Love Continues in Barranquilla

[jvoorhees]

Thanks all for the great advice.  It is wonderful to have a wide range of feedback.  It allows me to really thinking deeply about what to do next.  And decide and walk my own path.
 
As far as sex goes, I did not mention to her my frustrations with lack of sex.  Mainly because I did not want to her to think that I was upset.  And did not want her to think that all I care about is sex.
 
That being said, after we had our little escipade in the hot tub, we did talk briefly about sex.  She started the conversation saying that "she enjoyed the hot tub.  But that is was too soon for sex because we didn't know each other yet.  And besides, we didn't have any protection with us."
 
She seemed sincere.  I believe that she wanted it, but was scared to move too fast.  But then again, between culture and language I could be reading it wrong.
 
So veterans, do you think her caution to have sex is due to her being young.  And due to her taking this relationship seriously and no wanting to ruin it by rushing? 
 
Or is she merely scared of me being a sex tourist?  And holding out to ensure that my intensions are honorable and serious? 
 
Or does she just have no interest and is just using me to go to nice restaurants and Spas when I am in town?

[Zon]

So veterans, do you think her caution to have sex is due to her being young.  And due to her taking this relationship seriously and no wanting to ruin it by rushing?

No.  I think she is not that into you.

Or is she merely scared of me being a sex tourist?

Why do you presume that she would be SCARED of a sex tourist?

And holding out to ensure that my intensions are honorable and serious?

I think you are likely talking about your values and perspective rather than hers.

Or does she just have no interest and is just using me to go to nice restaurants and Spas when I am in town?

Why do you think having a guy that pays for English class and visits 3 or 4 times is "uninteresting"?  She probably think it is very interesting.

But, your constant use of the term "fear" and "scared" worries me for you.  You are walking on egg shells, and you really have not even started yet.  With regard to sex, you can pretty much throw your Victorian values in the garbage.   That is not to say, be disrespectful!  Just understand that you are dealing in a world where the rules are set at a VERY early age and women fully understand that certain expectations are to be satisfied - or there will be hell to pay. 

UNLESS, you are dealing with a women from a different (upper) class - there are more superficial and formal manners.  I do not get the impression you are dealing with that.    Is this girl within your normal age and league? You seem a little shell shocked to me

[z_k_g]

Jvoorhees,

Good follow up post.

I say cut bait. (just my opinion)

Also, you place too much emphasis on sex.

I am 44 and traveled all the way to asia to spend 3 weeks with my sweetie.  We had fun, but we didn't have sex.  I made sure that I was getting everything out of the relationship that I wanted, and I told her that she should be looking for the same.

We spent time on relationship building and I think we were successful, time will tell.  But she did show me respect and even tho I had to spend my funds (she was a student on a weekly budget from her mother) she never treated me like an ATM.

You can have sex with anyone, even someone you don't know, just pay them or sometimes all you have to do is smile or show them a good time and make them laugh, the panties come off!!

Sex is easy.  Relationships are hard.

From your tone I gather that if you had been sexual with her then everything would be ok (in your mind) and your comfort level would have been a lot higher.

Well, you are focusing on the wrong goals and headed for, at the least, a lot of disappointment. 

Based on what you related in your post, I think the intimacy level was more than sufficient, and eventually you will be boning her till you pass out. 

But then what?

Like I said, you can have sex with anyone, that's not a measure of love or anything else for that matter.  She can have absolutely no feelings for you and screw you, remember that.

You need to focus on the relationship.

Success or failure will depend on your understanding of that goal, relationship building. 

You will be right back at square one trying to uncover her true self and then establishing a strong interpersonal bond with her and exploring if you can have a meaningful relationship that will lead to marriage.

If you really want to build that type of bond with her then express to her your desires, requirements, hopes and issues. 

Explain your feeling like an ATM machine and get her reaction to that concern.

Based on  your detailed post, I just don't get the impression that she is that into you or into the relationship. 

Of course I was not there and any and all final decisions will be yours.

Good luck!

Zulu

[jvoorhees]

No.  I think she is not that into you.

Why do you presume that she would be SCARED of a sex tourist?

I think you are likely talking about your values and perspective rather than hers.

Why do you think having a guy that pays for English class and visits 3 or 4 times is "uninteresting"?  She probably think it is very interesting.

But, your constant use of the term "fear" and "scared" worries me for you.  You are walking on egg shells, and you really have not even started yet.  With regard to sex, you can pretty much throw your Victorian values in the garbage.   That is not to say, be disrespectful!  Just understand that you are dealing in a world where the rules are set at a VERY early age and women fully understand that certain expectations are satisfied - or there is often hell to pay. 

UNLESS, you are dealing with a women from a different (upper) class - there are more superficial maand formal manners.  I do not get the impression you are dealing with that.    Is this girl within your normal age and league? You seem a little shell shocked to me

Some good points Zon.  Maybe she is not that into me.  But you haven't been there when we are kissing.
 
The passion in her kissing has definitely there.  I can feel it build and build in excitement.  And then I can feel her retreat as she is becoming too into it.
 
But maybe you are right.  Maybe she only makes out with me to keep me around and take her to dinner.  But if that was the case, then why not have sex?  Cause wouldn't I sure buy more things if I was fully satisfied?
 
I think you can see my confusion.  I have spun this around in my head a 1000 times.  Think about it from every angle trying to make sense of it.  In the end, maybe that is my real problem.  Overthinking things.
 
Yes.  I am very nervous when it comes to women.  My trip to Colombia was a huge step for me.  I have been severely hurt by my ex-wife and others in the past.  I have no problem with women.  If I am being a player and caring only for sex, this would be an easy game.  I'd have moved on from her by know and laid several women in Colombia.
 
The hard part is letting a woman into my heart.  The fear is opening up completely again and then being stabbed in the heart again.
 
I think you can only feel the deepest love and connection with a woman by truly opening up your heart completely.  But that leaves you at a big risk.  Cause you can't feel true pain without having first let someone into your heart.

[dennislevy]

jvorhees

Youve spun it aorund in your mind  a thousand times, but I am not sure if you ve thought about it from her possible POV

She has her rights as a woman, she has her own sexuality, she has her own history.

She said two things to you.....you didnt have condoms. Gooooooood point.

 but even more importantly, you didnt know each other well enough. Under that...is that she doesn t trust you enough. YET to give herself to you. Think about her background....

The girl is young and poor, she comes from a dysfunctinal family,  she is more or less estranged from her mother,, and sees her mom as a cheater. She s  seen guys come and go in her mothers life. So from her point of view, will you also come and go in her life?  ..   

What you know about her is that she can be passionate, but you don t know what her hstory with men is (thats not that easy to discover) and you dont know if and  what her expectations of you are. 

As always, very few men stop to consider the POV of the girl or place it within the context of the culture.
But, have you discussed the fiancee visa process or marriage with her? I mean discuss, not asked her. to marry you?  Let me ask you

Would you be wllling to gve her a ring and be engaged before sex? I am not saying its a good idea or or a bad idea, I m simply asking would you consider it as an option?

Zon s point about costeñas beign sexual creatures is a generalizati0on.  Every woman has her own sexuality, and while the coast is a sexual climate , it doesnt mean that every costeña wants to hit the sheets as fast as possible.

 
SHE IS  in an agency and now here si this American  guy who sees her for part of 9 days...and then comes back for 5 days. 

Cindarella isnt going to think very much about the effort  YOU made to come to BQ. You come from a place that she may see only on TV, it probably doesnt mean anything significant  to her. you are  in Baranquilla or youre not....it as simple as that.

What she may think is HE sincere enough to come back for me?

Do you know how long she has been in the agency. Do you know if she had peronal citas (dayes)  any other male clients before you? 

What will probably mean more is if the two you can hold it together until December, and you come back. You should  have at LEAST  learned more about her and her expectations.   And you have to communicate yours, as well, if you can decide what they are. 

If you can get answers from  her, and satisfy her, then its reasoanble to expect that sexual intimacy will happen on the next trip. If oit doesnt happen,s he has her reasons and it s time to move on.

But let me advise you to take more time then 5 days. but have a black up plan in place....and we can give you advice on how to do that.   

Keep writing posts,they are a pleasure to read.

Dennis



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[Micky]

JV -
 

You are not the first nor will you be the last to go through these thoughts and emotions.  FIRST,  do what you will,  it is your life,  nobody Else's.  That being said -
Sorry to be point blank,  but -  a Latina that is INTO YOU would have thrown you and blown you.  She likes you enough for you to bank her,  but NOT to have intimate relations?  The competition here is SO VERY FIERCE,  a women will do ALL to make sure you do look no further.  No condoms?,  she would have called the pharmacia and had them delivered,  IF she REALLY wanted to seal the deal.  Why should she?  You are acting like a high school boy that just got a sniff of the promised land.  I am not saying any of this without thought or understanding,  it IS HARD.  You really need to step up and do what NEEDS to be done IF you want to continue your search for a Latina.  YOU are spending the money,  YOU are working the OT,  YOU are the one looking and doing the work,  take care of YOUR NEEDS.  I do apologize for being harsh,  but there are many opinions here and what is the absolute truth?  I DON"T know,  but I do know if it were me,  I would not have let it get this far.  Maybe true,  maybe not,  all the things that she is telling you sounds like she talks more shet than a Chinese radio.  She is setting the table for HERSELF and from what you say,  I do not see her respect for you.  Sorry.
Maybe I am wrong.

 
Micky

[Jeff S]

I've been reading this thread with some interest and I see a lot of differing opinions. The one thing that I haven't seen expressed is that women don't think and act like men do. She is doing precisely what just about every woman in the world would do if she is being followed around like a puppy-dog kind of guy trying his best to please her - testing you and seeing what she can get away with. The more agreeable you are to her behavior and keep trying to please her whatever she does, the less attracted she'll feel for you. I've read a thousand times on this board that you have to man-up around Latinas - well, you have to man up around any women and decide how things are going to be. No don't force yourself on her, but you have to take the power reins and establish what you are and aren't going to put up with. That, not agreeing to all of her wishes, is what will turn her on to you. Just my two cents worth.

[Ray]

 
 
 

[JWR]

JV,
So let me get this straight.  You have children from a previous marriage you are responsible for, you are working overtime, and are struggling financially to afford this relationship.  And you are laying in a spa getting hot rocks and massage because your GF wanted to get a spa treatment?
 
And you don't see anything wrong with this picture?
 
It is our God given right to do stupid sh*t.
 
 

[Chris F]

I recently returned from my second trip in Colombia.  After leaving Colombia, I wanted to return as soon as possible to see my novia again.  It tooks 5 weeks, but I was able to get more days with my love.  I hope everyone who followed my first post will enjoy the ups and downs of this post.  I hope newbies will learn from my mistakes, learn from my successes, and most of all become inspired to take a trip down themselves.

Pre-trip
I returned home to the States from my first trip to find a phone message from my new novia waiting for me.  She talked fast and it took me a whole day of listening to it over and over to understand what she was saying.  I was only able to understand and translate about 60% of it.  It seemed like it was good, but I wasn't sure.  This started a 5 week roller coaster of emotions.

I booked my return trip within two days.  I decided to stay at Jamie's agency again because I was so happy with the service.  And nothing made me happier than the sound of excitement in her voice when I told her that I was returning in a few weeks to hold her in my arms again.

The first couple days we exchanged a few emails.  But I quickly discovered that I made one huge mistake.  I was so focused while in Colombia on just enjoying my time with her and trying to get to know her that I didn't clarify any communication specifics while we were apart.  I had no idea how frequent she wanted to communicate or by what methods. So I followed her lead so that I didn't seem either uninterested or too eager.  But I quickly realized that I was not getting the communication from her that I needed. 

Some days I would get 2 or 3 emails from her.  Then I would go 5 days without hearing a word.  Furthmore, I would write long emails with 4 or 5 paragraphs and usually get a 3 or 4 sentence reply.  I would ask her several questions about different things in my emails and usually would only get a response to one or two of them.  This started the fear growing in the back of my mind that she really didn't have interest in me.  All the while, I had friends and family whispering in my ear about Colombian women using American men for money or green cards.  It was really hard not having much support. 

I worked very hard to stay positive in my emails and to everyone I spoke to, but inside I was a mess.  I had only spent 9 days with her but I had already fallen in love.  And I had watched quietly several important qualities for a good wife.  I had already invested so much time, money, and emotions.  So I continued despite my fears.  And did not let on to anyone that I had them.

After several days of not getting any communication from her, I broke down and finally created a facebook page.  I knew that she had one and thought maybe it would be easier to communicate through that then email.  It was a huge mistake.  I had no friends and one picture of her and I together.  After a few days, she accepted me as a friend.  I was also shocked that I was instantly getting friend requests by people I knew.  I had told no one that I created an account.  And did not plan on telling anyone.  But Facebook informed them and they friended me as well.  Within a day I had 10 friends.  My novia noticed this and sent me a very concerned private message basically stating that "She was not stupid and can tell my facebook account was new.  What is going on?"

I was terrified.  I had pissed her off and I didn't know how or why.  So I replied with the truth that I was new to facebook, didn't know how to use it, and asked her to bear with me as I learn it.  I didn't not get a response from her for another 5 days.  It ate me up inside.  I was convinced the relationship was over before it had a chance to start.  I checked my email every 10 minutes, hoping get a reply.  I sent her 1 email every two days just saying sweet things and not mentioning facebook treating it as if it was resolved.  I finally got a nice response back on facebook and replies to my emails.  It seems she had accepted my response and moved on.  I was so relieved.

The days went on and we pass more emails back and forth.  I stayed away from facebook because frankly I was now scared of it and didn't want to stir up any more issues.  But I would look at her account every one and a while to see photos of her cause I missed her so much.  After a few weeks, I noticed something.  There were no photos or mention of me anywhere on her page.  I saw several photos of her that were taken on outings with me.  But none with me in it.  This got me worrying again that she had no interest in me.

Then, I got a email from her that she had been mugged.  I had a hard time translating it but it sounded like her rent money was stolen and she was roughed up a little.  I felt really bad.  I instantly sent a couple emails back asking if she was alright and assuring her of my feelings for her.  She replied saying she was alright, just hungry.  I was happy that she did not directly ask me for money.  But there was a knot in my gut thinking that maybe she was subtly asking for money hoping that I would offer it up.  I did not.  I kept my emails talking about her safety.  That I worried about her.  And that I cared about her.

I then stopped hearing from her.  I would email her once every other day.  I stayed romantic and positive in my emails, but my insides were a mess.  In the last two weeks before I returned to Colombia, I recieved 2 emails.  Both of which were nice, but very short with about 2 sentences.

As I prepared to leave for Colombia again, I was filled with anxiety.  The big fear that I had was that she did not have interest in me.  I think this started on my first trip with the lack of physical intimacy.  We made out several times on my first trip, but I always got the impression that she did not want to go beyond kissing.  So I always kept my hands in neutral locations like her back or side.  After 9 days with her and no sex, I was really worried.  Then my fears and home and pushed and pulled with facebook, lack of emails, etc.  But I got on the plane again anyway.  I felt relief in that if she didn't like me anymore, at least I'd know it soon.

Day 1
I took the same flight back to Colombia and arrived shortly before dinner time.  I was so happy to see my previous translator pick me up at the airport.  My novia was not there as she had to work.  I did know this from her last email so I wasn't too worried.  I was able to have a good conversation with my translator about the last month and my fears.
 
One of the things I had noticed while back home was that her online profile on the agency remained on the site until just a day or two before I left.  My translator told me the story about a few days before she had to call my novie because another man had expressed interest in her.  My novia's response was "that is ridiculous.  I have my novio, take down my profile".  Apparently, it is common for girls to assume their profile is removed when they start dating someone.  And forget to ask for it to be taken down.  My heart melted in hearing her response.  I felt a lot better and could wait to see her.

She was going to come over in 4 hour after work, but that plan changed before I got to the agency.  She decided to sneak out on a break to see me for minutes.I was in my room unpacking when she arrived.  I opened my door and she was standing before me.  It was simply heaven to see her again.  She was so amazingly beautiful.  And then she called out at the top of her lungs "Mi Amor" and ran into my arms, almost knocking me down.  It was one of the greatest moments of my life.  I haven't felt so loved in many years.  We started kissing intensely.  The passion in her kissing and touch felt deeper and stronger than before.  From what my translator said, everyone in the house could feel it.

We had just a few minutes together before she had to go back to work.  She told me the plan for my trip.  We were going to Santa Marta in the morning to see her cousin and two younger sisters.  We would spend the night there.  And come back the next day.  The day after, we would go to a Spa together.  She then left for work.

When she was done with work, we went to dinner.  It was so nice to be with her again.  We had a pleasant conversation and a great restaurant.  And got to meet several of her friends working there.  When we came back, my translator left and I took her into my room to give her a present.  I gave her a heart shaped locket with a photo of her and I each as children in it.  She very happy and touched deeply.  We said sweet things for a while then begant to kiss.  As we kissed, I kept feeling the passion build within her like a fire with a wind blowing on it.  As I breathed deeper and held her closer, she did the same.  She took my hand and placed it on her chest below her neck and above her strapless shirt.  Between the plans to spend the night together tomorrow, the passion in her kissing, and her placing my hand there, I decided to take things to the next level.

I slowly moved my hands down onto her chest.  She seemed happy for a moment, but then she moved my hand away.  She said it was too soon.  We chatted for a while more, then she said she needed to go home.

That first night was very hard.  I got about 2 hours of sleep filled with worry.  I was so confused how she could seem to be so happy with me.  And her kisses filled with so much passion.  Yet she did not want to go beyond kissing with me.  Did not want to have sex with me.  And did not want to spend the night with me when we will be spending the night together the next day.  I felt utterly rejected.  I was immensely hurt.  I came to the realization that she liked me, but was not ready for this relationship.

Day 2
The next day, my translator and I left the agency early to pick up my novia and drive to Santa Marta as planned.  I had reserved a cab for the whole day so that we could get there and not have to worry about flagging a cab all day.  I was upset, and on edge.  I was still madly in love with my novia, but convinced that our relationship had two more days in its life.  The drive to Santa Marta took a long time.  It was probably a little more than an hour, but seem longer.  I discovered that you might need your Passport if you leave the city.  The police randomly stop cars.  Luckily, we didn't get stopped.

The drive we mostly pleasant.  I held my novia close and tried to enjoy every moment.  We had some deep conversations.  Mostly her asking about my ex-wife and my relationship with her.

When we arrived in Santa Marta, we went to a hotel for lunch and swimming with her cousin and sisters.  It was fun hanging out with them and chatting.  They had fun using my camera to take pictures of each other.  We had a few group photos with all of us.  And my novia tried to teach me to dance a little to some music we had playing.  The absolute best we going swimming again with my novia.  The pool was about 4 1/2 feet deep.  Since my novia didn't want to get her hair wet, I took her on my back piggy-back style.  And then just walked around the pool and talked with her.  It was totally amazing.

I soon discovered the unspoken expectations of the gringo boyfriend.  Not only was my paying for my novia and my translator, but also her sisters, her cousin, her cousins boyfriend who showed up later, and the cab driver.  I expected it so I wasn't surprised.  But was still amazed at how quickly that bill adds up.

We spent the rest of the evening at her cousins apartment.  I was tired from lack of sleep and crabby.  My novia suggested I take a nap.  Hoping she wanted to lay with me, I agreed.  Only to find myself alone.  I slept for a few hours.  They cooked dinner at home with me giving them a few bucks for groceries.  That night we went out dancing with her cousin.  The place we went to was small and we were the only ones there, which was perfect for me.  But the music was a little loud and too "cluby" for my taste.  I spent much of the night dancing with my novia.  She is a fantastic dancer and I have no idea what I am doing.  But it was a lot of fun.  And I think she really was happy that I was on the dance floor with her, despite my lack of experience or skill.  Even the bartender was laughing at me.

As we drove home I had no idea what to expect that night.  I was drunk and everyone was laughing at how cheap a drunk I was.  When we got back, I discovered that my novia and I were sleeping together in one room.  She marched me into the room and shut the door.  She took off my shirt.  And then took off my pants.  But then she took my swimsuit and put it on me over my underwear.  She sent a very clear signal that no sex was happening that night.  She then climbed into bed wearing only a t-shirt and underwear.  We did not make and out just went to sleep.  And we slept with the door to the room open.

This confused me further.  I could not understand why she would go out of her way to sleep next to me, but not even fool around a little.  It crushed me.  If it wasn't for the alcohol, I probably wouldn't have slept at all.

Day 3
I awoke is a flurry of emotions.  I felt so hurt and rejected.  Yet it was so wonderful laying next to her.  And she was so beautiful with the morning sunlight shining on her face.  We shut the door when the sun rose and spend another hour or two just holding each other.  It was so tender and wonderful.  But at the same time so confusing and frustrating.

We aunt we there and made arepas for everyone.  We louged around that morning.  It was her cousin's boyfriend's birthday.  So we walked to the shops to pick up some decorations.  I received many eyes and comments walking down the street with my novia and her sisters and cousins.  One guy even said something like "look, they are all beautiful, even the man."  I got a good laugh out of that.

At the store, they bought some decorations while I just held hands with my novia, occassionally giving each other sweet kisses.  I was happy that people hadn't asked me to buy the stuff.  But as we all got hot and thirsty, they looked at me.  They ask me to buy them all a drink, so I did.  They I was asked to buy the cake for the party, so I did.  But I was getting crabby about it and starting to feel like an atm machine.

By the time we got back, the few hours of sleep I had that night too were catching up with me.  Again my novia suggested I nap.  Again, I hoped she was planning on joining me, but I was wrong.  So I slept a few hours.  When I got up, everyone was decorating for the party.  We finished just in time for when he was to arrive, but he didn't show.  So we decided to play the board game Clue which I had brought.  It was very difficult to explain the rules for them.  And when I tried correcting a misunderstanding when we started they accused me a being a cheater.  We played with my novia and her sisters.  My novia wasn't so interested and was more interested in laying on me and snuggling and kissing me.  Her sisters were very obviously and poorly sneak a look at my cards or sheet.  The game was a lot of fun.  For me, the fun came in watching her two sisters try to be sneaky in cheating.  I am not sure if they ever fully understood the game, but we all enjoyed it.

Time marched on and her cousin's boyfriend never came.  We finally ate the cake ourselves and then we left to take the bus back to Barranquilla.  The bus ride back was magical.  My novia was tired and spent most of the time sleeping my my lap or while I held her.  The rest of the time we kissed and said sweet things to each other.  My stomach was still swirling with fear.  After the night together, I was really looking forward to her sleeping with me at the agency.

When we got to Barranquilla, she told me that she was tired and needed to go home.  So I went back to the agency alone.  My stomach my aching the whole cab ride home.  My novia had a work meeting until noon the next day.  So I gave my translator the morning off as a thank you to being so good and staying in Santa Marta with us.  I told her to arrive a little before my novia.

That night, I had a hard time falling asleep.  I awoke in the middle of the night with a terrible pain in my stomach.  I instantly knew it wasn't my nerves.  I spent the rest of the night on the toilet with exposive bowels.  I am not sure how I caught it.  I suspect maybe I got a little water in my mouth by accident in the shower.

Day 4
I finally got and going the next day.  My stomach was feeling better.  I must have had better dreams but I was feeling less anxious about my novia.  Maybe I was just focuses on the stomach bug I caught.  I got showered and ready.  I wasn't sure what time either would be there.  So I sat around waiting.  As time went on, I got hungry and thirsty.  But I hadn't been to the grocery store and had nothing to drink or eat.  By the late morning, I was feeling so bad, I laid down.  After a 20 minutes or so, I was surprised when my novia arrived.  It was wonderful to see her again.  She always brings smile to my face and makes me feel so wonderful.

I told them that my stomach hurt and I was starving and thristy.  My novia quickly gave me some crackers she had in my purse and got me some water.  I started to feel a lot better.

At this point in the trip, I had spent a lot more money that I had anticipated.  I had 40,000 pesos left.  Not even enough to get back to the airport.  So we first walked to an atm nearby.  I tried using it, but it kept giving me a strange error.

We then went to the Spa my novia had planned to take me to.  I had never been to a spa before, so I didn't know what to expect.  We got a couples massage package.  They walked us to the back to a beautiful room with two massage table, a jacuzzi, and rose pedals everywhere.  They motioned for us to undress together, but my novia clarified and went in by herself.  She came out wear a very small disposable bikini.  I then went in and changed down to a disposable underwear/shorts they gave me.  We each laid on the massage tables.  And two ladies gave us the full massage treatment with oil, scrub with rocks, and placed hot rocks on us while we rested.  My novia and I held hand when we could.  And the whole time I kept my eyes fixed on her eyes.  Her eyes are so beautiful, I could get lost in them for hours.

When we were done, they helped us to the jacuzzi where we each had an ice cream treat and a glass of champaign.  We ate our food with the occassional spoonful to the other.  When we were done, we laid down in the water facing each other.  I placed my legs around her and she placed hers over mine.  We sat up embraced.  We held each other, kissing, and rubbing each others backs.  My this time I was convinced that she was not interested in going any further.  So I worked hard to keep my hands in neutral locations.  I kept my hands abover her waistline and on her back.  And I kept our hips far enough apart so that she could not feel how excited I was.

We sat for a while, then laid down again.  Our legs stayed intertwined.  I rubbed her legs on her knees, alternating on the inside and outside.  As I moved on the inside, I felt her legs spread a little wider each time.  But I continued to not make moves.  We sat up and held each other again.  My novia then moved her hips in closer to mine so that we could feel each other through our clothes.  A rush of heat burst through my body and I didn't know what to think.  Was it an accident?  Or did she deliberately make her move on me?

Before I could figure it out, she gave me her answer.  She was very passionately kissing and rubbing against me.  We enjoyed each others touch and we both swept away in the moment of passion.  My hands her still scared and hesitant.  But when they moved too slow, she grabbed them with her hands and placed them where she wanted.  We did not have sex in the jacuzzi.  But we we quite intimate, passionate, and felt each others happiness.

When I time was up, we went into the changing room together this time.  Yet she was still nervous.  I got dressed.  But when it was her time to take off her bikini, she motioned for me to leave the room.  So I did.  I was very confused as to why she would not want me to see her naked body after we had been so intimate just moments earlier.

When we left, we search for another ATM.  We found a branch that was open and I went in to talk with them.  They said that since I had an international Bank account, only a Citibank bank would work for me.  We found one and I finally got some more cash.

My stomach began hurting again.  But they were hungry so we went to dinner.  As they looked over the menu, I rushed to the bathroom.  And went again twice more before the food arrived.  My novia was concerned about me.  So she called a pharmacy and had some stuff delivered.  She gave me a pill to make my stomach better and some medicine to drink.  I was ok until their food arrive.  It looked and smelled amazing.  But the strong oder from it hit me like a ton of bricks.  I tried to hold out through dinner, but my novia knew I could so she asked for a to-go back and we went back to the agency.

They ate while I rested.  The drugs kicked in and I felt better.  She had wanted to go to a movie that night with her sisters.  When I was feeling better, I said we should go.  They came over and we left together to the movie.  It was a great movie and a lot of fun.  As we drove home, she was going to drop me off then go home with her sisters.  But by the time we got to the agency, she changed her mind.  She was worried about me, so they all came in.  Her sisters watched tv while I laid in bed and my novia took care of me.

It was so wonderful  I haven't felt that cared for in many, many years.  I can't remember when.  She was simply amazing.  She made she I took my medicine, had plenty of fluids, and was comfortable laying in bed.  She held me and we said sweet things to each other.  They stayed for another 2 hours.  As I was getting tired, I told her that I needed to sleep and that she should go home.

I had another night with little sleep.  But I was content in feeling her love.  Just awake and on the toilet every hour or so.

Day 5
I awoke shortly before I needed to.  I got dressed and packed.  When my translator arrived, we picked up my novia and headed to the airport.  I held her in my arms the whole ride.  We whispered sweet things to each other.  I sang her a few romantic songs in her ear.  She stayed with me at the airport until I need to go through security.  I spent a long while thinking of something romantic to say to her.  I remembered it all, but burst into tears.  She responded with the most passionate and romantic thing I have ever had a woman say to me.  I have never felt more loved than in that moment.  We kissed goodbye and I left through security.
 
Conclusions
This trip was a roller coaster of emotions for me.  Part of it I think was caused by my own insecurity.  Part of it was caused by a lack of understanding of the Colombian culture.

I think I did several good things before and on this trip.  Mostly, I kept at it.  Despite all of my fears, I kept acting optimistic and kept marching forward.  I also moved very slow with my novia sexually.  I had now spent two trips and a total of 14 days with her and we have not yet had sex.  I have never done that with any other woman in my life.  And I truly believe that my respecting her desires and waiting until she is ready has allowed me to bloom the delicate flower that she is and see truly how beautiful she is.  I also work hard to learn Spanish when I am with her.  I each thing I say is another way of telling her how wonderful she is.  She really liked when I say romantic things to her.  Also, it was really good I came back to Colombia so soon.  I think it really gave this relationship the chance to grow before the distance set in.

I also made several mistakes.  First off, I should have asked her how often she is able to communicate.  It turns out that she does not have a computer or internet access.  So she sometimes only gets a computer once a week for a few minutes.  And that is why she has infrequent short emails.  Clarifying that would have saved me a lot of stress.  I also should have never created a Facebook account.  I hate Facebook.  And it only caused me trouble.  I also should have stayed for more days.  I did not get enough time with her.

I have been back a few days now.  I already have my third trip booked over Christmas.  I am continuing to use Jamie's agency because the service is just top notch.  I have signed her up for English lessons.  She is very happy and excited to learn English.  It will help us better communicate.  And it will give as a weekly phone call to talk to each other with a translator.  I think this will help keep the bond while we are apart.

I also have signed up for dancing lessons.  I am not telling her about it.  I want to surprise her by taking her dancing on my next trip and then actually know what I am doing.  I can't wait.

JV,
As a married veteran to a woman from South America, I regret to inform you that what most people have stated here is true.
She is using you and really not that into you.
In addition, you should have had sex on the second trip down to visit her. This is also proof she is not into you.
Ask any veteran here on this board if they didn't have sex with their future wives or long term girlfriends by the second trip.
Everyone here did...trust me on that.

[Researcher]

    JV, I know it is tough when you have strong feelings for a woman but be honest with yourself. Do you think she feels the same wat about you?  Even if she does can you move forward with this relationship without getting what you want out of it?

  It is totally up to you of course but don't over think things.With the way you feel about her you will soon start to make excuses for her even if things were to get worse with her.I have seen it many times.Once a guy starts to find excuses for a woman's behavior it becomes a habit and  a source of denial. Sit down and think about this with more logic and see what conclusions you come up with.


       Researcher

[fathertime]

As for paying for everybody., That s normal. jvorhees was on the hook for himself and his girl, the translator and the cab driver....and the sisters...... What he could have done is tell his translator to tell the cousin s boyfriend that HE was on the hook for the cousin. That s the  cloest thing to a mistake that jvorhees made in that outing.

That is total horsecrap.  You would NEVER be paying for a bunch of sisters showing up on a date of yours, so why is it different for Vorhees?   He was put in a bad position with sisters being invited on the date.  That was NOT appropriate and there is not a real excuse for it.  If anything, he should have been told in advance and then decided if he wanted to proceed.





Consider this Jvorhees,  this young lady has shown a bit of her personality.  She is not going to be a real laid back lady.  The way you describe that facebook questioning she gave you is just a small indication of what is yet to come in 100’s of different life situations.  Currently based on what you have been saying you have been playing defense with her.  You can’t keep doing that, not with this lady, she will eat you alive.  It may be too late now, but I would definitely take a different tact with her.  You have got to be WAY more assertive and take charge.  You have got to be the ‘decider’.   Can you imagine bringing a this lady back to the states with all your kids and having her aggressively questioning your every move that she doesn’t like?  That is what you have brought out in her thus far.  This kind of woman has to be kept in check and to this point (I think you are new to this) she is out of control and would NOT be a very good spouse under these conditions, unless you like to be under somebody’s thumb.  Now even if you could tame her a bit, you gotta ask yourself, do I want to be with somebody that I am going to have to tame all the time?   At this point, the woman is not the problem, it is how you are handling her that is! 


I know you have the big boner for this gal and that may be overriding your saner side.  I’ve been there many times.  Consider this, you could continue to have fun with lady and maybe even get down to having a genuine session between the sheets and still come to the realization that she is not going to be wife material.  Either way, you are going to learn a crapload from this experience and you can live to fight another day! 


Hope that wasn’t too harsh!




Fathertime! 

[z_k_g]

jv,

Hope you are reading all the posts...lots of good stuff here!

Just another friendly reminder..............

You are a walking ATM machine!

Z

[dennislevy]

jvorhees mentioned that he had visited the mom s house in Baranquilla and he was taken aback by the poverty, i know what he may have seen, a naked 40 watt light bulb in the ceiling, concrete slab floor, cheap plastic garden chairs used for furniture, curtains in door ways, maybe not even a refrigeferator.

My point is that life is hard for many in Colombia. The lower classes of Costeño culture are COMMUNAL People do things together.

jvorhees was invited to Santa marta, I DOUBT if he was charged rent for the room he shared with his girl!!!!!! She offered him the hospitality of her extended family s home.

 it wasn t a specific DATE, so much as a GATHERING, a GROUP of people that included jvorhees.  jvorhees, I want to ask you something, did you bring the sisters with you and your girl to Santa marta in the cab.....or did you meet them in Santa marta? if its the latter, she wanted him to meet her sisters, probably so she could  get their take on him.

I don t think she used him as an ATM or did an expenses dump on him, or what happened is simply a PROFOUND difference between individualistic American culture and costeña group culture.

He was inexperienced, he doesn t speak Spanish, he never told the girl before hand what his expectations were, of WHAT he would pay for and NOT pay for BEFORE.  But if BEFORE , he had said that he wouldn t  pay for the sisters  meals, any chance of a relationship would have evaporated!!!!!!!  The sisters are 15 years old!!!!!!

And he couldnt split her off from the cousin and the sisters...that doesnt  wash.

ONE AGAIN READ THE TWO TRIP REPORTS!!!

The facebook sisue is probably about heightened fear and
jealousy just t as were all the questions she asked about his ex wife...colombian women are like that because of what has happened in their lives.

the differences between jvorheees and I are considerable. I am 24 years older, I wouldn t date a 23 year old girl and although I ve dated poor costeñas, if a costeña mentioned meeting people, i ve always said.....

Wonderful! , can we meet them in their  home?  I ll bring flowers and candy or a bottle of wine.

jvorhees, i it s way to be sociable on the coast but avoid expenses for group meals.!!!! You wll also learn more about the culture by being in people s homes.

I have sprung for lunch with a costeña mom and her daughter......but was asked beforehand, the woman was 38 years old. .

But a point to be made, if you go back to Baranquilla to be with Cinderella, you will HAVE TO tell her that you can t and wont keep taking her out with her kid sisters. You might offer maybe one lunch together and then the rest of the time you want to spend time with her alone and THAT may be challenging if she is responsbile for her kid sisters and they all live together and she is a surrogate mom.

if she wants to be with you, she has to farm them out to somebody and that s a discussion you MUST have as part of making the relationship grow between now and the next trip.

YOU met the girl through the agency, so you didn t have a chance to qualify her up front ,but one of the most important questions to ask as quickly as possible wth any woman...who do you live with? 

And in that way, you can judge the potential for privacy with any Colombian woman for getting away from the family and for possibly being lovers, not that it will necessarily happen...but the potential of it happening.....   

I took my exgirlfriend s family in Medellin out for dinner several times, but it was pre arranged.

What I remember is that the FIRST night I met her in Medellin, we went out to dinner with her brothers and their wives, and the brothers picked up the check!

But she was 52 and from a dfferent class of Colombian culture.

jvorhees Keep the posts coming

[z_k_g]

Day 3

They ask me to buy them all a drink, so I did.  They I was asked to buy the cake for the party, so I did.  But I was getting crabby about it and starting to feel like an atm machine.

Dennis,

I read his entire TRIP REPORT!

He felt like an ATM machine I didn't make this up and make any assumptions.  We can only go by what is posted and I didn't infer anything or jump to any conclusions.

In my life experience I have learned some pretty hard lessons about relationships. 

One lesson that is hardest to learn is "listen to your first mind" some people call it "the little voice" You know that voice, the one we don't listen to! 

Thing is most of the time the little voice is right!!

Jv's little voice was telling him that this situation was not right and he even went so far as to relate this in his post.  So he must feel this is a pretty significant red flag, and I agree.

Jv said it best himself....

I was starting to feel like an ATM machine (paraphrasing his words)

I agree.....

Jv you are an ATM machine 

Zulu

[JWR]

It's great how many guys will take their time to write, and really try to help a guy out on this board.  We don't always agree, but guys are trying to keep a guy from making mistakes.
 
Once a guy goes "over the edge" it's like trying to take the keys from a drunk driver.......
 
Been there, done that.

[dennislevy]

Zulu et al
There are actually two trip reports, one from September as well....when he met the girl  among others at jamie s agency.

Z, I htought your last post about building a relationship in the interim was spot on.

Im not defending the girl or even suggesting that she is an appropriate candidate for marriage. Frankly, I don t think that jvorhees is very knowledable about the process and how expensive it can be......,

What I am trying to do is make comments about the dfferences in cultures....He may have FELT like an ATM, simply because he wasnt used to the costeño culture,,,,,but it doesn t mean that she was DELIBERATELY using him. The girl is young, she may not know any differently......notice I didnt say know any better,  I said not know differently.

And if he can t get enough Spanish and can t anticpate and develop polite responses,and just as impotantly as others have suggested  to.man up and be more decisive....... he won t survive dating in the costeña culture.

He got himself involved in a complicated sitation, extended family, a girl that he says he loves....but he was away from Baranquilla and the agency and no wingman , etc..

But I think if she had taken him to Santa Marta simply too bank the wekeend and she wasn t really that interested in him, she wouldn t have let herself get that close to him in the spa pool. 

Over the next month he s got to figure out if its worth it for him to see her again. ....and how to do that is another topic.

 

[Researcher]

     JWR, "over the edge" is spot on!

    One of the worst things a guy can do is turn into Dr Phil and try to analyze the woman.It is a bad habit that leads to making excuses for someone that just isn't right for you.It has been said here this woman just isn't into JV.That is an accurate assessment.

     The most important thing is whether YOU are getting what you want from this relationship.Focusing too much on this woman and her situation just distracts from asking youself if you are happy with the situation.

    Guys like myself, Zulu and JWR have been through the process of finding a woman to have a long distance relationship with.It seems we ALL agree on this: Don't settle! (Correct me if I am wrong Zulu and JWR)

       Researcher

[z_k_g]

   
    Guys like myself, Zulu and JWR have been through the process of finding a woman to have a long distance relationship with.It seems we ALL agree on this: Don't settle! (Correct me if I am wrong Zulu and JWR)

Don't settle.

With all the time, expense and dedication involved in this process there is no reason not to maintain a high standard.

Z, I htought your last post about building a relationship in the interim was spot on.

Jv never left the starting blocks.....kissing and cuddling does not a relationship build.....

Im not defending the girl or even suggesting that she is an appropriate candidate for marriage. Frankly, I don t think that jvorhees is very knowledable about the process and how expensive it can be......,

True, True

What I am trying to do is make comments about the dfferences in cultures....He may have FELT like an ATM, simply because he wasnt used to the costeño culture,,,,,but it doesn t mean that she was DELIBERATELY using him. The girl is young, she may not know any differently......notice I didnt say know any better,  I said not know differently.

Shoot me or stab me, I still die a bloody death!

You had me until this one Dennis.  I just can't allow her to have that much control and then at the same time not require her to be responsible for her own actions.

And if he can t get enough Spanish and can t anticpate and develop polite responses,and just as impotantly as others have suggested  to.man up and be more decisive....... he won t survive dating in the costeña culture.

In my opinion if Jv knew average Spanish he would not have picked this girl.  He's basically in a fishbowl with ultimate arm candy all in his grill and its open season on his wallet.

He got himself involved in a complicated sitation, extended family, a girl that he says he loves....but he was away from Baranquilla and the agency and no wingman , etc..

But I think if she had taken him to Santa Marta simply too bank the wekeend and she wasn t really that interested in him, she wouldn t have let herself get that close to him in the spa pool. 

Over the next month he s got to figure out if its worth it for him to see her again. ....and how to do that is another topic.

Dennis,

I'd like to add to your viewpoint.....In my opinion is SIGNIFICANTLY much more DIFFICULT to deal with a younger woman.  You have to be at the expert level to maneuver through all the age issues, nuances, immaturity and lack of experience. 

Add to that the language barrier and you got a train wreck waiting to happen if you don't have the "game" to understand how to win with a younger woman.  In general I think its much much easier to deal with women in the early 30's.

Jv ain't got the language skill and ain't got his game quite where it needs to be yet.

He needs to learn the language then spend his hard earned money on some quality time on the ground in Colombia (not with a 25 yo c*ck tease), dancing, socializing, understanding the culture and meeting and boning new babes (over 30)

I would further suggest that he meet a 35-40 year old babe, just for fun, learn the ropes, polish up on his game, and as a bonus, get multiple nights (and days and mornings) of shagging till ya drop while improve his conversational Spanish!

Once he gets some miles under his dancing shoes he will see his "love" in a whole different light.

And he will be prepared to fish in deep water (25 and under if he likes) and maybe ready to find a Colombian wife!

Z

[Micky]

One,  I do think that JV made one hell of a trip report (really two).  He went to great length on both and went that extra mile,  being honest about how he truly felt about the whole experience,  SUPER KUDOS for that.  The type of post that WILL help others out,  as long as they are willing to listen and learn.
Two,  I am not going to bang on Dennis for his "taking the other side".  He is just pointing out some things that are valid and do add some balance to others opinions.  It is,  after all,  POSSIBLE that the women is not that bad and JV is totally at fault for not taking "the bull by the horns".
A few things that are not known,  but give me some concern,  and I have read all of JV's TR's and posts. As DL pointed out,  and is fundamental in the Latin culture,  communal and family,  this is absolutely so. Why is it that this women moves out,  on her own?  Then her sisters move out, some years later,  and live with her?  With all the family here in Medellin,  brothers,  sisters,  aunts,  uncles,  and all the seconds and thirds, I have never known,  or heard of one single person moving out on their own.  When there has been a problem with one of the youngers,  they ALWAYS move in with one of the other families,  NOT on their own.  Her story may be kosher,  but does not sound that way to me.  The other thing that I find bothersome, she picks the spa?  When a person that is from a background of very limited funds makes that kind of choice,  there is something VERY wrong,  a very questionable thought process in that decision.
I do hope that JV takes all of these things that have been written in the spirit that they have been written.  It is not a BASH JV,  or JV is a fool,  it is the collective knowledge of men who have been down the same road.  It is ALL meant to help a brother succeed in his endeavor.  JV is to be commended for taking the first step,  many talk,  few act,  JV has acted.

Micky

[Micky]

Z -
 
You made your post while I was writing.  Some VERY good advice and points.
 
Micky

[z_k_g]

Micky,

I hope Jv does not have the impression that I see him as a fool.

If so that's not my intent at all.

When I was growing up my mother used to tell me all the time "boy you can't smell your own sh*t"

I think Jv needs to hear the same from the P-L faithful.

We are just watching his back.

Zulu

[Researcher]

One,  I do think that JV made one hell of a trip report (really two).  He went to great length on both and went that extra mile,  being honest about how he truly felt about the whole experience,  SUPER KUDOS for that.  The type of post that WILL help others out,  as long as they are willing to listen and learn.
Two,  I am not going to bang on Dennis for his "taking the other side".  He is just pointing out some things that are valid and do add some balance to others opinions.  It is,  after all,  POSSIBLE that the women is not that bad and JV is totally at fault for not taking "the bull by the horns".
A few things that are not known,  but give me some concern,  and I have read all of JV's TR's and posts. As DL pointed out,  and is fundamental in the Latin culture,  communal and family,  this is absolutely so. Why is it that this women moves out,  on her own?  Then her sisters move out, some years later,  and live with her?  With all the family here in Medellin,  brothers,  sisters,  aunts,  uncles,  and all the seconds and thirds, I have never known,  or heard of one single person moving out on their own.  When there has been a problem with one of the youngers,  they ALWAYS move in with one of the other families,  NOT on their own.  Her story may be kosher,  but does not sound that way to me.  The other thing that I find bothersome, she picks the spa?  When a person that is from a background of very limited funds makes that kind of choice,  there is something VERY wrong,  a very questionable thought process in that decision.
I do hope that JV takes all of these things that have been written in the spirit that they have been written.  It is not a BASH JV,  or JV is a fool,  it is the collective knowledge of men who have been down the same road.  It is ALL meant to help a brother succeed in his endeavor.  JV is to be commended for taking the first step,  many talk,  few act,  JV has acted.

Micky

    I had some trouble posting this to start but then I do post from my Etch-A-Sketch! hahaha!

  Micky I respect your opinion but I don't think anyone is intending to bash JV.This kind of  subject  can be difficult to express one's true opinion on and be diplomatic. But I have to tell you that when you are looking for someone to have a long distance relationship with, at least in the beginning, there is less room for error.Giving someone the benefit of the doubt can be a bad move and lead to a mess down the road.There are just too many available women out there to settle for less than what you want.

  For me, if it wasn't right I moved on.I saw guys that just hung on to women that weren't right for them and it baffled me.It is so easy to find available women when you are international dating and the dating pool is too huge to settle.If a guy lives in the same area as the woman he is dating and can see her on a regular basis then it is ok to give the benefit of doubt more often.Sooner or later you will see things as they really are.Not so with international dating and LDRs.A guy needs to be more picky in my opinion.


     Researcher

[dennislevy]

Gents

Agreed, no one is trying to bash jv. The points are made with gusto.

Micky s point about the girl and her sisters beng thrown out of the mothers house is worth considering.  IF it is true, its a BADLY dusfunctional family....I ll venture to say that THERE IS a greater  dysfuctionality in family groups on the coast  then in other parts of Colombia.

It s a general obervation, I ve got no statistics, just my hunch and  experience in talking with costeñas.

In March, in Riohacha. 4 hours east of Santamarta I was with a 38 year old widow who told me that at 18 she had married at 14, had a child at 17,her 24 year old husband (and the father)  was killed in a robbery of his business and his relatives told her she had 48 hours after the funeral to get out of the house.


If what she told me was true,,,then its just an example that life can be pretty COLD in the lower classes on the coast.

And jv may never KNOW the real reasons why the girl and her youger sisters are out of the house.,,,if its true......The mom may not want the current live in hitting on the younger sisters, .if there is family,maybe no one wants to take them in.....because of the mom s behavior anything  is possible....

But if the 23 eyar old girl is workingot support herself and her ssiters and she is resposnbile for them...she s strong.

I also don t agree that she definitely a tease.. becasue she didnt have intercourse with our gringo friend

She may be waiting to see if he comes back a  third time, its a legitimate way to make a gringo commit........and that s different then a tease.  Other then telling her that he loves her and a lockedt with a couple of photos of them, he hasnt made any CONCRETE committments

If she was sincere when she said we dont know each other well enough yet, thats a legit reason, the best reason of all...... it simply means that she ddint  know him or trust him yet.

Given the glimpse we ve gotten into he family history, doesnt surprise me....

Lat February I was with a 45 year old woman,who was reluctant to sleep with me and we had chatted at least a month on line before I met her....45 divorced and the mother of two sons,  I went to one s son wedding as her date.  I wrote about that......

One night when we were together in a bus between Riohacha and Macaio and this is in La Guajira, east of Baranquilla and Santa Marta , we had had the I wont sleep with you conversation earlier in the day on the beach in Riohacha.....


BUT we were kissing in the dark, she placed my hands on her breasts, and whsipered  i dont want to you to think Im a cold woman..


And she wasn t ... .....

We sealed the deal a day or two  later,  She just needed some additonal reassurance and time to get past her fears

Our gringo friend ran out of time with Cinderella  he had a schedule of 5 days, she didnt have the same schedule... its something  they will have to sort out before a third  trip if he wants to try and keep going with her.

Once again every woman has her own sexuality, her own standards of what she will do and when with a man (depending on how she feels aobut him)  and her own sexual history.

I wish benjo would come into this thread, as a young guy who s dated costeñas, I would be interested to know what he thinks based on all the information that jvorhees put up on the board.


 








 

[JWR]

I agree with Dennis on the sex issue.  They really haven't spent that much total time together.  It's many of  the other behaviors that are a concern.
 
These relationships deserve plenty of time to get to know the girl.  Most guys just don't have the time to do it justice. When I met my ex-wife, we spent about 5 weeks getting to know each other on my 1st trip.  We waited til our wedding night for sex.  She was catholic and very conservative.   We had about 7 weeks together total when we got married. 
 
But I will say that all the writing was already on the wall from the beginning that lead to our eventual divorce.  I ignored all the red flags because I had gone "over the edge".  Then when things started to come up, after we were married, then of course it was too late.  That is why I'm pushing JV to keep his eyes wide open.
 
Nobody is perfect and there are always two sides to every story.  But there are some fundamental personality traits that a wife needs to have to keep you from ending up miserable down the road.
 
My ex also came from a broken family. This often leads to serious trust issues.