Needle in a Haystack

[whitey]

Whitey
 
I do not think you can comment much, as i recall your wife is the only Colombian women you have dated? Your experience with Colombian women is limited to only 1, your wife who was introduced to you by a friend if i am not mistaken. How exactly does this give you a valid opinion on looking for or finding a wife or girlfriend when you never had to do it?

You're right, my personal dating experience with Colombian women is just my wife.  However, my circle of friends and my wife's friends much larger than that.

Like I said in my post, the women you said were very difficult to find ...

(women whom are not poor but not rich, what exactly are talking about? You want to meet a women from a good family who is not desperate, where do you think you have better odds of meeting a women like this, Colombia or Florida?)

... are not at all hard for me to find, now that I know some people.  Like I said, it sounds like my wife, her sister, and almost all of her friends and co-workers.  Also the friends and co-workers of my wife's sister.  And probably their friends and co-workers. 

My buddy has no problem attracting and dating women one step up from here, as I think I've mentioned.

My Colombian friends here in Canada are engineers, doctors, lawyers, judges, dentists, small business owners, etc.

I could go on, but hopefully I've made my point ... it's not a myth ... there is a middle class of educated, working women in Colombia who would be willing to data a foreign man for marriage. 

I do not mean to be rude, just making a point. your wife seems a good match for you 47 with 34, these guys are talking about women in their 20's from wealthy families and being older then yourself. Does that make any sense? Many of them never bothered to take Spanish classes or study anything before coming down as you did.

Straw man argument again.  I don't think anyone is talking about dating from wealthy families, the elite of Colombia ... I think we're talking about the middle class (Colombian version) ... at least I am.

I think you are giving a wrong impression of Colombia, when you say it’s easy to find middle class Colombian women to date, as the country is poor and many people live in poverty, it would be a bit rude to visit Colombia demanding only to interact with its minority wealthy do you not think so.

Not sure how my personal experience and my friend's can be so wrong.  My wife was on amigos.com, so was her sister and several of her friends.  My buddy has found good quality women on dating sites, but has also met others on trips through chance and through personal introductions.

Sure, the middle class in Colombia is not as large as in first world countries, but in the four major cities (Bogota, Medellin, Cali, Barranquilla), there are MORE than enough for the few gringos looking.

I could not imagine telling some women I met in a park, or local concert there; sorry I cannot date you I assumed that because you were well dressed and went to college that you lived in estrato 3-4 or above, I do not date women from barrio popular or low estratos like where your family comes from.

Straw man again - I can't imagine myself or too many guys saying that either.  I doubt I would end up dating a women from estrato 1 and probably not estrato 2 either ... but only because they likely wouldn't have post secondary education or be working. 

I would never start off a conversation or a date, asking where she worked, how much she made, where her family lives, if she owns a car or a home, or has to support her family. If a Colombian women started off in the first two dates with questions like these what would we say about her, what judgments would you form?

More straw man - who would talk like that?  Asking someone what they do for a living and where they work is a very natural part of early dating conversations.  My wife would have replied that she worked at Banco de XXX as a XXXX.  This would tell me all I need to know right away.

I think you guys often forget the basics of life in Colombia, the minimum wage there is about 500,000 COP per month, and we are talking about wages in 20,000 to 30,000 per day. MANY people work for less then that, Colombia has about 45 million people with 50% living in poverty. It seems to me to be extremely arrogant to enter this country with expectations of getting involved with only people of means and some form of wealth, it’s like going to red lobster not only looking for Mexican food, but demanding it be the best quality Mexican food around. If money a good paying job, and college education is so important why would you choose Colombia in the first place? Sometimes these guys here sound like small spoiled children demanding not only younger, hotter wives but college educated and self supporting ones too.

OK, call me arrogant, but why would I lower my personal standard?  I'm not looking to marry someone "above my station" ... I'm looking to marry someone who is relatively my equal (given the different standards between our two countries)

Listen life is not going to hand you everything you want; you have to pick and choose what is really important to you, and for me money, job, wealthy family did not matter as much as other qualities. There are too many guys running around Colombia day dreaming….Colombians have allot more going for them then jobs, and money or their looks you need only take the time and find it.

Finding a woman with a similar background to me (middle class, post high school education, working) was important to me so that we would share common values and experiences, which I believe improves our odds of a successful marriage over time.  I also wanted someone who had a good probability of adapting well here and being happy.

For some reason this pisses some people off.  I've got nothing against poorer women with no education or under-employed ... I'm sure many (most) would make great wives for the right guy ... just not me.

[whitey]

I was not trying to be rude to whitey (only zon and calipro super player-stud leaves the bed wet with women juice), I respect his achievement especially the long distance relationship, but my point remains he is commenting on finding an abundance of middle class college educated women with good paying jobs, as if it was a simple issue, if pointing out his lack of experience in this conversation is rude, I apologize.

I didn't take your comment to be rude Maritime, no worries, thanks ...

[whitey]

Whitey -  Easy to say "well he got lucky".  There is not such thing as luck.  He met a women and they both did the things that were necessary for their relationship to develop.  He is a positive person and does not get down on many at all.  You can bet that there were times that were hard,  maybe some doubts,  but he went forward and MADE it happen.  OK,  so he did not "date" twenty Colombian as before he met his wife,  so what?  He still knows something of the culture and sure knows plenty of guys who have been down the "Colombian Highway".  Why would one NOT want the opinion of a guy that has been there, knows a few things and is positive by nature?

Thanks for the kind words, Micky ... sure hope I get back to Medellin one day so I can meet you!

[whitey]

Whitey,
 
I disagree with that last sentence based on my experience in Colombia.  I met over 20 women there and I'd say almost all were poor.  Most of the women that I met were flaky and insincere and many were interesadas.  So I've got to disagree with you when you say that there are "more than enough women in these classes available" for guys going down to Colombia.
 
Now if you know tons of single, middle class, educated and attractive women in Colombia then perhaps you need to start a dating/ marriage agency there!

Jedimaster, I'd say we're all just blind men touching different parts of the same elephant named Colombia and coming away with different experiences and opinions.  Don't give up - they are out there!

[maritime04]

Is it really wrong for me to say you DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT because
1.       You have never actively dated in Colombia
2.       You DO NOT LIVE THERE NOR HAVE EVER
3.       You were introduced to your wife by another man
You experiences seem to come from three sources
1.       My wife’s family and friends
2.       Your buddy
3.       The Colombians you meet in Canada
First I think ill use your own words to make MY point.

Quote from: utopiacowboy on April 23, 2010, 05:55:22 PM
My rules would be:

1. She must be living on her own.
2. She must be a college educated professional who earns her own living.
3. She must own a car.
4. She must have a credit card and a bank account.
5. She must own her own house or apartment.
6. Her family must not be dependent on her in any way emotionally or financially.
7. All of the members of her family must meet rules 1 through 5.

 

UC, are you serious?!  Most of those would be red flags for me.

This would narrow the dating pool down to less than 2% of the female population in Colombia, and less than 1% who is not "earning her own living" on her back or illegally.

And if she's got all that, she certainly doesn't need your average gringo.  She's going to need someone wealthy to afford a comparable lifestyle here with the maid, hair, manicures, etc.

Ok with that said would you like to change your opinion again?? Or you could go on and try to make your point again!!
What is middle class Colombian version? Is that like X-factor Colombia? From what you said about your wife is has a good job and provides for her parents in combination with her family. You said before she had added her bedroom she shared one with family, you say she takes buses and taxies; sounds typical Colombian lifestyle to me no? There is no middle class as you and I would call it, there is just some families have owned their home for a longer time, and thus have had more improvements done. If there is enough money the children can be students rather than work.
I really do not care what your buddy say’s, I am more interested in your ACTUAL life experiences gained from FIRST HAND on the ground interactions and opinions that YOU have had. What we are talking about is someone visiting Colombia to FIND a wife or girlfriend there, WE ARE NOT talking about your personal life or your family or what your buddy say’s.
Allot of your post I do not understand? are you saying that people who live in Estrato 1-2
1.       Do not work for a living?
2.       Have not entered secondary education?
Wow, that’s really LOW, dude. People in those estratos are not ALL lazy; sitting around collecting money from family, they are poor because when they work its often for 20,000 pesos a day with them paying 3,000 for transport daily so take home is 17,000 COP 6 days a week. You go head and live on 50 bucks a week, and tell me about the second bedroom you added!! There is VERY little upward mobility there PERIOD. Unless one has established family multiple family members workers and home for 30-40 years then you will have barrios like Belen, laurels, Pardo central ect….
You have ZERO understanding of living in Colombia I suggest you talk with your wife more on the subject.
I have meet many women from lower barrios studying in University Antioquia, they are lucky ones because often their families do not depend on them to earn a living and they are using that chance to better themselves. Those things cost money in Colombia, not much compared to the US but they do cost. I would never look down upon ANY colombiano who could not afford it or rather took on the responsibility of taking care of their family first BEFORE there education!
Straw man again - I can't imagine myself or too many guys saying that either.  I doubt I would end up dating a women from estrato 1 and probably not estrato 2 either ... but only because they likely wouldn't have post secondary education or be working.
I like how you contradict you self here, so you would never tell a women your too poor for me; BUT you doubt you could ever date one…..RIGHT
Yes I stress that Colombia is poor and dealing with some social problems, No where can you find me thumbing my nose down at the poor. We all have our standards your coming off sounding more like Colombia’s poor are incapable of helping themselves when giving the opportunity, that their goals and desires are to live a life of begging and being lazy. Let me express this to you ; most of Colombia’s poor survive happily despite their economic hardships they find strength and support in family, most would never want to leave Colombia and are NOT looking for a gringo to save them. When they are given a job they work hard, despite poor wage, and a tough life. I am calling you Arrogant for thinking that just because someone is poor, means they are stupid or lazy or incapable of making anything of their lives.

I have standards as well, that I would find a wife that was humble, sincere, kind, loving, devoted, friendly, and honest. I always tried to stay clear of women advertised on amigos.com, or agencies for serious relationships. That shows desperation, and a desire to be with a foreigner for all the wrong reasons. I am sure they can make happy wives, for some men. But I always wanted someone who was made of tougher stuff, to be happy with what they have in Colombia and not advertise themselves for some gringo to make them happy. Those types of relationships can seem so scheduled and rehearsed. I wanted to fall in love with a person not a photo, I did not care where she was born or what type of house she has, as long as she is good person, and that we love each other.

[fathertime]

Hey Maritime!
[/size] Here I was enjoying another thoughtful post of yours and then you had to go and say this:[size=78%]  [/size]

[/size]I have standards as well, that I would find a wife that was humble, sincere, kind, loving, devoted, friendly, and honest. I always tried to stay clear of women advertised on amigos.com, or agencies for serious relationships. That shows desperation, and a desire to be with a foreigner for all the wrong reasons. I am sure they can make happy wives, for some men. But I always wanted someone who was made of tougher stuff, to be happy with what they have in Colombia and not advertise themselves for some gringo to make them happy. Those types of relationships can seem so scheduled and rehearsed. I wanted to fall in love with a person not a photo, I did not care where she was born or what type of house she has, as long as she is good person, and that we love each other. [/size]

Now before I comment, maybe you could expand a bit on the highlighted statement. What are the wrong reasons you are talking about here?   
[/size]Thanks,
[/size]Fathertime!

[htown]

I think the "wrong reasons" maritime speaks of are:


1. Money
2. American citizenship; Money
3. Help out her family; Money


To each his own but I think EVERYBODY already knows this and can just as easily call these the "right reasons".  Think about it.  A gringo is not attractive enough physically, financially, or socially to find himself what he considers a desirable wife in his home country.  What does he do?  He goes to Colombia where there are pretty, younger women who are not as interested in his looks or his charm and are very interested in his American passport and his 50k annual income.  She basically "takes one for the team" to help out her family.  Nothing wrong with that as long as all parties know exactly what they're getting into.


Personally I'd rather have a younger pretty wife who's with me for my  money than be old and lonely, or old and living with some old, fat, bitchy american woman.  It's not the tragedy that some make it out to be and I don't look down for one second on anyone who chooses to enter into this type of relationship.  You gotta respect someone who goes to great lengths to improve their own happiness and help others fulfill their lives in the process.  You only live once.

[fathertime]

I think the "wrong reasons" maritime speaks of are:


1. Money
2. American citizenship; Money
3. Help out her family; Money


 

Thanks for you opinion Htown!  I think it would be best to permit Maritime to state his reasoning for the statement, which may or may not be similar to yours.


Fathertime! 

[beginthebeguin]

I look at it this way. Finding a wife and a life partner is not a pissing contest. If someone is happy in their choice regardless how the choice was made or the circumstances leading up to that choice, well God bless 'em.
 
I often wonder if some of the golddiggers described here, after they had found their gringo, actually realized that their choice was not such an expedient one after all. And the gringo turned out to be a good choice in the long run.  We can't all be 'principes azules'     Hey, why to princes always have to be blue? Sounds like something out of a Disney movie. jajajajajajajaja 

[whitey]

Holy crap ... a lot to wade through here ...

First I think ill use your own words to make MY point.
<blockquote>Quote from: utopiacowboy on April 23, 2010, 05:55:22 PM
My rules would be:

1. She must be living on her own.
2. She must be a college educated professional who earns her own living.
3. She must own a car.
4. She must have a credit card and a bank account.
5. She must own her own house or apartment.
6. Her family must not be dependent on her in any way emotionally or financially.
7. All of the members of her family must meet rules 1 through 5.
</blockquote>Quote<blockquote>UC, are you serious?!  Most of those would be red flags for me.

This would narrow the dating pool down to less than 2% of the female population in Colombia, and less than 1% who is not "earning her own living" on her back or illegally.

And if she's got all that, she certainly doesn't need your average gringo.  She's going to need someone wealthy to afford a comparable lifestyle here with the maid, hair, manicures, etc.
</blockquote>
Ok with that said would you like to change your opinion again?? Or you could go on and try to make your point again!!

I don't think I've changed my opinion and I still stand by my comments above.  Do you disagree?  My wife happens to meet criteria #2, #4, and #5 on UC's list ... but the only one important to me is post secondary education.  I think I've mentioned recently that when I found out she owned her own house (it's rented - she's lives with her parents), I was initially intimidated by that.  Re the bank account and credit card ... not important to me, but someone with a half decent job is likely to have one - this isn't a negative for me.

I really do not care what your buddy say’s, I am more interested in your ACTUAL life experiences gained from FIRST HAND on the ground interactions and opinions that YOU have had. What we are talking about is someone visiting Colombia to FIND a wife or girlfriend there, WE ARE NOT talking about your personal life or your family or what your buddy say’s.

My buddy IS part of my actual life ... as are my friends, my wife, her friends and family.  My observations of them are my own, no less valid because I haven't actually lived them myself.  I was right next to my buddy on a three of my trips with his previous girlfriend. His current girlfriend has been up to Canada 3 times recently, and we've shared time together each visit.  I've also met in person 2 other of his ex-girlfriends.

As for my actual experience ... it is limited ... as is all of ours ... as yours seems to be sometimes to me.  I've had 11 trips to Colombia, 2 of them for 6 weeks at a time, about 6 months total.  But, I still have lot's to learn and will continue to do so.

Allot of your post I do not understand? are you saying that people who live in Estrato 1-2
1.       Do not work for a living?
2.       Have not entered secondary education?
Wow, that’s really LOW, dude. People in those estratos are not ALL lazy; sitting around collecting money from family, they are poor because when they work its often for 20,000 pesos a day with them paying 3,000 for transport daily so take home is 17,000 COP 6 days a week. You go head and live on 50 bucks a week, and tell me about the second bedroom you added!! There is VERY little upward mobility there PERIOD. Unless one has established family multiple family members workers and home for 30-40 years then you will have barrios like Belen, laurels, Pardo central ect….
You have ZERO understanding of living in Colombia I suggest you talk with your wife more on the subject.
I have meet many women from lower barrios studying in University Antioquia, they are lucky ones because often their families do not depend on them to earn a living and they are using that chance to better themselves. Those things cost money in Colombia, not much compared to the US but they do cost. I would never look down upon ANY colombiano who could not afford it or rather took on the responsibility of taking care of their family first BEFORE there education!

I agree with you - I think you misunderstood me.  At any rate, I didn't mean to imply that people living in estrato 1 or 2 do not work or are lazy.  What I believe I said was that it's unlikely that they will have a post secondary education (university level).  There may be some in estrato 2, but I doubt you could find many in estrato 1.

Just so it's clear: I don't think that a person is good or bad, worthly or unworthy, a better or worse mother/wife, etc. just because they have a university level education.  This is simply my personal preference, based on my own background and the fact that I think she would be more likely to adapt well to Canada and our lifestyle together.

I am calling you Arrogant for thinking that just because someone is poor, means they are stupid or lazy or incapable of making anything of their lives.

I didn't say that, and I don't believe that ... just probably wouldn't be a good match for me personally.  I wouldn't be dating a young woman in her early 20's that would have time to overcome a difficult beginning.  I would be dating a woman in her early to mid 30's, which would make her much less likely to be compatible with me after having lived a very challenging life for so long.

I have standards as well, that I would find a wife that was humble, sincere, kind, loving, devoted, friendly, and honest.

Those are very important qualities too ... very high on my list, and my wife has all of them.

I always tried to stay clear of women advertised on amigos.com, or agencies for serious relationships. That shows desperation, and a desire to be with a foreigner for all the wrong reasons. I am sure they can make happy wives, for some men. But I always wanted someone who was made of tougher stuff, to be happy with what they have in Colombia and not advertise themselves for some gringo to make them happy. Those types of relationships can seem so scheduled and rehearsed. I wanted to fall in love with a person not a photo, I did not care where she was born or what type of house she has, as long as she is good person, and that we love each other.

I got lucky, my buddy got lucky (several times), my wife's sister and several of her friends are online - I've met them and they seem like good people.  Other guys on this site have met women online.  So, there are good women online, but you have to filter out all the bad ones carefully ... and from what I hear, there are a lot of bad ones ...

But then ... what do I know ...

[Jeff S]

You know what, we're not looking for "most people" or "the average Colombiana," or doing some My Fair Lady social experiment, nor assigning and particular significance to rich, poor, class or anything else. We're looking for ONE person to be our teammate in life. Like you, Whitey, mine had to be educated, refined, worldly, intelligent, adaptable and a lot of other things including sincere, loving, attractive, devoted, honest. Not because I have any particular disdain for simple, ignorant, small town people or consider them beneath me. However since I only get to choose one out of the pool of 2 billion or so I get to pick the exact kind of person I want. It took 15 years and a dozen countries or so, but I'm happy in my choice and feel kind of sorry for those who settle for almost, or pick the best out of a small pool in some agency's catalog over the course of a 4 day visit or whatever. If someone is happy with a simple, small town girl who doesn't know much about the modern world - great marry one. There's no shame in wanting what you want and holding out til you get it.


I also don't get this constant reference to middle class and above, educated women from anywhere outside the US being bitchy and demanding maids and Paris Hilton lifestyles? I strongly suspect those making those kind of claims have never met or spent any time with a woman in that category so are just guessing. Maybe been rejected by a few. I've dated many, know many more and married one.

[whitey]

I also don't get this constant reference to middle class and above, educated women from anywhere outside the US being bitchy and demanding maids and Paris Hilton lifestyles? I strongly suspect those making those kind of claims have never met or spent any time with a woman in that category so are just guessing. Maybe been rejected by a few. I've dated many, know many more and married one.

Your wife has always sounded like a great woman, Jeff.

For me, someone from the upper classes of Colombian society would be out of my range.  Most would be accustomed to 1 or 2 servants, hair and nails done frequently in a salon, a finca or beach house, etc, etc.  I wouldn't be able to support that kind of lifestyle here - but it's doubtful I would be able to attract and maintain that kind of woman in the first place.

That doesn't mean they are bitchy or demanding though.  The friends we spent the evening with a couple weekends ago (very nice couple with 3 great kids) were quite well off in Colombia, and it's been a big step down for them to give up the things I've described above.

[InnocentVixen]

I think everyone here is pretty much talking about the same coin but different sides and most of you guys seem to be defending the side you know the most.


For all is worth I don't think a traditional woman regardless of her education that lives with her family will demand a maid even if she grew up with 2, if Colombia is anything like Mexico this maids are often working for the family for years and they are seen as part of the family, I can bet that his lady has learned how to take care of a home from a maid and often found herself helping her out in her duties while growing up.


Missing the manicure, hair, massage or any other spa treatment sort of thing that you guys consider luxuries? don't underestimate how savvy a latina can be, this are things that even some dirt poor girls get done, they will learn how to do it themselves, well except for the massage but I am sure the husband would gladly volunteer for it once in a while right? or simply find an affordable place to get it done and make it last.


Not long ago I had the chance to spend time with BG on vacation and it was interesting to hear about her culture, before this we had emailed but we would mainly talk about the forum an compare notes on how our search was going. I was very surprised to learn that washing machines are not common over there for example! no wonder they need a maid, only with the washing someone would have their hands full, would you find it fair to be judged as a rich high maintenance lazy guy just because you have a washing machine?


@Htown I think your post was great, as long as nobody is being lied to I not only not judge but applaud those who go for what they want even if that is a golddigger

[maritime04]

I will be honest as I was offended to what whiety was saying before. I am hardnosed, quick to anger and anything else you want to say about me. What I am not is a classist person; I do not judge anyone by the value of their home, or the opportunities that life has given them. Whitey made some large implications about the people who live in lower estratos. It sounded to me you were saying that being poor meant you were incapable of adapting to western lifestyle, and despite being given the same opportunities would meet with greater odds of failure in marriage and life. That somehow the high paced lifestyle of the western world would be too much for a poor barrio girl. I especially took offense to the comment about shared values; you implied that a women due to the value of her home, has lesser code of conduct or ability to reason right from wrong. That is classist at best, rude and arrogant at worst. You like many upper estrato Colombian hold the opinion that people are where they live, that because they come from a lower estrato they are incapable of a good work ethic, sound morals and decent values? You ended all this by saying that poor women would make great wives for certain type of man, just not you, I wonder what type of man you implied?
Let me explain this to you, the worth of a man or women is not found in the value of their personal belongings but by the character they demonstrate; You can easily find an educated, intelligent, devoted, loving women in the poorest barrios as the wealthy ones. Your chances of a successful marriage do not increase with the amount of pesos one earns, but the amount of patients, love and understanding one has. Listen I say what I mean, I rarely hold back. You can say I meant it one way or another and that I was mistaken but I think I heard you clear enough the first time.
I judge people by what they do and their actions, I thought I was clear the first time around. But to further clarify my statement, I normally never took any women who advertised themselves on agency lists or match making websites seriously because it showed a level of need/desire to find a foreigner. I used the word desperate but want I really meant was desire to find and create a relationship with a foreigner because they had given up looking for “love” with local guys. I will not go so far as saying every women out there is looking for money. For me it was the action of advertising yourself that said I am looking for something better than I can find at home; its the giving up It shows meekness , Just as whiety has his standards of values and character which he believes is adequately shown women having a good paying job, has gone to college and comes from a good estrato I too have my standards of character which is not meet by women who advertise themselves for western men in order to find love. Actions always speak louder than words.

[utopiacowboy]

I will be honest as I was offended to what whiety was saying before. I am hardnosed, quick to anger and anything else you want to say about me. What I am not is a classist person; I do not judge anyone by the value of their home, or the opportunities that life has given them. Whitey made some large implications about the people who live in lower estratos. It sounded to me you were saying that being poor meant you were incapable of adapting to western lifestyle, and despite being given the same opportunities would meet with greater odds of failure in marriage and life. That somehow the high paced lifestyle of the western world would be too much for a poor barrio girl. I especially took offense to the comment about shared values; you implied that a women due to the value of her home, has lesser code of conduct or ability to reason right from wrong. That is classist at best, rude and arrogant at worst. You like many upper estrato Colombian hold the opinion that people are where they live, that because they come from a lower estrato they are incapable of a good work ethic, sound morals and decent values? You ended all this by saying that poor women would make great wives for certain type of man, just not you, I wonder what type of man you implied?
Let me explain this to you, the worth of a man or women is not found in the value of their personal belongings but by the character they demonstrate; You can easily find an educated, intelligent, devoted, loving women in the poorest barrios as the wealthy ones. Your chances of a successful marriage do not increase with the amount of pesos one earns, but the amount of patients, love and understanding one has. Listen I say what I mean, I rarely hold back. You can say I meant it one way or another and that I was mistaken but I think I heard you clear enough the first time.
I judge people by what they do and their actions, I thought I was clear the first time around. But to further clarify my statement, I normally never took any women who advertised themselves on agency lists or match making websites seriously because it showed a level of need/desire to find a foreigner. I used the word desperate but want I really meant was desire to find and create a relationship with a foreigner because they had given up looking for “love” with local guys. I will not go so far as saying every women out there is looking for money. For me it was the action of advertising yourself that said I am looking for something better than I can find at home; its the giving up It shows meekness , Just as whiety has his standards of values and character which he believes is adequately shown women having a good paying job, has gone to college and comes from a good estrato I too have my standards of character which is not meet by women who advertise themselves for western men in order to find love. Actions always speak louder than words.

My wife would have been quite content to have married a Colombiano and stayed in Medellin the rest of her life. Even though she had her profile on amigos, she was not looking for an extranjero. The sad fact is few Colombianos want a 42 year old widow with three children no matter how beautiful or charming she is.

As for my "rules", in the time before I met my wife, I had three girlfriends, a Canadian, an American and a Mexican and all of them were independent women who could stand on their own two feet. All that list indicates is whether a woman is financially and emotionally independent - no more no less - and that is the main quality important to me. Unlike many guys here, I had no interest in Colombian women and encountered my wife's profile by accident while looking for Mexicanas who lived close to me in Texas (I lived in a sparsely populated area close to the border).   

[maritime04]

Htown
I would not classify money, more money , American citizenship (access to money) or the desire to help out family members as the wrong reasons, or even the right reasons; I will only say they should not be the ONLY reasons, we are talking about marriage and family not about a live in girlfriend you want to show off.
There is a lot more to it then what you are talking about, I think allot of guys place more value here on traditional role of male/female relationships in marriage then looks and youth. Your honest in what you say, but you STOP and do not go any farther. You say you would rather have a younger pretty wife who is with you for money, and then you do not say anything about the risks of a relationship like that. I am not talking about loss of financial income, but more what happens when she realizes she can do better?
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110915/news/709159893/
It happens especially if your only criteria were youth and beauty, unless you plan on always doubling your income till you reach millionaire I think you better add loyalty to that list.
I think it’s dangerous to place your value on how much you earn rather then what type of man you are; that type of thinking can lead to a horrible life of shallow behavior and the inevitable down fall
http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/real_housewives_star_taylor_armstrong_9vAL1GoDO5xESy9yxiTsgM
It makes sense to be more realistic in finding that life partner; a little common sense will go a long way.

[whitey]

I will be honest as I was offended to what whiety was saying before. I am hardnosed, quick to anger and anything else you want to say about me. What I am not is a classist person; I do not judge anyone by the value of their home, or the opportunities that life has given them. Whitey made some large implications about the people who live in lower estratos. It sounded to me you were saying that being poor meant you were incapable of adapting to western lifestyle, and despite being given the same opportunities would meet with greater odds of failure in marriage and life. That somehow the high paced lifestyle of the western world would be too much for a poor barrio girl. I especially took offense to the comment about shared values; you implied that a women due to the value of her home, has lesser code of conduct or ability to reason right from wrong. That is classist at best, rude and arrogant at worst. You like many upper estrato Colombian hold the opinion that people are where they live, that because they come from a lower estrato they are incapable of a good work ethic, sound morals and decent values? You ended all this by saying that poor women would make great wives for certain type of man, just not you, I wonder what type of man you implied?
Let me explain this to you, the worth of a man or women is not found in the value of their personal belongings but by the character they demonstrate; You can easily find an educated, intelligent, devoted, loving women in the poorest barrios as the wealthy ones. Your chances of a successful marriage do not increase with the amount of pesos one earns, but the amount of patients, love and understanding one has. Listen I say what I mean, I rarely hold back. You can say I meant it one way or another and that I was mistaken but I think I heard you clear enough the first time.
I judge people by what they do and their actions, I thought I was clear the first time around. But to further clarify my statement, I normally never took any women who advertised themselves on agency lists or match making websites seriously because it showed a level of need/desire to find a foreigner. I used the word desperate but want I really meant was desire to find and create a relationship with a foreigner because they had given up looking for “love” with local guys. I will not go so far as saying every women out there is looking for money. For me it was the action of advertising yourself that said I am looking for something better than I can find at home; its the giving up It shows meekness , Just as whiety has his standards of values and character which he believes is adequately shown women having a good paying job, has gone to college and comes from a good estrato I too have my standards of character which is not meet by women who advertise themselves for western men in order to find love. Actions always speak louder than words.

Maritime, it gets pretty tiring when no matter what I say, you interpret it in the worst possible way.  I really think that says more about you than me, however.

We should have a beer sometime ... if you met Nazly and I, you'd know within 2 minutes I'm not the straw man you've created and set on fire ...

[Jeff S]

Whitey - that's the second of the Four Agreements (ancient Toltec Wisdom) ...

2. Don’t Take Anything Personally


Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

[maritime04]

I doubt I would end up dating a women from estrato 1 and probably not estrato 2 either ... but only because they likely wouldn't have post secondary education or be working.
why would I lower my personal standard?..... I'm looking to marry someone who is relatively my equal
Finding a woman with a similar background to me (middle class, post high school education, working) was important to me so that we would share common values and experiences, which I believe improves our odds of a successful marriage over time.  I also wanted someone who had a good probability of adapting well here and being happy.
I will let my words speak for themselves, and anyone who cares to make assumptions about my character should just come out and say what they mean.
All I am trying to say is that all the qualities you and jeff speak of can be found in a woman in any estrato, they are not merely attached to one group of individuals.
Like you, Whitey, mine had to be educated, refined, worldly, intelligent, adaptable and a lot of other things including sincere, loving, attractive, devoted, honest. Not because I have any particular disdain for simple, ignorant, small town people or consider them beneath me.
That’s not the argument, the real issue is you think finding an intelligent, adaptable, loving, sincere person from a small poor town is impossible. That and it seems you are saying people from small towns are simple and ignorant?
Again I can only read what you write….maybe I am mistaken here I can admit my personal views are strong, and from time to time I make mistakes.

[Jeff S]

You must have taken lessons from my grandmother. When she'd to give me two shirts for Christmas and I'd put one on, she's always say, "You didn't like the other one."

[maritime04]

i am glad you consider me family

[whitey]

That’s not the argument, the real issue is you think finding an intelligent, adaptable, loving, sincere person from a small poor town is impossible. That and it seems you are saying people from small towns are simple and ignorant?
Again I can only read what you write….maybe I am mistaken here I can admit my personal views are strong, and from time to time I make mistakes.

Not impossible, just harder.  There are many more to choose from in the bigger cities, not just because of the larger population, but because bigger cities "breed" more women in this particular category.   

Are people from small towns more simple than people from big cities?  Yes - I think that is usually the case although individual people vary, and is generally true the world over.  It's certainly true here in Canada too. 

I don't mean simple in any bad sense of the word ... just less complex.  My wife is from Barranquilla, a city of 1.2 million ... and generally barranquilleros are less complex than bogotanos.  My wife describes herself as descomplicada, and I've noticed that my costeno friends are generally more laid back than my cachaco friends.

As for ignorant ... that's generally not a word in my vocabulary, and  I certainly wouldn't apply it to whole classes of people based on the size of their town. 

[Researcher]

      I really don't get the idea that where a woman lives or whether she is educated has anything to do with what kind of wife she would be. After many relationships I learned that none of this stuff means anything. Now that I have the best relationship I have ever had in my life I have to say the place and education level of my wife had little if nothing to do with it. My wife is from Bogota and is perfectly happy, really happier, living in a small town. I wouldn't consider her "complicated" whatever that means. I do consider her respectful, loving, kind,....you know, qualities that are standout for a spouse. If I were a guy looking to get married I would look for those qualities. Where you find them doesn't matter.

       Researcher

[Kiltboy1]

Women are Women no matter where they come from. Values are Values and either you have them or you don't. Strata means nothing if you have a family nucleus that stresses values.I have 5 years now married to the best woman I could imagine. What she has that made her shine above all others is "VALUES" And Maritime, you better lose that temper and easy to piss off attitude if you ever want to find  a woman that has values  , because she will not put up with that crap.
 
KB

[maritime04]

I would respect the advice if it actually came from someone invloved in the conversation. I can take a insult i am not made of glass, just strong about my opinions and will always defend my reasons with logic, and sound thought not implied insults about character, thanks for the advice though...