helping out... the money issue

[chameleon]

I'm back home now and a girl i am seeing is in a bind. She lost her job a couple days before i left, cried about it in front of me, etc. Said she didn't know how she'd pay for last term of university etc. Her grandmother is dying and she says her family can't help her out because they're spending what money they have to make the grandmother more comfortable.



Until she gets a new job, she needs 10k a day to get back and forth from school.  I helped her out with tuition. She gave me access to her school's web account and she sent me a copy of the fee statement from the school (I requested it so that i could pay). When I helped with tuition I asked her if that was it, with the implication that i wouldn't respond well to requests to keep opening my wallet. I was helping with this one thing because if things went well with us, i didn't want her to have to abandon her studies in her last term and cause unnecessary delays.


Financially, the amount of money we are talking about is not going to hurt me, but it's more how i feel about it. On the one hand, I want to help out but on the other, I don't want a relationship defined by money and part of me wonders if it already is.


I honestly don't know what to do. It would be one thing if we were engaged or married, but we're not at this point. She is my novia, but all these troubles seem like a lot to deal with for a new relationship.

[JimD]

Until she gets a new job, she needs 10k a day to get back and forth from school.

I don´t know where she lives or if she has to take multiple buses to get to the university but in Cali the MIO bus system gets most people to their jobs and schools for $1,500 each way or $3,000 per day. If you earn the minimum salary in Colombia you are entitled to an additional subsidy of $63.600 pesos per month for transportaion (that´s for 24 work days).  10k a day would provide a nice $240.000 a month subsidy.
.
As to these girls emergency economic needs it´s a bottomless pit. I think what you should do is establish the monthly stipend you´re willing to provide and leave it to her to prioritise the endless emergencies.

[benjio]

Chameleon, please man, Stop what you're doing right now!!! Don't give her another dime. If I'm remembering correctly this is a relatively new relationship. You are setting yourself up as that financial crutch that she (and eventually her family) will always expect to help out. Next that sick grandmother is going to need some expensive medicine that will prevent her from dying. Don't let yourself believe at any moment that Colombianas are initially interested in gringos for anything other than financial stability. The relationships that happen afterwards are just side effects.

Try this logic on you girl and see what she says, because it's actually 100% true. Why waste money on her taking classes in Colombia if you're planning to marry her and bring her here? Her certificates will not mean anything in the U.S. If she wants to study, she should be studying English. Not only will that help her out here, but there are honestly better opportunities in Colombia for people that can speak our language...better than the opportunities any colombian university degree would give her.

[no comment]

If you set a pattern at this point in your relationship it certainly won't be the last crisis or emergency requiring your financial assistance.

[fathertime]

Well Cham,


I can't remember how far along you are in the relationship, but I can't imagine it being too far just yet.  Assuming that you are just barely boyfriend/girlfriend, it seems like a lot for her to ask of you.   Right now, it appears she is treating you like a cash register, if you don't mind that then continue what you are doing and just accept that this is your lot in life.   I would guess if you cut her off, she will walk on you, she may not say she is walking but she would find another person to help her out.   If she truly doesn't walk on you after you cut her money off, then maybe she is a someone to investigate further. 


All in all, I'm afraid this development is probably not a good one.   You can always go hunting again though, so if things go down in flames with her,  don't get down about it for very long.   


Good luck,
Fathertime!

[Ray]

 

I don't want a relationship defined by money and part of me wonders if it already is.

 
That is the main reason to keep money out of the equation.
 
Since you already helped her out with some funds, I would simply ignore any further requests for money.
 
Don't get angry at her, don't argue about it, be sympathetic with her plight, but either ignore her requests or politely give her some excuse why you can't help out, and see what happens from there.
 
That's the best way to find out what is really driving the relationship.
 
Ray
 
 

[Zon]

Everything that is written is true.   And, the woman - AND HER FAMILY - will likely ride the requests for help like a dog.  So lay the ground rules and do not be taken advantage of.  Otherwise, you will be seen as a weak fool.

BUI, there is another side to this equation too.   Quid pro quo.   

If you are able to help financially, and ONLY if you are able to closely monitor how those monies are being applied (almost impossible if you are living in another country), then you are able to gain a degree of control and respect from the woman and the family.   I am not suggesting hand outs!  I am noting that when a person makes investments IN GOOD PEOPLE, it is possible for an entire family to benefit.  In the process the benefactor's status in the family raises - if done right.

I admit this is rare and difficult.   But, all too often I see gringos either giving too much foolishly.  Or, being overly concerned with nickles and dimes, and not giving enough - the man always pays.  If a man is capable and successful, he pays more.

[Gato4Astrid]

Her grandmother is dying and she says her family can't help her out because they're spending what money they have to make the grandmother more comfortable.

Until she gets a new job, she needs 10k a day to get back and forth from school. I helped her out with tuition.

Financially, the amount of money we are talking about is not going to hurt me, but it's more how i feel about it. On the one hand, I want to help out but on the other, I don't want a relationship defined by money and part of me wonders if it already is.

The question is: Would any Colombianos help her with her sick abuela or to pay her with tuition?  Ever thought that she might be taking advantage of you because you are a gringo!!


10k a day with what?  Transportation?   My novia (Medellin) goes to the city centre from her barrio - from there and back for less than £3k - and it is about 30 minutes bus trip each way. 

[Researcher]

    Chameleon, get used to this kind of situation it is very common and will more than likely not be the last time this comes up.

     When I first met my wife she said her little neice lived with them.It's not uncommon but I always like to ask more questions than I answer so I asked why.My then novia said it was because the little girl's mother had cancer and her father(my wife's brother) needed a kidney transplant.My first thought was "well, here we go, let the papaya games begin". She was either telling the truth or laying the groundwork for a scam that plays out every day. To be safe I assumed the scam scenario.Then I met her brother and saw their house filled with dialisis supplies complete with machine.Then I went to visit the little girl's mother in the hospital where she was on her death bed.Everything my wife told me was true.

    I didn't feel like a bastard for not believing her.The reality is many people there will play you for money anyway they can.Just like the old saying "trust but verify" except I say don't even trust...just verify. If you want to help and you are able then do it but don't be a chump.If you want to pay for tuition then find a way to pay it directly.Don't give money directly to the girl until you get to know her better.

   Researcher

[dennislevy]

Researcher has it right.

Skip the trust step, just verify...

when a woman asks ¿ayudame?...help me with this or that....what it menas is PAY for it....When a woman asks for money to use the verb pagar......is considered crude and low class....

Thge point about her not not needing 10,000 pesos a school day for transportation is valid...there s 6000 or 7000 pesos, callit it 4.00 US that is sllush. If you tackle  it diurectly, she will probably say that you are  tacaño. 

If you ve had sexual realtions with the e novia (and Im not asking) and you have a novios  realtonship then she may feel that she is entitled to financial assitance. The stories  may be true or not...but its your job to verify.....and if they are true.. and if  you pay....then pay  whoever, the unioversity or the doctor DIRECTLY

One question...and onkly yoiu can answer it in your heart...do yo uhave genuine feelings for her......and do yo hope to see her again?

In May and June 2008, duirng my  second trip to Colombia  I had a novia in Ibague, she was 39, never married, no kids, only child, had a masters degree, lived with her mom, dad was dead... she wasnt a barrio girl......

Iwent back to Arizona to organize and pack for the move to Colombia in September.  By email,  she asked me to HELP her with her dentist bill, about 300,000 pesos then it was 150 bucks....

I asked her for the telephione number and the name of the dentist....She was insulted and asked me...dont you trsut me?    I countered with.....do you want me to help you with the dentist bill or do you want money? They are two very different things.

She broke up with me in the next email or two .....I saved 150 bucks and she married a Colombian man in November 2010....

[chameleon]

Pretty much what I expected as responses. 


The 10k/day seemed kinda reasonable to me because the shortest taxi i could take was about 5k, but she is living in a town that's on the far side of soledad right now (sabanagrande) and her school is on the northern side of barranquilla, so it's quite a distance and not just one bus. I know buses are cheaper than taxis, but i didn't take any so i'm not sure how much cheaper. It takes her  ~1.5+ hrs to get home, or so she says, but that seems to line up with how long i feel it would take on public transport based on a taxi trip i took to the south of barranquilla.


For the tuition, i did verify with the school because all the previous postings on the board had made me wary of scams. I know that her degree is useless up here but she's worked hard on it and that it was the last term, so i could understand why she was upset. And it's not like i've promised to marry her at this point so she's got no guarantee that blowing off school for english classes, as suggested by one person, is the right call. Would most people even be aware of how much english can help? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm curious.


And yes, this is new, which is why i don't like it. The trust isn't really there yet, even though the amounts are insignificant to me.


I knew her for 3 weeks in colombia. I'd never subsidize a gf up here because people up here are much more likely to have family or other options to get over short-term financial troubles. If a girl up here really needed it and had no other options, I probably would help though (assuming i'd already judged her to be a hard-working person and that she was just suffering from some bad luck).


Could it all be an elaborate scam? Perhaps, but she'd be burning herself at the agency and ruining her chances for a much better life. And she was actually crying about this stuff in front of me the last time i took a hard line with her over something.


Zon's post is the angle i was approaching it from. I don't want to be an ATM, but 10k/day is nothing to me and if she really does have no other way to pay for it right now, it would seem [snip]ty not to help... But the requests are starting to pile up and overall, I'm feeling FT is probably right.  I won't lose any sleep over it if she doesn't maintain interest after I say no.

[Gato4Astrid]

    My first thought was "well, here we go, let the papaya games begin". She was either telling the truth or laying the groundwork for a scam that plays out every day. To be safe I assumed the scam scenario.Then I met her brother and saw their house filled with dialisis supplies complete with machine.Then I went to visit the little girl's mother in the hospital where she was on her death bed.Everything my wife told me was true.

Blame it on many of other women - making you think she was one of them!!  It wasn't your fault, but glad you did not give up on your wife!

[Gato4Astrid]

In May and June 2008, duirng my  second trip to Colombia  I had a novia in Ibague, she was 39, never married, no kids, only child, had a masters degree, lived with her mom, dad was dead... she wasnt a barrio girl......

Iwent back to Arizona to organize and pack for the move to Colombia in September.  By email,  she asked me to HELP her with her dentist bill, about 300,000 pesos then it was 150 bucks....

I asked her for the telephione number and the name of the dentist....She was insulted and asked me...dont you trsut me?    I countered with.....do you want me to help you with the dentist bill or do you want money? They are two very different things.

I did smiliar.  My ex-novia from Cali (Yumbo) had asked me for money $700,000 to pay for English classes, and I asked for the name and address for the school so I could pay directly.... and like what you mentioned about your letter.   I saved myself $700,000 !!!

[Gato4Astrid]

Why waste money on her taking classes in Colombia if you're planning to marry her and bring her here? Her certificates will not mean anything in the U.S. If she wants to study, she should be studying English. Not only will that help her out here, but there are honestly better opportunities in Colombia for people that can speak our language...better than the opportunities any colombian university degree would give her.

It is not only about wasting time.  It is also about gaining confidence and experience.    Therefore she really needs to finish her classes first even if her degree is useless in USA.  It will still show up better CV than without it

[Gato4Astrid]

Zon's post is the angle i was approaching it from. I don't want to be an ATM, but 10k/day is nothing to me and if she really does have no other way to pay for it right now, it would seem [snip]ty not to help... But the requests are starting to pile up and overall, I'm feeling FT is probably right.  I won't lose any sleep over it if she doesn't maintain interest after I say no.

It is not about money, it is about principles. 

[Alabamaboy!]

The 10k/day seemed kinda reasonable to me because the shortest taxi i could take was about 5k, but she is living in a town that's on the far side of soledad right now (sabanagrande) and her school is on the northern side of barranquilla, so it's quite a distance and not just one bus. I know buses are cheaper than taxis, but i didn't take any so i'm not sure how much cheaper. It takes her  ~1.5+ hrs to get home, or so she says, but that seems to line up with how long i feel it would take on public transport based on a taxi trip i took to the south of barranquilla.

I am in BAQ right now and taxi´s to my wife´s barrio in Soledad are running between 10-12K COP one way, and that is if you can even get anyone to take you there. The taxi drivers do not even want to go there. I went to Barrio Hippodromo near Villa Mudi or something like that last night and the cost was 15K COP...and that is the Colombian price. And again we had to beg to get someone to take us there. I think the buses cost about 1.5K each way so if it is multiple buses, it may be around 6-9K COP.

[Traveler]

Dude, I guess I will be in a minority, but what she is asking is comparatively little.  If you can afford it and feel like helping her, just be generous and think of it as a good dead.  Don't ask for receipts or verifications.  Don't do it because you are expecting quid pro quo from her as a result.  Just do it to feel good that you have helped a person you care about.  If you don't feel like being generous in this case, your relationship with the girl will probably end, because any Colombiano genuinely interested in her and with the means to help her, would.  Who knows, maybe this request is genuine, maybe she is testing you to see if you are a bobo, maybe she wants money to buy a really nice outfit.  Who knows?  You know the girl better than any of us.  Also, any protracted vascillation on your part will really count against you, whether you finally agree to the request or not.
 
Just be aware that if you do help her financially this time, other requests might to follow.  That's how this works, at least in Latin America.  Obviously, such a relationship requires a huge degree of trust, and one of the reasons most guys here advise to spend as much time as possible to get to know a girl is frankly to develop the sense of trust between the two of you.  If you cannot stand an idea of a woman expecting financial support from you, do not date women in Colombia or Latin America.

[benjio]

For the tuition, i did verify with the school because all the previous postings on the board had made me wary of scams. I know that her degree is useless up here but she's worked hard on it and that it was the last term, so i could understand why she was upset. And it's not like i've promised to marry her at this point so she's got no guarantee that blowing off school for english classes, as suggested by one person, is the right call. Would most people even be aware of how much english can help? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm curious.

The answer to your question is no. Most Costenas have no idea that the ability to speak English fluently is actually a much more valuble commodity in the Colombian job market...especially along the coast.
 
One of the many examples is between a Lead Flight Attendant and an Elementary School teacher with a Master's Degree in Primary Education from the Universidad Del Norte. I know both of these girls personally. The Lead Flight Attendant I know works for Avianca...primarily on the Miami to Barranquilla route when she chooses to fly. I'm 100% sure some of you have probably ran across this girl. Anyway, she was born in Colombia, but studied in Miami from elementary to middle school, returning to Colombia when she was 14 years old (By the way, she has told me what she studied in 7th grade in Miami was suprisingly the same lessons she was studying her last year in high school in Barranquilla). While she was in the United States she obviously learned English fluently. At 19 years of age, this landed her a job with Avianca in Colombia. She was initially working at the check in desk at the airport in Barranquilla. After 5 years she now manages all Avianca Flight Attendants working in Atlantico. Her salary is $2.5 Million COP a month...which may not seem like much by American Standards, but is excellent for the average Costena.
 
The school teacher on the hand only earns $1 Million COP a month. After 6 1/2 years of studying constantly at UniNorte, that was the best position she could find at Marymount in Barranquilla. Marymount is one of the more prestigious colegios in Atlantico. I met her while trying to get a job there teaching English. Another amazing side note is to teach English at 95% of the universities in Colombia, you have to be a native speaker and have a university degree from the United States, England or Australia. You can get an advanced Instruction of English Degree at UniNorte, but even they won't honor it when it comes down to a Colombian getting a job. That's right....at some levels, Colombia doesn't even respect its own degrees!!!
 
This is far from an isolated instance. A job as a translator at Jamie's Agency for another example pays considerably more than minimum wage. I've met a female "lawyer" in Barranquilla that earned less than Jamie pays his girls. The crazy thing about girls with degrees in Barranquilla is almost every single one I know outside of those that go into medicine or education, do absolutely nothing once they're finished studying. They usually still can't find a job and end up being the very housewives and mothers they were trying to avoid becoming. It makes absolutely no sense but it's the Constena way.
 
This obviously does not apply to Colombian Men...entirely different ball game.

[fathertime]

Zon's post is the angle i was approaching it from. I don't want to be an ATM, but 10k/day is nothing to me and if she really does have no other way to pay for it right now, it would seem [snip]ty not to help... But the requests are starting to pile up and overall, I'm feeling FT is probably right.  I won't lose any sleep over it if she doesn't maintain interest after I say no.

Well Cham, it sounds like you are going to say 'no' at some point soon.  It is really your call obviously, but don't let yourself feel any pressure to say 'no' if you are REALLY feeling this gal is a keeper in all the other categories.   You can also consider biting the bullet for a little while, if you are going to see her again soon.  Now if you aren't going to see her for 7 months then that is a long time to bite on the bullet.  When do you plan on revisiting her or Colombia in general?


Fathertime! 

[mudd]

Everything that is written is true.   And, the woman - AND HER FAMILY - will likely ride the requests for help like a dog.  So lay the ground rules and do not be taken advantage of.  Otherwise, you will be seen as a weak fool

.


good point, once these   girls and family know your a pushover with a lose wallet, the " handouts" start flowing. 1st will be little things like books for  school, electricity payment for the house, internet, phone,  , then will move on to bigger things, clothes, new phones, tv ect.  as we say " trust but verifi"

[opusone]

Financially, the amount of money we are talking about is not going to hurt me, but it's more how i feel about it. On the one hand, I want to help out but on the other, I don't want a relationship defined by money and part of me wonders if it already is.


I honestly don't know what to do. It would be one thing if we were engaged or married, but we're not at this point. She is my novia, but all these troubles seem like a lot to deal with for a new relationship.

Well, sorry to say this, , but you created this problem. I am not judging you , but usually, when you start out , by paying out, for you  it  will become more of "what am I getting back" as opposed to , "I do this because we have plans to get married very shortly"(which should be the case).I would have laid some ground rules down since she probably has no idea what fiscal responsibility means. This is a classic example of what not to do just because you have a novia. Novias come a dime a dozen in Latin America , but you can't expect them to understand all things outside of what they know. 


It's not as if she can't finish school at some other time. We do it here in the States all the time. A lot of us have worked two jobs ,  work at places we didn't want to work, live on meager eager earnings,  and plan to study another day. Think of it this way, what would she have done if you were not there? What would the family have done if you were not there?  All of a sudden you are Captain save-a .....?(novia) lol. You don't get into relationships to be a repairman or the "family maintenance man" , now do you? Follow your instincts and figure out if being an "ATM" for now is worth it,because the other shoe that will drop once you stop helping is, "you are a no good, cheap, selfish gringo. Guilt is unforgiving.

[Zon]

I don't know ..."Well, sorry to say this, , but you created this problem. I am not judging you , but usually, when you start out , by paying out, for you it  will become more of "what am I getting back" as opposed to , "I do this because we have plans to get married very shortly" 

I think the REAL solution is to try to see the situation from the Colombian perspective, not the American.   

We may as well all be Donald Trump to the garden variety Colombian.    We ought to be generous, because we are wealthy.  But, are you a push over.  Are you a fool.  Are you are target  Are you being played?  These are the questions.    For me, I found the answer is the way I GIVE AND HELP WITH MONEY.   I demonstrate a willingness and ability to be kind.  For example, I may see some children begging in the street while having a beer, or dinner with a woman, and I will negotiate a take out tray of food for the street people, given by the restaurant owner, NOT me.     If I am having a very good time with a woman, I almost always buy her a gift at some point in the day.  It could be as little as 5 - 25 dollars.   I joke and say if we become couple, never tell your family that I am a gringo, otherwise they will make it hard on you - and we will have to move to Venezuela.   

The key is to (and I know this is opposite in AM and as we are raised to be "gentleman") HAVE STRINGS ATTACHED TO EVERY ACT of generosity until real trust can be verified or created - and that takes years, not weeks.

[opusone]

I think the REAL solution is to try to see the situation from the Colombian perspective, not the American.   

Having empathy is one thing, giving into  demands/requests, when there is no guarantee of anything, is another.

[JWR]

Money in a new relationship is just like poison.  It kills the relationship dead in most cases, and in the other cases it make it sick.\
Last year I was in BQ for 4 months and had a relationship with a girl with a 4 yo child.  It was a really nice relationship until the asking for money started.  1st her phone got damaged by the little girl and she couldn't text me anymore.  So I bought her a new phone.  Of course I rolled over for a nice phone for her, and I was using a 30.00 phone....  Then her "commissions" didn't get paid at work on time, and she needed to pay the for the day care for her little girl.  She needed to "borrow" the money just until the end of the month when the commissions got paid.  Of course the end of the month came and went, and there was no mention of the loan.  I didn't care much about the money, but it was her integrity that I was evaluating.  I really was falling for this girl, but this damaged my view of her.
Also one time she had some of her friends over for a Sunday gathering at my apt, and I became pretty ill as the afternoon went on.  As I retired to the bedroom very sick, the party raged on, and she really showed little concern for me, and the noise they were making.  Not a good sign....
Then later in the evening, the little girl threw a temper tantrum, and she lost her temper and spanked the kid in a way that I found disturbing.  Strike 3.
She still comes on YM now, and tells me how much she misses me, and wants me to come back to BQ to marry her.  Jamie told me what was up.  He yanked her off the site.
When you are falling for one of these girls, good judgement often goes out the window.  It's just hard to think streight when there is alot of chemistry.  So we do dumb things that we look back on  and think, "I can't believe I did that"  It really is intoxication.
Recently a girl I was chatting with asked me to buy a coffin for her dead sister that just happened to die while we were chatting.....nice try.
 
 

[Kiltboy1]

Money in a new relationship is just like poison.  It kills the relationship dead in most cases, and in the other cases it make it sick.\
Last year I was in BQ for 4 months and had a relationship with a girl with a 4 yo child.  It was a really nice relationship until the asking for money started.  1st her phone got damaged by the little girl and she couldn't text me anymore.  So I bought her a new phone.  Of course I rolled over for a nice phone for her, and I was using a 30.00 phone....  Then her "commissions" didn't get paid at work on time, and she needed to pay the for the day care for her little girl.  She needed to "borrow" the money just until the end of the month when the commissions got paid.  Of course the end of the month came and went, and there was no mention of the loan.  I didn't care much about the money, but it was her integrity that I was evaluating.  I really was falling for this girl, but this damaged my view of her.
Also one time she had some of her friends over for a Sunday gathering at my apt, and I became pretty ill as the afternoon went on.  As I retired to the bedroom very sick, the party raged on, and she really showed little concern for me, and the noise they were making.  Not a good sign....
Then later in the evening, the little girl threw a temper tantrum, and she lost her temper and spanked the kid in a way that I found disturbing.  Strike 3.
She still comes on YM now, and tells me how much she misses me, and wants me to come back to BQ to marry her.  Jamie told me what was up.  He yanked her off the site.
When you are falling for one of these girls, good judgement often goes out the window.  It's just hard to think streight when there is alot of chemistry.  So we do dumb things that we look back on  and think, "I can't believe I did that"  It really is intoxication.
Recently a girl I was chatting with asked me to buy a coffin for her dead sister that just happened to die while we were chatting.....nice try.

 
How True
 
  LMFAO !!!!!!!!!
 
KB