Well, that caught me off guard... (Religion)

[Bob_S]

Wouldn't bother me. I went to a Catholic Private Elementary School. I came to my own conclusions about faith at age 14/15.

I've known a few avowed atheists who bit their tongue and held their nose and sent their kids to parochial schools.  Allowing their kids to endure a brief period of "Bible Study" in class was viewed as a necessary sacrifice to get a better overall quality of education than was provided by their local public school (screw-all) system.

[bcc_1_2]

I've known a few avowed atheists who bit their tongue and held their nose and sent their kids to parochial schools.  Allowing their kids to endure a brief period of "Bible Study" in class was viewed as a necessary sacrifice to get a better overall quality of education than was provided by their local public school (screw-all) system.

I didn't think of that. The public schools in my area are good, but I suppose elsewhere to get away from drugs, gangs, and just a [snip]ty system private school might be the only option. A rational person would have to agree that some scary stories aren't nearly as bad as having your kid in a rough public school system.

I noticed Woody wrote going to catholic school really didn't bother him. I have to admit going to religious education class once a week really didn't impact me in a dramatic way either. But for kids that took it all seriously (old testament has some crazy [snip] in in it) it did have an impact.

I really do wonder if Woody and myself are in the minority. They do teach scary stories we know not to be true as true, scare the devil into kids, and frankily it might have more of an impact on the more sensative children out there. I mean while I was daydreaming in class or playing tackle football in the yard without a care in the world I would be remiss in forgetting the more sensative kid worried he's going to hell for accidently tossing a ball into the neighbor's window.

Wait... what am I saying... plz everyone send your kids to catholic school... especially your daughters... no reason... forget I said anything... everyone carry on.

[jm21-2]

I've talked with a few Catholic priests out here who've said west coast Catholics are pretty much considered protestants by east coast and European Catholics. I don't think the hellfire and brimstone teachings would fly with parents here. But I would never want to send my kids to private school anyways. Lose the tax dollars and more likely than not your kid ends up a total snob. Now if they put in a charter school system and there were some interesting options that would be nice....

[Ray]

Now if they put in a charter school system and there were some interesting options that would be nice....

You guys don't have charter schools up there? They are very popular down here in SoCal, except with the commie teacher's union... 

Ray

[Woody]

I've known a few avowed atheists who bit their tongue and held their nose and sent their kids to parochial schools.  Allowing their kids to endure a brief period of "Bible Study" in class was viewed as a necessary sacrifice to get a better overall quality of education than was provided by their local public school (screw-all) system.

Bingo. My kids will have the best education available, even if that means a Catholic school. Charter would be preferable, but I am willing to go the extra mile to make sure that they have an advantage over their peers.

[z_k_g]

I've talked with a few Catholic priests out here who've said west coast Catholics are pretty much considered protestants by east coast and European Catholics. I don't think the hellfire and brimstone teachings would fly with parents here. But I would never want to send my kids to private school anyways. Lose the tax dollars and more likely than not your kid ends up a total snob. Now if they put in a charter school system and there were some interesting options that would be nice....

Guys,

I attended Catholic Schools from grades 1 to 12, A Catholic College for undergrad, and did my graduate study at a Catholic Institution.  All in the deep south.  

I never ever had a "hellfire and brimstone" teaching.  

Most of my classes, if not all were taught by nun (in habits) and priests.   In college I had more lay teachers, but still didn't experience any of that sort of "backward" instruction.

I was an alter boy 10 years, Lector, and Eucharistic minister in my parish so I was not a distant Catholic at the time.

I'm not sure where you guys are getting this impression from because its simply not the case, your blanket facts about Catholic schools and religious teaching is not accurate.

Or, maybe i'm misinterpreting what you mean by scaring kids with "hell and brimstone" teachings.

Please clarify.

Zulu

[Jhengsman]

Well as a megatrend Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris can see the parade of the Black Nazerene, the self flogging and cruxcifictions at Easter and the religious and Biblical symbols on 70% of the jeepneys and ask why search the Philippines at all?

On the other hand I can point to the abortion rate, the mass weddings conducted by mayors, the mistresses and girlfriends of any man with a job. Also I can see nearly the same rate of women in their early 40s still with the father of their eldest child as in America only they are still married to the "legal husband" and conclude that there are many Christmas and Easter or even wedding and baptism only Christians around if being a weekly or daily Mass attendee is not how you see your future.

[Bob_S]

plz everyone send your kids to catholic school... especially your daughters... no reason... forget I said anything... everyone carry on.

Better your daughters than your sons.  Just sayin', ya know.

[Woody]

Crisis averted. She is SDA. I can live with that.

[bcc_1_2]

I was an alter boy 10 years, Lector, and Eucharistic minister in my parish so I was not a distant Catholic at the time.

I'm not sure where you guys are getting this impression from because its simply not the case, your blanket facts about Catholic schools and religious teaching is not accurate.

Around 5000 priests in the United States during the last half century alone were formally accused of child molestation (since this is a guy issue I can only imagine how many were not accused)... had you been the product of different circumstances your view point would be very different.

I'm merely suggesting that reading the old testament to kids as non fiction is no different than reading hansel and gretel to children as non fiction. Now children if you behave you'll be saved but if you are naughty you'll be cooked and eaten and won't be able to escape. It's just irresponsible is all I'm suggesting.

I wouldn't be making this agrument had not the OP identified himself as an agnostic. Which is why I assumed he was rational an did not believe in killing disobedient children, that the earth was made in a week, or that dinosaurs where ridden by people, so I thought he might eventually take issue with his wife forcing fiction paraded as non-fiction on his young children.

Speaking of college, I attended a private luthern school. Private schools tend to have a religious affiliation. But they are secular education. In science class they teach evolution and if you study religion they admit there is no evidence to support moses parting the red sea, noah's ark, etc.

Ah Woody, lucky she wasn't muslim.

[Jeff S]

Really? You believe the exodus didn't happen?

[bcc_1_2]

Really? You believe the exodus didn't happen?

Jeff, I think a belief is a lack of critical thought. Nothing in the bible is unique. Honestly, I had no idea Christianity was an Egyptian story (myth) until college. I didn’t know it was carved on the pyramid walls. I had no idea the Book of the Dead was a precursor to the Bible. The 3 clips below are fact based and explain why Moses, Jesus, and many others are just characters in stories. The story of Moses is a very common ancient story. It is not unique to the bible. I’d say the clips below accurately outline a fact based argument why some individuals choose to identify themselves as non-believers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjGkRFFBd0A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_E0vfP79yE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyXIeB1qI6w&feature=related

[Colgando]

I am happy for you Woody that you got through this with your girl, you strike me as a solid, level headed dude. (I may be flaming here, but I am going to write it anyways, I have read MUUUCCCHHHH worse in the Flame Room, LOL!)

Just adding my 2 cents because this particular thread has many religious references, I have seen some threads in the archives with religious references, but typically religion is mostly discussed in the spirit of, are you and your girlfriend religiously compatible and that is an important thing to consider and it is important to consider the religious preferences of the country you will be visiting and this all makes sense to me. However, this thread, some posters are bringing various religious tenants to the front and providing their theological or philosophical opinion about them, so I thought I would mention my perspective on religion as it relates to this board.

IMHO, the focus of this board is international dating and I think religion as it relates to being compatible with your girlfriend/wife is timely, also, what the various religious preferences are of different countries and their people is timely, much of this is included in many posts on this thread and that makes sense to me. My view is that brining up various religious tenants or teachings, providing a philosophical or theological opinion or interpretation is out of scope and not particularly useful for the task at hand on this board. It makes sense to me that whatever religious views a person brings to the international dating scene and Planet Love, he is looking for a match that he would be religiously comfortable and compatible with. I enjoy discussing and debating matters of religion and philosophy however, my view is that these discussions are not in scope here. If I was compelled to respond or debate an expressed opinion or interpretation of a religious tenant or teaching, I would do so by PM.

I write this because as a man of faith, my alertness level always rises when philosophical and religious matters are discussed and I am always aware of the environment I am in and the appropriate way to express my faith or lack of it.

Not that it really matters, people can choose to read or not read something, be offended or not be offended, not a big deal at all, but I felt like writing this post, so I did  

[Researcher]

  Yeah, religion is a touchy subject for debate.It's probably best not to get too deep into ones beliefs here on the forum.

     Researcher

[Jhengsman]

Crisis averted. She is SDA. I can live with that.

Well there you go. No worries about infant baptism, the child will make up his own mind later. Can you live without pork or perhaps live with a total vegetarian for health not salvation issues? Can you live with her preparing meals on Friday for the sabbath. No Friday night parties if she extremely devout, but Saturday night and Sunday are free  

She is probably middle of the road since on the scale of things SDA tend to stick to their own more so then Catholics but less so then Muslims. And unlike the other suspect church in this thread there will be no last minute push for you to convert or its off.

[Woody]

Well there you go. No worries about infant baptism, the child will make up his own mind later. Can you live without pork or perhaps live with a total vegetarian for health not salvation issues? Can you live with her preparing meals on Friday for the sabbath. No Friday night parties if she extremely devout, but Saturday night and Sunday are free  

Even if she was strict(she isn't), I could live with that. She may not eat pork, but that wont stop me. Not that pork is a big deal for me. I don't really like bacon (I love the taste, I loathe the grease) and I have porkchops maybe once a month. So giving up pork entirely would be a very small thing for me. Given her family situation, I think the religious laws are more of a thing she follows when it is convenient. I doubt she strictly adheres to any of the SDA rules. (In fact, I know she breaks a few of the more serious ones)

I'll know more in a few days, I am going to dig a bit deeper.

[Jeff S]

I wasn't talking about religious belief, but science. More and more of the actual historical events and places in the old testament are being discovered by advances in archeology. While a lot of the old testament may never be verified, many of the events and places are a matter of historical fact. We can argue all day about the significance of what it says, but to call it all fiction is simply not factual. Jerico existed, and the walls fell down. You can go see it today.

Here are a few more: http://www.truthnet.org/Apologetics/7/

Anyway Woody - see there - your fears are dispelled a bit. My wife's religious practices have changed over the years as she's become more Americanized. Hers are more cultural than religious though in a Western religious sense. It sounds like it isn't a huge issue for her, and as long as she and you are OK with having differences, no reason to throw up a big red flag.

[z_k_g]

Around 5000 priests in the United States during the last half century alone were formally accused of child molestation (since this is a guy issue I can only imagine how many were not accused)...

And your point is?

This is seemingly the new hysteria in America with everyone quoting these "horrific" stats about Catholic priests raping young boys!

I NEVER experienced any abuse, non of the thousands of other students in my age group that I know in my diocese, never experienced any abuse.  After 30+ years no repressed memories or that type of sh*t from any of the hundreds that I know personally.

Like any other church, our diocese was comprised of people who were human!  

Humans need sex and obviously our Bishop(s) did a good job of managing and getting rid of priests or nuns who were preying on his underage student flock.  I'm positive we had some perps, but they were sacked or screened and gotten rid of by management.  

One thing about our Bishop, he didn't take much sh*t from anyone and was a straight shooter.  He would get rid of a priest, Monsignor or nun with the quickness.  He ruled  for almost 50 years with an iron fist and everyone feared, loved and respected him.  I can't speak for other dioceses.

Bottom line, this type of behavior was NOT and IS not unique or indicative of the Catholic Church and was not tolerated everywhere.

You obviously read, listen to and watch popular fiction, otherwise known as our news in the United States.  And your citation of " around 5000" may be low actually.  Men will have sex, not only with boys, but with women.  So whats the news about that, happens every day in and out of the church doors and I really don't find such men having sex or having perversions to be all that shocking.  

The fact is, it wasn't all the priests, but select few.  

bcc...the issue is NOT that boys were molested, but that certain Bishops and Cardinals and possibly the Pope(s) hid the acts and even more heinously, tacitly participated by allowing those priests to continue to have contact with the children.  

This pattern of behavior is criminal and encouraged more abuse by those priest because they were allowed to continue to operate.

This was not a "Catholic" problem as you would indicate by your quote, but a culture problem among the church leaders, like any other large corporation. It was certain management (bishops and cardinals) that should have been reported the crimes and didn't.  If they had nailed the perps it would have ended there!

The reality is this happens today in every church on the planet (and families, Boy Scouts, Elementary and High Schools) and will continue to happen as long as men and women have sex, control peoples minds with religious foolishness, maintain the secrecy of the church corporation, commit high crimes and misdemeanors and cover each others asses!

Zulu

[bcc_1_2]

This was not a "Catholic" problem as you would indicate by your quote, but a culture problem among the church leaders, like any other large corporation.

If only the catholic church got the same treatment as any other large corporation. I'd be completely in favor of that. What would happen to the CEO of a chain of daycare centers that systematically molested and raped children? Especially since there is written documentation (a smoking gun) exposing both knowledge and a cover up by the "CEO".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf5zep5IIh4

[Capstone]

Woody,

It's good to hear that everything seems to have turned out OK with this. Good luck with the girl and I am looking forward to your future trip reports from the Philippines.

[z_k_g]

If only the catholic church got the same treatment as any other large corporation. I'd be completely in favor of that. What would happen to the CEO of a chain of daycare centers that systematically molested and raped children? Especially since there is written documentation (a smoking gun) exposing both knowledge and a cover up by the "CEO".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf5zep5IIh4

Bcc,  

Apparently you don't live in the good ole US of A.  Corporations never get charged or get convicted of Jack Rabbit sh*t.  In our country the corporations have higher value than a life and that's just the way it is dude.

The Catholic Church Corporation got away with the illegal deeds of its employees just like Bear Stearns, BP, GM, Morgan Stanley, Freddie Mac and all the others.

Also, the catholic church is a multi-trillion dollar multinational that has influence in every major country around the globe.  Further, the Catholic church, unlike Islam and other organized crime factions, has its own country, the Vatican, a city state recognized by the UN.  

Countries with Trillions of foreign investment, like the Vatican, can pretty much do what the hell they want to do anywhere on the planet, check your internet for the news (not Fox, CNN or MSNBC) on what is happening in the real world outside of the USA.

If you need more recent proof of this just look at the recent events in the Gulf with BP or the real reason (and no it was not giving loans to poor blacks and Hispanics) behind the behind the near collapse of the USA financial system in 2008.  

China  is the most abusive repressive country on earth.  But as long as Walmart and Wall street lay in bed with the Chinese, they will get away with murder, and we will never hold them accountable for their arming of most of the worlds thugs, i.e. North Korea.

Oh yeah, by the way, talk radio or television is not NEWS, or for that matter FACT.  

Its 100% entertainment and a guys raw OPINION and has little or no place in any intelligent discourse.  Using a shock jocks marketing strategy and sweep week dribble as proof for or against anyone or anything is pretty lame.  

You would be more convincing providing a link to reruns of the Smurfs or Sponge Bob Square Pants, at least you would get more facts and some discussion about some serious social commentary.

If you want to blame anyone for the pervs of the Catholic Church Corp getting away with raping little boys, go no further than the US Government allowing corporations to abuse the duped and woefully brainwashed citizens of this great nation.

Zulu

[thekfc]

The subject of religion is a very touchy / personal subject.
And as with most threads concern religion  - I see this one heading in the direction of .....................

Let us not start a "religion war" here.

[Jedironin]

One more vote to get this thread back on track, please. 

[Ray]

Well, if you guys want to avoid “religious wars” or get this thread back on track, you’ll have to stuff a sock in bcc’s mouth.

He’s been at this same old nonsense for years. He hates religion, especially the Catholic Church, and never passes up an opportunity to trash other folks’ religion or belief system if it doesn’t conform to his own leftist ideology.

His attitude toward religion is typical of a liberal elitist who proclaims that the bible is fiction and insinuates that only an uneducated fool would believe such nonsense. While he accuses believers of a lack of critical thought, he blindly swallows all that leftist garbage that his liberal college professors spoon fed him in school…talk about a lack of critical thought!

He is continually trashing the Catholic Church by bringing up anything from The Crusades, The Inquisition, pervert priests, etc., etc., etc., while his ignorance of the modern Catholic Church and its policies gives him away as an uneducated and uninformed phony ‘expert’ that he thinks he is.

He proclaims his opinions as facts and truth, while looking down his liberal nose at those who disagree with his twisted view of organized religion. I couldn’t care less what bcc believes or doesn’t believe but his arrogant and ignorant rants on what he thinks the Catholic Church is all about only exposes him as an insecure little man who can’t stand to see others happy and contented in their beliefs.

Ray

[bcc_1_2]

He’s been at this same old nonsense for years. He hates religion, especially the Catholic Church, and never passes up an opportunity to trash other folks’ religion or belief system if it doesn’t conform to his own leftist ideology.

Many libertarians are non-believers as well. I don't want to borrow another penny from China or Saudi Arabia. I don't have it out specifically for the catholics. I think all religions are nuts. The muslims would have a bigger beef with me than the Catholics. And you can be offended, that's perfectly within your rights, but you're not going to shut me up by saying the magic word faith. This is what "you" believe. Yea you believe it, and I'm gonna say why its dumb.

I've given modern examples. You mocked me suggesting the crusades. So I gave you a modern version- Blackwater. Indulgences are back... in 2009 not 1609. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html

The real problem is when I ask questions and state facts all you can do is call me an elitist, liberal, fool, hater, etc.

-Ten Commandments are taken outright from Spell 125 in the Aegyptian Book of the Dead
- The Noah's Arc story was taken directly from the Epic of Gilgamesh
- The Story of Moses was taken directly from Sargon of Akkad
- The Story of Jesus is not orginal (Horus, Hrishna, Mithra, its a really long list)

You can talk about any other subject and debate the facts. But with religion facts are ingored and dissenters who don't share your opinion get called names because you simply can't debate them.

Glen Beck calls himself Thomas Paine... literally... watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5qEkWF7HBo

In reality this is Thomas Paine.

"The christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun." - An Essay on the Origin of Free-Masonry, 1803-05

The Founding Fathers' View on Relgion

James Madison

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
                            -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
         -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches

John Adams

"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"
                                   -letter to Thomas Jefferson

"God is an essence that we know nothing of.  Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there  were no religion in it."

Thomas Jefferson

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity.  What has been the effect of coercion?  To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.  To support roguery and error all over the earth."
                             - "Notes on Virginia"

"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
                                -in his private journal, Feb. 1800

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

    "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature.  They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
                                -in Poor Richard's Almanac

"I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."


Of course I could go on . My remarks questioning religion and if exposing small children to it are no different than the quotes you'll find from the founding fathers. Unfortuately instead of intelligent debate you get name calling.