Power, communication, perception

[JWR]

I've been around this board since the mid 90s, have two failed international relationships, one 3 years, and one 10 years.  I've changed my screen name because I lost my password, and changed emails, while I was married.  I am certainly not the poster child for successful international relationships considering my lousy track record, but I have developed a few ideas about why some of these relationships fail.
 
I think one of the main reasons that these relationships fail is because of power, communication issues, and perception differences.
 
When you bring one of these girls over from outside the US, you have more power then you ever had with an American women.  It's your house she moves into, you control the transportation, the money, and most often you've bought her many gifts, and things she needs to live here.   Also in most cases the guy is older and that shifts the power in itself.  You have the power weather you like it or not.
 
If you chose well, you married a smart, strong women that has enjoyed her own independence in her own country, and is not used to being in a situation that has stripped her of most of her power.  She's going to be uncomfortable with this right from the beginning.
 
Because of this balance of power inequality, communication usually suffers.  She may not feel comfortable expressing herself, and "whining", or complaining, because of all the things that you have already done for her, and this "percieved" power imballance.  You may at this point think "life is good" she's happy, and "wow she is so different then my American girlfriends".  But, all relationships have their frustrations, and without open communication, and the free expression of these frustrations between a couple, toxic waste begins to buildup.  Because of these power issues, I believe the girls feel somewhat trapped in the beginning, and already have thoughts of escaping the situation.
 
While she is living with these feelings of being trapped, and maybe even feeling panicky, we are enjoying the honeymoon, great sex, and "finally have it all"  Even if you understand her perspective and you try to share the power right from day 1, she will most likely still feel all of these feelings. 
 
We are often living in the dark and have no idea what a struggle she is going through dealing with these issues.
 
This is where perception comes in.  We start to do things for the girl to give her back some of her power.  We hire a driving instructor, buy her a car, send her to english classes, or enroll her in college.  Introduce her to new friends, and encourage her to develope her own new hobbies and interests.  In our mind we are encouraging, being supportive, and "giving".    This may only make her feel less powerful, because we are still continuing to do more and more for her.  Her perception is that she has less and less power.  Smart strong women don't feel comfortable with this at all.  The more independent and strong your girl was in her country, the more turmoil she will experience in her head.
 
But all of this is the nature of the beast.  There's no way of getting around you having most of the power in the beginning.  Even if you are the most gentle spirited guy, it's just the way it is.
 
All couples have arguments, and dissagreements, and during these arguments, because of her percieved precarious situation with little power, these arguments cause more damage to the relationship 100 times more then any argument that you ever had with your American girlfriends.  Any argument may be so painful and scary for the girl, that this negative experience with you may be filed into the back of her brain, and never forgiven, or forgotten.  Normal dissagreements can cause grave damage to the marriage.  Once again you are in the dark, and often have no idea how much damage was done during an argument.
 
The type of guy that goes to another country to find a wife is usually a strong willed guy who is independent, thinks outside the box, and is a problems solver.  With our new wives, we see the problems she's going through, develope and offer solutions, and try to "fix them".  This is often percieved as taking even more control from your wife, and only exacerbates the situation further.  But that is our nature, and by that nature, this is how they got here to begin with.
 
So basically no matter what you do, or how supportive you are, your new wife may not feel the independence that she enjoyed in her own country, and the ball is already rolling toward your divorce.  The ball may be rolling very slowly, and you don't even know that it's in motion, but without increased communication and understanding, you are going to be single again.
 
When she gets her new boyfriend in the US, there is equal power.  With all your love and support, she's learned to drive, learned the language, made new friends,  may have a job, and if you've been a good guy, she feels good about herself. 
 
Because of lack of communication, differences in perception, and cultural differences, the guy is really left asking many questions about what went wrong?  Often because she never felt completely comfortable expressing herself because of her percieved power difference, you never really knew what was happening from the beginning.
 
Guys often go to other countries to meet girls because they have been "over powered" by over bearing American women.  So when they get their new foreign wife here, they try to hang onto some control and power that they may not have seen in a long time.  Because of the new foreign wife multiplying any of this percieved power in her head by 10x, the relationship becomes increasingly precarious.
 
Both of my ex's are strong independent women happy with their lives here in the US.  One is re-married, and has a child with her new husband, and the other is a highly paid intensive care RN.  I have been the ultimate cheer leader in my marriages encouraging independence, and to chase their dreams.  Yes, I've made some mistakes like all husbands, and I have a few regrets. 
 
We've sailed the oceans of the world together, started and sold businesses together, lived in other countries, and had amazing adventures.  It's been a wild ride.

But in the end, these girls often take back the percieved control that they think they lost years ago.
 
 
You ask "can love conquer all"?  Good question, but once she takes back the power in her life here in the US, she will have no problem finding love.
 
I don't have the solutions, but I do recognise some of the challenges.
 
Suggestions?
 
 

[Jeff S]

Naturally you are looking at this from a man's point of view. Your post reminds me a bit of Zulu's saying expressing his desire to be king. While these may be clear in the mind of a man, we're talking about women here- who don't think anything like men. If a strong, independent-minded woman feels powerless in your relationship and clams up out of fear, more likely than not, it is because you're unaware of her attempts at communication, or unwilling to give her that opportunity. Most women don't do things or look at the world as opportunities to compete - on the other hand, they look at it as opportunities to cooperate. If you approach the relationship as if you are two members of the same team, who have each others backs and rely on each other for a life synergy, you won't be trying to "fix" her problems, but both coming up with plans on how to work together on them - including her on the decisions, but OK, you getting the final say - after all, a team needs a quarterback. If she feels like a part of the team, she won't be wondering what it will be like to go it alone or casting about for a new quarterback.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[JWR]

I agree.
 
My wife managed our businesses, stood watch on our sailboat as we sailed across oceans, and was treated as a complete equal from day one.  I never wanted more control, or looked to have more power.
 
Problems is I think the inherent situation from where they come from into our world makes them feel less powerful from the beginning.  I always referred to everything we had and did as "ours".  She referred to our things as "yours".  It's a perception difference that we run up against.

[z_k_g]

Jeff,

With all due respect, my post in the Latin forum was not about wanting to be "king" over anyone it was about being the "king" of and leader of my household.

This is a good opportunity to discuss in more detail on your ACTIONS and how to build interpersonal relationships.....which at the end of the day will determine whether you succeed or fail in your marriage, friendships or life in general, not about what WORDS we chose to describe it.

Zulu

[z_k_g]

I agree.
 
My wife managed our businesses, stood watch on our sailboat as we sailed across oceans, and was treated as a complete equal from day one.  I never wanted more control, or looked to have more power.
 
Problems is I think the inherent situation from where they come from into our world makes them feel less powerful from the beginning.  I always referred to everything we had and did as "ours".  She referred to our things as "yours".  It's a perception difference that we run up against.

JWR,

Power, ownership and decisions are related but are mutually exclusive.  You can have power, but no ability to make a decision, like wise you can have ownership but no power, possession of one does not guarantee the other.

Sharing possessions, bank accounts and responsibilities is the foundation of a trusting, balanced and loving relationship.

But....in any relationship, at some point, a critical final decision has to be made and sooner or later you and your wife will not agree on that decision.  At this point what you share as a couple is irrelevant.

The question is who will make that critical final decision at this point when you and your wife cannot, will not, absolutely agree?

In my house, it is understood, as the leader, the "king" of the house, that I will make that call and with that comes the full responsibility of the decision and its consequences, good or bad.

Your wife married you for this reason, to make this final decision, she has entrusted you with her (and your children's) future, safety and well being.

The buck stops with you, the "king".

Zulu

[Jeff S]

No intent to belittle your attitude Z, and I get your distinction between being the boss and being a merciless dictator. Just pointing out how differently men and women think.

[jm21-2]

Where were your wives from?


I'm trying to imagine my wife feeling powerless and just can't. Also thinking about the sacrifices she made in coming over here and none of the stuff I've done for her compares.


Also thinking if I cheered my wife on to go be independent and become gainfully employed, our marriage would be over fast. I make her give up so much and she travels all the way over here, goes through denigrating immigration processes, and then I push her to be independent? I cringe at the thought of what she would do....

[JWR]

It helps to marry a women that is generally happy with herself.
 
Some people are just happier then others in their outlook in life.
 
When we were travelling and sailing our 42' sailboat full time, she was bored and said her brain was turning to jello, and she needed to go to college.  When we lived in Costa Rica, she didn't like the Ticos, and said they didn't like Colombians.  When we lived in San Francisco, it was too cold.  When she finally went to college, she didn't like her teachers, and now that she is a nurse, she hates nursing.  She never was pressured to work or become independent.  These were her ideas, and I just encouraged her along the way.
 
Sometimes your fate is sealed the day they get off the plane.  It's only a matter of time.
 

Where were your wives from?


I'm trying to imagine my wife feeling powerless and just can't. Also thinking about the sacrifices she made in coming over here and none of the stuff I've done for her compares.


Also thinking if I cheered my wife on to go be independent and become gainfully employed, our marriage would be over fast. I make her give up so much and she travels all the way over here, goes through denigrating immigration processes, and then I push her to be independent? I cringe at the thought of what she would do....

[fathertime]

Thanks for that initial post JWR, your experience and willingness to share make a great resource for the rest of us.  I liked Jeff's first followup as well.


Fathertime! 

[maritime04]

 
Thanks for the post it gave me some insight and thoughts about the upcoming relocation. Your perspective is intresting, and seems like you have reflected allot about those past events. Communication between couples who speak the same language can be difficult, and must be even harder for the typical international couple. I always tell my fiance that she can tell me anything, especially her problems and issues, women tend to have difficulty speaking up especially when they are angry.
 
I dont really understand the "power" issue, and the resentment that seems to have happend to you. Of course i am going to be the leader, becuase its my country how can she possible navigate around when shes never been there and doesnt speak the language?
 
Relocating to another country is a HUGE ordeal, there will be times when she is NOT happy, I expect this. But i can see where the man may think everything is going good, when its not. Thanks for the insight
 
 
 
 
He who builds his house upon the sand.............................

[z_k_g]

Of course i am going to be the leader, becuase its my country how can she possible navigate around when shes never been there and doesnt speak the language?

Maritime,

Interesting comment you made "Of course i am going to be the leader".   

So what do you call that?  Head of my house?  Big Daddy of my house? The Decider of my house? or Just the Leader of my house?  (All Political correct terms in my book)

I 100% agree with you, and I term it the "king" of my household because that's what you are, no matter how fluffy the wording.

Before the feminist movement, that's what most of us men proudly called ourselves. 

Nowadays, when you use that word "king" all hell breaks loose and you get hit from every side of the spectrum with every known negative, abusive and derisive label in the book.

You get accused of being a tyrant and dictator or worse.  And in the context of marrying a foreign bride you get chastised even further because the simple use of that word "king" evokes memories of domineering, selfish and bone headed men who simply abused their foreign wives.

Listen, the bottom line is this.  If you are not the decider then your wife is the final decider, plain and simple.  Someone has to make the final decision, someone has to have the final authority, no questions asked.  Someone has to "make heads roll".

I use the word "king" in the context of leadership, not to invoke any god given privledge or to justify any type of abusive overbearing unfair authority over the female population or deny them suffrage and equal rights under the law!  (This is what the feminist want you to believe)

The truth of the matter is, your wife ALLOWS you to lead (that's why she picked you over some other schmuck in the first place), she submits to you (another word the feminists wish to abolish from the english language), you do not and cannot force, threaten or coerce to gain leadership in a healthy interpersonal relationship (that's pretty much kidnapping in my book and last time I checked that was not only illegal but stupid).

Submission (another very good word) is the act of allowing someone to lead.  Most men don't really understand submission or submissive because feminists have debased this term and mad it into a very bad word for women.  (Oh yeah, It also doesn't mean cooking, cleaning, walking 5 paces behind you and bowing when you walk into the room )

The word is better understood in the context of the military where submission to authority is recognizing and accepting leadership unconditionally, and you are bound by an oath to obey or get severely punished.

In the context of the family or relationships, the wording is the slightly changed.  Submission is recognizing and accepting leadership of your husband conditionally.   This slight wording change is significant, because in the family context, you wife can always walk away if she looses confidence in your ability to lead and make the right decisions.  She is not your soldier or slave; you f*ck up too many times, she leaves.

 Clearly, in order for any family (or organization) to achieve any measure of success, someone has to lead and someone has to follow.  (Maybe you disagree)

Successful relationships (or any organization for that matter) can not be led by committee.  Ironically, If a woman perceives you as weak or indecisive she will lose respect for you and either dominate you (cuck you or turn you into a bitchboy) or leave.

When you are the leader the buck stops with you and your woman and children will respect, trust and follow your lead.

This is not democratic and its not meant to be.

Now here is the big catch, Leadership not only grants you the privilege and authority to make the final decision it also requires that you bear all RESPONSIBILITY for your decisions.  Nice Huh?

Well thought out and succinct decisions are a must because you (and your family) will enjoy the benefits and suffer the consequences of your actions.

Leadership is not for the faint of heart and quite honestly we don't always do a good job, there was no relationship leader training class in high school or college. 

But that is why we choose our female partners well, i.e. don't marry based on looks and don't marry a bimbo.  Because, like a good general, the role of the wife is to provide good council to her husband, and a hot babe with no brains can't provide you good council.  (And you will have stupid kids )

I believe that the female's support role is not an invented human construct, its ordained by god and manifests itself in our physiolgy and geneology.

Women are built to bear, raise and nurture children.

Men are built to protect, hunt and build and lead.

Our roles have been chosen and predetermined.

Z

[fathertime]

JWR,


In retrospect, can you tell the members a few things that you would have done differently as it relates to your 10 year marriage?  If I remember correctly you guys had at least one child together, how is that part of the divorce working out?


Thanks,
Fathertime!

[JWR]

Ok I'm going to try not to ramble.
20/20 is hindsight but here goes.
Stay fit and go to the gym.  I'm 6'2 190 but gained 30 lbs while married.
I wanted a kid, she hates kids.  Women who hate kids have something cold about them.
Should have gotten to know her better before marriage. 6 weeks was not enough.
Buy her the dam# motorcycle.  I  offered, but was worried she would kill herself and discouraged her.  She resented me for that.....
When her best friend comes to visit for months and is broke, keep your mouth shut about supporting her friend.  I made a stupid comment and regret that.
Take freakin tango lessons if she wants you to.
We went out alot, but still watched too much TV and internet. 
Don't make major life changes because she has trouble learning English and adjusting. (Like moving to Costa Rica)
Keep her away from the friends that are not totally accepting of your relationship. Especially the wives.
Try not to marry someone who has PTSD, and violence in her past.
Try to marry someone who comes from a loving family situation.
Hire a translator to come over at least once a week when she 1st gets here to clear up any misunderstandings that you may not even know exist.
Try to marry a forgiving person, who will allow you to make some small mistakes without filing them away to use later as a weapon.  Try to marry someone who can say "I'm sorry"
Should have had sex before we were married.  Big mistake.  We just don't fit that well.  Big mistake.
Try marriage counseling when things start going bad.
Assume she is changing before your very eyes if she's in her 20s.  You may not like the changes.
Never take her for granted and don't assume that this will last forever.
Do not underestimate how bad it will be for you, if you break up, so go slow.  It's easier to get in, then get out with your sanity.  Accept that this is exceedingly risky in the best of circumstances.  You can do many right things, and be a good person, and it still may not work out.
 
She's a good person.
 
 

JWR,


In retrospect, can you tell the members a few things that you would have done differently as it relates to your 10 year marriage?  If I remember correctly you guys had at least one child together, how is that part of the divorce working out?


Thanks,
Fathertime!

[maritime04]

^{I will agree with the male macho vibe I am feeling about being the decider, and leading the way but to go so far as call yourself” KING”, you have another thing coming if you expect a Columbiana to take that, I agree with going into a relationship and not accepting an intresada using you as ATM, but definitely not a good game plan to act like your [snip] doesn’t stink!!! Many guys (gringos) do this, but they live in Colombia where they can maintain total control, or they think they do!!!!! These girls are out partying and screwing their local novios, or worse. It’s how things are in Colombia.
Personally I think it’s bad karma to go into a relationship with the “NEXT” attitude, sure she can easily be replaced if she does not conform to your requests, and shows you the slightest bit of wrong attitude, but many of you are hoping to relocate back to the US of A; where the balance of power will shift in her favor, would you like it if after a few years of US living she shows you the same ATTITUDE?  Because let’s face it, she CAN……………………….. Better to be a little more compassionate and understating, look to compromise and communicate, treat people how you want to be treated.}

 
^{What exactly did i write that you did not agree with??? I am a leader who is part of team, and when we relocate i will be leading the way much more often becuase I know the lay of the land.
 
Colombians ARE NOT ASIAN women, i have been to asia i have seen how they act and what is expected of them. Colombian women are alittle harder to deal with, but they have their rewards. I never attacked your view point, just gave my opinon that Latin women would be alittle hostile to a "kings" rule overthem, and its a bit of bad karma to act like you [snip] doesnt stink, thats about it.
 
You live your life they way you want, you will find a women who you mesh with as best you can.}

[Jeff S]

Thanks for the hindsight. I'm going to say that these things are pretty much the root cause of all of the others:

Try not to marry someone who has PTSD, and violence in her past.
Try to marry someone who comes from a loving family situation.

And those should have loomed large when you were dating, or at the very least been on your radar. You summed it up well in an earlier post:

It helps to marry a women that is generally happy with herself.

[tessbrittain]

Hmmm good post but after reading it I conclude that you were looking for a perfect marriage. There is nothing perfect in this world guys, marriage is about 2 imperfect people making it work. It doesn't matter if she's a foreign wife or not.


Marriage needs 2 for it to work. Plain and simple.  You just have to go with the flow.


Been married for 11 years, we fight just like any couples and also I miss where I came from but at the end of the day I am happy and always grateful and appreciate my Hubby  and all the blessings that come our way.


Tess

[robert angel]

Thanks for that initial post JWR, your experience and willingness to share make a great resource for the rest of us.  I liked Jeff's first followup as well.


Fathertime!

That's a great question Fathertime and it's generated some good responses--thanks! As I recall, you've traveled to different areas of the world 'in search' of the right partner, been married a number of times and have children from more than one marriage--I am certain your experience would also offer members some excellent insights to members here. Could you also share your experiences, at least in the areas that you asked about?

[Researcher]

   Great post JWR and I relate to how my wife feels somewhat because I know how difficult it can be to live in a different country. But as far as relationships go, and longevity, I have learned something that applies to all my relationships with women.

   It isn't how good you treat them, how much money you have, how attractive you are, etc...so much as it is about having a connection that is mutual. Call it love, chemistry or both but I have learned this is the most important thing.

   When I was single and looking I wanted to meet as many women as I could because out of a group there would always be some that I felt a connection with. Then out of those I would look for the ones I felt had the same feeling about me. That usually narrowed it down pretty quick. I then dated until it was one woman and began a serious relationship. I never worried about her leaving because she was in it for the same reason I was: a connection.

   I felt this way about my wife pretty quick. After a few dates I could tell she felt the same. Now that she is here I know exactly what JWR is talking about. I do feel like I have some power but I believe my wife could survive anywhere, honestly. I also believe she wouldn't hesitate to return to Colombia if she thought I wasn't a good husband. She was the bread winner in her household in Colombia and her family would welcome her back in a second, especially her Mom. But even if that weren't the case my wife and I both feel a close connection with one another and that is why we are together I believe. That's what I looked for when I was single because it takes more than money, looks, sex (yes sex), etc... to make a relationship work.

     My wife and I started out with a mutual connection and as we are building our lives it seems to only get stronger. I help her and she helps me. I think that's the best we can do. The main thing seems to be that our relationship is important to both of us.

[maritime04]

well put researcher

[Zon]

Interesting points!   I have noticed that while members here are very transparent finding a wife / girl friend, they CLAM UP once they become married     Perhaps it is natural ...

The ball may be rolling very slowly, and you don't even know that it's in motion, but without increased communication and understanding, you are going to be single again.
 
When she gets her new boyfriend in the US, there is equal power.

WOW TIGER!  Are we leaving a little out of the story?

Then further I read that you knew your wife for less than 6 seeks, never had a physical relationship, ect...    I want to ask anyone who would do this:  WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?   You brought a complete stranger into the center of your life!   That is one of the only strong and constant criticisms I maintain with almost everybody - It Takes Time To Honestly KNOW A Person.  (I would say a minimum of 60 - 90 days together; MINIMUM.  If you fail to do that, you are playing "Let's Make A Deal", and simply guessing what's behind door #1, 2, or 3.)

Researcher, I think you are absolutely right.  There is something human, call it a connection.   Once you have this with a person, truly, AT LEAST you are operating on the same page as human beings.

[JWR]

Yes, I had spent about 6 weeks with her in Colombia before we got married.  Of course I knew her longer.  That's 15 days short of your minimum 60 days, ha ha ha.  I agree with you, it's not enough time especially with the language differences.
 
But in that time, I met and married a pretty nice girl that shared over 10 years of my life with.  Neither of us are perfect, she helped take care of my Mom when she was dying.  It didn't last forever, but it was pretty darned good while it lasted.  I'm not bitter, or angry with her.  You takes your chances.
 
Who would do that?  Well me, and most of the guys here.  How many guys that marry these girls spend more then 6 weeks actual face time together if we can get them to admit it anyway?  This whole process is a crap shoot from the beginning, and rushing things makes it even riskier.  Chasing a girl in another country that doesn't speak English is not exactly a genius move to begin with, so other stupid decisions usually follow.
 
Sometimes when you chase conservative catholic girls, they want to wait for sex til marriage.  There are some of those girls left in Colombia.  I didn't dump her for holding to her values.
 
The reason the half of the guys don't come back here after their divorces, is because we already feel like an idiot for making some of these stupid decisions. Also we don't really need our mistakes rubbed in our faces after we tell our stories, so be a little careful how you respond to some of us.  I'm thick skinned and can take it, but if we want all sorts of viewpoints and opinions on the board, careful with your word choices.  I think alot of these guys are often embarrassed, and didn't follow the advice given around here.
 
 
On the ground in these countries, the reality is "reason" often goes out the window when in the company of one of these beautiful girls.  You don't need a scopolamine to wake up on some later date and ask yourself "what did I just do, and what was I thinking".  Beauty is a powerful drug.  .
 
Why do guys disappear from the board after they are married?  Well for many of us, this board is just used as a means to an end.  After we are married, then it's just life, so why spend so much time online when you could be enjoying your wife?  Hopefully your wife is better company then the guys around here.
 
 
 
 
 

Interesting points!   I have noticed that while members here are very transparent finding a wife / girl friend, they CLAM UP once they become married     Perhaps it is natural ...

WOW TIGER!  Are we leaving a little out of the story?

Then further I read that you knew your wife for less than 6 seeks, never had a physical relationship, ect...    I want to ask anyone who would do this:  WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?   You brought a complete stranger into the center of your life!   That is one of the only strong and constant criticisms I maintain with almost everybody - It Takes Time To Honestly KNOW A Person.  (I would say a minimum of 60 - 90 days together; MINIMUM.  If you fail to do that, you are playing "Let's Make A Deal", and simply guessing what's behind door #1, 2, or 3.)

Researcher, I think you are absolutely right.  There is something human, call it a connection.   Once you have this with a person, truly, AT LEAST you are operating on the same page as human beings.

[dennislevy]

If a man wants to respect a latina s desire not to make love until after the wedding, that s a choice made from tradition, from religious beliefs...from MAKING a committment before the act and maybe he loves the woman THAT much.
 
Some men, probably not a lot, but some may feel the same way that some women do..to practice sexual abstinence before marriage.
 
A couple of times here in Colombia a woman has told me that she wouldn t sleep with me before a marriage. Both women had been married before, one to an American (they met in an agency), the other to a colombiano and she had grown up kids.
 
I didn t  argue, I didnt discuss, I simply said I respect you and your values, but I cant live like that, so I wish you good luck in finding the right man for you, kissed them on the cheek...and ...NEXT.
 
I cant imagine marrying a woman after knowing her for only six weeks, but I married an American woman that I had known for 117 days and the dating and courtship lasted longer then the marriage!  And we both spoke English!!!!!!
 
Yes it not a genius move to fall in love with a woman who doesnt speak English.....but its also not a genius move to not try to speak her language. And ALWAYS my first piece of advice...and as far as I m concerned, its not a genius move, but it s just common sense.....
 
for any man wanting to come to South America, before you worry about sex or how to find and choose a good woman for a wife.....
 
LEARN some Spanish or Portuguese (if you go to Brazil) before you show up for the first trip.  Even beginner plus.. the abilty to form sentences in three tenses (present, one  form of the past tense ) and future should help you to converse in more depth, learn more about the women you meet and may help you to avoid SOME mistakes.       
 
 
   

[Zon]

Chasing a girl in another country that doesn't speak English is not exactly a genius move to begin with, so other stupid decisions usually follow.

GREAT LINE - more than funny.  You are now my favorite member here:)

I am very happy for you that you can reflect and feel no regret.  It is good to hear from someone who is trying to be very introspective and speak without sensitivities, ego, or having other "sacred cows".  It is healthy for the rest of us who suffer from one form of blindness or another ...

[z_k_g]

Yes, I had spent about 6 weeks with her in Colombia before we got married.  Of course I knew her longer.  That's 15 days short of your minimum 60 days, ha ha ha.  I agree with you, it's not enough time especially with the language differences.
 
But in that time, I met and married a pretty nice girl that shared over 10 years of my life with.  Neither of us are perfect, she helped take care of my Mom when she was dying.  It didn't last forever, but it was pretty darned good while it lasted.  I'm not bitter, or angry with her.  You takes your chances.
 
Who would do that?  Well me, and most of the guys here.  How many guys that marry these girls spend more then 6 weeks actual face time together if we can get them to admit it anyway?  This whole process is a crap shoot from the beginning, and rushing things makes it even riskier.  Chasing a girl in another country that doesn't speak English is not exactly a genius move to begin with, so other stupid decisions usually follow.
 
Sometimes when you chase conservative catholic girls, they want to wait for sex til marriage.  There are some of those girls left in Colombia.  I didn't dump her for holding to her values.
 
The reason the half of the guys don't come back here after their divorces, is because we already feel like an idiot for making some of these stupid decisions. Also we don't really need our mistakes rubbed in our faces after we tell our stories, so be a little careful how you respond to some of us.  I'm thick skinned and can take it, but if we want all sorts of viewpoints and opinions on the board, careful with your word choices.  I think alot of these guys are often embarrassed, and didn't follow the advice given around here.
 
 
On the ground in these countries, the reality is "reason" often goes out the window when in the company of one of these beautiful girls.  You don't need a scopolamine to wake up on some later date and ask yourself "what did I just do, and what was I thinking" .  Beauty is a powerful drug.  .
 
Why do guys disappear from the board after they are married?  Well for many of us, this board is just used as a means to an end.  After we are married, then it's just life, so why spend so much time online when you could be enjoying your wife?  Hopefully your wife is better company then the guys around here.

JWR,

Amen, amen, amen!!!!  I love it!!!

Every word, every sentence is right on point.

I don't agree with every word of it, but I really respect your view point.  You are addressing a lot of the core issues that I try to hit on in my posts.

A key statement you make is that "This whole process is a crapshoot..." that is so so true.

Case in point....We had a situation with Bill Mcc a year ago.   He had been communicating with a pinay for many months and it was time to meet.

He was excited.  He posted telling us that she had gotten a tourist visa, he had seen it on cam and was 100% that it was real, no doubts.  (I had immediate doubts)

Initially everyone congratulated him (including myself) and most of the esteemed posters here started to give him planning and visiting pointers for the trip.  They gave him advice on where to shop, what foods to purchase and places to visit, it really turned into a circus in my opinion.

It was somewhat surreal for me and a few others because, as I said, I didn't think she had a tourist visa for one minute!!  I knew it was a scam.  I started throwing hints and giving suggestions that Bill might want to do a bit more due diligence.  (Little did anyone know he had already paid for everything and it was really too late to help him.) 

Well, to make long story short....

Bill, and some others got pissed at my hints, I was ignored and basically relegated to the outfield, no one wanted to hear ANYTHING the Zulu had to say about the matter.

All of my suspicions proved to be valid and the Bill finally (and bravely) admitted to the scam once he realized he had been duped.  (Oh yeah, and also he found out his SHE was a HE!  Yuck!)

Your post parallels Bill's experience.

1.  He didn't know her/him very long before he made a significant emotional and financial commitment with no physical relationship (but never married)
2.  She/Him was very beautiful
3.  His situation ended up very ugly and embarrassing, I am still surprised (but grateful) that he told the entire story in detail because although he opened himself up to sharp ridicule, but helped many newbies

Because this process is so unpredictable there is no "one way" to get it right.

When members seek advice I post my opinion just like any member, some agree with my posts others don't.

Amazingly, I sometimes get responses- to my responses  - that go further than a simple differing of opinion. 

I can understand disagreements, because its all opinions anyways, but these unsolicited rebuttals are meant to totally discredit my opinion and to snuff out my divergent posts with a "their way is the right way" attitude. 

I have even had posters suggest that I refrain posting solid relationship advice for establishing foreign relationships in the Latin section!  Amazing stuff!

Well...

Bill's situation graphically documents what happens when the "experts" don't have a clue.

Why?  Because this entire process IS a crapshoot! 

If you already haven't, then you should read about Bill's train wreck.  Not one of the "experts" rendered any meaningful criticisms, objections or observations prior to him spilling the beans. 

It was a sad day for P-L, we utterly failed Bill.  I mean that's what this peer group is all about, right?  We spend our time posting to help men wade through the significant hurdles inherent in seeking a quality foreign female for marriage.

That's my motivation anyways. 

I'm not being paid a dime and my time is valuable.  But, because of P-L, I was able to navigate and avoid the many pitfalls in this process and ultimately met a really nice pinay (I always give credit where its due).  I wanted to return that favor and pay it forward.

Did I take all of the advice given on P-L?  Absolutely not.  I think the most useful advice was the travel reports because they were less opinion and more on the ground up to date facts.

The relationship advice is hit or miss, I may use 5% to 10%, you got a lot of different viewpoints and most of that advice was somewhat useless. 

For example, some say get married on the first visit, others say wait 1 year or more.  Some say have only one pinay lined up and if she's a runner use your trip as a vacation, others say have a list of backups for your trip, just in case.  No one agrees.

My point is, everyone has an opinion about relationships and no one is right, no one is wrong.  What works for you may not work for me and my situation.  I basically read it all and pick out what makes sense for me and my relationship.

The thing is, and the problem is, we have members who consider ALL of their advice, expert advice. 

Why is this?

Well because they are experts on visas, travel, retirement, banking, previous marriages etc.  They may live in Asia and have dozens of visits under their belt.  If you need to know the EXACT process and time frames of getting a visa for your potential or new bride then they can and will assist.  They can even quote US or Philippine law related to pretty much any question you have and tell you the appropriate forms to fill out and how much it will cost.

Thats some hot shyt, that I honestly respect!!

We have some significant technical resources on P-L!!!

But all that TECHNICAL expertise does not make you a relationship expert!!

JWR, this entire process IS a crapshoot! 

We should post our opinions and respect each others right to post theirs because every relationship is so completely different you need as many voices as possible to help find the right solution for you and your sweetie! 

90% of those posts will be mundane banter, comprised basically of good reading but NO solid advice that you can use to help you in your situation.

The other 10% (P-L posters with some crazy left field opinion) may post a gold nugget that provides you with the exact solution to your situation and your relationship issue!!

That's been my personal experience on P-L!

Thank god for the guy in the outfield!

Zulu

[Ray]