Colombian law and a failed relationship

[vikingo]

You are married or are living with your colombiana under the same roof for more than two years right here in Colombia, which according to Colombian law amounts to the the same thing as marriage and your relationship is coming to an end, for whatever reason. During your relationship you have bought a house, furniture, appliances and maybe a car. Now your girlfriend or wife has the right of onehalf of everything, just like you were married in a community property state in the US.
Does it matter if your girlfriend stopped working when you guy's moved in together, or she didn't have dime to her name? I guess not.
I once heard a wise statement: Keep your bride in Colombia and your money out of Colombia!
Maybe you keep hearing from her, to sell your house or investments in the States, so you two can move up, into a better estrato, by a car, travel some, raise your lifestyle a little. Now if she bails or some day your eyes open wide that she is only concerned how much she can get out of this relationship and you've had enough of her, you will lose half of the money you previously transfered to Colombia too, or do you?
What happens if you have a child with her or if she brings children into the relationship, you have children as well back home and you pass away? Who get's what?
I have heard a will in Colombia is not recognized, as the law overrides them.
How can you protect the money you are bringing to Colombia from home during the relationship?
Sure, you can drag her to a Notaría and have her sign a "separación de bienes" Which would prove 100% that she is truly in love with you and couldn't care less about material things,
but how many colombianas are willing to do that? They will tell you if they spent the best years of their life with you und you get tired of her, she ends up with nothing.
Sure would love to hear your advise and comments.

[dennislevy]

are you talking about el notario (NOTARY) or la notaria (THE CIIVL REGISTRY) whIch is a part of town and city governments? 

[JimD]

 What you are referring to is an “unión libre” and yes what you say about it’s legality is true.  I’ll cut to the chase and say in Colombia he who has the money gets the better lawyer and regardless of “the laws” gets the better deal after the break up.  (¡ojo!) However returning to before the chase: a “separacion de bienes” typically happens when the relationship is over and with a good lawyer (the expensive one) you can assure that the bienes are separated to your liking. For a relationship that is just begining the term for pre-nuptials is “capitulaciones matrimoniales” and this can and should be drawn up by a lawyer  when you first start living together.  Now back to the chase. The continuity of an union libre can be broken if say you leave the country for a while (prior to the two years) and the clock would have to start over when you return. This of course is something you would want your (expensive) lawyer to finesse.  As to estates,  in Colombia your properties go to your children when you die, no ifs, ands or buts. You can make a “testimonio” (will) that leaves your  property to others ie a girl who treated you really well for the last quarter century of your life but no matter. Your children can claim it all and it is theirs. You asked for our thoughts and those are mine.
.

http://www.notinet.com.co/serverfiles/servicios/archivos/codigos/civil/libro4txxii.htm

[whitey]

I thought she would only be entitled to half of assets acquired during the marriage.

So for example, a guy uses his savings (from the US, prior to marriage) to purchase a home outright that they both live in.  Is she still entitled to half?

[Gato4Astrid]

The most simplest way is not to get married and not to live with her for 2 years or not.  Just end the relationships at 1 year 11 months 3 weeks and 6 days    ja ja ja

[JimD]

I thought she would only be entitled to half of assets acquired during the marriage.

So for example, a guy uses his savings (from the US, prior to marriage) to purchase a home outright that they both live in.  Is she still entitled to half?

Yes. If the purchase is made in Colombia it wouldn't matter where the money came from.

[vikingo]

Dennis, I am referring to a Notaría which as you stated is an important  government controlled agency here in Colombia, where most  contracts are drawn up and legalized I would say, and they are supervised by experienced lawyers who received special training and certifications in this field, I believe. A far cry from a notary in the United States
Jim, you obviously are very knowledgeable about these matters, but I believe a ‘union libre’ just means that the two of you are living together without being married and it has no legal implications. A Sociedad de Cónyuge though takes place automartically on the day after living in Union Libre for at least two years and on that particular day you can kiss half of your Colombian assets good bye and hope she will continue loving you the same as before. Its five years in Panamá by the way, to the disappointment of my ex caleña, who thought she could just add up the time with me from both countries, but neither country cooperates in that respect.
What Jim is saying then, a Colombian will is a worthless piece of paper, unless you can persuade your kids to accept the will and good luck with that one, so the poor wife doesn’t get kicked out in the street when you die.
Non of this makes any sense to me though, it seems unless you let your wife sign the title to the home solely, her future without you is uncertain. But you would also lose your home if she decides you two aren’t the best match.
Whitey I too thought like you once but I’m afraid Jim is right on that one, it doesn't matter where the money came from.
One can’t win for losing, you bring her home, you’d better had bought everything before she arrives, in your name only, the same applies in Colombia, don’t let her move in unless you paid for everything in full and have solid proof of that.
The romantic way of the two of you choosing your love nest can come back and bite you in the kiester.
It’s nice to be in seventh heaven and madly in love but it could be a terrible awakening
if things don’t work out as planned.

[Bob_S]

The most simplest way is not to get married and not to live with her for 2 years or not.  Just end the relationships at 1 year 11 months 3 weeks and 6 days    ja ja ja

Got a countdown clock app for that? 

[dennislevy]

Vikingo et al...
 
Respectfully, I think we re talking aout different things.
 
As far as I know.  a notary (NOTARIO) is an individual who pays a fee to and is licensed by the goverment to operate a business office. They usually have people working for them to look at paperwork, check cedulas, etc...before the notary signs and notarizes a document.
 
There are requrements to be a notary, and a hefty fee. But as a business it can be VERY profitable. People want all kinds of things to be notarized and one of them can be a union libre, which as we KNOW, can convert into a common law marriage after two years.  A notary (NOTARIO) DOES NOT PERFORM WEDDINGS.
 
But LA NOTARIA) is a division of the municpal government in a pueblo or city in Colombia.  It has any number of functions and ONE of the functions of the NOTARIA is to perform CIVIL WEDDINGS.  An officlal of the notaria performs the ceremony and it immediately has the force of a marriage.  I ve been to two of those.         

[maritime04]

anyone ever had a civil divorce where one party does not intend to screw the other?

[Zon]

Just to be specific ...

Jim, you obviously are very knowledgeable about these matters, but I believe a ‘union libre’ just means that the two of you are living together without being married and it has no legal implications. A Sociedad de Cónyuge though takes place automartically on the day after living in Union Libre for at least two years and on that particular day you can kiss half of your Colombian assets good bye and hope she will continue loving you the same as before. Its five years in Panamá by the way, to the disappointment of my ex caleña, who thought she could just add up the time with me from both countries, but neither country cooperates in that respect.
What Jim is saying then, a Colombian will is a worthless piece of paper, unless you can persuade your kids to accept the will and good luck with that one, so the poor wife doesn’t get kicked out in the street when you die.
Non of this makes any sense to me though, it seems unless you let your wife sign the title to the home solely, her future without you is uncertain. But you would also lose your home if she decides you two aren’t the best match.
Whitey I too thought like you once but I’m afraid Jim is right on that one, it doesn't matter where the money came from.
One can’t win for losing, you bring her home, you’d better had bought everything before she arrives, in your name only, the same applies in Colombia, don’t let her move in unless you paid for everything in full and have solid proof of that.
The romantic way of the two of you choosing your love nest can come back and bite you in the kiester.
It’s nice to be in seventh heaven and madly in love but it could be a terrible awakening
if things don’t work out as planned.

Please clarify.   I could imagine myself getting a girlfriend and - POOF - all of a sudden she is living in my place (if I rent no biggy.  But, what if I decided to buy - probably through a off-shore corporation?)    I go back to the USA 3 or 4 months a year.   And let's assume that two years click bye without me realizing it ... does that make me "married" in Colombia.   Thus whatever assets I would have aquired are to be spilt in half? 

[JimD]

... but I believe a ‘union libre’ just means that the two of you are living together without being married and it has no legal implications. A Sociedad de Cónyuge though takes place automartically on the day after living in Union Libre for at least two years

That's correct. Once you've completed two years of living to gether as an union libre the relationship becomes a sociadad de conyuge which has the same legal stutus as marriage. But I wish to reiterate the point that the clock can be stopped before that two years are up and it doesn't mean you have to end the relationship and kick her to the curb. Just take a wee vacation and when you come back the clock starts at zero. But one must talk with a lawyer to be sure one does it right and indeed stops the clock.
.
As to notarías my understanding is that the position is a political gift (you have to have pelanca) and is indeed extremely lucrative. The guy sits behind a big desk in an office somewhat removed while a slew of underlings faces the hoards then brings the papers back to him to sign. Every time I see those guys they always look real relaxed and happy.

[vikingo]

 'Please clarify. I could imagine myself getting a girlfriend and - POOF - all of a sudden she is living in my place (if I rent no biggy.  But, what if I decided to buy - probably through a off-shore corporation?)    I go back to the USA 3 or 4 months a year.   And let's assume that two years click bye without me realizing it ... does that make me "married" in Colombia.   Thus whatever assets I would have aquired are to be spilt in half?' 

Zon, there is a certain time span to interrupt and nulify a Sociedad de Conjuge and I believe it's 6 months, but am not sure, it requires some research. In my opinion it would have to be sufficient time for the couple is separated to consider abandonment of the relationship. It may even have an implication if the woman can demonstrate frequent love letters from you during your absence.
Lawyers have unlimited imagination and can paint a scenario that has the judge in tears, LOL.
I agree, in Colombia an expensive and imaginative lawyer can convince the Court that the crows flying above are white, but it all depends on the mood of the judge and if his wife was happy with him the night before. I think, it is best one does his homework consulting a lawyer before one buys anything of value during or after a two year relationship, I'm still not clear on that. What ever you buy before she moves in would have to be paid in full because if you carry payments into the relationship the scenario changes again in her favor. Normally what ever you buy while living with her or after two years, again, not sure about the law, no matter where the money came from, is half hers. A very good layer may be able to topple the law, but I think only by proving extreme circumstances like her having been unfaithful. I wouldn't leave it up to chance though, that a good layer turns the law around in your favor, no matter how much you pay him. He may promise you the moon to get you as a client and your hard earned money and after he'll say, sorry it didn't work out.

[JimD]

I agree, in Colombia an expensive and imaginative lawyer can convince the Court that the crows flying above are white,

First he'd have to convince him there are crows in Colombia...which there ain't...ha ha...

[vikingo]

Good observation, Jim, crows never made it as far as South America, to the Hawaiian Islands and Mexico, yes.
But now I have an other concern; in case it became clear after a break-up that she owns half the house and half of everything else, you bought while living with her. Can she force the sale of the home if you have no resources to buy her out and kick you out in the street so to speak?
Or should you insist to get her to sign a 'capitulación' in the nearest Notaría before you let her move in. Wouldn't that be proof that she really loves you with all her heart. What's a man to do?
Many of us had a bad experience with divorce lawers in the States, are we really that much better off in Colombia?
I always look at any relationship as a potential risk and imagine the worst thing that can happen to me some day in the future. What about you?

[JimD]

Good observation, Jim, crows never made it as far as South America, to the Hawaiian Islands and Mexico, yes.
But now I have an other concern; in case it became clear after a break-up that she owns half the house and half of everything else, you bought while living with her. Can she force the sale of the home if you have no resources to buy her out and kick you out in the street so to speak?
Or should you insist to get her to sign a 'capitulación' in the nearest Notaría before you let her move in. Wouldn't that be proof that she really loves you with all her heart. What's a man to do?
Many of us had a bad experience with divorce lawers in the States, are we really that much better off in Colombia?
I always look at any relationship as a potential risk and imagine the worst thing that can happen to me some day in the future. What about you?

Crows can be found as far south as Nicaragua and no I don't dwell on relationship worst case scenerios as much as I probobly should. As to the question about her getting half yes it's possible especially if she is from the upper clases and has the powers that that would bestow. Same holds true for forcing the sale of a property but a good lawyer (one who comes recomended by people you know) should be able to forestall all of that and browbeat her into a position acceptable to you. I think a capitulations agreement is signed at the beginning of the marriage or sociadad conyugal so probobly too late for that.

[Alabamaboy!]

I had been thinking of this very situation if I should use my "retirement" money to buy a home in Colombia some day. For right now after being married a very short time, it does not make sense because immediately my retirement money would be 1/2 hers. If I keep the money in a separate account in the US...even though I live in a community property state, she is not entitled to any of it.

Same thing goes if I should sell my house which is paid off in the States and use that money to buy a place in Colombia. Right now the house is 100% in my name, but as soon as I would use that money to buy a place in Colombia  it would be 1/2 hers.

I have no problem with splitting everything 50/50 that we accumulate since the time of marriage, but it makes no sense, and is not fair to say that 1/2 of what I accumulated during the last 25 years should be hers.

As time goes on, and if things go well, I plan on putting her name on the house, but not for a couple years.

Any woman who does not agree to a situation like that is an interesada in my eyes and this conversation should come up before you marry and you should pay attention to the reaction.

I am kind of glad that I had a good solid 5-6 years between my ex wife and my new wife to accumulate some savings that is "untouchable". It takes the edge off the financial gamble that goes along with a new marriage (whether it be with a Colombiana or gringa).

[vikingo]

I know exactly what you mean, Alabama, I am in the same boat as you. I have a place in Panamá I have been planning on selling and moving up in Colombia, but the moment I buy in Colombia, half of it is hers and while I would like her to have it after I'm gone, I value my independence and don't want a woman telling me when and if I can sell the home or car, to get something different, because you are pretty well at her mercy and that of her family too, because they will advise her what's best for her.
There are only two means that I know of, having her sign a 'capitulación' at the notaría before you transfer your money, which will go over like a lead balloon or terminate the 'sociedad de cónyuge' and get a 'separación de bienes' or divorce her if you are married, buy the home and then have her move back in after a while, which she may or may not want to do. None of this will be a pleasant experience, not for you nor for her. An other way would be to invite a close relative to Colombia and have him buy the house for you and tell her it's an investment of that particular family member and you get to take care of it, which is being dishonest, but if things don't work out, she will want her half or become your worst enemy, because she won't have an other woman living in 'her house' and her family won't allow it anyway should she be inclined to just walk away from it.
There has to be an easier way. I think I will make plans to contact an attorney.
My bride has a good argument though, she said if I die and her name isn't on the title my kids will get the house according to Colombian law and kick her out in the street, because a will leaving the house to her is not recognized in Colombia.
The part that I still don't understand is when you die, according to Colombian law she will get her half and your kids will get your half and I doubt their is much love lost between our kids and our colombiana and she most likely get's kicked out anyway unless she can buy them out.
If you don't have kids, she should get all, I think.
Now if you have children with her the scenario again changes, in her favor, I suppose.
 

[JimD]

 Cololmbins with money and property often set up a socidad or partnership wth a trusted family member, brother or something in which the wife is given a small percentage like ten percent. This makes her feel like she has something while the husband maintains control of the rest in case of separation/divorce.   
　

[vikingo]

"Colombians with money and property often set up a sociedad or partnership wth a trusted family member, brother or something in which the wife is given a small percentage like ten percent. This makes her feel like she has something while the husband maintains control of the rest in case of separation/divorce."
Bingo, Jim, sounds like the best solution. Giving her a lesser percentage without losing control, similar to an ideal business partnership and avoiding the proverbial slap in the face of a 'capitulación' in which she surrenders everything and ends up walking away with nothing.
I would suggest using the abogado in a notaría though to set it up who can't pull a fast one and create a contract knowing full well the law would not accept it just to get his hands on some money.
That leaves the question open how one can make sure she will not get kicked into the street once one passes on, without giving her full controll of the home.
Not having controll over the assets would also be a deterrent for her to not walk away when you are old and fragile, when you need someone at your side in the worst way.
I might come off as being super cautious, but I have been burned before when my ex-wife in the States had control over a home in which I had invested every dime I ever earned and she managed with the help of her attorney who promosed her that she would end up with it all, to prevent the sale of the home for more than two years after the divorce and left me high and dry.

[JimD]

I really think yuo need to find a good lawyer to talk to. Picking a lawyer out of the phone book is out of the question of course but surely you've had business dealing up threr with some one who has used a lawyer they can recomend to you so you can say so and so reccomended you to me. That really works best in Colombia. Better not to go in cold. Anyway as to the sociadad that's something you can ammend at any time so as time and your confidence in her progress you can give her a bigger part. Rich colombianos are very good at both covering their asses and manipulating women. Might be the way to go. By the way, this isn't second hand, a lawyer told me.

[vikingo]

You have given good advise 'from the inside', Jim, thank you!
Colombianos are no morons, few women walk all over them, don't anybody kid yourself.