Women With Kid/s - Shorter List? And the Black Hole

[fathertime]

 
3. The whiite knight complez Another Americna friend at that agency was 75 but lived n Bogota and had a pretty girlfriend who he imported from Cartagena by way of cupido. she was 37.  And she had a list...and 3 young kids with grandma in caratgena. he rented a fancy furnished estrata 6 apartment in north Bogota, bought boobs for her...that wasn t entirley on her, she was his fourth set of boobs.....sent her to English lessons and beauty school and tried to maintain the facade of a wealthy man.  He was also sending 600,000 for the kids in cartagena every month. he waS mart enough not to marry her, but not smart enough to accept that he was way in over his head.   her attiutde was well, if Im oging to be here...and he s 75 years old, I ll keep asking......And he couldnt say NO.he wnet back to the sates, she went back to cartagena.
 

what is described here is something other than a real relationship based on love/respect.  it sounds like a form of prostitution....  i gotta say 75 years old and still has the motivation to chase young woman and make it a priority in life, interesting.


Fathertime!

[Alabamaboy!]

Definitely a minus from the Colombian women I've known. The first time I visisted Jamie's my profile clearly stated I didn't have kids and three girls I went on dates with still made it a point to confirm. I don't think it's so much the children they have a problem with. They are well aware that if you have kids with another woman, they more than likely live with her, so she's still in some ways a part of your life.

I found just the opposite to be true. Especially with the Barranquilleras. I always have a ton of pics on my computer of my kids and it seemed like all the Colombianas I met, were crazy about seeing the pics. More interested in the kids than anything else. When I would ask them about whether it was a problem or not that I had kids, they would almost universally say the same thing, that children are a blessing and they would absolutely have no problem being with a guy with kids. It seems like almost all Colombianas love children, pets, and having a beautiful "home". I think it would be much more difficult to find a Barranquillera who did not want their own  kids or accept their husband's kids rather than ones who did want and accept them.

In the US was just the opposite. And surprisingly many of the Mexicanas living in the States also were not too interested in the idea of a relationship with a guy with kids. As soon as I would see any hesitation or whatever on their part, I cut them loose quickly. Because my kids are the most important things in my life. Even if they seemed OK with it, but were not ecstatic. I would move on.

My Barranquillera wife is super in love with my kids. And they love her too.  And we hope to have at least one more child together.

[dennislevy]

FT
if I give too many details about the White Knight...some of the old timers may know who he is. But he didnt look anything like 75.........more like 55.....he and I were very close friends for about a year in Bogota...until the facade cracked. he was trying to please everyone by being someone he couldnt be.
 
i ll say this....in Latin culture a woman can expect a man to pay for everything....that s his job in the provider...and she expected him to do that because she had left her mother and three kids to live with him.  But I also think she loved and respected him...until the facade cracked.....
 
 

[maritime04]

To the original question, I do not think there is a 100% true blue answer, to me you seem to have asked if due to the burden of having children to support will a young attractive woman be willing to marry or be involved with someone simply for support financially and personally (help rising kids)
There is no standard answer for that, There are a lot of women in Colombia whom use men for finical support not just foreigners, but Colombians, and these guys know this because they are using those women for sex, and the company of a younger women. When the relationship gets old either party breaks it off and moves on to the next.

[benjio]

Maritime's post reminds me of a True Story of a guy I know in Barranquilla.
 
I met the Costal Area Logistics and Supply Chain Manager for Exito during one trip to visit my ex-girlfriend. He's in charge of everything that's shipped for and distributed to Exito in the Atlantico, Magdelena, and Cordoba Departments of Colombia. By American standards, for a position like he has and the responsibility it entails, he is considerably underpaid. But he's still one of the most financially successful 9-5 Colombians I've ever met, earning around $10 Million COP a month (Although it is considered inappropriate in the United States, most Colombians I've met have no problem what so ever telling you how much they make). He is in his mid 50's and a little overweight. Otherwise he takes good care of himself though. Nice clothes, well groomed, etc.
 
He has a 22 year old son from a 30 year marriage. Three years ago his son was dating a girl and got her pregnant. The girl was and is still gorgeous at 20 years old. One of those Colombianas that cause traffic accidents when she walks down the street. Anyone here that's been in Colombia five minutes knows exactly what type of beauty I'm talking about. Anyway, it didn't work out between his son and the girl so they broke up. As usual in Colombia, the son does nothing to help out with the child afterwards. The son eventually left Barranquilla because his father got him a management position at an Exito in Neiva. The girl was still constantly calling and coming to the home of the family in Barranquilla demanding some kind of financial support. Poor girls from poor families that have babies with poor Colombian guys don't even bother doing this from my experience. They kind of just cry, accept their fate and keep on trucking. But this girl knew the family had money. The guy's wife is a psychiatrist that works for some department of the Colombian Government. The mother of his son's child would not let up. Eventually the guy I know begins helping her out. A little here, a little there. Just to keep her from coming to the house and making a scene. After a while, he starts going to visit her at her home. A little longer, they begin having sex. 
 
Allow me to recap if your mouth hasn't dropped yet. This guy is now sleeping with his grandchild's mother!!!!
 
After a few months of sex he begins seriously falling for her. Remodeling her family's house. Buying her and the baby new clothes. Furniture, a motorcycle for her brother. The works! Here's the crazy thing. The family knows this guy is the grandfather of the child, that he's married, and doesn't care. The guy's wife knows about the girl and hasn't left him or even mentioned divorce. His son doesn't really care either. This guy takes week long trips with this girl to Providencia, leaves his home at all times of the night to meet her. The $#!+ is ridiculous. Last I heard the guy was getting ready to leave his wife because the younger girl doesn't want to share him anymore. I know about all this because this girl is a close friend of my ex. I also met his son and he showed me around while I was in Neiva. Seriously, what do you tell the child when it gets older and can understand what's going on?

[maritime04]

that story is about as bad as it gets, sin vergüenza

 i have issues with the following
 
even if a chica has been knocked up by a broke "dip head", she wont let him off easy, not with out crying, and yelling, even if its for 70 mil every 2 weeks she complain, now the dady is under no obligation to help and often doesn't but when he wants some play or feels sorry for his child..
 
The mother has the option to take daddy to court or file against him, again lengthy process but does happen. if the daddy family comes from money YOU BETTER BET somebody on the motherside is going to suggest going to cort to start the process.
 
Colombians are too jealous to let their men blatantly screw another girl, unless she is an intersada to begin with, your story sounds alot like the plot from "cheppe fortuna" except genders reversed.....i have no doubt its true however. these TV shows have to get their ideas from somewhere

[benjio]

that story is about as bad as it gets, sin vergüenza

 i have issues with the following
 
even if a chica has been knocked up by a broke "dip head", she wont let him off easy, not with out crying, and yelling, even if its for 70 mil every 2 weeks she complain, now the dady is under no obligation to help and often doesn't but when he wants some play or feels sorry for his child..

Not my experience in Barranquilla. When a guy is broke, he's just broke. And there are TONS of completely broke men in Barranquilla with children. BELIEVE ME!!!! Sure the girl will cry for a while, give him a bad name in the streets and ask for help every time she has the opportunity, but from what I've seen they'll generally give up and raise the child by themselves. Seen it a thousand times and it's really a damn shame.
 

The mother has the option to take daddy to court or file against him, again lengthy process but does happen. if the daddy family comes from money YOU BETTER BET somebody on the motherside is going to suggest going to cort to start the process.

I've also heard there are ways a woman can get child support through court orders in Colombia. But at the speed things work there, especially in terms of the government, the kid would probably be able to support itself by the time the mother gets a dime. Back payments?...I think not.
 

Colombians are too jealous to let their men blatantly screw another girl, unless she is an intersada to begin with, your story sounds alot like the plot from "cheppe fortuna" except genders reversed.....i have no doubt its true however. these TV shows have to get their ideas from somewhere

This was one of the most unbelievable things to me because I fully agree. I've never met the guys wife but supposedly she still hanging on. What was even more amazing is his son is tolerating his Dad treating his mother that way, and with his ex girlfriend nonetheless. True story though...and not the worst I've seen or heard of in Colombia.

[Researcher]

Maritime's post reminds me of a True Story of a guy I know in Barranquilla.
 
I met the Costal Area Logistics and Supply Chain Manager for Exito during one trip to visit my ex-girlfriend. He's in charge of everything that's shipped for and distributed to Exito in the Atlantico, Magdelena, and Cordoba Departments of Colombia. By American standards, for a position like he has and the responsibility it entails, he is considerably underpaid. But he's still one of the most financially successful 9-5 Colombians I've ever met, earning around $10 Million COP a month (Although it is considered inappropriate in the United States, most Colombians I've met have no problem what so ever telling you how much they make). He is in his mid 50's and a little overweight. Otherwise he takes good care of himself though. Nice clothes, well groomed, etc.
 
He has a 22 year old son from a 30 year marriage. Three years ago his son was dating a girl and got her pregnant. The girl was and is still gorgeous at 20 years old. One of those Colombianas that cause traffic accidents when she walks down the street. Anyone here that's been in Colombia five minutes knows exactly what type of beauty I'm talking about. Anyway, it didn't work out between his son and the girl so they broke up. As usual in Colombia, the son does nothing to help out with the child afterwards. The son eventually left Barranquilla because his father got him a management position at an Exito in Neiva. The girl was still constantly calling and coming to the home of the family in Barranquilla demanding some kind of financial support. Poor girls from poor families that have babies with poor Colombian guys don't even bother doing this from my experience. They kind of just cry, accept their fate and keep on trucking. But this girl knew the family had money. The guy's wife is a psychiatrist that works for some department of the Colombian Government. The mother of his son's child would not let up. Eventually the guy I know begins helping her out. A little here, a little there. Just to keep her from coming to the house and making a scene. After a while, he starts going to visit her at her home. A little longer, they begin having sex. 
 
Allow me to recap if your mouth hasn't dropped yet. This guy is now sleeping with his grandchild's mother!!!!
 
After a few months of sex he begins seriously falling for her. Remodeling her family's house. Buying her and the baby new clothes. Furniture, a motorcycle for her brother. The works! Here's the crazy thing. The family knows this guy is the grandfather of the child, that he's married, and doesn't care. The guy's wife knows about the girl and hasn't left him or even mentioned divorce. His son doesn't really care either. This guy takes week long trips with this girl to Providencia, leaves his home at all times of the night to meet her. The $#!+ is ridiculous. Last I heard the guy was getting ready to leave his wife because the younger girl doesn't want to share him anymore. I know about all this because this girl is a close friend of my ex. I also met his son and he showed me around while I was in Neiva. Seriously, what do you tell the child when it gets older and can understand what's going on?

    They will probably tell the child later on: Meet your Step-Dad: Grandpa!

      Researcher

[sticky2]

Wow, sounds like this guy's got it figured out....  he's gonna trade in the old saggy wife for a younger hotter girl that already has a kid, but since the kid is his grandchild, he can still love him and treat him like family, cause he's also his grandson!!!   haha, awesome!
 
Then, when the grandson grows up and gets a girl pregnant and then abandons her... guess what that great grandpa is gonna have on his mind!  Time to trade down to the younger hot momma again...... Hahahaha.... nice strategy if you ask me!  (of course I'm kidding)

[Alabamaboy!]

Colombians are too jealous to let their men blatantly screw another girl, unless she is an intersada to begin with, your story sounds alot like the plot from "cheppe fortuna" except genders reversed.....i have no doubt its true however.

I have seen it happen like this too. My father in law has at least 2 other complete families! And like today for instance, it is is birthday and his kids from those relationships are over at the house where my wife lives with her parents and sisters. And of course his wife knows about all this, but what is she going to do? Leave him? How? Where will she go? How would she get there if she had a place to go? That's just the way things are there. And my ex gf from there had similar things going on. And I would say the majority of them do. Those Costenos are something else! The just kind of do whatever they want and nobody ever really calls them on it.

[Micky]

I have a fair idea of how things roll here more or less,  I still have a very long way to go.  Many of us like,  love the simplicity of the Latin life,  but the culture is anything but simple.  Whether the cheating Latin male "thing" (as I have stated before,  he is "cheating" with a LATINA) or the culture of violence,  to over simplify - to acquiesce is to approve,  in all things.
 

Micky

[utopiacowboy]

I don't find it shocking at all after what I have experienced in Colombia or know of through my wife. Life goes on.

[maritime04]

not all colombians fit in the same box, but i have to admit cuturally and socially they allow or tolerate alot more then say americans would.

[dennislevy]

GREAT and instructive example Benjio!

In my personal experience.............in Colombia.....

Women coming home unexpectedy and walking in on their husands having sex with their best amigas, that one Ive heard at least three times.   And once i hear that....I m gone.....I don t care how beautiful the woman is.....that s trauma with a capital T!

A  widow in her 30s in la Guajira that I had a relatonship with for about two or three weeks in March of this yearr.

She had a total 12 siblings and half siblings, the dad went between two women and houses in la Guajira, finally my ex girls mom threw him out, but she still speaks with him and he comes over to the house every so often. 

This ex girfriend had married at 14, was a widow at 18, (her 28 year old husband was shot and killed in a robbery) she got thrown out of her dead husband  s house with their child by the dead husand s relatives 48 hours after the funeral.

Sher had another chid with another man when she was 21.....

It took me a little too long to figure out how fractured she was. 

And I was with a 43 year woman in Bogota a couple of years ago, for about 6 weeks. She was from Villavicenzio. She got married at 16, her husband was 32...and was constantly traveling, but was a great provider and they lived well. 18 years ino the marriage...(or so she claimed) thats  4 kids and two infants deaths later, she learned that he had 3 other kis with two other women (one in Villavicnezio) and  ione near the Venezuelan border and and had a notarized union libre relationship with the long distance woman.

This lady (the one I was dating ) was separated but not divorced from her husband (Cathoic church marriage of course) and he was still giving her a million a month. I didn t have the Spanish that I have now....so it took me a while to finally understand everything....

And she wanted me to live with her and one daughter, she wouldn t introduce me to the parents and she had NO idea of what the ex husband would do or not do once he  found out she was living with a grngo.

but once I had al the details...

NEXT!

I ll confess, I haven t  always dated women who were in my profile! jejejeje!!!!! But is been a hell of a learning curve! 

[Traveler]

Well, the story is weird, hillarious and sad at the same time.  After all, it is the land of "magic realism" as Gabriel Garcia Marquez calls the style of his work.
 
As for the original post, well, I am in mid-30s and don't have children yet.  I definitely would prefer a woman with no children, but have realized that saying no to women with children will dramatically cut my dating pool, so at some point I have learned to accept that the vast majority of datable women will have them.  Let me explain why. 
 
Aside from the fact that the vast majority of the fathers have abandoned those kids (so there will not be any issues of them or their family mingling with my woman), saying no to single mothers like I said leaves very few women available for me to date.  Let's do the math.  Let's say I am interested primarly in the women who are 24-28 and would consider 20% of women attractive enough to date.  (The ones younger are a bit too young for me to get along with, and are too much into partying, at least in my experience.  And the ones who are older, even if they still look good now will definitely start aging soon.)  Anyway, let's be optimistic and say that 20% are attractive enough to date.  Of the total number of Colombian women who are 24-28 I would say only 20% don't have children yet, and I am being optimistic also.  That leaves only 4% of women to date.  Then let's say of the total number of women who are 24-28 maybe 20% have education and skills to have some sort of a professional job.  That leaves only 0.8% of women who are 1) reasonably attractive, 2) have no kids and 3) have a job and/ or education (so they are not looking for a relationship primarily for financial support).  Now of these 0.8% women some are married or otherwise in a committed relationship, not interested in me, I might not like their personality, might not want or be able to have children, our goals and tastes might be opposite, some might not be interested in a serious relationship, might be lesbian, might not want to have a relationship with someone who is not Catholic, etc.  Is it possible to hit the jackpot and find an ideal perfect woman?  Of course!  But it's like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. 
 
So, I figured that I have to be ready to compromise on something.  It can not be in the looks department, it cannot be in the personality deparment either, so I have learned to accept single mothers.  There are benefits to those women too:  they are more grounded in my experience, and you can see immediately if they are good mothers (most colombianas are great mothers in my opinion).  But those women are going to be extremely attached to the kid who often is used to sleep with them, the logistics are difficult as the kid needs a babysitter, and of course in a relationship I will be expected to take care of this child financially aside from being a father figure.  I honestly feel that if I meet a woman that is beautiful, loving, treats me very well, who I get along with, and whose goals and tastes match well with mine, I think I can accept her child and the responsibilities that will come with him or her.

[Traveler]

As for Alabama saying that him having kids was almost an advantage, it was not.  It means that the women you met liked you and were interested in you, and decided to accept that you have children.  And virtually all Colombian men your age have children, so they are used to that.  Also they saw that you were a type of a man who does not abandon his kids, and that probably impressed them.
 
For example, women generally do not like short guys.  But if a woman meets such a guy and either wants to be with him for ulterior motives, or grows to like him for his other qualities, she will tell him that either she doesn't mind guys being short, or that she likes guys being short.

[dennislevy]

Traveler

There ARE single women between 24 and 28 without kids who meet ALL of your specs.

One is named Ana Maria, she lives in Cali and she s 26. the other is named Marisol, she is 25  and she lives in Bogota.

Its a short list.......jjejeje!!!!

Of course, phoney names and locations......

But, seriously, if you want to be that demanding with your looks and personality specs...thats on you.

Three questions.
Do you WANT to be a father to a Colombian child?  Do you really WANT that?
Are you willing to accept that a Colombian woman with a child  is a complex triangular relationship?
What are YOU bringing to the table?


 

[Traveler]

Dennis,
 
I never said women without kids don't exist, just no more than 20% of women over 24-25.  And why should I rather compromise on the girls looks and personality?  For me the looks are important, and even more so is the girl's personality.  Do we get along?  Does she treat me the way I want to be treated?  Is she capable of loyalty?  Is she capable of accepting and forgiving me when necessary?  And most importantly, do our goals, interests and tastes match well?  For example, my ex is a great person, and we are still good friends.  We loved each other.  And to my eyes she is a knockout.  However, we just could not get along on anything!  I wanted to live in Miami, and she wanted to live in Ft. Lauderdale.  I wanted a condo, she wanted a house.  I wanted to paint walls in pastel colors, she said it gives her a headache and she wants the walls white.  I like steak, and she eats salads.  I drive a manual, and she wanted an automatic.  Etc, etc, etc.  As for looks, my ex before her is a great person, treated me very well, liked everything I liked or at least tried her best to, but I just didn't feel chemistry with her.  I was angry at myself, tried to, but couldn't.  In other words, it's hard enough to find a girl that you have chemistry with and that you get along with well, and given the ratio of women with kids in Colombia, disqualifying them outright will make the search tremendously harder.  Otherwise, I would have to go for the 20 year olds.  My experience with colombianas is mostly with colombianas who live in Miami, and maybe the ones who grow up and live in the old country somehow are a lot more mature, but they generally don't strike me as "wife material".
 
Am I ready to be a father to a step child?  Well, it's a difficult question.  I have dated women with kids, and didn't mind the kids except for the logistics of finding babysitters, or the kid getting sick while I was alone with the girl and her babysitter calling and messing up the situation.  However, this was the case here in the States, and given the family ties in Colombia I would imagine the logistics should be a lot easier.  Have I ever been in a situation that I was under an obligation to support the kid or be his surrogate father?  No.  But neither have I been under an obligation towards my own children either since I don't have any.  Does this preclude me from fatherhood in the future?  I think not.
 
I do think that if a man falls in love with a woman, he will accept her the way she is, kids in tow or not.  I have dated two girls with kids, and aside from the logistics issues honestly had no problem with the situation and even enjoyed interacting with them, buying them toys, playing with them, etc.  I realize it's one thing to date a woman with a kid, and another to be married to her.  Since I don't have personal experience to cite, all I can say is I hope I am a man enough for the task.  Again, I am not looking for a woman with child, but I am pragmatic enough to realize that a person must compromise somewhere.

[dennislevy]

OK. that was a nice answer...... and you were honest about saying you realize that dating a woman with kids isn t the same as being a step dad or a father....No it isnt!

You gave a lot of specs of what YOU wanted a woman to do for YOU ...but what are you willing to do for HER, for this Colombian woman with kids or without that you say you want to find.

Understand that if  you DO find a quality girl  WITHOUT  kids between 24 and 28....or whatever....she is going to want to have kids wh you....unless she can t have them......

You can pretty much  take that to the bank, that IS the deal.     

In other words you ve got fairly concrete requirements for her...but you re saying you hope you re MAN enough to step up and accept the responsiiblity...of beign a stepfather or a future dad.

I guess my question...............Are you REALLY READY o do this?

[Traveler]

Dennis,
 
If your question is, do I want to have kids?  Absolutely!  My ex gf has a daughter, and when she was pregnant with her she was alone and sad and abandonada, so she has decided not to have any more.  When we were dating she did tell me that, but I discarded this as BS - I never before met a colombiana who seriously didn't want to have children.  But no matter how hard I tried, I could not convince her to change her mind.  The fact that the kid was always answering 'no' when we asked her playfully if she wanted a sister didn't help either  .  And on top of that the differences in our tastes and aspirations that I mentioned before got too much, so I had to admit failure on this.  I was in love with the girl, and it was hard, but she deserves someone who will make her happy.  There are plenty of guys out there who would be happy to date a girl who doesn't want to have a child with them, and who will decide for them what kind of a car they should buy and what color it should be.
 
Like I said, I am 35, and definitely want to have a family.  Otherwise, if I just wanted to pasarlo bien with a girl, I would not even care if we get along, or if she has kids, or whether she wants any in the future.
 
As for my qualities, well, I am not perfect, but I think I am good person.  I am very warm and kind to people in my life, loyal, someone who can forgive and understand others, not jealous or possessive.  I think I could be a good father, but so think probably all the other guys out there.  Am I ready for the lifetime committment?  Well, I never had to make one, but I certainly hope I will be a man enough to handle it.

[dennislevy]

OK, here is some advcie,...you may not like it...but here goes.

Ramp up your age from 24 until 28...to 29 until early 30s and no kids....tell women you want to get  married and have a family...look for educated and professional women

you should get some serious traction.

Dennis





 

[Traveler]

Dennis,
 
Your advice is duly noted; however, why would I look for a woman in early 30s if I can get a girl years younger than her?  Women do age, and even though I have met some women in early 30s who are super hot, they will age as well.  I want to find a woman to have a family with, not just to have a long-term relationship for a few months or years and then upgrade when she starts to get too old.
 
Also, women with no kids into their 30s are not very common in Colombia, and I would even frankly consider it a red flag given the country's cultural norms.  That would likely be a woman who is devoting her life to material success and carreer, and having a family will be an afterthought.  If she will finally have kids, she will be doing it out of duty, and will probably hire a nanny, and pursue whatever she is pursuing - living life for herself.  Most likely, her primary goal in life is NOT a family where she is playing the role of a traditional wife/ mother.  There is a TON of women like that in the US.  Why would I go to another country looking for what is oversupplied back home?  It's really not a problem to meet an employed woman in her 30s with no kids in the US.
 
I am not against her working.  I in fact admire a woman who chooses to work to support herself, because frankly a hot woman does not really need to work to get by  .  But I definitely don't want a Western type carreer-minded woman either.  I want someone who is willing to work, but will not cling to her career if she has a chance to devote herself to a family.

[fathertime]

Hey Traveler,


 I thought your position was well reasoned out regarding what you wanted and compromising.  Given what I have read, I would stick to the ladies without children.  You have time and there are quite a few ladies out there.  Now if you find a lady with a child that you just can't live without than that is also a good option. 
Looks were very important to me too when I was looking, and I don't regret that I put that as priority when I was in the wife-hunting phase.  If excellent looks is what you know you need than you gotta go for that trait in a woman!  It really is best if you don't get TOO blinded by excellent looks though!


Good luck,
Fathertime!

[Traveler]

Hey, FT, thanks for chiming in,
 
Looks are important to me, but I would not make a decision to be with a woman solely based on that.  I have done that once, and lived to regret it.      But I do want a woman that excites me not just to talk to or spend time with, but to get to bed with as well.
 
Having said that, all thing being equal I of course would prefer a woman without children.  Probably everyone would as well.

[maritime04]

This sounds more like a wish list, then anything eles. People do not come that way, and relationships are DEF. not made that way.......
 
Why dont you just date women near or around your age group, and see what clicks. then see if a relationship can work. what happend to having fun, common intrests, common goals, and good chemistry. I guess my girl friend has competly turned me into a FAG, so i sound more like a girl then a objective male in search of perfection in women.
 
I hate to sound critical but it seemed you placed all the important factors on looks, personality, youth and no children ect... Dennis is right there were alot of YOUs in your descriptions, and latin lovers are not like that, and the women here despite what they tell you are into it.
 
If you are looking for a sucessful relationship with an decent women (Non intersada), you may have to change your mode of thought and approach toward finding one, my worthless opinion.