Colombia Without the Rose Colored Glasses -

[Micky]

Only my opinion,  based on a limited understanding of the culture,  my point of view and my mental capacity,  or lack thereof.  Some of this is specific,  some sweeping generalizations.

I start with the women since this is the crux of the existence of this board and will save the reader the pain of scanning thru my other rubbish.  I think that any man that is serious about a relationship with a Colombiana can indeed be successful in finding a mate here.  We do not like to say much about the things possibly lacking in ourselves,  but -
One must keep things in a realistic vein.  If a man can not get a date with a "decent" women in the States,  thinking that he can come to Colombia and end up with an "8 - 9 - 10",  that is NOT realistic.  Without going into a list of the many variables that make any of us desirable to the opposite sex,  let us keep it simple and agree to a standard of "all things being equal".  Example,  AlabamaBoy says that "character" is the most important trait he looks for,  we can't argue with him by saying,  "what if she is stupid?".  We agree that her other traits are at least minimally acceptable,  or "all things being equal".  The only "real" problem for a gringo is weeding out the players and/or those not really serious about a relationship.  I do not think that it is ALL that hard,  it seams to me that the scammers here are fairly transparent.  Sure there are "players" that have some serious game,  but I think they are very few.  Meeting women on line or an agency is the most reasonable way to go.  Of course if one has some friends here,  personal introductions are good also.  Any man that is thinking he is going to "rescue/save" a poor Colombian women may want to re-think his position.  There is a saying here that "gringos think they are the last coke in the desert",  that attitude is WORSE than stripped shorts and a plaid shirt.  That being said,  understand arrogant and confident are not the same thing.  Here the shoe is on the other foot,  it is the women that have to compete for the man,  KNOW that.
Women with Children -
There has been more than one guy that has started a relationship that seams ok,  only to run into problems later because of the kid/s.  Find out up front what is the status with the ex/daddy.  It is also not unusual that you are hearing one side of the story,  one point of view.  I have known a couple of guys in this situation,  comes time for the visa app and the women says that the Dad will not sign for the kid/s to move out of the country.  Some is truth,  some is BS.  Since this is not new in Colombia,  deadbeat Dads,  a few years back they made a law that waves the right of the Dad.  If he has not been supporting his kid/s,  a judge will give the mother a waiver that the dad's signature is not needed for the women to move anywhere.  Even at that,  my sister in law had a gringo BF for about a year.  I asked her what if the ex,  S's dad,  will not sign if you move?  She tells me "I will take S and her things and drop them both off with him".  I say you would never move without her.  She says,  of course I wouldn't,  but he would be calling me in two days telling me come and pick her up,  I'll sign.  I am saying,  if there are kid/s make damn well sure that things concerning them are ABSOLUTELY CLEAR way up front.
　
　
　

The Money Thing -
This is hard for several reasons.  To strike a true balance,  at least where money is not THE reason for the relationship,  is complex.  There is YOU,  where is the place that you are comfortable economically?  Is your normal dinner joint a $10 - $30 - $60 a plate place?  Then there is the woman,  what is her economic comfort zone?  Because of the socio/economic levels being so wide apart between developed "Gringo" nations and Colombia,  middle   middle do not = middle.  With a gringo there is the natural (and reasonable) stance of protecting his pocket book,  some Colombianas will think that the man is cheap and making money an issue.  It is a sometimes difficult task for the man to show that he is not cheap AND not a chump.  If you are doing the agency thing,  no reason to bring any kind of gifts at all.  If you have met someone on line certainly bring a gift,  but keep it simple and not exspensive.  If and when a relationship develops is the time to spend on your novia,  NOT before.

The Sex Guy -
Cartagena,  Medellin and Cali,  bring the guys that are just coming to bang the girls.  I do not know about Bogota,  Barranquilla,  Pereira or other cities.  There are the guys that just use pros,  there are the guys that do the club/party/drug scene,  there are the guys that use the on line dating sites AND the guys that use all and any means to get laid.  You want to avoid these people at all costs.  They generally hang out in the same areas of any given city.  I personally do not care what any consenting adults do,  that is their business,  not mine,  but they do NOTHING to promote the image and good will of gringos that have respect for Colombians and the culture.  It is incumbant upon you to make certain that you are not seen as this type of gringo.  Believe me,  Colombian women know that there are gringos that come here just to get laid,  they are NOT stupid.
Better,  Far from Finished -
Yes it is safe to travel just about anywhere in the country.  Sure the economy is good,  growing and the future looks good.  Night and day from just 8/10 years ago,  but there is still a HUGE part of the business/economic/social sector that is part of,  dependant on the drug trade.  It does not matter,  major city,  secondary city,  pueblo,  nor region.  It can be part of production,  processing,  supply route,  finance,  protection or where "big daddy" lives.  There is so much cash money involved,  it is staggering.  The money has to be cleaned and there is a lot of it,  ergo,  there is a ton of drug in "legit" businesses.  I only bring this up to let one know,  just because the "nice" guy you met is a cattle rancher,  and he IS a cattle rancher,  does not mean he is only a cattle rancher.  There are still plenty of cops on the pad and still plenty of hitmen.  One of the reasons for not seeing much public confrontation,  think twice about if it is really important to tell someone to go F themselves.

I could babble more,  only kidding,  that's more than enough

Micky

[Researcher]

  Good post Micky.Definitely food for thought for newbies as well as the well travelled.


       Researcher

[jb]

Micky

extremely helpful.  Thank you!
i was actually bumbed you stopped there,
look forward to more if you feel like it.

[benjio]

You don't even reply to post like this gentlemen...just sit back, let the camp fire burn, take a sip from your whiskey flask, puff your cigar and listen closely to a true veteran telling you how it really is....

[whitey]

I know what you mean Benjio ... Micky's post was so good, anything I write will pale by comparison ... but I guess I'm not going to let that stop me from making a couple comments ...

The Money Thing -
This is hard for several reasons.  To strike a true balance,  at least where money is not THE reason for the relationship,  is complex.  There is YOU,  where is the place that you are comfortable economically?  Is your normal dinner joint a $10 - $30 - $60 a plate place?  Then there is the woman,  what is her economic comfort zone?  Because of the socio/economic levels being so wide apart between developed "Gringo" nations and Colombia,  middle   middle do not = middle.  With a gringo there is the natural (and reasonable) stance of protecting his pocket book, some Colombianas will think that the man is cheap and making money an issue.  [/color]It is a sometimes difficult task for the man to show that he is not cheap AND not a chump. 
[/font][/size]

Very well said Micky, and this is indeed a complex issue.  At times it can feel like a tightrope walk ... sometimes you're on balance, other times you can overcompensate and fall ... especially early on in a relationship when trust is still building.

There are many cultural differences with regards to money: who should pay, what should you pay for, how much support (if any) is necessary or reasonable to provide to your novia/wife while in Colombia, how much support (if any) is necessary or reasonable to provide to the family, etc. 

Most guys don't have any problem paying for everything while dating in Colombia, but the issue can become much more complex if there are expectations outside of the normal dating expenses such as meals, drinks, movies, cab fares, etc ... 

There are also external pressures that can come to bear ... family members and/or friends interfering and comparing stories of what you are doing, to stories of other gringos and what they have done. 

It sure doesn't help that some guys come down to Colombia and start throwing around money like crazy.  In many cases, I think they feel the need to "buy" the woman and her family, to compensate for other shortcomings that they may have ... be that age, personality, insecurity, or just the fact that they can't or won't travel very often and send money instead. 

The Sex Guy -
Cartagena,  Medellin and Cali,  bring the guys that are just coming to bang the girls.  I do not know about Bogota,  Barranquilla,  Pereira or other cities.  There are the guys that just use pros,  there are the guys that do the club/party/drug scene,  there are the guys that use the on line dating sites AND the guys that use all and any means to get laid.  You want to avoid these people at all costs.  They generally hang out in the same areas of any given city.  I personally do not care what any consenting adults do,  that is their business,  not mine,  but they do NOTHING to promote the image and good will of gringos that have respect for Colombians and the culture.  It is incumbant upon you to make certain that you are not seen as this type of gringo.  Believe me,  Colombian women know that there are gringos that come here just to get laid,  they are NOT stupid.

These guys really piss me off ... as Micky says, not because they want to get laid while in Colombia, but because of the way their behavior reflects on the rest of us.

The only time I am ever around another gringo in Colombia (except for one coffee date with Dennis ... haha) is in airports and planes.  Many, many times I've been in earshot or been regaled (in public!) by some a-hole's stories of his conquests in Colombia.  The last time was this 60-something year old clown in line at the ticket counter who was telling another 60 something year old couple about his apartment in Barranquilla and his 20-something year old "girlfriend" that he comes down from Florida every month or two to visit.

I don't begrudge the guy having a young girlfriend (although the age gap is a little creepy to me), and they are obviously both getting what they want out of the relationship ... but what ticks me off is guys like this have no idea how sleazy they are bragging in public.  Save it for your drinking buddies back home!

[Micky]

Any comments,  by anyone are applicable,  that is why we are here,  no?  I most certainly have a ton of respect for both BenJ and Whitey.  Two different guys,  both the same in love and respect for the culture and country that is Colombia.  Both have right reason and logic.  It is difficult at times on these boards,  we have a tendency to confuse the simplicity of the Latin day to day life with the complexity of the Latin culture.  As Whitey replied to the "money" part of the post,  we tend to make our generalizations,  but the reality of the true application is very complex,  or at least,  can be.  If we waited until we truly understood the culture,  none of us would ever leave NA.  Kudos to both BenJ and Whitey,  very good and honest men who show the best of "Gringos" in a love affair with Colombia.

Micky

[beginthebeguin]

Good observations all. One of the reasons why, when I was economically forced out of suburbia, was the impresison I got that North American suburbia is devoid of both culture and the social warmth that accompanies it. So after years of living in suburbia, I never really 'fought like hell' to get back to it. Time will tell if my desire to go to a country like Colombia will be a change for the better.

[AndyLee]

Good observations all. One of the reasons why, when I was economically forced out of suburbia, was the impresison I got that North American suburbia is devoid of both culture and the social warmth that accompanies it. So after years of living in suburbia, I never really 'fought like hell' to get back to it. Time will tell if my desire to go to a country like Colombia will be a change for the better.

For me it was a definite change for the better.....I live in a small city of 25,000 now for only two weeks and already I'm making new friends. I even know the names of some of the dogs and cats on my street and a couple of the horses. It reminds me so much of the little village where I grew up in the Ozarks of Missouri where everyone knew which kids belonged to which family and they all watched out for us and if we did something wrong we'd either get a whack right then or they would tell our folks first chance they got.
Here people sit on the verandas at night and visit with passersby and each other while the kids play in the street or on the green at the end of the street. I would say the quality of life is many times better than the US suburb I used to live in.

[Researcher]

         What AndyLee mentioned is something I really love about Colombia and the Latin culture in general.The people are closer to one another and not so obsessed with money or possessions like gringos.I felt like I fit in better when I visited Mexico and Colombia.

       Researcher

[Flyboy777]

Micky


This is a great thread... and to be honest, maybe one that you could also post over in the newbie section.    Would be a great intro for the guys just learning about this forum... like me!!   


FB777

[dennislevy]

Mickey has nailed it pretty much.

I ve been in a lot of different places in Colombia, in elegant estrato 6 apartments and houses in Bogota and Medellin and Cali to humble homes built on slabs in Riohacha and  Maicao in La Guajira, in elegant hotels in Bogota to 20,000 a night bunk beds in hostals in different cities, on small l fincas of women friends to  to shopping malls in umpteen cities. Ive eaten things and have developed tastes for capon, caldo de costillo, empenadas, rice and beans and Ive slept on all aualities of matresses and dozed on beaches from west of Riohacha to Tumaco. 

A lot of Colombia is repetitive....in the large towns and cities the same large strores and brands, Arturo Calli, Carrefours, Exito, Crepes and Waffles, 

In addtion Postbon, Malta, statues of Bolivar (and pigeons) in every decent sized public park, kids playing soccer on small to regular sized fields of every size, men sitting on white plastic charis outside of cafea of every quality and drinking beer, women walking on dirt streets  in pueblos with flip flops, young girls with pregnant bellies and sad faces, people in the streets hawking whatever they can, people standing outside of crowded Catholic church doors on a Sunday and listening to the mass.

There are places I ve not been in......night clubs, whorehouses, and no where associated with the drug culture,  I don t sit in cafes to drink.....I walk in to buy soda and chips and i leave.

But always I listen to people talk and I watch people s behavior. And if someone after chatrting with me after a couple of minutes in Spanish asks ¿de donde eres? (where are you from?), I say soy de Ibague o soy de Cartagena, I laugh and  then I say adiivine...... Guess!   And what I now get after  almost three years in Colombia is......France, israel, Tuirkey Argentina, Brazil one guy in Monteria guessed I was form Romania!  That tells me that altough my Spanish still isnt 100% letter perfecxt......Im no longer seen as a guy from the US or Canada.

If there is anything I can impart....is if you are going to be here for any extended period of time....do it quitely, live under the radar, be polite to everyone, especially police......I must say buenas, caballeros------ to policemen 10 times a day......

you will not change how things get done or not get done in Colombia.....I still get frustrated.....but the culture is profoundly different...women see interactions with men (which is what mos tof us want to knoiw)  in a totally different way.....

I know I sound like a broken reocrd...but if you want to particpate or understand how people think and how they live....learn to speak Spanish.............. for me it has been the key to everything Ive  done and seen off the gringo trail.