problems with women from non-feminist cultures.  My wife is 5 years younger than me and we have been happily married for 21 years.  I don't think I am guilty of being superficial.

This image pretty well reflects my experiences:



I am not the only one who sees things this way.  See NO MA'AM, Fred, and Happier Abroad.

[beginthebeguin]

fschmidt love "Los Links" that you supplied. Especially Fred's here's another one that must be a classic for this board.
http:/http://www.fredoneverything.net/OldGuys.shtml
I can really relate to this one.
BTW tried 'Happier Abroad' and it appears to be a 'coco' link. Thanks for the input though. Good stuff.
 
 

[Jeff S]

Fschmidt: No one is out attempting to change anyone's mind - Dan was challenging the assertion that this board was founded by, and is populated by, men who's only reason for being here is because they hate American women. I don't hate them either and agree with Dan's viewpoint about casting a wider net. I traveled extensively when younger and had few, if any preferences on nationality or color, but decided a traditional Japanese woman was perfect for me after dating women from many different places, including the US. I never targeted younger women hotter women, or women of a certain ethnicity, and ended up with someone close to my own age. It is possibly because I didn't go through a bad marriage to an AW in the first place, and married for the first time in my mid 30s.

[mambocowboy]

On the subject of the he man American women haters club.......
 
I think that 99% of guys looking to meet a foreign girl are going to all the trouble and expense because they can try to be with a younger prettier girl for a while.
 
Age differences are almost never a problem when they are in their own country and looking for a better deal.  Once they get here, and are settled in and single again, they want a guy that is within 5-7 years of their own age.  Go online and try to chat with filipinas living in the US.  See what happens.....  Same with Latinas......Huge attitude change once they get here, and are single again.
 
Most guys that say they don't like American women, usually don't like them because the pretty US girls 10-20 years younger don't look their way anymore.  There are many, many nice hard working American girls with good values.  I meet them all the time.  It's just the ones that I meet that are in my age range are almost all fat, and not nice to look at all.  They are really nice people......but just too ugly....sorry.
The pretty women that are in their 40s are riding in Jags. 
 
Guys just have a hard time admitting how superficial we are.
 
The US is filled with pretty American girls.  Problem is that they are almost all hiding under 40lbs of fat.......  Can you imagine how many pretty girls there would be if we could get the nation's women to lose 30 lbs?
 
Chasing girls in poor countries is a bad habit that I believe is extremely hazardous to your sanity, reputation, and your finances.  But the alternative is even worse I guess.  It's hovers just barely above a lose / lose situation.  Just barely.
 
On the subject of taking your teenage daughter to live in Colombia.....JFC that is stupid. Those of us guys that have lived there, and been married to these girls for a while start to hear all the horror stories about violence, and kidnapping.  Putting your kid at this sort of risk for skirt chasing is the ultimate in selfishness.  I can't image worrying about my daughter getting grabbed everytime she was out.  People are always watching you, word gets out, and to the wrong people.
 
My translator many years ago grew up in the US but was deported at about 16 years old when her Dad got deported for "issues"  So she was forced to live in Cali after growing up in the US.  She absolutely hated it, and fantasized everyday about how she could get back to the US.
 
 

Speaking for myself, I can say that the attitude part is more important than the looks part. Both are important, but the attitude moreso...

[Dan]

What is the point of challenging someone's foundational belief?  If you like American women, that's fine.  I don't.  We have different opinions and there is nothing wrong with that.  I was giving my opinion to the original poster because my viewpoint hadn't been expressed here yet.


But to be honest, I find the 'casting a wider net' idea as a reason to look abroad silly.  If you really like American women, there are plenty to choose from.  You can cast as a wide a net as you like in America if American women suit you.  The only reason to look abroad that makes any sense to me is if you think foreign women are better than American women.  And if you are raising a daughter, wouldn't you want her to become a decent wife?  I certainly do for my daughter.



I don't see how America is any different in this regard.  Yes Latin men are more forward, but American men are just as determined.  There aren't a lot virgins in America in their 20s for good reason.  The only way to protect a daughter from this is through sound moral training and religion.  And at least outside of America, one can point to all the poor single mothers as a warning to what can happen to promiscuous women, while in America women are taught that they can do no wrong and the government supports them.

>>What is the point of challenging someone's foundational belief?<<

The point? Well, this is a discussion forum. Civil exchange of ideas and experiences is the hallmark of our existence. Challenging beliefs is rather part and parcel to what we are all about. THAT is the point.

>>If you like American women, that's fine.<<

Speaking in broad generalities - yes, I do like America women. In fact, I like women of all nationalities. Having said that, there are certainly *some* American women I don't like very much - and some German women (I lived there for a while) and some Taiwanese women I don't care for (lived there for a while too), and even some Indian women who turn me off (yes, lived there a short time as well).

>>The only reason to look abroad that makes any sense to me is if you think foreign women are better than American women.<<

While that may be the only reason making sense to you, yours is not the only voice of experience here. There are some who did not travel overseas with the explicit purpose of finding a partner. Some were in the military or employed by a company on an expat assignment and their meeting/marriage to a foreign partner was as happenstance as the guy who meets his future wife in the local pub. The simple fact of the matter is that only *some* of our members set out on a mission to find a partner overseas and some small subset of those were primarily motivated (like you) by their zealous anti-feminist views.

- Dan