Women With Kid/s - Shorter List? And the Black Hole

[Brazilophile]

..., so I have learned to accept single mothers.  There are benefits to those women too:  they are more grounded in my experience, and you can see immediately if they are good mothers (most colombianas are great mothers in my opinion).

Maybe this should be a new tread because I don't want to hi-jack this one.  Traveler's comment made me want to ask what standards he (and the rest of us) use to determine how to assess whether a woman is a good or great mother.   
 
 My experience is as follows.  In some of the stores in which I shop, Spanish-speaking women generally let their sons run wild in the store.  They were stricter with their daughters.  When I used agencies in Colombia, I met many single mothers.  I never got deeply into it with any of the ladies, but a concern of mine was how they came to be single mothers.
 
 For me, the most important requirement to being a GREAT mother is choosing a good father!  If a woman decides to have a child with an abusive man or a man who abandons them, I see a very red flag.  (Most of the ladies said the father lied to her.)  When a child grows up without a father in the household, the child doesn't get a healthy image of the role a man plays in the family, of what a father does.  When that child is a girl, she doesn't learn how to evaluate men and make sound decisions about which men to let into her life.   When so many Colombian men are distant from their families, for whatever reasons, the girls become women with very warped ideas of what makes a good husband and father.  They end up repeating the mistakes their mothers made.  I don't see how most mothers, however well intentioned, can compensate for the dysfunction created by a bad, negligent, or absent father.
 
 We advise men their wives to choose wisely.  Women have to do the same with their husbands.
 
 

[dennislevy]

Traveler

I don t recall if you have been to Colombia, from your posts, i assume............ not.

 What I m hearing is......why should I look for a colombian woman who is 30, when i can get younger and maybe sexier and hotter who is 24 or 25 or so?

AnD that Colombian chica is going to think...why should I commit myself to this gringo when I ve got SIX years  left to look for a husband...and maybe find a way better deal.  A  young BEAUTIFUL Colombian girl (if she is on an internet site)...is going to have messages and contacts coming out her ears....so why are YOU going to tbe the one that riings her bell?

For many young Colombian girls what they will be doing next week is incomprehensible....and six years is FOREVER!!!!!!

Of course, there are exceptions......FT married a young woman, etc.  And maybe you ll find one.
 Myabe you can find one at 24 or 25.....without ANY OR too much baggage.

There are three key ages for colombian women...15, 30 and 40...for different reasons.
 
I think its a smarter bet to look a little older for a woman  who is mature enough to KNOW what she wants.
 And at 30, smart single Colombian women who have avoided the traps of unplanned pregnancies and bad, abusive  relationships generally have a higher level of maturity,  and have a much better idea of what they want...and if they have traditional values, they do want marriage and a family.
 
I m going to put this  as nicely as I can.....Traveler , forget about YOU......concentrate on the WOMAN .....figure out what a Colombian woman s true motivation is at THIS point in her life...when you re talking to her...not the standard cliches..

You ve got to get past busco mi media maranja.....quiero un hombre para respetarme, para valorme....
 
bUT.....in her secret heart...if you can get to it.....WHAT DOES SHE REALLY WANT?

And again respectfully..to think only in terms of age, looks and appeal...is just a  tad superficial.

OK?

have a great day.
Dennis

 



 

   

[Traveler]

Let me respond to the three posts above.  First of all, I did go at length that it is very important to me if we can get along, if I appreciate her qualities, and she appreciates mine, our tastes and aspirations are in sync, etc.  And the looks are important to me.  I honestly don't see any superficiality in this.  I am not looking for a Miss Universe, but I just want someone whom I will be excited to see naked every night, who takes care of herself.  This is normal. 
 
As for Brazilophile, I don't see a woman having a kid and raising him as a red flag.  Sometimes people get mistaken in others.  Just see how many guys here have been mistaken in women.  The same happens to women on an even greater scale.  Maybe she was raped, maybe the guy got her drunk and took advantage of her, maybe the guy promised to pull out and didn't, maybe she assumed that the guy wanted to have a child with her and he didn't, maybe she though he will marry her if she got pregnant and he didn't, etc.  To judge a woman who has misjudged intentions of some guy who she was in love with when she was say 18 is cruel IMHO.  And THE main reason why there are a lot more single mothers in Colombia is because an American women may and do have abortions when the circumstances are not optimal, whereas Colombian women will not and may not.  Also you have to realize that some of those girls wanted to be independent and move out of her family home, and the only way most may be permitted to do that is either they get married, or have a child.
 
Secondly, there is no point for me whatsoever to look for a professional woman in her 30s in Colombia.  I don't really have any issues dating women in their 30s in the US, even those without kids and professional education.  There is a GLUT of them here.  They get to 35 and suddenly realize that their clock is ticking.  And the ones that have kids 99% of the time are having arrangements with the kids' fathers.  I certainly think it is great that a guy still takes care of his kids and wants to be in their lives even though his relationship with the mother didn't pan out, I don't want to be in a situation where I am in a relationship with a woman who is constantly interacting with her ex-husband, and most importantly her children do as well.
 
Yes, Dennis, I have been to Colombia many times.  I have not traveled there as extensively as you, but few people have  .  You are right about looking for the woman's true motivations, though.  It's hard sometimes to be objective about it, but it must be done.  I do appreciate your advice, and I realize it comes from wisdom and experience.  The reason I went at length about my qualifications and what I want and look for, is because I was anwering the question in the original post.  Plus it is a lot easier than answering the proverbial "what do women want"! 

[dennislevy]

Traveler

Fair enough.

Im not sure its cruel to judge a woman who has had a child at 16 or 18, i ve certainly talked with them...and they dont leave the family after the birrth...(and if the father has bolted) they stay in the home. .....

Some addtional thoughts...not that you re going to follow them, jejejej
1.Look for a woman estrato 3 and up....
2.Look for a woman who has demostrated maturity and stability in some way, she has finished something....vocactional  college, a college degree, but something.
3, Look for a woman from a stable family unit...no that easy to find..... but well worth searching for
4. Look for a woman who has CREDIBLE reasons why she is interested in you.
5. If you know what personality tyes attrract you in the US......look for them in Colombia...because women are women....


Good luck


Dennis

[whitey]

Traveler

Fair enough.

Im not sure its cruel to judge a woman who has had a child at 16 or 18, i ve certainly talked with them...and they dont leave the family after the birrth...(and if the father has bolted) they stay in the home. .....

Some addtional thoughts...not that you re going to follow them, jejejej
1.Look for a woman estrato 3 and up....
2.Look for a woman who has demostrated maturity and stability in some way, she has finished something....vocactional  college, a college degree, but something.
3, Look for a woman from a stable family unit...no that easy to find..... but well worth searching for
4. Look for a woman who has CREDIBLE reasons why she is interested in you.
5. If you know what personality tyes attrract you in the US......look for them in Colombia...because women are women....


Good luck


Dennis

Excellent advice Dennis ... couldn't agree more ...

In many cases, a credible reason for being interested in you will be very basic: she is simply looking for someone stable and faithful to love and to love her, and to raise a family.  It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

I doubt I'm telling traveler anything new here though ... seems like he has some experience.

[Traveler]

Dennis,
 
Actually I do agree with your advice this time.  It is common sense, and frankly I was looking along those lines before.
 
I didn't say that women having a kid to leave the family home was the most common reason for them to do that.  It does happen though, not every time, and probably not in the majority of those cases, but it does happen.

[Brazilophile]

As for Brazilophile, I don't see a woman having a kid and raising him as a red flag.  Sometimes people get mistaken in others.  Just see how many guys here have been mistaken in women.  The same happens to women on an even greater scale.  Maybe she was raped, maybe the guy got her drunk and took advantage of her, maybe the guy promised to pull out and didn't, maybe she assumed that the guy wanted to have a child with her and he didn't, maybe she though he will marry her if she got pregnant and he didn't, etc.  To judge a woman who has misjudged intentions of some guy who she was in love with when she was say 18 is cruel IMHO.  And THE main reason why there are a lot more single mothers in Colombia is because an American women may and do have abortions when the circumstances are not optimal, whereas Colombian women will not and may not.  Also you have to realize that some of those girls wanted to be independent and move out of her family home, and the only way most may be permitted to do that is either they get married, or have a child.

 Traveler,
 
 Read the points you have made.
 
 1) the woman made a mistake in judging the man.
 2) the man got her drunk and took advantage of her.
 3) the man promised to pull out but didn't.
 4) the woman assumed the man wanted a child with her.
 5) the woman thought the man would marry her if she got pregnant.
 6) the woman was 18 years old and in love.
 7) the woman wants to move out of her parents' house.
 
 Do you sincerely not consider any of the above red flags? If so, why not?
 
 1) 
 If the woman made a mistake in judging one man, might she not also make a mistake judging you?  Doesn't that indicate that man should take some extra time to more deeply evaluate that woman's judgement skills?
 
 2)
 If a woman drinks, has sex, and gets pregnant as a result, shouldn't a man take extra time to see if she abuses alcohol, gets drunk frequently, or goes wild when drunk?  Do you really want to get involved with a Casey Anthony type??
 
 3)
 If a woman has unprotected sex and relies SOLELY on the man to avoid pregnancy, doesn't that indicate that a man should investigate that woman's past a bit more, be more observant of her behavior in the present, and take more time in the future to observe her behavior around men.
 
 4)
 Intentionally becoming pregnant based on an assumption, without asking and discussing the matter with the father, is NOT a HUGE red flag for you??
 
 5)
 Intentionally becoming pregnant in hopes of coercing, blackmailing, shaming, and/or praying, the father will marry her is NOT a deal-breaker for you??
 
 6)
 If an 18 year old woman gets pregnant out of love, doesn't that indicate that a man should evaluate that woman's maturity?  Most teenagers cannot distinguish between love and lust.
 
 7)
 Others have already commented on that one.  It is too ridiculous for me.
 
 I don't see how you arrive at a man making sure he marries the best woman for him is cruel to single mothers.  Sharing your life with someone is not done out of charity.
 
 So for me, all of the above are red flags.  Probably the only scenario of single motherhood that is not a red flag is being a widow.  I met a handful in Cartagena and Cali.  One, a 26 year old, had been married to a soldier.  He was kidnapped by criminals and later killed.  She had a 4 year old daughter by him.
 
 
 

[InSanDiego]

Brazilophile, you articulated many of the reservations I have, and everything you mentioned is a red flag for me too.

[Traveler]

Brazilophile,
 
So for you if a woman is naive and inexperienced when young, and because of that gets herself into a situation far from ideal, is a red flag?  I assume you have never made a mistake?  You have never made an error judging people even when you were say 18?
 
First of all, if a woman for example is well into her 30s and has no kid yet, that's a much bigger red flag for me.
 
Secondly, it's difficult for a woman to get intentionally pregnant without the guy acquiesing to that.  She might have made a wrong assumption, but the guy had to play along.  Thirdly, if a woman got drunk and pregnant, it doesn't mean she gets drunk regularly; in fact, it's very unlikely that she does, or she would have a higher tolerance and will know how to handle the licquor.  Regardless, you should at least know the circumstances before passing a judgment.
 
Obviously, if you like a girl and consider a relationship with her, you should evaluate the way she acts, her personality, even her past errors in life.  Also consider the fact that many people change over time and learn from their past mistakes.  (Granted, some don't.)  So you should not judge a person negatively just because of a mistake she has made in her youth.  I don't think that you, or anyone else for that matter, has never made a mistake in their lives.  People are human, and you should evaluate the woman based on how she makes you feel, whether her affection is sincere, the personal qualities that matter before attempting to judge her character based on her being a single mother

[JimD]

I htink there are about three basic scenarios when a foreign man takes on a man with kids.

Kudos to Dennislevey for thinking outside the box but I really don´t think this is the appropriate venue.

[beginthebeguin]

Dennis said:

Some addtional thoughts...not that you re going to follow them, jejejej
1.Look for a woman estrato 3 and up....
2.Look for a woman who has demostrated maturity and stability in some way, she has finished something....vocactional  college, a college degree, but something.
3, Look for a woman from a stable family unit...no that easy to find..... but well worth searching for
4. Look for a woman who has CREDIBLE reasons why she is interested in you.
5. If you know what personality tyes attract you in the US......look for them in Colombia...because women are women....

Love this Dennis. A quick checklist. Simple not overly complicated.

[chameleon]

I definitely wouldn't go for a woman with kid(s), no matter how hot she was, and there are some girls whose profiles i've clicked on because they were gorgeous only to see they had kids and think "damnit!"


I don't even want my own kids for a couple years after I get married. I want to enjoy the time when it's just us, to be able to travel easily and show her a bit of Europe and Africa without worry about diapers and baby bottles.


I also don't get the part about there not being many Colombian women in their mid-20s w/o kids. It definitely thins out above that range, but there's more than enough for any one man to date, unless they're lying and when i get there they're gonna be like "oops did I put 0 kids?"


Anyway, I'm glad i'm in the age range that can go after early-mid 20s girls without feeling like a cradle-robber (31).

[Traveler]

Chameleon,
 
Probably by 23-24 more than 50% already have kids, and it thins out - as you put it- rapidly afterwards.  Your reasons not to date women with kids are perfectly reasonable.  And there are many other reasons not to date women with kids.  I have thought in depth about this, have dated a woman with a kid before, and decided that I would rather compromise on this issue instead of other things, but this decision is personal, and certainly there is no shame in rejecting those women, especially for a guy who doesn't have kids of his own yet.
 
I only had a problem with people saying that if a woman is a single mother without even knowing circumstances of her getting pregnant that it is a "red flag", that somehow that automatically reflects negatively on her character and her capacity of being a good wife or girlfriend.  The main reason why there are far fewer single unwed mothers in the US is because here it is legal and acceptable to terminate pregnancy by surgical means, and I just don't see how a woman having an abortion instead of keeping the child is less of a "red flag".

[chameleon]

Chameleon,
 
Probably by 23-24 more than 50% already have kids, and it thins out - as you put it- rapidly afterwards.  Your reasons not to date women with kids are perfectly reasonable.  And there are many other reasons not to date women with kids.  I have thought in depth about this, have dated a woman with a kid before, and decided that I would rather compromise on this issue instead of other things, but this decision is personal, and certainly there is no shame in rejecting those women, especially for a guy who doesn't have kids of his own yet.
 
I only had a problem with people saying that if a woman is a single mother without even knowing circumstances of her getting pregnant that it is a "red flag", that somehow that automatically reflects negatively on her character and her capacity of being a good wife or girlfriend.  The main reason why there are far fewer single unwed mothers in the US is because here it is legal and acceptable to terminate pregnancy by surgical means, and I just don't see how a woman having an abortion instead of keeping the child is less of a "red flag".

Ya, I definitely don't view it as a flag in and of itself. I'm browsing some sites right now and looking at women 29-30 and i'm LOTS have kids, but enough that are really hot also don't have kids. I'm going with Jaime and the bulk of women i'm going to ask to meet are in the 21-24 range, but there's some in the 25-30 range as well. Still, if you're 35 i don't see why you can't fish in 23-25 range. There should be a large enough pool in all of Colombia, no?


Adding a kid to the mix seems like such a HUGE concession. For me, it would be up there with dating a fat/ugly chick. It just wouldn't happen. Ever.


I obviously love young women, but the upshot of older women is you have a better idea of how they'll look down the road.

[utopiacowboy]

So for me, all of the above are red flags.  Probably the only scenario of single motherhood that is not a red flag is being a widow.  I met a handful in Cartagena and Cali.  One, a 26 year old, had been married to a soldier.  He was kidnapped by criminals and later killed.  She had a 4 year old daughter by him.

Bingo. Plenty of widows in Colombia but very few men choose them even though I have met some extremely attractive ones. Think viuda.

[Traveler]

I am fairly open as far as the age is concerned.  A woman can be in early 30s, or early 20s.  I am primarily looking at 24-29 age range though, since most of those women are out of the "hoochie phase" by then.  And women in early 30s are likely to have baggage and issues with men - not always, but more likely, plus they are well older.
 
There are major complications and responsibilities involving women with kids.  It just happened that I got involved with a girl with a kid and sorta got used to the situation, so I don't view it anymore as an absolute deal breaker, but obviously this is not a plus and she really has to make up for it in other areas.

[Brazilophile]

I only had a problem with people saying that if a woman is a single mother without even knowing circumstances of her getting pregnant that it is a "red flag", that somehow that automatically reflects negatively on her character and her capacity of being a good wife or girlfriend.  The main reason why there are far fewer single unwed mothers in the US is because here it is legal and acceptable to terminate pregnancy by surgical means, and I just don't see how a woman having an abortion instead of keeping the child is less of a "red flag".

 I see that Traveler and I have different understandings of the term "red flag". I use it in the context of identifying an important issue that would need to be resolved before the relationship can deepen and develop further.  Traveler seems to understand it to mean the relationship has ended because the woman is of poor character and won't make a great mother.
 
 I also see that Traveler doesn't read my posts very well.  In my post of July 9, I explicitly wrote in 3 of my 7 points that that man should "take extra time" to investigate and evaluate the circumstances of the red flag in order to resolve it.  I imply the same in the others.  I specifically do not automatically arrive at a conclusion about the character of the woman and her capacity to be a good wife, as Traveler claims I do.
 
 I further suspect Traveler is not well versed in the reality of health care in the United States.  Perhaps he doesn't realize that there is no universal health care in the US, that patients must PAY the care they receive either through insurance, cash, or government program.  Ergo, ABORTIONS ARE NOT FREE!!!!  I don't believe most insurance plans cover abortions that are not medically indicated, i.e. the pregnancy will threaten the health of the mother should it continue.  I know that Medicaid doesn't cover abortions of any kind.  Most women are forced to pay cash for an abortion and that limits access to middle and upper income women.
 
 In addition, the conservative movement in the US has been successful in reducing the number of doctors who are willing to perform abortions.  Medical schools have stopped teaching how to perform abortions so the number of doctors who are capable of performing abortions has fallen dramatically over the past 20 years.  These two developments have concentrated abortion providers in the largest US cities.  A woman in Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, or other conservative mid-west state in a smaller city, looking for an abortion provider WON"T FIND ONE!
 
 The statement that there are fewer unwed mothers in the US compared to Colombia mainly because abortion is legal in the US is utterly, completely, and thoroughly false!
 
 It is arguable that there are NOT fewer unwed mothers in the US than in Colombia.  Over the past decade, the health statistics agencies that track these things, show that over 70% of Black births were to single mothers and that close to 75% of Black children are living in single parent households of which almost all are headed by women (mostly the mother but sometimes the grandmother).  Almost a third of White births were to single mothers.  The Bristol Palins are becoming the rule, not the exception.
 
 I am making a deal out of this because finding a good mother was one of the reasons I am looking in LA for a wife.  I have found, and still find, that fathers and fatherhood are devalued and marginalized in the US.  The laws in family courts favor mothers.  Several recent TV programs lampoon men and fathers.  Many TV ads show men and fathers to be dolts who need their wives to correct their mistakes.  I have found in my experience in LA that women still value having a man in the home who is active in managing the household, though they have difficulty finding such men.
 
 
 
 
 

[beginthebeguin]

Brazilophile sez

I am making a deal out of this because finding a good mother was one of the reasons I am looking in LA for a wife.  I have found, and still find, that fathers and fatherhood are devalued and marginalized in the US.  The laws in family courts favor mothers.  Several recent TV programs lampoon men and fathers.  Many TV ads show men and fathers to be dolts who need their wives to correct their mistakes.  I have found in my experience in LA that women still value having a man in the home who is active in managing the household, though they have difficulty finding such men.

And that's what it is all about boys. That's the real reason why you are here. Hell, you can find hot chicas anywhere. But were are you going to find a woman that is going to value your presence. A woman that is not going to be bombarded mass media messages that denigrate fathers and fatherhood. To palagarize Horace Greely, "Go South young man!".
 
 

[fathertime]

 I am making a deal out of this because finding a good mother was one of the reasons I am looking in LA for a wife.  I have found, and still find, that fathers and fatherhood are devalued and marginalized in the US.  The laws in family courts favor mothers.  Several recent TV programs lampoon men and fathers.  Many TV ads show men and fathers to be dolts who need their wives to correct their mistakes.  I have found in my experience in LA that women still value having a man in the home who is active in managing the household, though they have difficulty finding such men.

Hey brazilophile,  I think you will find that many of these SA ladies are good mothers...many  will also want to improve their own personal growth so be prepared to balance a little bit. 


i remember hearing/commenting about modern day TV and the negative way fathers were characterized many years ago too...my wife doesn't watch any american tv shows and neither do i.

[Alabamaboy!]

My wife is 23 and the biggest problem we have is that she is too positive about the world and somewhat naive about things. Because she is fresh and clean like a new penny. No baggage of any sort because she has not been in the dating game long there. No pregnancies. So she is living her fairytale right now. She is from a lower estrato, but has made a lot of good decisions regarding staying out of trouble. A couple of her sisters took the opposite route and sadly their lives have been changed forever and their hopes of ever getting out of the ghetto are probably not realistic at this time.

After meeting a bunch of women over the past 4-5 years, I would say that the older women usually have a lot of baggage due to previous relationships. And that positive outlook on life has been replaced to a certain degree with cynicism and cold heartedness, because they know that life can be a bitch. And that nobody is going to take care of them if they don't do it themselves. And they realize that most men are dogs and are going to lie and take advantage of them.

That is why I would advise most guys to go with the age group you have suggested, not the super, super young who are still in party mode, but the group right after that 24-29. Even if the guy is in his early 40's. I see no reason to shy away from these younger women, unless you are not able to "hang" with them sexually or activity wise in general. But be aware, almost all of the younger women I met want kids, and some of the guys don't want that burden because they are just getting their careers off the ground or they already have kids of their own that they are supporting from previous relationships.

[jb]

Kudos to Dennislevey for thinking outside the box but I really don´t think this is the appropriate venue.

JimD that's hilarious.   gotta love the typoes...

[Alabamaboy!]

many  will also want to improve their own personal growth so be prepared to balance a little bit. 

I see no real harm in this as long as it is happening in the context of a family setting, with the family's well-being always in the picture.

I remember there was this one guy on one of the other forums that had no problems letting his wife go out on her own a lot, thinking it was for "personal growth" issues. Then she started staying out all night, then I believe it was a job in a bar, and before it was all said and done she was a stripper sleeping with a bunch of clients, with a drug addiction,  and ended up leaving him.  I think the guy was from the Dallas area.

[Researcher]

   I agree with you AB.If a woman hasn't gotten out of clubbing by the time she gets married it usually leads to problems.

     Researcher

[Traveler]

Hey, Brazilophile,
 
I guess I did misunderstand your meaning of a "red flag".  Now that you have cleared it up, I can see your point.  However, I never suggested that abortions are free in the US, or that they are available on every corner.  Granted, I never needed to have one done myself  .  The difference is that in Colombia they are actually illegal, except for special circumstances, and on top of that they are completely socially unacceptable.  In my experience, I haven't met a lot of single mothers in their 20s in the US, and the ones that were were either divorced, or otherwise had the kid's father in the picture.
 
Frankly, one of the main reasons for me to look for a woman in Colombia also is the fact that IMHO they make great mothers, and they have generally large and loving families.  That's something I definitely want for my children. 
 
If a woman is already a mother obviously it is a negative given the logistics and additional responsibilities, no matter how you look at it.  However, if a woman is a mother already that takes away guessing of how good a mother she is.  If she is the type that dumps the kids for the weekend with her parents and goes off to party and gets drunk on weekends, you will see that right away.  If she is not patient enough and spanks the kid too much, you will see it also.  Or at the other extreme if she doesn't know how to discipline the child, and he is allowed to run around without any discipline (because he is a "niño"), you will know it - and that's an attitude you should really watch out for in Colombia BTW, especially with boys.  And every guy will probably wonder what will happen to the woman's body after pregnancy, and if she will have the discipline to take care of her appearance.  Granted, there are ways to predict all those things, but meeting a woman who is already a single mother does take away the need for the guesswork.
 
I do agree that being a single mother could be a "red flag" - given your definition of the term, and every guy should think this over very well before making a decision of whether he will compromise on this issue or not.

[Traveler]

   I agree with you AB.If a woman hasn't gotten out of clubbing by the time she gets married it usually leads to problems.

     Researcher

I agree 100%, but judging whether she has "gotten this out" of her system can be is tricky.  I think naturally people go through this stage in their late teens and early 20s, and are done with it.  However, if the girl's family was very conservative, she might have suppressed it.  So this phase might actually never happen, or she might start going through it later in life, while already married.  And by the same token, there are people who never get out of this "phase".
 
That's one of the reasons people should not rush into marriage, and should invest time - and as much as possible in person - to get to know the woman.