The Mistakes Men Make with Foreign Women

[Jamie]

I have a page on my website http://www.latin-wife.com/Foreign-Brides.asp that I believe provides a comprehensive summary of the mistakes men make with foreign women. I touch on some of what I find are the negative characteristics of Colombian women. I tried to be as concise as possible (within the limits of a web page), without sacrificing insight and aid, with a perspective few men are prepared for. Some of what I say is not new to those who know me, or who have read my postings and I suppose I will attract my critics for what and how I generalize and characterize, but I will be more then happy to debate anyone who feels I am mistaken or to provide greater detail for those interested. I decided to offer this opportunity to be challenged, after reading Alabamaboy’s ongoing thread. What I got out of his thread was the lack of knowledge some of his critics have with women and the concept of relationships and love. Alabamaboy was posting about his visa experience and many times in the past  he has opened up about the doubts and uncertainty of what he should do regarding the women he has been involved with. Ultimately he made a decision that he is responsible for and was not happy with. What the men who are critical of Alabamaboy don’t understand is that whatever reason an individual has for wanting out of a relationship is a valid reason. It’s not for anyone else to criticize, because they don’t accept the reason as valid. You determine what is important for maintaining your relationship, and others will determine what is important to them. Just because you disagree with how others may go about evaluating and living or not living with their partner doesn’t make it wrong. How can one find the personal dealings of a couple “personally” offensive when it has nothing to do with them personally?

It is obvious Alabamaboy made mistakes, but he made a mistake that many make, and that is giving the benefit of the doubt to someone they love that they will do what they say they are going to do. Yes, there are some minor logical flaws with Alabamaboy’s thinking, but few people follow a reasonable, orderly path to love. Yes, he has some beliefs that I find to be untrue, but who has beliefs that are always true. He certainly does not deserve some of the outlandish criticism he has received from a few. Statements such as: “what you did to this poor girl was wrong”, “kicked her to the curb”, “mental....abuse”, “making her 'damaged goods'”, “Did not love her”, “should have a stricter interviewing system”, “it were up to me you would never be allowed to bring in another women from Colombia” “I thank the State Department for enacting the 2 time Fiance Visa limit without a waiver” “I think the US should have a stricter interviewing system set up to weed out couples like AB and his girlfriend”  these are all examples of how some people like to interfere, control and judge the voluntary arrangements others make in their private lives.

[Alabamaboy!]

At this time in my life and in these economic times, I would much rather make a mistake and go our separate ways exactly like I did, rather than get married, probably divorced, maybe bring children into the situation, etc.

At this time after the smoke has cleared everyone is fine without any "damage" done to anyone. Other than my wallet being a little lighter. But nothing compared to a divorce or 18 years of child support.

[El Escéptico]

Hey I'm willing to leave this alone with AB but understand I'm not going to let you take swipes at me. Frankly you telling us about relationships is like a poker player who never held a winning hand explaining how to play professional poker. I say get your own house in order before you criticize us and come to his defense.

It is OK to let your mind go blank, but please turn off the sound.

[Jeff S]

I read your page in its entirety and while anyone can offer differing opinions about the minutiae, and I do have some, but overall I think you did a good job of laying out the basics that everyone contemplating this road should be well aware of before they dive in.

I probably was the one who used the term 'kick to the curb' about ABs situation, but I never put him down nor attacked him for doing it. I didn't understand his late timing though, (I'd like to think that I'd have seen the flaw long before I filled out paperwork) nor his willingness to keep the door open after she demonstrated enough of a knock-out factor to have him ship her home. I happy that it now looks like the strategy is working and wish him the best in a positive result.

I've always been of the philosophy, that dating is to have fun and games with, and sort out potential partners, that courtship (probably relationships in todays terminology) is deciding if someone is right for you, and that engagement and marriage are forever. My own personal situation has followed this. I dated a lot, had a few "relationships" the most lasting 9 months or so and most shorter, and only one engagement and marriage, beginning when I was in my 30s and now nearing 25 years together. I was perhaps fortunate because I never had to factor in my kids situation (I have none) only hers (who I couldn't love more if she were my own,) so don't have that perspective that some of you have to deal with.

In any event, your points Jamie are very valid - You have to understand and appreciate the culture, you have to have the willingness to invest the required time and money, you have to have the commitment to see it through, and at least have enough brains not to follow the little head around but rather the big one. (Excuse me for distilling your several thousand word dissertation into a single sentence.)

- Jeff

[Alabamaboy!]

Thanks Jeff. I appreciate your analysis.  Pretty much everything you wrote made sense to me except at the end. If I was thinking with the "little head" she would still be here, enjoying that part of the relationship to the fullest. And I would probably have a big mess on my hands. But I was thinking with "the big head" and that is why even though she is gorgeous and can clean house really well, I could not just marry her anyway even though things were not working out the way they needed to.

There are several wild cards in this whole process that you simply cannot predict before they get here to the States. And those include how they will adapt to the life here. And in my particular case that included if the amount of English she possessed would fly or not with the relationship with my kids.

[Jeff S]

No implication that you were thinking with the little head - just summarizing Jamie's mistakes page.

[Woody]

Some of what I say is not new to those who know me, or who have read my postings and I suppose I will attract my critics for what and how I generalize and characterize, but I will be more then happy to debate anyone who feels I am mistaken or to provide greater detail for those interested.

You certainly will have to defend yourself with how blunt you were.

I read the page in it's entirety and generally agree with your conclusions. There were a few minor points that I think you went a bit far, but on the whole I am in agreement.

BTW, the talking points page is a nice touch. Literal days of conversation to cover all those points, if one were so inclined. Also, I like how you get REALLY personal with the questions, on both sides.

[Alabamaboy!]

Jamie that link you provided takes you to a place that everyone who is considering dating a Colombiana should go. There is very valuable information there which is like gold for a newbie.

I am the type of person who learns things the hard way sometimes because I am a little bit stubborn. But even with taking the time to actually go through two relatively long term relationships, making many trips, and talking to many, many women from Colombia...I could not write a guide that is more true and thorough than what you wrote there.

Something as crazy sounding as: don't waste your time writing to the girls before you go to Colombia. That sounds crazy when you read it. But you are absolutely right. It is almost a complete waste of time. For all the reasons you mentioned. 100% true in all my dealings.

Or the statement about not trusting anyone until they prove themselves to you first. 100% on the money again. I always tell everyone that I trust them 100% until they prove me wrong. I give them that "credit" up front, because I think that that simply because you are human that you deserve that benefit of the doubt. Well, unfortunately, it is not a wise way to approach things in Colombia. Even for small aspects of the relationship such as their ability to cook, take care of tasks, that they are actually doing what they say they are. You just simply cannot believe what you hear down there. Because many times it is not the truth. The promises are not fulfilled.  And again that is after learning things the hard way.  You need to see every detail with your eyes before trusting them with that particular task. You cannot take anything for granted or assume anything. The rules are different down there.

[william3rd]

Mr. Agency Owner, you have no business criticizing anyone here for their opinions on the AB debacle. Your opinion holds exactly the same weight as everybody else's on the issue.

[Alabamaboy!]

Jamie the part about "not understanding Colombian women" should be part of the "bible" of international dating with a Colombiana. I was laughing while reading it because almost every single item was 100% correct. In detail.

And another thing I can add to that "guide" is that it seemed to make absolutely no difference if the girl was rich, poor, or even the age. It makes no difference if you meet them in an agency, online, or in person at a mall during one of your trips there. They seem to almost all be the same in the way they operate. So don't think just because your girl has a Master's Degree and a good job that they will be any different than the rest. Sometimes those were the worst ones. Instead of hinting around about a 10K COP phone card, they will hint around about an Iphone or a computer or even a car!!!

I will say though that I have been around the block a few times and have traveled to Mexico, Philippines, and throughout the States and there are by far way more attractive, single, willing dating partners in Colombia than anywhere else I have seen. Like 10 X more than anywhere else. Especially for what I like physically and some of the personal traits. So even with all the negative things being brought out, it is still very possible and probable that you can find a good wife if you just re-read the guide that Jamie has posted the link for, follow the information, go against some of your natural tendencies, watch out for any bad signs, and take your time. The biggest mistake I think you can make is to overlook any of the red flags because you do not want to start over again with your search because you can't get time off from work or get away from family or whatever. You have to make a commitment with your time, energy, and money (for travel purposes).

[Alabamaboy!]

William 3, to say that Jamie's word does not carry more weight than a normal poster here is absolutely illogical. He has a tremendous amount of experience (good and bad) than almost anyone here. And has seen many successes and failures. I for one would greatly appreciate more info from guys like him to be posted here, than from other guys who have never gotten off their couch to travel anywhere and are just spouting off the top of their head with ideas and theoretical guesses about how things should and should not operate in Colombia.

You are an expert in Visa issues supposedly. Do you think your word and advice is not any more valuable and accurate than some goofball who is just coming to the site for the first time and doesn't know anything about anything???

When you make comments like you just did, it casts serious doubt on anything you ever say on this forum. Because it shows you are not very logical.

[william3rd]

Your last series of posts ended up in the flame room. Wanna try for two in a row? 

As far as the opinions of the agency owner in regard to your particular situation and his dissing the commentary concerning YOU, his opinion has the exact same weight as other posters-or even less if he has a personal/professional stake in the situation. I dont have any problem with Jamie or his agency especially since the alternative to Jamie's quality efforts is the scumbag sextour/porn distributor/occasionally luck into a marriage agency known as AFA. I am sure Jamie's efforts produce more marriages than the 10%ish results of the competition.

As to visas, I get to spend much more time cleaning up the wreckage of you heroes nowadays. Got a green card annulment going to trial at the end of the month. Some of you characters are just amazing!!!!

[Dan]

Re: Jamie, William3rd and Alabamaboy.

Mr. Agency Owner, you have no business criticizing anyone here for their opinions on the AB debacle. Your opinion holds exactly the same weight as everybody else's on the issue.

Jamie has the same right as anyone else. Everyone has their own opinions and perspectives, and they also have the prerogative to disagree with others.

William 3, to say that Jamie's word does not carry more weight than a normal poster here is absolutely illogical. He has a tremendous amount of experience (good and bad) than almost anyone here. And has seen many successes and failures. I for one would greatly appreciate more info from guys like him to be posted here, than from other guys who have never gotten off their couch to travel anywhere and are just spouting off the top of their head with ideas and theoretical guesses about how things should and should not operate in Colombia.

You are an expert in Visa issues supposedly. Do you think your word and advice is not any more valuable and accurate than some goofball who is just coming to the site for the first time and doesn't know anything about anything???

When you make comments like you just did, it casts serious doubt on anything you ever say on this forum. Because it shows you are not very logical.

>>William 3, to say that Jamie's word does not carry more weight than a normal poster here is absolutely illogical.<<

No, it is entirely logical. Unlike William's vocation in law, there are no credentials for people who run an agency. There are no business schools that teach how to run an international marriage agency. I've written about it before - and to repeat, when interviewed by the GAO a couple of years back, I made these very points - going so far as to tell them that most agency owners are a bit like a beachbum who is walking along the beach and finds a pretty sea shell and so he brushes the dirt off it to make it look a little nicer, when lo and behold, some foreigner walking by asks if he can buy the sea shell from him - so he sells it. Same guy runs down the beach a bit and sees another attractive sea shell and picks it up and cleans it off and this time makes it a tiny bit more obvious to passers-by that he has a sea shell that he might be willing to sell - and he does. A few months pass by and the next time we see our young beach-going entrepreneur, he has a small tent set on a major road leading to the beach and he has a few dozen brightly polished sea shells he is selling to tourists who are on their way to or from the beach. A year passes and now the established entrepreneur has opened a website and is selling beautiful sea shells to people from around the globe - and making more money than he ever knew existed.

Welcome to the world of the international marriage agency owner. That is exactly how the vast majority find themselves in this business, and it is a far cry from the professional of law or medicine or even just a more traditional business.

In the end, everyone at PL has the same amount of credibility - unless, of course, you individually ascribe more (or less) credibility to that person - but that is an individual choice.

- Dan

[Jamie]

Hey I'm willing to leave this alone with AB but understand I'm not going to let you take swipes at me. Frankly you telling us about relationships is like a poker player who never held a winning hand explaining how to play professional poker. I say get your own house in order before you criticize us and come to his defense.

It is OK to let your mind go blank, but please turn off the sound.

I don’t know who you are and I am sure you are going to hide from telling us. But if you were one of the guys who I quoted my criticism stands as does my defense of AB. If you feel I am not suitable for giving advice on relationships you have plenty of my material to dispute. Please tell us what I wrote that you feel is wrong or bad advise.

[Jamie]

Mr. Agency Owner, you have no business criticizing anyone here for their opinions on the AB debacle. Your opinion holds exactly the same weight as everybody else's on the issue.

What Mr. I Never Answer A Direct Question said was others can criticize AB’s “debacle”, but I can not criticize the critics, because my opinion carries the same weight as others. Well if my opinion carries the same weight as others then why am I not allowed to state it? Your second sentence contradicts your first sentence, a typical example of William’s legal mind at work. As for his story being a “debacle” that is for him to determine not you, which is what my point was.

[Jamie]

There were a few minor points that I think you went a bit far, but on the whole I am in agreement.

Woody, please feel free to criticize or question any points that you have doubts about.

[Alabamaboy!]

William, what exactly is/was the debacle?

Dan, with all do respect, Jamie is not running a fly by night operation. He has undoubtedly had a huge number of successes. That cannot be debated. I personally know of 4 guys who met great girls from there with 3 already married and one who will be shortly. Also, I highly doubt anyone has had the number of serious clients as he has or has witnessed the number of successes, failures, etc. as he has.

I for one would be more inclined to listen to a very successful, experienced, truthful agency owner than another guy who posts here who has never traveled or met anyone who has gone through the process.

Anyone that says the opposite would be a better idea is not being very logical.

Jamie has enough business that he does not need to lie or exaggerate claims in one way or the other. As far as I can see, neither does Mudd. So I believe their stories a little more than most that post here.

But to each his own.

Would you prefer to have your heart bypass surgery  performed by a guy with a lot of experience, that has great results which are documented, or by a guy who has never been to Med school and has no "record" from which to be judged?

[Researcher]

    Excellent job Jamie! Well thought out and put together info that would benefit newbies or experienced veterans of international dating.These are things I had to figure out on my own during my search.Even before I started at a fairly young age I wanted to take my time and not rush into anything.I set myself up finacially to be able to travel and date foreign women and did so for ten years.I'd have to say I agree with just about every point you made.I think alot of guys fall for the first woman that shows them attention when they get off the plane and then they hope it works out.Big mistake.

   While I may not have done the same as AB regarding his lady I wouldn't throw stones at him for his decisions.I agree that everyone has to decide what is important to them in a relationship and how they want to deal with certain situations.While it can be learned that you should never take someone at their word in regards to what they say they will do versus what they actually do, I would never take the option of sending a woman back home off the table.I cancelled a visa (K1) and never looked back.It was a good decision for me and it looks like AB's situation is working out for the best also.


    Researcher

[Jamie]

    Excellent job Jamie! Well thought out and put together info that would benefit newbies or experienced veterans of international dating.These are things I had to figure out on my own during my search.Even before I started at a fairly young age I wanted to take my time and not rush into anything.I set myself up finacially to be able to travel and date foreign women and did so for ten years.I'd have to say I agree with just about every point you made.I think alot of guys fall for the first woman that shows them attention when they get off the plane and then they hope it works out.Big mistake.

   While I may not have done the same as AB regarding his lady I wouldn't throw stones at him for his decisions.I agree that everyone has to decide what is important to them in a relationship and how they want to deal with certain situations.While it can be learned that you should never take someone at their word in regards to what they say they will do versus what they actually do, I would never take the option of sending a woman back home off the table.I cancelled a visa (K1) and never looked back.It was a good decision for me and it looks like AB's situation is working out for the best also.


    Researcher

Thanks. And that is how I feel, some guys are throwing stones at him instead of providing helpful criticism. It’s like the guy is down and people want to step on him. He did not invest all his time so he could bring a woman to the States and have her return to Colombia. He made some mistakes, which he acknowledged. One thing I have learned over the years is to be less critical of the mistakes people make in their relationships. What is right for one person may not be right for another person and when someone is in love they sometimes can’t make the right decision. What man out there is mistake free when it comes to women? Just because we don’t believe we would have made the same mistake as someone else doesn’t mean we can’t be a little more understanding. Relationships are personal matter where outsiders will not know the whole truth and any criticism should take that in to account.

[william3rd]

Also, I highly doubt anyone has had the number of serious clients as he has or has witnessed the number of successes, failures, etc. as he has.

I for one would be more inclined to listen to a very successful, experienced, truthful agency owner than another guy who posts here who has never traveled or met anyone who has gone through the process.

Would you prefer to have your heart bypass surgery  performed by a guy with a lot of experience, that has great results which are documented, or by a guy who has never been to Med school and has no "record" from which to be judged?

Yep- truthful agency owners are hard to find in this day and age. Just look at some of the advertising out there.

However, bad analogy on the heart bypass. You go to where your insurance company sends you and that doesnt necessarily get you the best.

[Alabamaboy!]

Jamie has the "rest of the story" with the GQ guy ever been published? If so do you have a link? Or can you provide the details here?

[mudd]

i know many agency owners  ( some post on here) from all parts of Colombia, Bogota, Barranquilla, Medellin,Manizales ,  Cali etc who married Colombians and are divorced, who do not follow what they preach.  but most don't want clients to know this heheheh

[Alabamaboy!]

Yep- truthful agency owners are hard to find in this day and age. Just look at some of the advertising out there.

However, bad analogy on the heart bypass. You go to where your insurance company sends you and that doesnt necessarily get you the best.

I work in the health care industry and have worked in cardiac hospitals. I don't recall anyone who is forced to see any one particular MD. Some MD's do not accept certain insurances, or the patient's plan may require you to go to particular groups if you do not want to pay a higher percentage of the cost.  

And especially with a heart bypass, I don't think too many people are going to "go where the insurance sends them".

Whoever you do end up going to though, if you have any say in it whatsoever, will be the guy with the most experience and with documented good results. You are not going to go to an inferior surgeon when comparing between multiple choices.

Same thing goes if you are going to take advice from someone here or use an agency. I am going to put more weight in the words of the experienced, better results guy.  

[Alabamaboy!]

It does not make much difference to me if the guy takes his own advice or not, it means much more if the said advice is correct.

When I go to the guy who is going to do my cardiac bypass surgery (from the other example), I do not care if he follows his own advice regarding exercise, diet, or medication. I just want the correct information for my own situation.

There is at least as much to be learned of the failures of guys here on the forum, whether they are agency owners or not, than from the success stories.

[raycjs]

This is a very interesting topic and should be read by all... I made a very big mistake a few years back, i have learned a lot since then and now i am taking it very slow with a great Colombian by my side.. I could not have done it without the help from this board and the many good people i have met...

once again this is a must read....


Ray