Spoiling your woman

[jm21-2]

Being "spoiled" seems a bit more complicated to me. Sometimes I think my wife is a bit spoiled, other times not at all. She stays at home and doesn't really have an intention of working in the foreseeable future, which seems spoiled (at least, until if/when we have children). I would love to not have to work. On the other hand, she needs a new laptop and if I bought her a middle-of-the-road model as a surprise she'd make me take it back to the store and buy a cheaper one (if any at all). That doesn't seem very spoiled. I suppose as long as people strike a balance and know what they're getting into it's fair.

[dennislevy]

I m not sure who wrote it, but someone has a theory of the six languges of love...and giving or buying  things for another person  is one of those six languages.

Spoiling a person falls into an excessive demonstation of that language. Buying and giving things to a woman  (from my point of view) should be based on time involved with eachj other and level of comittment

Let mer offer this  example.....

In May, 209 (when I had lived full time in Colombia for 8 months) I asked a beautiful 39 woman to live with me,  I had met her in a Bogota agency It was my first REAL attempt to  make a relatonship concrete ....... We had been going out for not a very long time, maybe 6 weeks...she spent weekends with me at my apartment in midtown Bogota,

I told that that I would rent an apartment in a estrato 4 or 5 neighborhood in Bogota and furnish it,  sign a lease, pay all expenses, if she wantred, I would pay all the rent up front (to allay her fears that she would get stuck)  and if we were stiill happy in 6 months....we would get maried and then look for an apartment to buy

Remember, I was still in the wife hunting stage!

She countered with...wonderful of course, I want to live with you, but I want you to BUY an apartment  FOR US.... NOW!!!

 She would spend 2,000,00 for some furniture,  say a thousand bucks but wanted something for 100,00,000 pesos . at least 55,000 US at todays rate.

I ll admit, I thought about it...if I bought it  would she have stayed in the relaitonship? Or would I have spoiled her.?

From her point of view ,she wanted out of Bosa, (a huge district of poor estrato 2 neighborhoods in South Bogota), she was educated, taught high school English,  but was still living in her mothers aprtment..

She was being  generous, by offering to buy and bring furniture into the realtionship....that s unsual in Colombia  And I will aso add  that for my birthday in May, she bought me a leather car coat, a wonderful present that I still wear... And I had bought her a silk blouse and also some pure silver jewelry.

From my  point of view, making that big a financial comittment that soon was crazy..I was attracted to her. loved her compay, passionate sex, yada yadda and told her that I loved her........

but to buy a HOME  ...and that fast?

From her poimnt of view she had given me everything she could...the coat...her time, had introdced me to her family.....she had given me her body,........told me that she loved me.....

so why not the apartment?

I said no to the house........she woud not look at rentals with me and we broke  up about  6 weeks after that. She went on to join two more marriage agencies in Bogota.....and even at 41 she is a knockout and has no children. 

Her shopping list had been American or European men...40 to 60.

Three days ago,, I saw that she had put up a new profile on the Internet .   she had reduced her age to the mid 30s.........and is seeking  a serious relationship wth a Colombian man (NO FOREIGNERS!!!!!!!! ) from mid 30s to 50, and listed her place of residence as the town in which she teaches high school.

Did I make the right decision not to buy the aoartment?  In retrospect, I think so.....it was just too extreme an increment too quickly.

And I define spoiling a woman as giving her something too fast. to show that he loves her or he wants her......when a man does that, he is trying to buy a womans love.....and I odnt think that doesnt last.....

I don t think we were right for each other......but of all all the women I met in Colombia.....she is one of the few in which the memories have stayed with me....

[opusone]

I m not sure who wrote it, but someone has a theory of the six languges of love...and giving or buying  things for another person  is one of those six languages.

Spoiling a person falls into an excessive demonstation of that language. Buying and giving things to a woman  (from my point of view) should be based on time involved with eachj other and levle of comittment

Let mer offer this  example.....

In May, 209 (when I had lived full time in Colombia for 8 months) I asked a beautiful 39 woman to live with me,  I had met her in a Bogota agency It was my first REAL attempt to  make a relatonship concrete ....... We had been going out for not a very long time, maybe 6 weeks...she spent weeknds with me at my apartment in midtown Bogota,

I told that that I would rent an apartment in a strato 4 or 5 neighborhood in Bogota and furnish it,  sign a lease, pay all expenses, if she wantred, I would pay all the rent up front (to allay her fears that she would get stuck)  and if we were stiill happy in 6 months....we would get maried and then look for an aprtment to buy

Remember, I was still in the wife hunting stage!

She countered with...wonderful of ocurse, want to live with you, but I want you to BUY an apartment  FOR US.... NOW!!!

 She would spend 2,000,00 for some furniture,  say a thousand bucks but wanted something for 100,00,000 pesos . at least 55,000 US at todays rate.

I ll admit, I thought about it...if I bought  would she have stayed in the relaitonship? Or would I have spoiled her.?

From her point of view ,she wanted out of Bosa, (a huge district of poor estrato 2 neighborhoods in South Bogota), she was educated, taught high school English,  but was still living in her mothers aprtment..

She was being  generous, by offering to buy and bring furniture into the realtionship....that s unsual in Colombia  And I will aso add  that for my birthday in May, she bought me a leather car coat, a wonderful present that I still wear... And I had bought her a silk blouse and also some pure silver jewelry.

From my  point of view, making that big a financial comittment that soon was crazy..I was attracted to her. loved her compay, passionate sex, yada yadda and told her that I loved her........

but to buy a HOME  ...and that fast?

From her poimnt of view she had given me everything she could...the coat...her time, had introdced me to her family.....she had given me her body,........told me that she loved me.....

so why not the apartment?

I said no to the hosue.........she woud not look at rentals with me and we broke  up about  6 weeks after that. She went on to join two more marriage agencies in Bogota.....and even at 41 she is a knockout and has no children. 

Her shopping list had been American or European men...40 to 60.

Three days ago,, I saw that she had put up a new profile on the Internet .   she had reduced her age to the mid 30s.........and is seeking  a serious relationship wth a Colombian man (NO FOREIGNERS!!!!!!!! ) from mid 30s to 50, and lsitd   her place of residence as the town in which she teaches high school.

Did I make the right decision not to buy the aoartment?  In retrospect, I think so.....it was just too extreme an incrementtoo quickly.

And I define spoiling a woman as giving her somthing too fast. to show that he loves her or he wants her......when a man does that, he is trying to buy a womans love.....and I odnt think that doesnt last.....

I don t think we were right for each other......but of all all the women I ve met in Colombia.....she is one of the few in which the memories ahve  stayed with me....

D.L.


In your honest opinion , do you think she was already spoiled when you met her, or did you create the monster?I read this post several times, but I don't want to jump to any conclusions.

[Traveler]

I would not describe the woman in Bogota as spoiled, just intensa.  And many women in Colombia fit that description.  They want to escalate a relationship VERY quickly.  If a woman like that went out with you once, she wants you as her exclusive bf, even if she hasn't slept with you.  And if you hesitate, she gets upset.  This degree of neediness in fact a somewhat common behavior in Colombia based on my experience, and quite an opposite of a normal behavior for an AW.
 
Investing in a home together, especially nothing ostentatious, and especially if she is willing to contribute her share, is NOT being spoiled, but actually quite normal, but IMHO not after 6 weeks of dating.  But again what's "normal" to us is based on American sensibilities.

[InnocentVixen]

Then I_V there is no easy way to translate 'spoiled' in the negative sense that we Anglo males use that can be applied in español. Is this what you are saying?

There must be but that is what is generally used as translation, thinking more about it, perhaps "malcriada" would be closer to it? it literally means the woman was raised badly and results in a bratty rude demanding kind of behavior... still wondering about the real equivalent of mimar is in english.

And I define spoiling a woman as giving her somthing too fast. to show that he loves her or he wants her......when a man does that, he is trying to buy a womans love.....and I odnt think that doesnt last.....

I've come across with men like this, not only you run the risk of spoiling a woman, which is easily done if the girl is immature or just plain greedy... but you run the risk of scaring her off if she is not this way, sometimes guys get so excited that they get a bit pushy and just want to rush things, I've learned that being patient is not always the best, but no need to go to extremes you know? give your girl flowers and call her everyday, pay the bill when you go out with her, that should do it until the time comes for a ring.

[Bob_S]

To graciously refuse, yet express appreciation for ones generosity is rather the exception, than the rule.

The exception?  Really?  Good Gawd, man, what kind of women are you hanging around?   

...I'm not sure whether or not a woman who is grown, or an adult, would have much impact on her decision to be "spoiled'.

She may be grown, but if she is spoiled, she is most definitely not a mature adult.  IMHO, that is a tautology.

There must be but that is what is generally used as translation, thinking more about it, perhaps "malcriada" would be closer to it? it literally means the woman was raised badly and results in a bratty rude demanding kind of behavior... still wondering about the real equivalent of mimar is in english.

That's it.  Bratty, rude, demanding.  I might add, an arrogant sense of entitlement.  A man may want to spoil his woman, that is a good thing, but if she becomes spoiled because of it (or shall we say, it illuminates that side of her character that was always there), that is a bad thing.

[opusone]

I think the key here is whether or nor you have someone that was already spoiled , or, you are the one spoiling her now. In the case where you are in a relationship with a person who is "spoiled" prior to you entering into a relationship with her, timing is the key to everything. If you don't recognize how to use time to your advantage, then there may be no way for her to appreciate the simpler things you may want to do for her ,and with her.. Spoiling her, very early on in a relationship, gives an opening to tantrums, and misguided fantasies about what real life is about. This rarely, if ever, entices anyone to modify or control the habit of being spoiled. This also goes to who is who in the relationship, and the setting of boundaries very early on. I don't think this would define you as a dictator, but it means that they are some ground rules that need to be established very early on ,especially when dealing with a "princess'. It's not as if you don't know what you are dealing with.


In the case where you are now the one spoiling her now, (she's new to all of this), moderation is paramount.I don't know of one woman who doesn't appreciate the finer things in life. However,a healthy relationship probably wouldn't be able to withstand the test of time, if that's what she thinks it will be forever. I don't mind spoiling a woman but there is a fine line between spoiling her with occasional things, be it gifts, trips, high end clothing, jewelry, etc., (things the average person wouldn't or couldn't do for her) , and you creating this facade in her head that you can,and always , will do it.


Lastly, if you do intend on spoiling her, her reaction or intensity to you, hereafter, (not to the material things) should not have increased. Conversely, if it diminishes because you decided against spoiling her with something , then you should really know what you are worth in her eyes.

[pablito]

It's nothing complicated really, any behaviour you encourage simply engenders more of that behaviour.  If asking for things results in you buying them, they'll keep asking.  If you say no the first time but yes the second, congratulations, you've just taught them to ask you twice, if you say no five times but yes the sixth they'll ask six times.  If you say yes because you're being yelled at, you just taught them yelling works.  Expect more of it.  What do you do?  Say what you mean and mean what you say.  If you're asked and you say yes, you do it, if you're asked and you say no you don't, no matter what. 


So stop and think before you answer, because if you know you're probably going to give in anyways, just say yes the first time, you'll avoid a hassle for the both of you and you won't be teaching anyone that all they have to do is push the right buttons to get you to agree.

[whitey]

There must be but that is what is generally used as translation, thinking more about it, perhaps "malcriada" would be closer to it? it literally means the woman was raised badly and results in a bratty rude demanding kind of behavior... still wondering about the real equivalent of mimar is in english.

IV, perhaps "pampered" may an appropriate translation for mimar.  It has a similar meaning, but doesn't carry quite the same negative connotations.

For me, "spoiled" has a very negative connotation.  When used as a verb, to me it means providing un-necessary, excessive, or extravagant gifts (although I know not everyone thinks of it exactly the same way).

I don't want to spoil someone, nor do I want to be spoiled.  For me a better word is "cherish".

Definition: To treat with affection and tenderness; to hold dear

In a similar vein, although I love the affectionate latin culture and language, one of the things I don't like is couples calling each other "mi rey/reina" or "mi princesa/principe".  For me this just has the connotation that someone is superior and merits special attention, based only on birthright.  But maybe that's just me ... hahaha.

[whitey]

.

[beginthebeguin]

Ok now. Has anyone experienced the opposite of what we are talking about. Anyone out there with a Petruchio complex or knows of a guy who has one (for those who aren't familiar: main male character from Shakespear's 'The Taming of the Shrew')? You know, where the 'malcriada' female really starts to come around to the guy's way of  thinking as to how she should conduct herself, especially in public and in everyday life. 
I figure some of the regulars here would like to strike a balance between being Petruchio from Shakespeare and Casper Milquetoast. Personally after 25 years of a bad marriage I am now leaning toward  trying the 'Petruchio approach'   

[whitey]

Seems pretty fantastical.

I couldn't imagine being with a woman I wanted or needed to change that much, or having any respect for her if I could.

Isn't it the women who always want to change the men?  We usually don't want the women to change ...

[michaelb]

Seems pretty fantastical.

I couldn't imagine being with a woman I wanted or needed to change that much, or having any respect for her if I could.

Isn't it the women who always want to change the men?  We usually don't want the women to change ...

Have you never heard the saying "Women marry men thinking they will change. They don't. Men marry women thinking they won't change. They do."

[Traveler]

Well, what I will say might be controversial, and many guys might not like it.  I am not a sociologist, just presenting my humble opinion based on my life experience and observations.
 
First of all, even though there are individual personality traits, women's behavior is usually influenced by the male.  There are no "spoiled" women in a sense that this quality is demonstrated by some women only with some men, not all.  The same woman can easily be a spoiled b*tch with one guy and a completely altruistic angel with another, AT THE SAME TIME.  In fact, there are women who get with rich guys because the guy they actually love is poor, and the money they get from the rich guy they pass on to the poor guy they are in love with.  (Well, at least it does happen often enough in 3rd world countries.)
 
Secondly, the "spoiled" women typically are accustomed to the guys buying them things, either because those guys believe that doing this is a required part of the courting behavior, or - more often than not - because they are trying to manipulate a woman into sleeping with them and/ or having a relationship with them, whether "spoiling" is the guy's idea or just him following her orders.  What's the worst thing that will happen if you say 'No'?  She will get pissed and will refuse to sleep with you.  Or she will get real pissed and leave you, and all your prior investment of time and money will be wasted. 
 
In fact, most men in the US based on my observation, are predisposed to act this way to a greater or lesser extent.  If such a woman were to recognize a guy as trying to "court" her, or to manipulate her into being with him - and women are very good at reading the guy's true intentions - they will respond by acting "spoiled" and demanding the guy to buy them things.  If however they run into a guy who presents himself as a challenge, as in he doesn't need to manipulate women (whether he is doing it consciously or subconsiously) into sleeping with him by buying them stuff or bribing them otherwise, they will NOT act as a spoiled brat; in fact, quite on the contrary.  Granted, it's not easy to do, especially if the woman in question is hot and desirable, and you are a foreigner who is coming for a short stint with a mindset that you must marry somebody ASAP.
 
Many of those desirable women, especially in South America, IMHO typically like macho males because they don't like men who are too easy, and they know that macho guys will not try to manipulate them.  They might say that they hate macho males, and they do hate their negative qualities, but they love the positives.  And macho males do not court women because they a) are not looking for her approval and b) if a woman refuses sex with them, they have other options (or at least they let the woman believe that they do).  So, if you want a hot desirable woman in Colombia, either try to attain the good qualities of macho males, or stay away from those women and settle for women who are either less desirable based on their looks and age, or whose socialization was somehow repressed and thus limited.
 
Most Latin women I have spoken to believe that American men are very cheap because typical Colombian guys are generous with women in general and their girlfriend in particular.  I have seen many times for example when a woman goes with her girlfriends and the guy - a husband or a bf of one them - takes care of the entire group - a situation that would make many American men cringe.  The difference is that you can spend money out of being generous - which is a macho alpha behavior, or you can spend money in order to manipulate the woman involved - which is the direct opposite, and the women can acutely sense the difference.
 
The reason for this whole treatise is that I have come to realization that the only way to genuinely attract a desirable woman in Latin America is to express the good qualities of a macho alpha man, which does include being generous.  But the key is to pull it off as genuine generosity, rather than trying to manipulate her, or just grudgingly following her orders of buy me this, buy me that.  Remember, that this is her culture where she was socialized.  When Latin women say they are tired of machos, or that they don't like machos, they say that they just don't want the negative macho traits.  Again, there are exceptions to what I described, as in every rule.  YMMV.

[Micky]

Traveler -

Some guys may argue part of your post,  but I think there is MUCH truth in what you say.  Latin women, by and large,  do want/expect a man to -  make the decisions,  lead the way,  not to wavier,  pay for all, take care of the responsibilities.  Wuss is OUT.  Allthough I do not think that anyone should try and be someone who they are not,  just be the "strong"  you.
Also agree with the "spoiling"  thing.  My view is that a man is 100% responsible for a lot,  a little or no "spoiling".  I think that the crux of the thread is really the question of "how much" is more/less normal or in bounds,  if you will.  Any EXTRA consideration shown to the wife/gf,  if it is not appreciated,  is too much.  The problem is when the "spoiling" or extra consideration is come to be expected by the women, when her attitude becomes one of entitlement.
Another point in your post that is also right on,  the men that use money to make up or cover their shortcomings,  whether that be looks,  age,  social skills,  women skills,  fat,  bald,  whatever,  those that roll like that are living in a fool's paradice.
The money issue,  when it comes to gringos,  is a slippery slope.  The consensus here is that gringos tend to be cheap.  I find that a little confusing,  as you have the gringos that "throw" money around in order to be "the man"  or whatever is their purpose in doing so.  I think that many though have the mentality that "they think all gringos are rich and will try to bend me over,  I will not let that happen",  which is understandable. I do think that that attitude makes gringos look like they "care" way too much about money.  There is a balance that has to be found and it is not that easy.  The only thing I can tell anyone,  in that regard,  is good luck.
I have not met that many gringos that live here,  maybe three,  in four years.  Two of them were the same way,  50 plus and 60 plus,  both had a few  "six months - year"  relationships,  both with 20 something years old.  They pay for everything (sometimes including "family" crap")  and eventually the girls bail. These guys go and do the SAME thing.  Other than,  what I consider,  odd/stupid behavior with women, they did not seem like bad guys or idiots.  I just do not understand.  It is like women that stay in an abusive relationship,  that they can leave but choose to stay in,  somethings I just do not get.
Anyway,  I think that was a very good post.

Micky

[fathertime]

I'm trying to find something objectionable in your Treatise Traveler but I  kinda liked it!


I highlighted the one thing I thought could be clarified or thought of in a slightly different way:

The reason for this whole treatise is that I have come to realization that the only way to genuinely attract a desirable woman in Latin America is to express the good qualities of a macho alpha man, which does include being generous.  But the key is to pull it off as genuine generosity, rather than trying to manipulate her, or just grudgingly following her orders of buy me this, buy me that.  Remember, that this is her culture where she was socialized.  When Latin women say they are tired of machos, or that they don't like machos, they say that they just don't want the negative macho traits.  Again, there are exceptions to what I described, as in every rule.  YMMV.

 



Saying 'pulling it off' sounds more like "faking it until you are making" which is good for starters, but my feeling is that it shouldn't be about pulling it off, it should be more like JUST BEING THAT PERSON.  If it doesn't come naturally, try to change that aspect of yourself. While courting a woman, I don't see penny pinching as being very flattering.    Frankly I enjoyed being generous (Within reason), it just seemed natural.  So what if dinner cost say 30K pesos rather than 20K pesos? in the whole scheme it is a very small amount.   Now in marriage, a couple has to understand value and cost/benefit of spending on one item rather than another, so the ability to switch gears in financial thinking is important too!  I'd say it is the man's job to drive these points home if the spouse needs some guidance in that area.  I guess I've been lucky, my wife is very sensible with money.   


Fathertime! 


I think your post could be VERY helpful in changing mindsets, in a positive way for some men who could get though reading the whole thing!

[Researcher]

I've come across with men like this, not only you run the risk of spoiling a woman, which is easily done if the girl is immature or just plain greedy... but you run the risk of scaring her off if she is not this way, sometimes guys get so excited that they get a bit pushy and just want to rush things, I've learned that being patient is not always the best, but no need to go to extremes you know? give your girl flowers and call her everyday, pay the bill when you go out with her, that should do it until the time comes for a ring.

      IV, excellent point and pretty much everything in a nut shell! This "spoiling women" thing goes hand in hand with being too much of a nice guy.If a woman loses respect for you that's pretty much it, whether it has to do with material things or not.

        Researcher

[Brazilophile]

There must be but that is what is generally used as translation, thinking more about it, perhaps "malcriada" would be closer to it? it literally means the woman was raised badly and results in a bratty rude demanding kind of behavior... still wondering about the real equivalent of mimar is in english.

My Spanish-English dictionary gives the translation of 'mimar' as to spoil or to pamper.  Whitey gave a pretty good definition of 'to spoil'.  Pampering has the very same behaviors as spoiling but with a positive connotation instead of a negative one.   

In my opinion, the difference between 'spoil' and 'pamper' is in the eye of the beholder.  If the beholder feels the object deserves the attention, it is pampering.  If the beholder feels the object does NOT deserve the attention, it is spoiling.

[Traveler]

FT,
 
By "pulling it off" I didn't mean faking it, but adjusting one's attitude, as many aspects of this type of behavior is not normal or expected (or even welcomed by AW) for people dating in the US.

[InnocentVixen]

Ah! mystery solved, mimar is something between cherish and pamper! I think it's a lot clearer now, thanks


On a side note, I know most of you guys focus in Colombia and many things of latin culture apply everywhere in latin america... but I must say the biggest difference between Colombia and Mexico seems to be that there is a lot of machismo in both countries, but over here Men DO chase women, in fact most men will think that if they don't have to chase the women is not worth it, and to my dismay if the woman really is not interested they can take it as a challenge and it gets borderline scary (well for me anyways).


That is probably why you guys don't get the rock start treatment over here, if women are interested they will not throw their panties at you, sorry haha, we are just more old fashioned I guess, we do have some wild ones don't get me wrong, they are just not the rule.


It's a relief men from other countries seem to respect a woman's wish, but they do seem to give up a little too fast sometimes, when I started my search I am sure some guys thought I was not interested when I was, I am now less shy in showing my interest but I would not go as far as chasing a man, that would be too weird for me, hopefully I'll find someone willing to meet in the middle.

[dennislevy]

In the thread, I posted a personal examplke of an ex novia in Bogota. After reading Travelers commentary l reaized that he had nailed it, she wasnt so much spoiled,  maybe intensa and from my American  point iof view, unwilling to go fo from step to step. She later told me that I had disappointed her because  she had loved me and though that I had loved her (which i said, i did), I should have bought the aparment to prove my love....
 
I think some of her wiring was jagged, she had mood swings, she lied about the usual stuff.....at times she was spectacularly late for dates....and she refused to buy minutes for her cell phone, I once bought her 10,000 pesos of minutes...and I said to her this  the first and last time I ll do this, its part of your responsibility to communicate with me.  She didnt get that. And she  could afford it, she was making a million pesos a month and living rent free in her mother s home....she simply thought if I wanted to talk to her, I should always call her, .
 
Regarding Traveler s post....I liked it a lot.
 
Striking that right alpha male balance is a challenge.
 
With respect, I believe here is an example of what NOT to do.....One of my best friends is American...40, he married a smart educated Colombian woman, she speaks  excelelnt English she was 33, he was 38 when they married and I was his best man in Bogota in June 2009.
 
He s rough, a merchant marine sailor rated to master, speaks at best pidgin gutter Spanish,  a 5th grade school dropout who went to sea at 16 to avoid juvenile incarceration and before he met his wife, he probably had been in almost every cathouse  in every port city in Euope, Asia and SA. 
 
Hie is exceedingly generous.with presents, jewely, money etc. They married 11 months after their first date and half of tha time he was in New York waiting for a ship or he was at sea. They had a little daughter after they were married.   
 
He once told me that including the wedding he had spent $60,000 US in those 11 months.
 
From time to time, he has complained to me......she s a good woman and a good mom...but god damn, she s expensive!
 
you think? ??
 
And  his style is a bit too alpha for me...
 
When I first lived in Colombia and I was still using  agencies in Bogota, I had a few occasions when  I asked a woman to go out to dinner for a first date  ---at a nice restaurant near Andino in Bogota or in Quinta Paredes where I lived.....and I was happy to pay between 50,0000 to 80,000 pesos, I had restuarants that I liked, I knew were good   And she would say...But I want to go to.....and she would name a high end restaurant that would go between  150 and 200,000 pesos.
 
And I simply replied ....I hope you have a nice time there, but it won t be with me.
 
Her point of view was probably to test me to see what my level of interest was and how deep my pockets were..... My point of view is...why is it necessary to spend a hundred dollars to have a first wth woman I dont  know...  If she can t apprecaite that a gentleman had invited her out for a nice dinner and she has to have more...then I m not the guy for her, someone else may cave in .......and
 
NEXT!
 
There is a line between generosity and being hosed. I will pay for all reasonable expenses in a relationship and nice classy gifts if they are merited. Bit when a woman has what  I consider to be too much of an attitude of entitlement.....let her find someone else..because i have the power to say NEXT, that is the ukltimate adasntage of living in SA.
 
I might also add that that type of self absorbed attitude has not  happened to me OFF the gringo trail...in places like Monteria and Planeta Rica and Ayapel in Cordoba and Tulua, Cartago, Palmira and Buga in valle de Cauca, women been happy to go out to a pizzeria or a broiled chicken restaurant.
 
Caballeros, vayan con Dios!
 
 
 

[beginthebeguin]

jajaja I can actually picture dennis as 'The Soup Nazi' yelling "NEXT!".   

[Traveler]

Dennis,
 
Regarding the woman from Bogota, her behavior was VERY typical for a colombiana, at least in my experience.   
 
As for the women you met at the agency in Bogota who wanted to go to a high end restaurant, either she was from an upper class, or (and/or) she was used to gringos doing exactly what she was telling them to do.  Maybe she was in the agency specifically so that she could be taken to those expensive restaurants?  jajaja
 
I do agree that it is stupid to overspend on a person you barely know, and in fact is counterproductive.  It willl look like a guy either being a pushover, or trying to manipulate a woman into liking him.  In order for a guy to be genuinely generous with a woman she to earn his generosity, and he has to like her.  If you like something or somebody a lot, you will spend money and time on that person.  But you can't genuinely like a person you have literally just met.  Dennis, I think the "next" thing in that context was a good call.

[Micky]

We are all different in where is our "economic comfort zone".  DL's encounter with the women that wanted to the high end place is a good example,  and his reaction,  spot on for Dennis.  I would not feel comfortable in a real high end restaurant,  no matter who was paying,  so why would I even consider such a thing?  What if the guy,  or the women for that matter,  is used to going to expensive places?  That has a completely different dynamic.  I have always thought that DL's "meet for cafe"  was,  and is,  a good move for a man.  You can accomplish a few things by going that way.  The initial meet is in a relaxed,  public environment,  you can have your basic question,  answer period,  and from that you both will have a MUCH better idea if you even want to go any further with the relationship.  Some guys have said that DL is cheap for doing this,  but the real intent and upside is not saving a buck,  you are being much more efficient with your time.  I don't care who you are or how much money you have,  nobody can buy or create time.  Personally I do not think it is that hard,  after a few dates,  to see a women's attitude about money.

Micky

[Jeff S]

Are we talking about meeting and pre-qualifying women you may want to bang, women you are getting serious with, with the intent to marry, or wives? Big difference between the three. Why should you spend money making friends with people you don't know. To use it as a tool to make yourself look more attractive is disingenuous and only attracts the very kind of women most people say they're trying to avoid.



I like to eat at nice restaurants, attend art and cultural events that the average Joe generally doesn't care about. These things generally cost money and require you to dress appropriately. I expect a partner to also appreciate those things as well, and to know how to dress and act at them. I dial those things back when times are tight and expect a partner to be able to do the same. Women who have progressed beyond adolescence understand this. If a women gets "spoiled" by your actions, it's her personality flaw (at least it is to me) and it's someone I don't care to continue a relationship with. For me to alter my behavior in fear that their behavior may change is inane.