Well, that caught me off guard... (Religion)

[Woody]

Yes, I am going to get flamed for this, I know.......


Well, I have been talking to 'Jen' for a month now. There have been no red flags, until this morning when I hit a brick wall. I'm just a bit stunned at this point, I really don't know what to think about everything, which is why I am bringing this here.

Background: I started talking to 'Jen' two days after I paid up an annual membership on filipinocupid, go figure. Right away, she adds me to Facebook and we start conversing through emails on there(Good for me because I get to see all the pics, good for her for the same reason).

Ten days into conversing, this came to light:

The Sinulog Festival was fun! My family went there to see the people dance in the streets bringing the Santo NiÑo image with them as a sign of faith. Unfortunately for me, I am not a Catholic so it is not much of a significance. I just like the celebration and my family enjoyed it so I tagged along.

Ok, no problem I think. I am a lapsed Catholic turned agnostic, no problem whatsoever with my kids being brought up Catholic. My opinion on Christianity is, meh, whatever. It generally does more good than harm these days. So, not wanting to rock the boat, I softball reply with this:

I was kind of hoping to avoid this until we had developed more of a rapport, but I think this has gone far enough that if one of us was to scare the other off with the subject of religion then it was not going to work anyways.
So, not a Catholic? Don’t worry, I am not judging. I suppose it is my turn to admit that I am not really Catholic either. What am I, you ask? Well, I consider faith to be a deeply personal experience and the relationship every person has with his or her deity to be their private experience. I was raised Catholic, sure. Baptized, but never confirmed. I know my bible better than most people, but I follow a different path. I believe that a man is judged by the contents of his words and actions during his brief existence on this earth. It is not my place to say that there is or is not a higher power. The Catholic belief structure has a lot(not all) of good things to offer from the moral guidance viewpoint in our society, but to believe that the Pope is God’s mouthpiece and is chosen by God seems pretty silly to me. Just look at the history of the Catholic church and you can see that there are a multitude of occasions where very few people would claim that the Pope was doing God’s work.
Now, all that being said, I don’t care what religion(if any) a person follows. The only thing that matters to me is, “Are they a generally good person?” If so, they are OK with me.
Now to follow up: Where do you stand?

(Yeah, like I said, softball. I never SAID Agnostic)

She replies with:

I will try as much as I could to do what I think is morally upright. I am not saying I am perfect because I can never be prefect. I am not saying I am boring because I am a conformist of norms, but I am flexible. I do my thing, you do yours. Religion is an individual freedom, its just a matter of respect.

I answer:

Well, that settles that. I was a bit worried it may be a source of conflict. Obviously I was wrong. I don’t mind being wrong, especially if it is to my benefit. Won’t mention it again!

OK, so at this point I am thinking, "OK, religion is a non issue, she is probably a Protestant or agnostic." No problem, right?

Today, as an off handed remark, this slips:

My family do not have allergies. That's a fact. Unfortunately for me, I have religious restrictions, I am the only one who is in a religion with plenty of religious restrictions. But I won't mind what you are going to cook, for your month long vacation, I will eat what it is that you can cook for us. I do not wish to restrict your cooking that far. =)

That was in reference to me checking if anyone had food allergies. I am a decent cook and she is a terrible one. I am planning on showing her a few things about cooking as well as making a few US style dishes. I was checking that no one would have allergies to things like peanuts, coconuts, tomatoes, etc.

What followed is what has thrown me off guard. Given that statement, combined with previously shying away from discussion and the demographics of the Philippines, leads me to assume she is sort-of-following Halal. So, now I am faced with a problem that I have to confront.

Apparently I am OK with other people's following of faith, but I am NOT OK with having any of MY children indoctrinated into Islam. Call me a hypocrite, but I never seriously considered that eventuality until now. I never had a problem with Catholicism because almost every atheist/agnostic I have ever known is a former Catholic. Catholicism doesn't really bind you in.

Opinions, approaches?

Other than this, everything else has been smooth sailing. I mean seriously guys, everything I laid out about my "perfect match" (except for cooking, that's a trainable skill and she tries) is embodied in this woman. I don't have a problem with her following Islam (which it appears that, if she does, she very loosely follows it), I do have a problem with any of my children being indoctrinated into Islam.

Ma'asalama,
-Woody

[Jedironin]

Did she specify she is Islamic? I think I'd ask for a little more detail before I slammed the door on her. 

Again, not judging, just good communication. 

[Woody]

Did she specify she is Islamic? I think I'd ask for a little more detail before I slammed the door on her. 

Again, not judging, just good communication. 

No, I am going on ass-u-me's right now. I need to broach this subject with her and express what I expressed without slamming the communications door in the process.

[william3rd]

You are a long way from having your children being brought up in a particular religion. However, it is always nice to know where one's frame of reference is. and the followup question of - would you insist that any future children be brought up in any particular religion?

[Honey]

she could be a member of the SDA church (seventh day adventist). they're christians but they don't eat pork and bottom feeders.

[Jeff S]

Yeah - just ask here those two questions. What religious restrictions? and do you insist in raising any future children in that faith? Don't stress out over your own imagination. There's plenty of reality out there to worry about.

Maybe she's Jewish or a quasi vegetarian Buddhist.

[thekfc]

Woody.

You have to find out first what her religion is. It can be Islamic, Iglesia ni Cristo, Buddhist or as Honey stated SDA. All of these "religions" have restrictions.

Quote from: Jen
My family do not have allergies. That's a fact. Unfortunately for me, I have religious restrictions, I am the only one who is in a religion with plenty of religious restrictions. I don't think that she would be the only one in her family that is islamic.
But I won't mind what you are going to cook, for your month long vacation, I will eat what it is that you can cook for us. I do not wish to restrict your cooking that far. =) vegetarian?

Also Woody, you will be the husband (the head of the family) and is suppose to lead.

[Capstone]

You have to find out first what her religion is. It can be Islamic, Iglesia ni Cristo, Buddhist or as Honey stated SDA. All of these "religions" have restrictions.

Quote from: Jen
My family do not have allergies. That's a fact. Unfortunately for me, I have religious restrictions, I am the only one who is in a religion with plenty of religious restrictions. I don't think that she would be the only one in her family that is islamic.

Good point KFC - it would be pretty surprising if she was a follower of Islam given that her family is not. As others have mentioned, there are many religions which include diet restrictions.

[ignorante]

Good grief.  Just ask her!  Hey, what religion has food restrictions?

Why is this difficult?  I do not get it.  If a woman asked me why my church has no piano, organ, or other musical instruments, I would be happy to answer, not defensive or insulted. 

Ask!   

[william3rd]

30 days- Ramadan?

Doesnt make her a bad person- Islamic or not.

[Jhengsman]

Good point KFC - it would be pretty surprising if she was a follower of Islam given that her family is not. As others have mentioned, there are many religions which include diet restrictions.

Maybe she is Muslim many OFWs convert to make like easier while working in the Middle East and some stick with it. And Islam is the second largest faith in the Philippines. While the rules say women don't marry out of the group it is done, my wifels baby brother married a divorced Muslim. I am not sure how the Catholic Church sees that one. INC being the next largest group were women do look outside is likely as are SDA.

Has any anti Catholic bias been noticed?

[jm21-2]

I'd start by asking about what types of restrictions. Probably easier to do with instant messaging or over the phone than with e-mail or something like that.

As otehrs have pointed out there are plenty of reasons besides Islam for her to have diet restrictions.

[bcc_1_2]

Having grown up catholic there are times when catholics have diet restrictions as well. One thing that's nice about thailand, china, and japan is that you generally don't have to worry about jesus or muhammad.

i agree with everyone else. just ask. personally any set of beliefs that include a apocalyptic worldview are troubling IMO. My girl comes from the point of view where she didn't see any harm in organized religion. They do charity work, comfort people, etc. But when you go down the list... crusades, inquisition, child molestation, indulgences (which still continues today), strapping a bomb to your back to score 72 virgins, etc... it has its negative points as well.

she slowly figured out why i wouldn't go to church with her. The reason she stopped going was two fold. The priests would complain if any of the young children made any noise... stopping and telling the parents to take their kids to the daycare. And the church, school, and the entire grounds were very nice... quite expensive really. And the church was always fundraising (asking for tithing)... not to use to help the sick or the poor... but they wanted 10% of her income for the church. So that's what turned her off to the catholic church. It was very different than Honduras.

Well from what I hear if you are someone that isn't into religion that may be a problem with most of the women in the country you are searching. These catholic women are going to want their kids to grow up catholic (you know the drill... scare the crap out of your kids kinda deal). Between the scouts and the church you would almost be begging for your kid to get some "special" attention. Anyways, I just keep that in mind. You might get out of it, but what about your kids?

[Jhengsman]

Well from what I hear if you are someone that isn't into religion that may be a problem with most of the women in the country you are searching. These catholic women are going to want their kids to grow up catholic (you know the drill... scare the crap out of your kids kinda deal). Between the scouts and the church you would almost be begging for your kid to get some "special" attention. Anyways, I just keep that in mind. You might get out of it, but what about your kids?

Perhaps but its not really the Catholic girls who are the problem, they grow up in the majority faith so as much keep the faith pure pressure is not on them. It is the local minority sects who only exist because of their fundamental nature. There are mainstream protestants but they are so outnumbered you would have to make a special search for them. I have known SDA guys looking for women from the Philippine SDA community but never heard of anyone else besides them and Catholics looking for their specific tribe. But then most Protestants don't look for their specific tribe in any case.

[Woody]

I'd start by asking about what types of restrictions. Probably easier to do with instant messaging or over the phone than with e-mail or something like that.

Thanks, JM. That was really what I was looking for; a way to approach the situation. Asking that question is actually easy to do in our emails, they are typically about many different subjects and usually over 1000 words each. So, slipping that in will be a non-issue.

[bcc_1_2]

I'm not sure what your point is Jhengsman.

To quote Robert G. Ingersoll- "Religion can never reform mankind beause religion is slavery"

Definitely hope you don't think I'm picking on just the catholics. That is not the case. My remarks where for the OP who identifies as an agnostic and someone that doesn't attend service. While he is wise to be tolerant and respectful to the religious beliefs of the women he dates... he does have to consider if in practice she'll be tolerant of his personal beliefs as well. In practice will she start to drag him to church or expose any of their future minor children to it as well?

[Ray]

For a guy who says he grew up Catholic, bcc obviously knows nothing about the Catholic Church, so I would advise considering his personal prejudices when reading his anti-religious rants.

His brain is still stuck in the Crusades... ROFL!

 


Ray

[z_k_g]

Woody,

"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics."   R.A.H.

I grew up Catholic also, but like you I practice the Italian version.   

You still must remember that you are establishing a relationship with her family also, tread carefully, religious issues can seriously impact your relationship.

Zulu

[Ray]

So, slipping that in will be a non-issue.

Woody,

Instead of trying to “slip that in”, you would be advised to have an in-depth discussion of religion and religious issues ASAP. Get it all out in the open and don’t worry about offending her.

You started in the right direction by bringing up the religion issue early, but failed to follow up completely.

Be respectful of her beliefs but make damn sure that you have a complete understanding what those beliefs are. After you have thoroughly and completely discussed each others’ beliefs on religious issues, raising children, etc., you both should make an informed decision to either continue to pursue this relationship or part ways.

Don’t put his off any longer…

Ray

[Jhengsman]

I'm not sure what your point is Jhengsman.

To quote Robert G. Ingersoll- "Religion can never reform mankind beause religion is slavery"

Definitely hope you don't think I'm picking on just the catholics. That is not the case. My remarks where for the OP who identifies as an agnostic and someone that doesn't attend service. While he is wise to be tolerant and respectful to the religious beliefs of the women he dates... he does have to consider if in practice she'll be tolerant of his personal beliefs as well. In practice will she start to drag him to church or expose any of their future minor children to it as well?

The point is that while most Filipinos are Catholic they do not act like fundamental Catholics in a cold war with Protestantism like happens in countries where Catholics are outnumbered by or in near equal strength with Protestants. Because Protestants are not around the Filipinos, even devout ones don't grow up with an "us versus them" mentality. The next two biggest faiths Sunnis and the INC are not thought of as "Christian" by the Catholic Church thus fill the "them" role in the Philippines.

The other point was the number of Protestants is so small it is only by chance that you will run across them and I have only known Seventh Day Adventist men to actually go looking for a SDA woman in their search. But then they expect to keep the sabbath and many do follow the dietary laws although as a matter of health and not faith. Most other Protestants don't go looking for a member of their specific denomination. For example a Baptist can marry a Methodist without the rest of the Baptist community saying he is looking outside of the faith or the Methodist family saying she may "convert' out of the faith..

[bcc_1_2]

His brain is still stuck in the Crusades... ROFL!

Obviously, the name Erik Prince must not ring a bell.

Prejudice means to prejudge something. I'm not prejudging religion. I'm judging it. Boys my age were molested by priests in the same city as me.

[Woody]

Instead of trying to “slip that in”, you would be advised to have an in-depth discussion of religion and religious issues ASAP. Get it all out in the open and don’t worry about offending her.

You started in the right direction by bringing up the religion issue early, but failed to follow up completely.

Be respectful of her beliefs but make damn sure that you have a complete understanding what those beliefs are. After you have thoroughly and completely discussed each others’ beliefs on religious issues, raising children, etc., you both should make an informed decision to either continue to pursue this relationship or part ways.

Don’t put his off any longer…

Well, my "slipping it in" is opening up a big dialog on the subject. What I sent is about 400 words dealing with religion and kids. Should be an interesting discussion.

[bcc_1_2]

The point is that while most Filipinos are Catholic they do not act like fundamental Catholics in a cold war with Protestantism like happens in countries where Catholics are outnumbered by or in near equal strength with Protestants.

Yea I'm not arguing that point. Since the filipina would be living in America my point was would Woody as an agnostic want his children to go anywhere near a catholic church in the United States?

Louis CK did a pretty good skit of his experience with the church as a kid and why his parents let him quit at 10 years of age. Maybe they'll show some reruns on FX, but that sunday school teacher and priest sure did scare the crap out of him and his friends.

I can actually remember back in elementary school when we "studied" the story of Abraham being instructed to kill his son. That's just not something I'd want my 7 year old involved with. Nor stories of fathers offering their daughters up for rape, killing disobedient children or those who work on the sabbath, etc.

[Woody]

Yea I'm not arguing that point. Since the filipina would be living in America my point was would Woody as an agnostic want his children to go anywhere near a catholic church in the United States?

Wouldn't bother me. I went to a Catholic Private Elementary School. I came to my own conclusions about faith at age 14/15. Granted, now I know that I don't know as much as I THOUGHT I did then. Hence my stance change from vehement atheist to not-give-a-[snip] agnostic. The fact of the matter is, I don't know. I can't know. So why should I worry? If there is a god and heaven, he/she/it will judge based on actions, not prayer.

[Researcher]

     What's with all the shyness, just ask:What religion are you? Then discuss everything from beliefs to raising children.If it doesn't jive with what you want or believe then get Ray to cue the dump truck!


   Researcher