Is economic security the main reason?

[Bob_S]

So, at question here is how will the dialogue be presented:  As an open exchange if ideas and lifestyles, or as a more restrictive forum with more judgemental undertones?  That is a question that remains unanswered - and in truth depends on the temperament of the active posters at the time.

(NOTE: There are other very active and information rich forums that cater to the lowest common denominator.  There are none that maintain a wide, intelligent, and well mannered atmosphere.

While at times the common denominator here can be very low, it has never been so base as to tolerate the insulting, direct or implied, of members' wives or fiancées.


I have noticed that while you personally seem to enjoy taunting the wife hunters and poking them with a stick, you never stoop to insulting directly the women they finally select to bring home.  A fact that is much appreciated.

[Zon]

I have noticed that while you personally seem to enjoy taunting the wife hunters and poking them with a stick, you never stoop to insulting directly the women they finally select to bring home.  A fact that is much appreciated.

Bob, I admire your comments and stature, and the type of man you appear to be.   Honestly, I have not understood how / why guys that have married a foreign woman perceive me as taunting!!!!   Hell, it is highly likely that I will be one someday.  But, since you think so too, I will take a good, long look in the mirror.   

Insult somebodies wife?!?!?   I would never do that.  In fact, I try never to personalize my comments.  I make my observations, and at times they are not PC.  (I do realize, however, I have recently fallen short and have implies that one member has a small willie.  I promise to improve)

[V_Man]

Bob wrote:

If you denigrate the institution of marriage, those who chose the path of seeking a foreign spouse, and our wives by implication that they are some sort of prostitute, you will be invited to take your sex tourist advocacy to some other site that better caters to that audience.

No problem with that on it's own but it was in response to a guy pointing out out that prepagos and cleaners are much cheaper and less work than marriage. I did not think he was saying it was the same as marriage only that it was cheaper.
This is a thread about the costs of marriage for men.
We are not talking about the benefits in this thread.

When talking about the costs, the fact is that they have been understated in this thread. It is a simple fact. It is not denigrating marriage to face up to the facts created by our western laws. It is the world most of us live in and if we can't talk about the realities of marriage here then this forum will be much poorer for it.

Let me give you an example. I meet this guy just a few years ago. We are both divorced so we got chatting about our divorces. This guy was married for almost 8 years. He had taken the time to add up what his divorce had cost him and he told me the figure.

I said to him, if I had met you before you got married and told you that you could have two $500 per night hookers every week for 8 years for the same cost of being married, you would not have believed me. Yet it is the truth.

If sex is a huge factor in a man's decision to be married then he needs to put these things in perspective.
Most guys consider other factors obviously. I don't know why that even needs to be stated. Therefore the equation shifts. However that is no reason to ignore the real costs.

Succesful marriages have a cost. The sooner both people accept this the more likely that they will have a succesful relationship. That is not  denigrating marriage either. It is the simple plain truth.

[af1]

I don't understand how anyone can put a price on a relationship. My parents have a great marriage and I don't see either one of them keeping a tally on what it is worth. I guess it depends on how you live. If paying for sex and using money to keep someone with you is how a person operates then I guess everything would have a price.

[fathertime]

I don't understand how anyone can put a price on a relationship. My parents have a great marriage and I don't see either one of them keeping a tally on what it is worth. I guess it depends on how you live. If paying for sex and using money to keep someone with you is how a person operates then I guess everything would have a price.

Well AF1, if you listen to some of these guys you would think a 'great marriage' doesn't even exist....i agree with your 4-square though for some people they always equate money/sex as if they are always linked and in the forefront of a woman's mind.  When that is the case, the man/gringo will have suspicions and always interpret every action of a woman in a way that makes his premature conclusion of money for sex,  be the only possibility.  Very crappy way to look at things, most of these types of guys remain single and that is for the best until their attitude changes. 


Fathertime! 

[Bob_S]

No problem with that on it's own but it was in response to a guy pointing out out that prepagos and cleaners are much cheaper and less work than marriage. I did not think he was saying it was the same as marriage only that it was cheaper.
This is a thread about the costs of marriage for men.
We are not talking about the benefits in this thread.

I certainly don't deny that marriage has a cost.  When things go well, you don't keep a tally.  And if/when it collapses, you naturally have a morbid curiosity about how much of your time and effort, measured in hard currency, has been wasted in that relationship.  I did the same thing when my marriage to a RW collapsed.  When I guestimated the cost of everything from the first addresses I purchased from A Foreign Affair out of curiosity, to all the agency trips I took, to bringing over a girl, getting married, the car and new wardrobe, to finally the divorce, it came up to a sizable eye-popping sum.  But really it's not the marriage that cost me.  Nor was it the girl that cost me.  It was I that cost me.  It was the result of a series of bad choices I made along the way.  A very expensive life lesson.

So it was not just aconcepts assertion that prepagos were cheaper or better than marriage, it was his assertion in this and previous posts that marriage was nothing more than a form of commerce, trading sex for money.  That is implying that wives are nothing but a type of prostitute.  An offensive insinuation to say the least.  Aconcepts has not been banned, but he has been warned that if he continues this line of reasoning, the men (and few women) of this board that value marriage as something much more than a base transaction of jink for nookie will not long tolerate his denigrating their relationships.

[Brazilophile]

So it was not just aconcepts assertion that prepagos were cheaper or better than marriage, it was his assertion in this and previous posts that marriage was nothing more than a form of commerce, trading sex for money.  That is implying that wives are nothing but a type of prostitute.  An offensive insinuation to say the least.  Aconcepts has not been banned, but he has been warned that if he continues this line of reasoning, the men (and few women) of this board that value marriage as something much more than a base transaction of jink for nookie will not long tolerate his denigrating their relationships.

I am not looking to get banned or warned.  I only want to remark that I remember militant feminists of the 1970's, such as Andrea Dworkin, making the EXACT same assertions about marriage as Aconcepts has.  My understanding then was that feminists felt the institution of marriage at that time was so demeaning and degrading to women, precisely because of the implications of the financial arrangements of marriage, that  it needed to be completely razed and rebuilt from the ground up.  I think they have substantially succeeded!

[z_k_g]

I am not looking to get banned or warned.  I only want to remark that I remember militant feminists of the 1970's, such as Andrea Dworkin, making the EXACT same assertions about marriage as Aconcepts has.  My understanding then was that feminists felt the institution of marriage at that time was so demeaning and degrading to women, precisely because of the implications of the financial arrangements of marriage, that  it needed to be completely razed and rebuilt from the ground up.  I think they have substantially succeeded!

Its good that you have put the Feminist Agenda on front street.

In another related post this same subject has been discussed.

I would disagree with your last conclusion somewhat.

I think the Fems failed in completely razing the institution of marriage. 

What they did do was tear away at the weakest elements of marriage and rebuilt the institution so that men's power was nullified and prepared the foundation to where women were in complete control and leadership.

First of all, Fems understand that the only thing that matters in a relationship is the leader, the final decision maker, the king.

And they also understand that men are the natural leaders, so part of their primary agenda is to eliminate any possibility that men will be the leader of the family unit.

Fems introduced this ideal of "life partners" in the context of marriage because the term "partner" is gender neutral.  Fems knew it would be next to impossible to implement their changes if the terms husband and wife were used.

So they slowly and deliberately force fed this idea of equal "partners" in the context of marriage.

It took decades but now the brainwashing is almost complete and the term partners has become synonamous with husband and wife.   

But the circle is not complete, the Fems have not completely reached their ultimate goal which is to introduce the gender neutral term "partner" term into law.

Once this is done, the Fems will have succeeded into reducing the institution of marriage into a female dominated vocation.

Zulu

[z_k_g]

In an earlier post it was suggested that some posters on P-L are counting on the money that their foreign wife will make once they arrive in the states and at the same time minimize or reduce the amount of money they will send home.

As far as I am concerned this type of individual is a scammer, a pimp and the type of individual who the IMBRA laws are written. 

The thing is, I have been reading P-L posts for almost two years and a fair bit of the archives, I have apparently missed these posts from these low life individuals on P-L. 

If I had seen or had a hint of this type of low life I would have called them out myself.

I really dislike bums who use unsuspecting women and take advantage of a somewhat naive and beautiful young woman who is only looking for a good husband and a bright future.

As I said, I've read pretty much 100% of the posts on P-L and I can't figure out who these people posters are.

Please point out the posts that led to the discovery of these bums and their "backdoor" intentions.

We need to call them out!

Zulu

[vikingo]

There seems to be an urgency in First World countries for women wanting to get married. I lived several years in rural Panama and noticed that almost none of the couples I knew, who had several children mind you, where married. All of them had been living together in harmony, caring for one another and raising their kids. After five years of living in common law the woman had legal rights. The man's estate would be evenly devided between his children and the common law wife if he passed on without a will.
I believe a foreign woman is insisting on marriage because she wants to secure her future economic situation, unless she is highly qualified of course and that would become a mute point.
Far be it for me to step on anybodies toes, but in my opinion there is an indirect relation between a woman offering her body in a relationship and the man having monetary resources, to support her. If he didn't have a dime to his name, she won't be sleeping with him, period. If I have a foreign gf, and I do, I buy her clothes, food , jewelry, presents and in return she sleeps with me. If we were married, the same would take place. If I would stop buying her things, after a while she most likely would look for someone who does. I often wondered what the definition of a long term prepago is.
Can anybody help me out here or am I being insecure and she would never leave no matter how bad it get's? What if you suddenly lose your job, her standard of living with you will change drastically, will she be with you through thick and thin or will she leave you for someone who is better off than you are?

[Kiltboy1]

Vikingo
 
I got downsized in 2008 and then again in 2010 and both times my wife ( From Ecuador), said not to worry, that she will take an extra job if need be until I found something, so I do have to somewhat disagree with you point . If you choose correctly a woman that parents were together a long time and taught them true human values, then they will stay with there man in bad times. Now, if the man is an A---HOLE, then we are talking a whole other ending, but normal , decent  , men, the woman should tough it out if she really loves the man. Key phrase there is "  REALLY LOVES THE MAN"
 
KB

[Zon]

Now, if the man is an A---HOLE, then we are talking a whole other ending, but normal , decent  , men, the woman should tough it out if she really loves the man. Key phrase there is "  REALLY LOVES THE MAN"

Excellent point - that changes everything

[z_k_g]

I think most women would stick it out.

But.....In my experience, the real problem is when the sisters, girlfriends, mother and aunts start gossiping and demand that she dump the "loser".

Those good "friends" and relatives will already have your replacement picked out!

Zulu

[whitey]

Vikingo
 
I got downsized in 2008 and then again in 2010 and both times my wife ( From Ecuador), said not to worry, that she will take an extra job if need be until I found something, so I do have to somewhat disagree with you point . If you choose correctly a woman that parents were together a long time and taught them true human values, then they will stay with there man in bad times. Now, if the man is an A---HOLE, then we are talking a whole other ending, but normal , decent  , men, the woman should tough it out if she really loves the man. Key phrase there is "  REALLY LOVES THE MAN"
 
KB

Now that's a great woman!  Hope you're back on your feet Kiltboy.  I was downsized this April after 15 years with the company, just before Nazly's visa came through.  I was fortunate to land an even better job 3 months later, and haven't looked back.

[Kiltboy1]

Thanks Whitey
 
She is a great woman. I went into business for myself and was the best move I ever made. I am a MFG. Rep now in the Jan/San industry and is pretty much recession proof. I have more business then time now , but I am not complaining.My wife actually investigated this industry as many customers in the credit union she is manager at  told he it was recession proof.Loyal and Smart. I hit it our of the park this time 
 
KB

[Deseo]

Those were a couple of very nice posts Whitey and Kiltboy.  You both clearly found great gals down in South America. A great reminder to a guy like me who is still looking as to why this venture is so worth it.

[whitey]

Those were a couple of very nice posts Whitey and Kiltboy.  You both clearly found great gals down in South America. A great reminder to a guy like me who is still looking as to why this venture is so worth it.

Yes, keep the faith Deseo!  There are a lot of great women out there ... sometimes you get lucky like me ... other times it just might take a little longer to find her ... but I am convinced there are MANY great women.

[benjio]

Yes, keep the faith Deseo!  There are a lot of great women out there ... sometimes you get lucky like me ... other times it just might take a little longer to find her ... but I am convinced there are MANY great women.

Deseo, just to clarify. No one gets lucky like Whitey. He was dealt a royal flush and broke the house. All we can do is hope to leave with most of our property still in our name! 

[Deseo]

Benjio: Yep, I am familiar with Whitey's story. A royal flush indeed!

[Researcher]

Deseo, just to clarify. No one gets lucky like Whitey. He was dealt a royal flush and broke the house. All we can do is hope to leave with most of our property still in our name! 

                        I don't know. I think UtopiaCowboy got pretty lucky and I can think of a few other guys I know.


    Researcher

[V_Man]

Personally I don't think marriage is ever a simple sex for money thing. If that is what yours is then there would have been warning signs that you ignored before you got married.

I think that when you get divorced many women want to retropectively make it into a sex/services for money thing and the laws solidly support this ideology.

BTW marriage costs in many ways, not only in money.

To get back to the topic question, I think that the economic security and the economic opportunities are definately part of the attraction. It helps to balance the difficulties faced.

[whitey]

                        I don't know. I think UtopiaCowboy got pretty lucky and I can think of a few other guys I know.


    Researcher

All of us who are married to good women are lucky, although my wife doesn't like that word ... she prefers to say "blessed".

But what I think Deseo and Benjio are saying in my case is that I was lucky because I wasn't looking for a relationship or a wife at the time.  I was just looking for a Spanish study partner ... and things evolved ...

[aconcepts]

Bob, in my zeal and passion I can be misunderstood.

Denigrate marriage. Hmmm. The concept of marriage is great. As long as it is a mutually acceptable concept that includes traditional roles (I am speaking for myself only). But guess what, when so many men are ready to take on the subservient role in marriage, me as the leader of our family, becomes an almost impossible sale in the US. Women lead the families there in the majority of cases.

If I was construed as denigrating marriage than let me explain. Father Knows Best. I loved that marriage. Hey even Jay and Gloria looks to be acceptable. Sure she bellyaches but you can see she is feminine and wants her man to be a man.

However almost every marriage I know of in the states is not a compromise. The husbands are sell outs to their women. Women have to take the traditional male role as leader.

I live in Costa Rica. I see the difference. When I go to my Tico neighbors home and ask a question regarding a neighborly issue the wife politely asks me to speak to her husband. When I go to a business meeting, with female attorneys, they are always treated as women and they respond as women treating men as men. When I see my married neighbor down the hill walking uphill home, I ask if she needs a ride and she accepts but sits in the back seat, so as not to give the impression that she is dishonorable.

A genderless homogenizations of roles to me is a weird kind of deal that although it is called a marriage does not look, smell or taste like any marriage I have ever known.  Its look smells and tastes like one way servitude.

Lets look at it this way: a car transports people. A boat transports people. Because they are both transportation is a boat a car?

To me a marriage is a relationship between a man and a woman where the man takes the masculine roles and the woman takes the feminine role. Just as a car traditionally has 4 wheels and does not flaot.

So I condone marriage and would love to enter a real traditional marriage in the context I have described.

No I am not denigrating marriage. I am denigrating those that do not have the backbone to keep a marriage traditional. I am denigrating character deficiency in men and I am denigrating women that want to make marriage into slavery for the man. That is exactly what I see in the US. As Zon said marriage in the US is an endless honey-do list.

That is not normal or healthy.

In Costa Rica, your average laboring blue-collar worker would never even think of letting his woman attend a girl’s night out. Yet almost every Friday night he is in the bar after work drinking with his friends. Now in Costa Rica there is almost never any women in neighborhood bars. Of course in downtown San Jose there is but we know what that is about.

Maybe some girls with their boyfriends from out of town, but honorable women do not go to bars. Honorable women do not dress as provacativly, or do they co dress as their daughters. Honorable women sacrifice their time to raise their children at home and make a home a loving place for their husband and family. They sacrifice their “outside the home” fulfillment for their family. They don’t pine for the title of vixen.

They put the stability of the family in front of themselves.

Show me a woman that fits my definition of honorable and my Costa Rican village definition of honorable. There are some in the US, but very few.

So do I support the institution of marriage? If it is traditional yes. Do I support the whimpy men enslaved to dominating women in “marriage.” Hell no. That’s no marriage to me. That’s a man caving to a women because he is hard up because he cannot find any honorable women. That is why this website exist, men now have to go out of western culture to find traditional values, most of the time.

It’s not the institution I am against it’s the people that have denigrated it with their unorthodox behavior that I am against.

If you could witness what I witness, see what I see in Costa Rica you would understand why I have such a low opinion of what the US culture defines and accepts as marriage.

Bob you have it all wrong. I am pro traditional marriage and I am anti femanazi and anti wimpy man.

Marriage cost in time and understanding are high but if you have a traditional marriage based in respectful love and mutual self sacrifice there is nothing better to spend your time and money on.

I see it here in Costa Rica. I don’t see it in the US. Or let’s put it this way. It is still the norm here (although it is changing) but a traditional marriage with traditional gender roles is not the norm in the US.

Do any of you US men even remember what a traditional marriage even looked like? You marry these nontraditional values women because you have no other choice.

Why does this site even exist?

Its because men are looking for traditional women to marry and they cannot find them in the US.

So my message is, if the woman is not traditional. If she does not put her family and her husband before herself, you should not marry her.

To me that means about a 90% decline in new marriages. To me, in my experience, US women want nothing to do with a traditional marriage. Marriage to most is a stepping-stone up the social economic ladder.

It’s like fashion to them. It’s like how they dress for their girlfriends rather than their husbands to show off the brand of clothes and accessories they have.

Husbands have become accessories in the US, merely feminine accoutrements,  and it’s fashionable for women to demonstrate how much they can command their husbands to eachother.

Oh look this one will do this for me. This one will buy me that. They aren’t looking for husbands they are looking for men to worship them. And I can’t belive it but the men buy into the rules of the women’ game! They worship their wives while the wives disdain them. They happily pant waiting for that next slap and then eagerly return for more. Disgusting! Can anyone really tell me they have not withessed it in real life. I know you have witnessed it on TV. Art is an imitation of life. My point made.

God is to be worshiped. Not wives.

Grow some character men and you will find that most women in the US are all about one thing: themselves.

That makes them not marriage material, hence that is why this website exists.

Now if men or women read this and are offended by my truth then so be it. Complain to the powers that be and have me censured. However, what I say is the honest to God truth and if you could see the way it is here and how honorable the women are here you would know why Mothers Day in Costa Rica is the number one holiday.
 
More money spent on Mother’s Day than any other federal holiday.  Yes, it is a federal holiday here and the cemeteries are full of people that go to visit their mothers and grandmothers for the honorable sacrifices they made for the husbands, children and homes.

Now, motherhood that is being a stay at home mom and a house maker is demonized by the femanazis. When in reality it’s the most important work on the planet. Go figure…

[fathertime]

 there is so much red meat on this post i don't know where to start!   
1st, there is quite of this that i do agree with,especially the parts about a woman sacrificing her style/dress for the sake of stability to the family...that is real interesting subject and you nailed quite a bit of it as far as i'm concerned.

 

  As Zon said marriage in the US is an endless honey-do list.

That is not normal or healthy.

Well if Zonny found himself in that situation, it was he that allowed it to happen.  Many men would not allow their marriage to reach that point.  Maybe he has learned how to assert more control if that is what he wants to do. 

No I am not denigrating marriage. I am denigrating those that do not have the backbone to keep a marriage traditional. I am denigrating character deficiency in men and I am denigrating women that want to make marriage into slavery for the man. That is exactly what I see in the US. As Zon said marriage in the US is an endless honey-do list.

That is not normal or healthy.

 
So do I support the institution of marriage? If it is traditional yes. Do I support the whimpy men enslaved to dominating women in “marriage.” Hell no. That’s no marriage to me. That’s a man caving to a women because he is hard up because he cannot find any honorable women. That is why this website exist, men now have to go out of western culture to find traditional values, most of the time.


Bob you have it all wrong. I am pro traditional marriage and I am anti femanazi and anti wimpy man.

I submit to you that it is the ‘wimpy man’ that can’t adapt to and accept that a woman wants to have reasonable control over decisions that affect her life.  There is no need to assert total control and I figure women *even American ones* are probably just as human as I am, so why should my point of view always trump theirs?
I imagine many men are fine with their women having more control then you would be comfy with, but I don't think they need to be denigrated just so long as the marriage works for them and their children.  I am only a partial subscriber to the fem Nazi thingy people rail about.


One other point on this subject...I don't feel I warrant a perfect lady...I have my own character defects and I submit to you that all the men travelling have plenty of these deficiency's themselves and should not be so demanding as to expect a woman from the 3rd world to listen to everything a man says without comment or disagreement.   

Why does this site even exist?

Its because men are looking for traditional women to marry and they cannot find them in the US.
 

I went looking abroad not because of women's attitudes here in the usa, but because I figured I could find a younger more attractive wife which was what I wanted and got.  There are plenty of women with attitudes I wouldn't mesh with but there are plenty of others that seem like they have decent enough attitudes regarding their husbands. 




Thanks for your thoughts,
Fathertime! 

[Jeff S]

You're preaching to the choir aconcepts. You do realize that Bob is married to a Japanese woman?