(Long) response to my article/your posts

[Felicity]

Hello to all of you,

I haven’t been on Planet love for a long time, but happened to check in today and saw that there were posts about an article I wrote.  Yes, as some of you have said, this was a “scholarly” journal in which I was interested in understanding the larger processes at play in setting in motion so many men looking for wives in Latin America.  In revising for the book, I do take some of your comments to heart – one of which I think is completely valid – the fact that I did not discuss in as much detail as I should have the loneliness, desire for companionship, and desire for love that is the first and foremost reason for searching for a different kind of wife in Latin America.  What is interesting about this is that this is not the reason that the over 50 men I interviewed gave me for going to Latin America, although this is true for many.  I had hoped that the quote in the beginning of the essay about how “Jason” felt alienated and detached from his surroundings in the U.S. would help to frame the argument in this direction.  I realize now that this warrents much more of a discussion.  I do think that if in fact many of you turned to Latin America out of feelings of loniness and the desire to find a happy marriage, we need to break down all the factors that lead to lonliness (which U.S. women should not be blamed for all of them - we also live in a capitalist culture bent on working way too many hours, many of you have migrated to different cities/areas to work and there are fewer opportunities and time to meet people (this is also more difficult as we age), the fact that youth is so over-valued in our culture, and that looks and one’s status do matter for both men and women in the U.S. in a way that may differ from Latin America b/c many women assume one comes from high standard of life from the get-go).  

I am also curious to know what you would define as a happy marriage and whether you have discussed the needs you have with those of your prospective and/or wives?  Do they match, do they change, are you willing to be flexible with some of your requirements?  As I continue my interviews with couples who have married, I have found that those couples who are flexible and open to the needs of each other work out the best.  Of course there are complex reasons that go into the success of a marriage that are too numerous to detail here, but for those who get engaged quickly, without having spent a great deal of time together can be swayed more by the fantasy of the other than the complex realities that play a role into why women themselves want to marry and move to the U.S.  I have written an article about women from Mexico I interviewed at the TLC tours if anyone is interested I could send you a copy.  Basically, women were more interested in finding someone who was honest, hard working, someone who would value and respect her (which they contrasted to Mexican men).  It takes getting to really understand a woman, her background and culture to even begin to understand what it might mean to respect all her ideosyncracies.  What I have found ironic at times, is that while men want a woman who is different from U.S. women, there is also the tendency to want to impose Western standards of living/thinking on her that can be hurtful b/c some women take this as disrespecting who she is, her values, and culture.  

Lastly, in the article, I was hoping that by raising all of the larger processes at play that are inevitably part of the structure that contributes to why people perceive women as getting “more bang for your buck” would make one pause to think about the incredible ineqalities that make these kinds of relationships more difficult (although definitely not impossible) and that are important to understand so one can approach these relationships with more sensitivity as to how this history can influence the most personal aspects on desire, love, marriage, and the rest.

[soltero]

Hello Felicity,

I, for one, am glad that you have returned to discuss this further. I hope that you are received in such a way that there can be a civil discourse here regarding this subject, and that you stay long enough for that to happen.

I feel that there is an inherent underlying tone to articles such as yours and others that I have read that assume that American women are put up as the ideal, and that there must be some sort of rejection or other negative effect that causes men to look elsewhere for wife material. While for some, this may be that case, it is not for all. Also, there seems to be another underlying tone which is related, but distinct, that foreign women are in some way inferior, and they are being sought by those that can't do any better. During your research, did you happen to come across any individuals that happen to choose Latinas as better wives out of respect for the women and culture and under the opinion that they would make superior spouses and seek them out for that reason?

[doombug]

Lastly, in the article, I was hoping that by raising all of the larger processes at play that are inevitably part of the structure that contributes to why people perceive women as getting “more bang for your buck” would make one pause to think about the incredible ineqalities that make these kinds of relationships more difficult (although definitely not impossible) and that are important to understand so one can approach these relationships with more sensitivity as to how this history can influence the most personal aspects on desire, love, marriage, and the rest.

The underlying message of your essay (and this comment above) is that American males haven't the capacity to "relate."  Everyone is seemingly cast in the same light:  Brutishly selfish, one-dimensional, closed-minded, culturally ignorant/inflexible,... basically, modern-day reincarnations of "las conquistadors."  (Recall your analogy of the white American male "colonizing" brown-skinned foreign women.)  Are white males also re-colonizing a predominantly white Eastern Europe?  You may have interviewed fifty males who'd used an agency, but they are hardly representative of the overall pool of males who develop an interest in international relationships.  Who could predict the occasion in their life when they suddenly find themselves attracted to a particular person, from a particular place, for a particular reason?   

[flipflop]

Ive always followed my heart when it comes to women. The analysis suggested above never occurred to me whether searching for a girl here or anywhere else in the world. Im a love at first sight sweep ya off your feet romantic. If a partner does that to me then I am willing to do what it takes to make her happy.

I was seeing a woman a weekend on various persoanl sites, American women. It was alot of fun probably the best summer of my life. My searches covered an area 250 mile radius from the town I live in. A very nice Asian women came up in my search one day and I emailed her. She explained to me in her first e mail that she was from the PI. Until then the thought of dating and marrying a foreign woman never crossed my mind. The rest is history

Why does it have to be this over analyzed, stigmitized, psychological therapy session about what motivates a man to seek a woman?

[Felicity]

In writing on this topic, one has to admit that there are already many preconceived ideas driven by the popular media about why men go far from where they live to seek out a romantic partner or a wife (and most of these depictions are negative).  I was trying to create a complex analysis that acknowledges that yes, if anyone took the time to analyze the marriage web sites that it is apparent that most sites problematically reinforce (neocolonial) stereotypes of how men should perceive going to Latin America as a virginal paradise where women are hypersexual, waiting for you to rescue her, traditional, and family-oriented, etc.  Well, just as men who go to L.Amer. are quite diverse, so too are the women, many of which do not fit these fantasies.  

In response to Soltero, who I appreciate the open invitation to dialogue with, I have worked hard to demonstrate that neither the men nor the women are losers or inferior in any way.  But what I think can be dangerous is that while the majority of men I interviewed and talked with have agreed that Latina women would make superior wives in comparison with U.S. women, when I ask what makes them superior, this is where things get more tricky.  If one says that Latinas are superior because they are more committed to the family then, yes, I think there is more emphasis on the family in Latin America than in the U.S.  But if one says, that this means that by having traditional values it means that women like to serve their husbands, they like to stay home, cook, clean, and the rest of it then you may be dissappointed to know that women are oftentimes complex about their desires in life that include a fulfilling home life and sometimes a career or other goals outside the home.  But what I’ve seen is that some guys feel like if a woman doesn’t abide by strictly “traditional” values, then she has become too Westernized, too much like U.S. women.  The fact is that the roles for women in Latin America have changed dramatically in the last 20 years, many women are the main financial contributers to their families, and many have careers that are important to them.  Some may not want a career and that’s fine.  I have seen many men make assumptions about women without having spent much time with them that may dissapoint them later on.  Women are very quick to pick up on those who assume women are superior b/c of their family values, but do not respect her opinion about how to run the household, how to raise the children, or even about her ideas about the world more generally.  So if wanting a Latina for a bride means that one cannot understand the complexity of her as a full person, then there can be many challenges ahead.    

[soltero]

Felicity,

Thanks for your reply. I personally fall in the category of those who respect the culture's center on family. Many American women (and men for that matter) that I have come in contact with seem to be entrenched in the belief that marriage is temporary at best, and go into the situation already planning their exit. Personally, if that's all there is to it, I would rather stay single. I have dated women from various cultural backgrounds and nationalities, and I have found looking back, that the Latinas were more of what I would call "wife material" (for me)than any other. That is what prompted me to go to the source, so to speak, and I have not regretted my decision.

As far as making decisions, I feel that there needs to be some structure with both parties input being respected and considered. Responsibilities should be agreed upon and discussed from the beginning, and the roles within the family should be clearly discussed and understood.

I don't see what should be so difficult to understand about I am willing to do A, B, and C, and I expect you to do X, Y, and Z. If you want to switch it around, it's fine, as long as it's clear who's responsibility it is and it gets done. I have no problem with shifting what may be viewed as traditional roles as long as the belief in the tradition of marriage itself is as strong for my partner as it is for me, and I see the probability of encountering that increasing in SA.

[utopiacowboy]

Ive always followed my heart when it comes to women. The analysis suggested above never occurred to me whether searching for a girl here or anywhere else in the world. Im a love at first sight sweep ya off your feet romantic. If a partner does that to me then I am willing to do what it takes to make her happy.

I was seeing a woman a weekend on various persoanl sites, American women. It was alot of fun probably the best summer of my life. My searches covered an area 250 mile radius from the town I live in. A very nice Asian women came up in my search one day and I emailed her. She explained to me in her first e mail that she was from the PI. Until then the thought of dating and marrying a foreign woman never crossed my mind. The rest is history

Why does it have to be this over analyzed, stigmitized, psychological therapy session about what motivates a man to seek a woman?

I agree with you! I lived close to Mexico so I was on amigos.com thinking that maybe there were a few Mexicanas close by who could be interesting. It was a complete accident that I saw my wife's profile on the site - I never would have looked for a Colombiana.

[flipflop]

Its the stereo types, you people cant get passed the stereo types, the stigma the MOB BS. Life is a struggle and like ole forrest Gump says ya never know what ya get. All this planning and crystal balling is useless as somethings ya have to leave to your higher power (see the serenity prayer)

All I know is this woman made me happy and she is beautiful. Early in my second stint through college I was into some complex fractions in tech math, badly stuck. I threw the book into the corner pissed off to take a break. 45 minutes later she comes to me with the solution to the problem. I was FUNKING dumbfounded and immedately got her on the road to GED, Pell grant, and shes about 20 credits away from a bachelors in accounting, straight A's 4.0. None of this was in the "plan"

Aside from working I do 75lbs of laundry a week and spend alot of time with the children facillitating her education. She does alot of cooking and cleaning. As a team we are struggling but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

We dont have time to contemplate this crazy BS about gender roles, control in the relationship and cultural congruency.

[Ray]

We dont have time to contemplate this crazy BS about gender roles, control in the relationship and cultural congruency.

Amen to that!

Well said flipflop...

[Patrick]

Since we rarely get the opportunity to discuss this topic with an author, I thought it better to keep this thread flame-free.

[sean126]

My hat is off to you Patrick.  I agree.  You showed good judgment and foresight.

[Ken]

Hello Felicity, despite your thorough investigations this will come as a surprise to you. The only reason men over forty go to Colombia is to meet, be with and maybe marry women (girls) half their age. At least the meeting and being with parts are easy since the employed women they are likely to meet (Colombia has a twenty percent or so unemployment rate) earn a salary of  $170 a month while the average for a North American coming to meet them is $4000 a month. With these figures which Colombian women are well aware of it’s not hard to see why a middle aged divorcee with a big paunch and not much hair can acquire star status with the chiquiteca set within an hour or so of arriving at Alfonso Bonilla. Mention of "family values" and "traditional rolls" is pura paja.    

[utopiacowboy]

Hello Felicity, despite your thorough investigations this will come as a surprise to you. The only reason men over forty go to Colombia is to meet, be with and maybe marry women (girls) half their age. At least the meeting and being with parts are easy since the employed women they are likely to meet (Colombia has a twenty percent or so unemployment rate) earn a salary of  $170 a month while the average for a North American coming to meet them is $4000 a month. With these figures which Colombian women are well aware of it’s not hard to see why a middle aged divorcee with a big paunch and not much hair can acquire star status with the chiquiteca set within an hour or so of arriving at Alfonso Bonilla. Mention of "family values" and "traditional rolls" is pura paja.    

Maybe not. My wife is just six years younger than me. Her salary in Colombia was about $700 a month.

[flipflop]

I apologize to Felicity for getting out the flame thrower I tend to post in the tone in which I would say something. I stand by the content however because I believe the premise of these discussions to be inaccurate. Ugly american, fat bald loser who cant hold his own when confronted with the challenge of an American woman. MOB desperate, starving, green card shark without the moral bearing to resist selling herself like a whore to the first guy with money who comes along

[utopiacowboy]

I apologize to Felicity for getting out the flame thrower I tend to post in the tone in which I would say something. I stand by the content however because I believe the premise of these discussions to be inaccurate. Ugly american, fat bald loser who cant hold his own when confronted with the challenge of an American woman. MOB desperate, starving, green card shark without the moral bearing to resist selling herself like a whore to the first guy with money who comes along

I agree with you. I am not fat or bald and I have no trouble attracting American women. In fact I don't really have anything against American women. There may be a few couples who fit the stereotype but I think most of us do not.

[EbonyPrince]

UC wrote:

I agree with you. I am not fat or bald and I have no trouble attracting American women. In fact I don't really have anything against American women. There may be a few couples who fit the stereotype but I think most of us do not.

I agree that the article seems filled with a bunch of opinionations and generalizations, thus I haven't really extended myself in responding to it.  It appears that she is set on believing and trying to justify her beliefs like a lot of people.  That's fine as long as I am doing my thang, it doesn't bother me.

It is so funny how many guys that I hear (in this case my barber) talking about the same issues regarding AW.  I just had my haircut today, and he brought up the conversation without and coercion from me.  I think that Felicity should expand her base of people that she is speaking to and maybe also include guys that have AW and aren't happy with them.  I too don't have anything against AW, but I feel a lot of them want something that they themselves do not possess.  A lot of them also refuse to step up their game for the perfect catch.  As I told my barber, I refuse to settle.  I spent 13 years of my life settling.  Now I am just too old to deal with that BS, although I am open to just having a good time in the interim.

Anyway to sum, I too do not fit in her broad, general category.  Unfortunately she hasn't spoken to me either.  Oh well...I won't lose any sleep over it.

[doombug]

I too don't have anything against AW, but I feel a lot of them want something that they themselves do not possess.  A lot of them also refuse to step up their game for the perfect catch.  As I told my barber, I refuse to settle.  I spent 13 years of my life settling.  Now I am just too old to deal with that BS, although I am open to just having a good time in the interim.

Most bodacious commentation.

[doombug]

Hello Felicity, despite your thorough investigations this will come as a surprise to you. The only reason men over forty go to Colombia is to meet, be with and maybe marry women (girls) half their age.  

Why would this surprise her?  You took the words right out of her mouth.

By the way, I too met none of your parameters.  

[Ken]

U Good going! Must have been something along these lines?:

- Ejecutivo de Cuenta empresarial
Empresa de Telecomunicaciones Requiere ejecutivos de ventas para asesorar empresas en soluciones de internet banda ancha y mantener los clientes existentes Hombres o Mujeres con experiencia en asesoria comercial, preferiblemente de tecnologia, a nivel empresarial. Persona Recursiva, con excelentes habilidades de comunicacion y negociacion, excelente presentacion personal y un marcado interes por las ventas. Se requiere Conocimientos en Internet a nivel Tecnico.
 
Localidad: Cali - Valle
Salario: $1800.000 con comisiones
 

[Ken]

Doom I'm sorry your income doesn't reach the median but that's no reason to lose heart. There are plenty of chicas descomplicadas to choose from. Also I didn't say you have to be bald with a paunch to score only that you could. Of course you don't meet those parameters. No one of the hundreds on this board does with the sole exception of Montrealer.

[doombug]

Also I didn't say you have to be bald with a paunch to score only that you could. Of course you don't meet those parameters. No one of the hundreds on this board does with the sole exception of Montrealer.

Good boy, Kenny.  You've admitted half of your errors, now just work on those economic figures.

[Ken]

Tsk tsk looks like irony just goes right over your head.