The perfect, the good and the totally wrong

[robert angel]

Here, here, indeed! I can't recall the last time I looked at the forum board and saw over a DOZEN different person's names, including two FABULOUS females!!!
 
That's what we need-- to breathe some new, positive life into this place!!!

What A Wonderful World

I see trees of green, red roses too
I see them bloom, for me and you
And I think to myself
What a wonderful world

I see skies of blue, and clouds of white
The bright blessed day, dark sacred night
And I think to myself
What a wonderful world

The colors of the rainbow, so pretty in the sky
Are also on the faces, of people going by
I see friends shaking hands, sayin', "How do you do?"
They're really sayin', "I love you"

I hear babies cryin', I watch them grow
They'll learn much more, than I'll ever know
And I think to myself
What a wonderful world

Yes, I think to myself
What a wonderful world
Oh yeah

(lyrics by Thiele, Weiss & David)

[beginthebeguin]

"Ohhhh Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh" - The satchmo!!! 

[JR33]

    BG, sorry to hear how this guy did you.It sounds very disrespectful.He could have at least been honest and courteous but some guys just aren't very honorable. They pretend to be one way but really aren't. Too bad he didn't have the courage to be honest with you.

[Ray]

 
 
 
     
 
 

[Bob_S]

On my list of the all time best songs!  On the same album loved final song 'The Last Resort' was great too!

Yeah, on my list of "if you were going to Mars and weight restrictions limited you to one CD, which one would you take" music.


Let me see if I can sum up.

BG comes on, worried that because she comes from a Machista (sp?) culture, her picker may be broken, is second guessing herself, and asks the august assembly its opinion.  Most guys of course side with BG because, hey, we're nice guys.  That's what we do.  If she were having surgery and needed blood, the line to donate starts behind me.  ISD comes in with a contrarian opinion and in not so subtle terms basically said that, yeah, her picker is broken.  My thought was, uh, doesn't he know he's talking to a girl?  His response might fly with any of us guys, but jeez, with a lady, you have to find a more tactful way to say your poop stinks.   

Anyway, as a fly on the wall, here's what I got.  Braziliangirl, from your description of events, I don't know if he's a nice guy or dirt bag, but clearly he seems distracted.  He's got a lot going on in his life right now and can't really focus on you or any relationship.  Maybe he will someday, but you are under no obligation to wait around for whenever that someday will be.  Your picker alarm is not broken.  The whole point of having a picker is to use it to sort through the frogs for the hidden princes.  Yours trying to tell you something.  You may not have found someone who is evil or even bad, just someone who is not a match for where you are in your life right now.   

[pat]

    Actually I think Braziliangirl is being too nice. Something bothers me about a guy that spends 11 months talking with her and then treating her like he did. I can't really pin it down but that is what sticks out in my mind as giving me a bad feeling about this guy.

[fathertime]

Yeah, on my list of "if you were going to Mars and weight restrictions limited you to one CD, which one would you take" music.


Let me see if I can sum up.

BG comes on, worried that because she comes from a Machista (sp?) culture, her picker may be broken, is second guessing herself, and asks the august assembly its opinion.  Most guys of course side with BG because, hey, we're nice guys.  That's what we do.  If she were having surgery and needed blood, the line to donate starts behind me.  ISD comes in with a contrarian opinion and in not so subtle terms basically said that, yeah, her picker is broken.  My thought was, uh, doesn't he know he's talking to a girl?  His response might fly with any of us guys, but jeez, with a lady, you have to find a more tactful way to say your poop stinks.   

 

1.  what ISD said was harsh constructive criticism.  It was ill-timed and BG is a woman, so it was natural for someone to jump to her defense. I understand that. 


2.  He asked to be banned, which I wish he didn't do. 


3.  I feel good about BG's possibilities, but I do think she needs to 'fine tune' her picker, as does about 80% of the world!  The guy seems like he is a jerk and as PAT said, 11 months of yapping and then not being sincere with the woman after all that time is sucko. That is almost a year out of a young woman's valuable life and based upon his actions he was not really taking her seriously enough.  BG can not allow this to happen again!  Generally speaking, cyber relationships are best when they are quite a bit shorter, in my opinion!


Fathertime! 

[AndyLee]

In hindsight my response to insandiego was pompous and heavy handed so he was right to spit back at me. It was not my place to criticize him, since BG was doing an excellent job of putting him in his place. His posts have been good up until this thread and I guess he thought he was being helpful even if I thought he was too harsh and overbearing. I wish he had not asked to be banned because his contributions have been good except for what I "judged" to be too confrontational this one time. I have always been sympathetic to the women on this board, because, as Ray pointed out, "that's what we men do". Next time I will count to ten before blasting someone.

[michaelb]

RE: InSanDeigo's post. Well, maybe ya'll will jump on me too, but I don't see what he said that was so wrong......It was obviously not what BG wanted to hear, but what it boiled down to was "You know this guy hasn't been treating you right, why do you want to continue putting up with that?"

I guess the part she took offense to was "It's hard to sympathize...", OK, that was a little blunt, but would it have helped her any or changed the situation if he had said "Oh, you poor little thing" instead?

[Dan]

RE: InSanDeigo's post. Well, maybe ya'll will jump on me too, but I don't see what he said that was so wrong......It was obviously not what BG wanted to hear, but what it boiled down to was "You know this guy hasn't been treating you right, why do you want to continue putting up with that?"

I guess the part she took offense to was "It's hard to sympathize...", OK, that was a little blunt, but would it have helped her any or changed the situation if he had said "Oh, you poor little thing" instead?

The simple facts are - the girls and the boys who participate here need to find a way to get along. No one can claim they will say anything they want anytime they want HERE at P-L. They are, of course, free to try that elsewhere. We exercise very few restrictions here at PL, but there are some that can be found in the Terms of Service (found here -- http://www.planet-love.com/index.php?topic=557.0). My understanding of ISD's position is that he felt he could no longer participate within those terms, hence, issued the "ban me" ultimatum.

I agree that InSanDiego had been a positive contributor. I was surprised to see him leap to the "ban me" statement - but I guess he, like others in the past, are so thin-skinned that a mild rebuke created an emotional response. While unfortunate, we do not need people who are so thin-skinned and over-sensitive. In fact, a strong argument could be made that if someone is so hyper-sensitive that a bit of a challenge on an internet forum results in them suffering that sort of emotional reaction, they may be VERY ill-suited for the travails of pursuing a meaningful and long-term relationship with a foreign partner. It ain't no walk in the park.

Further to the previous statement - this site is designed for those pursuing a meaningful and long-term relationship with a foreign partner. While it is understood that some folks can, and will, take a very long time in the pursuit - when it becomes apparent that a person is not sincere, or has lost their sincerity in that pursuit, it is natural for our members to seriously challenge their reasons for participation in this venue which at that point, no longer caters to their interests. We remain a venue emphasizing inclusivity, but there are some who would take (and have taken) advantage of that for their own self-serving interests. It is entirely appropriate for our members to call them out on this.

Please note that much of the above commentary was not directed at InSanDiego, though I did, admittedly, make use of this incident to place things into context.

- Dan

[InnocentVixen]

For all is worth, as a female (but a very blunt and somewhat weird one at that) I did not find ISD post that bad, though I did cringe at 2 sentences in there because it was putting salt on the wound, I believe BG was not looking for the "pobresita" treatment and she had no problem pointing out what she didn't like about his post, so that is why I did not comment about it, his response to BG was again a bit on the blunt side but still civil as far as I am concerned, it's a shame to see him go, but if that little puts him off then there is nothing we can do... I still miss UC.


I think it's very sweet you guys get a bit protective of us now and then, it just shows how close members of this forums can be.

[michaelb]

No one can claim they will say anything they want anytime they want HERE at P-L. They are, of course, free to try that elsewhere.
- Dan

Well, Dan, from a your status as a moderator, I can see you taking that one as "Anyway, what you gonna do about it?" to the board management, but that was after the post that BG took offense to and that  others chastised him for, which of course was the one I was referring to.  Be that as it may, I certainly have nothing against BG and hope things work out for her.
 

[opusone]

THere are some glaringly obvious things that BG posted that should have served as "signs" (if you will) that she was reaching out for comfort, more so than criticism .


1. She chose to share a devastating story with us here in this forum. For me this means that she thinks of us as part of her extended inner circle and was reaching out to us for something other than, pity, sympathy, or criticism.
2. She feels pain: To me this was such a huge sign in her post. Maybe some of us don't remember what if feels like to be betrayed. No matter how many signs you may have missed at the end of day, when you are betrayed it is not a good feeling. I , for one, can tell you that this girl is not jumping up and down in a gleeful manner, and the least we could have done is just offer comfort at a time like this. Did we forget that she may not be eating, sleeping, focusing, etc?
3. She knows she should have dumped him ( picker is broken) but this happens to the best of us. Again , who needs to hear that you picked the wrong man? She knows this already.
4. TIming: We may not all agree with the way she went about "picking "this person, or how long she stayed in it, but think of the timing of telling someone these things?
5. Listening: Sometimes it's good to just listen(read in this case) and offer comfort instead of solutions. I can assure you , this is a smart girl , and you can see it in all her posts. She knows exactly what to do, and all she needed was/is comfort.
6. Criticism: This was the easiest things to do . If one wanted to say that the goal of constructive criticism is to leave the person feeling as if they were being helped, consider what was constructive? There is no such things as constructive criticism when you have just been betrayed or rejected. It will amount to criticism to the one who is suffering at the moment. It is real easy to make a mountain out of a molehill. Just add more "dirt".


Armed with new found knowledge, hopefully she will pull out of it, dust herself off, and try again.

[AndyLee]

Very good post Opusone, thanks for the insights............now I see what happened to me in my first marriage that lasted a miserable 18 years, my picker was broken. Jeez,    you would think I would have woken up and stopped the carnage after the first 10 or so years. At least BG has sense enough to call a halt after only 11 months.

[robert angel]

Opus and A.L., you both have it right, but I can't help but think that when you're looking at age 30 and you're a woman, eleven months invested into a relationship that crashes and burns is harder on them than it is on most guys. It just seems to me that women are more attuned to 'time' and take things like this harder.

[opusone]

Very good post Opusone, thanks for the insights............now I see what happened to me in my first marriage that lasted a miserable 18 years, my picker was broken. Jeez,    you would think I would have woken up and stopped the carnage after the first 10 or so years. At least BG has sense enough to call a halt after only 11 months.

Yeah , Andy, some of us don't remember what it is like to be in a devastating situation. Imagine you are in the hospital and your closest friends are reminding you that your reckless behavior put you in the hospital. Now , this is after the doctor have given you bad news. What could possibly be the benefit of hearing " I told you so" ,  why didn't you eat this or that, you always drive too fast, etc. This is horrible timing. Might as well tell the person that you are there to pull the plug!!!! It would be far better for that person to hear things that will pull them out of their agony, so that you can enjoy them the way you know they have always been. I think it is almost self -serving when people start point out deficiencies in people , especially when the person has shared very intimate information with you. I do have to say that not all of the posts were of such, but , some of them just didn't make any sense in terms of the timing.

[opusone]

Opus and A.L., you both have it right, but I can't help but think that when you're looking at age 30 and you're a woman, eleven months invested into a relationship that crashes and burns is harder on them than it is on most guys. It just seems to me that women are more attuned to 'time' and take things like this harder.

Love has many different faces and though it may appear harder ,  history has shown that women really have another gear when it comes to rebounding and recovery. Some people take years to figure out who the "wrong" person is. I think she caught this quite early , considering how cunning he was. We should just give her the benefit of that (that she will recover and rebound)  and just offer support in whatever she decides. Again, she is not a stupid woman. She knows what she has to do. 

[braziliangirl]

First, about InSanDiego:

I’m sorry that he acted that way in the end and asked to be banned. But, I understand Dan that it wasn’t because he was harsh to me. It was because he thought he could post whatever he wanted. What I see is Dan doing a job of cleaning this place, which I really appreciate.

Michaelb nailed it. The "It's hard to sympathize..." thing was what really bothered me. I wasn’t asking for his sympathy, but what he did was what we call here “chutar um cachorro morto” or “kicking a dead dog”. He knew I was hurt, and almost saying it was my fault was certainly not the best thing to do.
I really meant it when I said that a little understanding on how the latin culture works would help him understand my situation. As I said in my post, maybe my picker was broken because of what I lived in the past and what I see around me.

IV knows me and she was right when she said I wasn’t looking for a "pobresita" treatment. I am a cancer survivor, for God’s sake. It was not the poor me attitude that helped me with that. (By the way, 5 years in remission, about to be discharged! \o/)

[Researcher]

    WOW BG I am glad to hear you are about to be discharged. I would say congratulations but as someone who has lost loved ones to cancer congratulations is too weak...how about that's AWESOME!

     I agree with you BG. Although posters should be able to express a different opinion other things should be taken into consideration. Maybe your "picker" is broken but there would have been a better way to express that point of view. The fact that you were 11 months involved with someone and they act like that should give some clue that you were hurt. I'm glad Dan is taking the actions he is. We could all be nicer to one another.

      Researcher 

[braziliangirl]

I had already decided to put an end in it when I posted and that’s what I did. All of your posts are helping me remember why I did that, so I am not feeling so bad. It is not like I will run to put my profile out there, but I am actually hopeful.

I really wish I could be more pragmatic like you guys, have all the rules set up on my mind and stick to it. V_man’s post explain a lot of my situation.

In addition the time and costs for me to travel mean that a trip for me does take several months to arrange no matter how crazy I am about someone. So all this talk about CAMing each night and travelling within 90 days, if applied to me would rule me out.
 

I live in a big city, but it’s in the middle of the Amazon. The only international flight we have from here goes to Paramaribo, Suriname. It’s not easy to anyone to get here or out of here, price-wise and time-wise. The flights are long and expensive. So, I couldn’t rule out a guy that didn’t visit in 3 or 4 months.

I also want to make clear that not all the I just listed the negative side of this guy. As IV said, I wouldn’t’ wait this long if he wasn’t special in other ways. He talked to me every single night during those 11 months. We went over more than a thousand questions during the first months. We have had deep, spiritual conversations and he was a very good supporter.  He would listen to me with care. He would check on me during the day. We shared the same faith, in many nights I was hopeless about something, like my promotion process that took almost an year, and he would literally preach to my heart.

So, regarding what Bob_S said:

Braziliangirl, from your description of events, I don't know if he's a nice guy or dirt bag, but clearly he seems distracted.  He's got a lot going on in his life right now and can't really focus on you or any relationship.  Maybe he will someday, but you are under no obligation to wait around for whenever that someday will be.  Your picker alarm is not broken.  The whole point of having a picker is to use it to sort through the frogs for the hidden princes.  Yours trying to tell you something. You may not have found someone who is evil or even bad, just someone who is not a match for where you are in your life right now.   

I think he is a good guy. He was just not that into me...

[braziliangirl]

I believe for woman, they have to deal with a lot more crap then men do when using the internet in search of a realtionship.

You're right, Tanuki! Guys, keep that in mind while talking to us.

[braziliangirl]

IF a man WON T visit a woman in 90 days, at the most 6 months from the first contact, for whatever reason he s not that serious about finding a foreign wife. There are nice men with good values who love to chat, but if they cant show up, they aren tmotivated. This process involves willingess and ability ot travel and perssitence.

A woman shoud never offer to viist a man and expect the man to pay for a trip, especially an international trip.  PERIOD. Either the man makes the first visit or he doesnt...and as a woman, you shoul be talking  to as many men as you can....

I don t know where you live, but if a man can t schedule a week to be in your city and spend time with you......forget it. 4 days is isn t enough .I don t know where he was coming from, but even if it was Florida and you live in some big wasy to get to city...4 days isnt enough. he may well have been meetiing oher women on  the trip that he made to see you.

That would be my first suspicion. if you didn t meet him at the airport and say goodbye him at the airport, I would be even more suspicious

You re thinking correctly, if I were you, I would immediely cut off contact with this man.

Hi Dennis,

Thank you for your insight. Just some clarifications.

As I said, it's not easy to get where I live, so I couldn't rule out a guy that could not visit me in even 6 months. This guy traveled for 17h each way and paid the equivalent of a NYC-Manila flight. Also, he was not looking for a foreign wife.

And when I hinted I could visit him, I was not expecting him to pay for my trip. I could afford that. But it just didn't feel right. I'm old school and I believe the man should pursuit the woman. And talking to more than a man at a time also doesn't feel right to me. How would you feel if you were talking to a girl that is talking to other guys? I know, I may be wrong and too romantic... But it feels like cheating.

I picked him up at the airport, drove him to his hotel and stayed with him almost every minute of his awaken time here. I also dropped him at the airport and had his travel itinerary. So it's very likely he wasn't visiting other girls in this trip.

Please don't think that I'm defending him. I just wanted to be fair and clear about my situation, though you did provided good advice!

Best,
BG

[dennislevy]

Hello Brazilian Girl


Thanks for taking the time to make a specific comment to me. 


I like your style, that s an Americanized English way to say you ve got class.
And, I understand all of your points


The only thing I can say is that for me.....I don t expect ti have cyber exclusivity with any woman over any significant distance before I meet her. She is a free agent and she can talk with anybody and I ll never ask a woman if she is talking to other men. I expect it, I don t consider it cheating and I respect her privacy.


On the internet, its just a man and a woman trying to know each other better.


But reality is the face to face enounter and if there is chemistry and a desire to have a relationship ..then its a different situation



However, I would not let 11 months go by before I visited a woman and I wouldn t  expect a woman to wait that long

If you  survived cancer, you re a resilient person and I believe that you ll get over this man.

Not to worry, there are bigger and better fish in the sea!

Thanks again for writing,


Dennis


   

[braziliangirl]

Thank you for your post, Brazilophile.

I totally agree with

It is clear to me from your post that this man is not making room for you in his life and therefore you are not a high priority for him.  Certainly, he is a higher priority in YOUR life than YOU are in HIS!  You need to fix that immediately by lowering his priority in your life to the SAME level as you are in his.  Meaning you guys are pals.

I even suggested a step back, but he didn't get in a good way. Actually, I'm trying to take this step back since a long time ago, but he always convinced me to keep on, talking about all the things he did to me. Last week, he had asked me for just some more weeks. But I know people don't change in weeks. i'm not even sure if people can change all except for a miracle.

I am not sure that it is simple that a woman wants to be loved.  At least it is not simple to me.  All women do not feel loved in the same way.  One woman may feel adored by what one man does and another woman may feel disrespected by that very same man doing the very same things.  Each woman must look inside herself and determine what she NEEDS from a man for her to feel loved by him.   If a man is meeting those needs, then keep the relationship progressing.  If he is not, then let the relationship stagnate or end completely.   (I will be criticized for being too analytical about that, but so be it.)

Even being a woman, thinking like a woman and being a hopelss romantic, I think you're right in your analysis. Of course, it's not that simple. Dennis Levy recently mentioned the five languages of love. I believe there are thousands of ways to show love and to understand love, to feel loved. The joy of a relationship is to get to know "the language" the other speaks and learn how to show love in a way the other will feel loved, even if it's not the way you feel like showing.

I guess I know what I need, and in this case, the only thing missing was more commitment from him, talking about a future...
 

I think InSD was somewhat harsh on you, but he is nonetheless correct.  If you were not forced to keep communicating with this man, then you bear some of the responsibility for his continued poor treatment of you.  Were you hoping that the red flags you saw would be explained away, and the two of you could live happily ever after?  That happens to everyone, men and women.   That is why, in the words of Hoda, a former poster, we need to do a "Check-up from the neck up."

I was not complaining about the treatment. I honestly posted here to check if I was being too picky. As I said, I had already decided to walk away, but at some point I was really hoping the red flags would magically be explained away. And that I know was wrong.

[braziliangirl]

Thank you for feeling comfortable enough to tell us your heartfelt experience.  My impression of you is that you are a special woman and without doubt you'll find a man that truly loves you.  This guy obviously wasn't the right man for you.  You deserve better.

Oi Samuel! Thank you for the kind words.

My advice would be to take your time and not get too emotionally involved with a man you've met through the internet until you have had an opportunity to spend time together.

It sounds great in theory and I guarantee you I tried. But I honestly don't know how to spend so much time talking to an interesting man without getting involved. Maybe it's a woman thing. Or maybe it's just immature or dumb. I hope I don't sound desperate, because I'm not. As IV said, I have a good life here and I'm not looking for someone to rescue me.

I'm curious, how you both met initially.  Was it on an introduction site similar to BrazilCupid?

It was on OKCupid. And it was probably my biggest mistake. He was not looking for a foreign wife. He was a 99% match and I visited his profile. He was impressed by my "cute picture" and "wonderful profile, being so vocal about my faith and wish to have a family" and we started talking about music. He said from the beginning he was kind of scared by the international thing. Maybe that was why he never committed. Even after he visited me and saw "I look even better in person" and we got along very well.

I tried BrazilCupid before, but I didn't find any interesting guy. They all seemed to not be looking for a serious relationship, and there were some really creepy ones.

Some of my friends are using badoo, parperfeito and livemocha. Even though the latter is not a dating site, there's a lot of flirting going on there.