Riots in the streets 2008-2013 style.

[fathertime]

It seems pretty clear to me that in order for our nation to recover we need to do two things.


1.  STOP CONSUMING so much...despite what are idiot leaders tell us, consumption is NOT good...they just want us to consume so they can clean up on taxes.


2.  START EXPORTING our goods.  We need to produce something for the rest of the world.  We export quality goods at a profit and we wind up importing money....at that point we will deserve to enjoy the fruits of that labor.  At this point we don't deserve to live high on the hog.


Fathertime!

[Colgando]

It seems pretty clear to me that in order for our nation to recover we need to do two things.


1.  STOP CONSUMING so much...despite what are idiot leaders tell us, consumption is NOT good...they just want us to consume so they can clean up on taxes.


2.  START EXPORTING our goods.  We need to produce something for the rest of the world.  We export quality goods at a profit and we wind up importing money....at that point we will deserve to enjoy the fruits of that labor.  At this point we don't deserve to live high on the hog.


Fathertime!

FT, you outta go out on the stump with this, that makes sense to me.

[euforia51]

It seems pretty clear to me that in order for our nation to recover we need to do two things.


1.  STOP OVER-CONSUMING so much...despite what are idiot leaders tell us, over-consumption is NOT good...they just want us to consume so they can clean up on taxes.


2.  START EXPORTING our goods.  We need to produce something for the rest of the world.  We export quality goods at a profit and we wind up importing money....at that point we will deserve to enjoy the fruits of that labor.  At this point we don't deserve to live high on the hog.


Fathertime!

Consumption is fine and good and necessary ... for those who can honestly afford it. For the rest who are consuming on credit cards, loans, and other forms of debt ... you're best to do without.
 
Exporting our goods? To who? I am having a difficult time thinking of consumer goods and products that are still made here for us to export to anyone. Aircraft made by Boeing, for example, comes to mind so long as you also realize many of the parts and assemblies are made overseas and shipped to the US for final assembly. And oh ... how about this crock of sheet...
 
http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/news/2011/02/22/boeing-airbus-us-air-force-tanker-bid.html
 
In a nutshell, this piece of news basically states the bidding war between Boeing and rival Scarebus (Airbus) for the contract of 179 new tanker aircraft for the air force ... the US Air Force. Millions of dollars are now being spent by the two companies for advertising and the greasing of the palms to lobbyists. Boeing has spent 5 million to Airbus' 1.7 million ... to lobby (which should be illegal) your politicians to leverage a vote. B-freakin' S! This is a 35 billion dollar decision that should not even be in question. If the US goverment cannot buy and fly aircraft built by a US company, something is seriously wrong; which we already know that to be true regardless.
 
Now to be fair, a decision has been made and Boeing ended up winning the deal.
 
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123244029
 
But again, who do we export to with any amount of prosperous consistency when our own government in flux over whether or not to buy our own products? If this doesn't really piss you off ... it should.

[michaelb]

GM wouldn't be allowed to open their Saginaw and Flint factories and move their Mexican manufactured trucks and SUVs there, even if they were staffed with $8/ hr non-union employees, because it would shift their CAFE (fleet average fuel economy) standard over the limit.

I could be wrong, but isn't CAFE based on the vehicle being sold in the US, not where it is manufactured? Not saying GM doesn't build trucks in Mexico, because they do, but I understand that they do build light trucks in Flint, and that the bulk of their SUV's are made in Arlington, Texas (you know, where the so called "Dallas" Cowboys football team plays)

To answer your question about if the consumers will pay $2000 extra for an Aveo vs. a Honda or Nissan etc.......I don't think so, I hardly ever see an Aveo on the road around here.

[michaelb]

All Free Trade agreements would have to be repealed for this to happen.

Well, maybe, I'd have to study them. But keep in mind I never said other countries shouldn't be allowed to sell us stuff, I said they shouldn't shouldn't be allowed to sell us stuff using our brand names and designs....the fact that they do is really the fault of the trademark and patent holder purposely moving their production out of the USA, not the people who work in or manage the factories overseas.  Personally, I've never been a union member nor a  big "Buy USA!"  type of person, just don't like the companies wanting to have their cake (the established brand name and government protection) and eat it too (pay low wages to their overseas workers, still charge premium prices to their US customers) 

[fathertime]

Consumption is fine and good and necessary ... for those who can honestly afford it. For the rest who are consuming on credit cards, loans, and other forms of debt ... you're best to do without.
 
Exporting our goods? To who? I am having a difficult time thinking of consumer goods and products that are still made here for us to export to anyone. Aircraft made by Boeing, for example, comes to mind so long as you also realize many of the parts and assemblies are made overseas and shipped to the US for final assembly. And oh ... how about this crock of sheet...
 
http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/news/2011/02/22/boeing-airbus-us-air-force-tanker-bid.html
 
In a nutshell, this piece of news basically states the bidding war between Boeing and rival Scarebus (Airbus) for the contract of 179 new tanker aircraft for the air force ... the US Air Force. Millions of dollars are now being spent by the two companies for advertising and the greasing of the palms to lobbyists. Boeing has spent 5 million to Airbus' 1.7 million ... to lobby (which should be illegal) your politicians to leverage a vote. B-freakin' S! This is a 35 billion dollar decision that should not even be in question. If the US goverment cannot buy and fly aircraft built by a US company, something is seriously wrong; which we already know that to be true regardless.
 
Now to be fair, a decision has been made and Boeing ended up winning the deal.
 
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123244029
 
But again, who do we export to with any amount of prosperous consistency when our own government in flux over whether or not to buy our own products? If this doesn't really piss you off ... it should.

Well if we have nothing to export then we are doomed to be a second or 3rd tier economy.  We will not acquire wealth by selling underpants to each other.




I disagree, consumption is necessary but it is not good.  Less is better.  I'm open to hear how consumption is good if you can give me a reasonable explanation. 




Fathertime!

[Jeff S]

No. CAFE applies to cars built in the US not sold in the US. The 1.3 million square foot factory in Silao Guanajuato employs about 3000 and builds the Yukon XLs, Suburbans, Avalanches, and Escalades - all the low mileage vehicles - also some of the most popular vehicles in the late 90s and early 00s. It was expressly moved outside the US to increase the fleet average mileage of GM vehicles by not having them count. I was there numerous times as was told by executives at GM that that was the only reason to move it.


People may not be willing to an extra $2000 per car for a economy GM car over a Japanese car, but it costs GM close to that more to build one than the Japanese automakers. There are $1200 per car in legacy retirement costs to the UAW that the Jaapnese automakers don't have (they have 401Ks,) plus they are about $500-$700 per car less productive than the Japanese automakers assembling cars in the US. So basically when they sell the Aveo at the same price as the Civic, they lose money. They have to though, to keep the fleet mileage average down so they can sell all the bigger cars and trucks. However they make up the losses by selling more Suburbans and Escalades that are very profitable, whether they're made in Arlington or Silao. If the ratio of Aveos and their ilk to Escalades and theirs changes much, they're sunk.

[Jeff S]

For those of you who think the US doesn't manufacture anything anymore.....

The world's top manufacturing country is the United States, as has been the case since before WWII. In 2007, the United States' manufacturing output was $1.831 trillion US Dollars (USD). This is about 12% of the USA's entire GDP (Gross Domestic Product), or $12,206 USD for every person in the 150 million-strong labor force. Still, the USA's output per capita is not the world's greatest among manufacturing countries -- that honor goes to Japan. Important goods manufactured in the United States include, in order of percentage of exports in 2007: production machinery and equipment, 31.4%; industrial supplies, 27.5%; non-auto consumer goods, 12.7%; motor vehicles and parts, 10.5%; aircraft and parts, 7.6%; food, feed and beverages, and 7.3%; and other, 3.0%.

The top twelve in 2007 were:

• United States $1,831 billion (USD)
• China ($1,106 billion USD),
• Japan ($926 billion USD),
• Germany ($670 billion USD),
• Russian Federation ($362 billion USD),
• Italy ($345 billion USD),
• United Kingdom ($342 billion USD),
• France ($296 billion USD)
• South Korea ($241 billion USD),
• Canada ($218 billion USD)
• Spain ($208 billion USD)
• Brazil ($206 billion USD)

Source:  http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-top-manufacturing-countries.htm

[euforia51]

Well if we have nothing to export then we are doomed to be a second or 3rd tier economy.  We will not acquire wealth by selling underpants to each other.




I disagree, consumption is necessary but it is not good.  Less is better.  I'm open to hear how consumption is good if you can give me a reasonable explanation.




Fathertime!

Certainly, and not that I would buy just anyone's underpants either.    I'm not disagreeing with the US selling our goods and services to other countries. I just have my blinders on because I can hardly think of any products off the top of my head that we make here; even though there are many ... thanks for the link.
 
But finish my sentence ... consumption is fine and good and necessary ... for those who can afford it. I mean go out and spend ... if you can afford it. Go out to eat ... tip good for good service ... you are helping your wait staff pay their bills.  As for me, I want to sit home and watch my geeky-arse planet and nature shows. I need a TV. So, I the consumer, go out and buy a TV. I have done my share to stimulate the economy and I have fulfilled a desire that I can afford. Or better yet ... I see you are selling a TV because you need the money. So I buy your TV. And now, even better, both of us are fulfilled.
 
 

[fathertime]

For those of you who think the US doesn't manufacture anything anymore.....
The top twelve in 2007 were:

• United States $1,831 billion (USD)
• China ($1,106 billion USD),
• Japan ($926 billion USD),
• Germany ($670 billion USD),
• Russian Federation ($362 billion USD),
• Italy ($345 billion USD),
• United Kingdom ($342 billion USD),
• France ($296 billion USD)
• South Korea ($241 billion USD),
• Canada ($218 billion USD)
• Spain ($208 billion USD)
• Brazil ($206 billion USD)

Source:  http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-top-manufacturing-countries.htm

Thanks for the stat Jeff!  We make a lot of stuff, but our trade deficit is 100's of billions each year.  It would appear we are making most of this stuff for ourselves.


In addition to that, I wonder if the stat is watered down because of our very large labor costs compared to China.  China very likely makes more stuff, but it wouldn't show up in a stat like this if the stat is strictly based on $$.  The stat may well be skewed in favor of countries that pay higher wages.  What do you think?


Fathertime!

[fathertime]

Certainly, and not that I would buy just anyone's underpants either.    I'm not disagreeing with the US selling our goods and services to other countries. I just have my blinders on because I can hardly think of any products off the top of my head that we make here; even though there are many ... thanks for the link.
 
But finish my sentence ... consumption is fine and good and necessary ... for those who can afford it. I mean go out and spend ... if you can afford it. Go out to eat ... tip good for good service ... you are helping your wait staff pay their bills.  As for me, I want to sit home and watch my geeky-arse planet and nature shows. I need a TV. So, I the consumer, go out and buy a TV. I have done my share to stimulate the economy and I have fulfilled a desire that I can afford. Or better yet ... I see you are selling a TV because you need the money. So I buy your TV. And now, even better, both of us are fulfilled.

 Don't worry I'm not going to sell you my underpants, I'm going to wait for a better offer! ja!

It doesn't sound to me like you are doing enough to stimulate our economy Euphoria!  Get out there and go SHOPPING! jajaa 
You know part of me thinks that the if we were to legalize marijuana people would all sit around in the evenings and watch TV, giggle, eat macaroni and cheetos.  Our economy would tank further, that is probably the real reason why our govt doesn't want to see drugs like pot legalized.


Fathertime!

[euforia51]

It doesn't sound to me like you are doing enough to stimulate our economy Euphoria!  Get out there and go SHOPPING! jajaa 

Can't do it FT ... I spent too many long years paying my fair share of stupid tax being a credit card jockey. The gig has long been up for this reformed smoker and spender. It's really true ... the ex-doers are the worst. I love being out of debt and able to breathe way too much to ever go back. I'm sorry to say, I'm going to have to watch the weight of the economy try to make its way back up on someone else's back.
 
Hey man ... pass those cheetos! 

[Jeff S]

Yes - we consume a considerable amount of what we produce. China a lot less so. Throw in that half our oil (not a manufactured product) is imported, and you get a trade deficit.


There is some good news though. In the first 6 months of 2010 we went from exporting a few thousand tons per year of coal to China to almost three million tons with no end in sight. New ports in Washington and Western Canada are being built and expanded to meet the anticipated windfall. Vietnam and Australia are getting rich supplying China with coal and we are hoping to cash in. Of course Algore is already giving speeches on how evil the US is bringing on global warming because we're feeding China's energy needs, but the public pretty much fed up with that money making scam.

[Alabamaboy!]

It seems pretty clear to me that in order for our nation to recover we need to do two things.


1.  STOP CONSUMING so much...despite what are idiot leaders tell us, consumption is NOT good...they just want us to consume so they can clean up on taxes.


2.  START EXPORTING our goods.  We need to produce something for the rest of the world.  We export quality goods at a profit and we wind up importing money....at that point we will deserve to enjoy the fruits of that labor.  At this point we don't deserve to live high on the hog.


Fathertime!

I think a great way to get over consumption under control is to institute a VAT. It will generate a huge amount of tax revenue and may make people think twice about buying high ticket goods that they do not need.

The money would need to be SPECIFICALLY EARMARKED TO ONLY PAY DOWN THE NATIONAL DEBT, AND ANYONE WHO TRIES TO TOUCH A DOLLAR OF IT FOR ANYTHING ELSE SHOULD BE HUNG AND TORCHED IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE.

[piglett]

I think a great way to get over consumption under control is to institute a VAT. It will generate a huge amount of tax revenue and may make people think twice about buying high ticket goods that they do not need.

The money would need to be SPECIFICALLY EARMARKED TO ONLY PAY DOWN THE NATIONAL DEBT, AND ANYONE WHO TRIES TO TOUCH A DOLLAR OF IT FOR ANYTHING ELSE SHOULD BE HUNG AND TORCHED IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE.

sorry but it would never work
they would piss it all way just like they did with all the billions the baby boomers paid into social security
 
what we need is to remove all the whores in washington DC & replace them with some people that really want to fix something not just keep feeding at the troth
 
1/3 of the federal budget could be cut if you too the meat ax to "most" of the waste fraud & corruption not to mention all the agencies that over lap
you know the FBI,BATFE,homeland security just to name a few
 
pig

[Jeff S]

Hear what the director of Undergraduate Studies in Economics at Harvard has to say about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGPa5Ob-5Ps&feature=channel_video_title

[Jeff S]

Got this email today:

No one has been able to explain to me why young men and women serve in the U.S. Military for 20 years, risking their lives protecting freedom, and only get 50% of their pay. While Politicians hold their political positions in the safe confines of the capital, protected by these same men and women, and receive full pay retirement after serving one term. It just does not make any sense.

Monday we learned that the staffers of Congress family members are exempt from having to pay back student loans. This will get national attention if news networks will broadcast it. When you add this to the below, just where will all of it stop?
 
This will take less than thirty seconds to read. If you agree, please pass it on.
 
This is an idea that we should address.
 
For too long we have been too complacent about the workings of Congress. Many citizens had no idea that members of Congress could retire with the same pay after only one term, that they specifically exempted themselves from many of the laws they have passed (such as being exempt from any fear of prosecution for sexual harassment) while ordinary citizens must live under those laws. The latest is to exempt themselves from the Healthcare Reform... in all of its forms. Somehow, that doesn't seem logical. We do not have an elite that is above the law. I truly don't care if they are Democrat, Republican, Independent or whatever. The self-serving must stop.
 
If each person that receives this will forward it on to 20 people, in three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message.. This is one proposal that really should be passed around.
 
Proposed 28th Amendment to the United States Constitution:

"Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators and/or Representatives; and, Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators and/or Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States ."

[fathertime]

I think a great way to get over consumption under control is to institute a VAT. It will generate a huge amount of tax revenue and may make people think twice about buying high ticket goods that they do not need.

The money would need to be SPECIFICALLY EARMARKED TO ONLY PAY DOWN THE NATIONAL DEBT, AND ANYONE WHO TRIES TO TOUCH A DOLLAR OF IT FOR ANYTHING ELSE SHOULD BE HUNG AND TORCHED IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE.

I like the concept of a VAT instead of taxes on income.  I can see problems with enforcement though.   In our society everything seems to provide incentive for consumption, this would be a disincentive for consumption and cause a lot of chaos!


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

Despite the nation being in the financial toilet, I feel flithy rich! 
I have fairly clean air, fresh mountain water, bright sunshine, and barrels of avocados and other food here, not to mention a lovely young wife and healthy brood of kids! I don't think it takes much more to be rich!  Our nation has lost sight of the important things somehow!


Fathertime! 

[Researcher]

For those of you who think the US doesn't manufacture anything anymore.....
The top twelve in 2007 were:

• United States $1,831 billion (USD)
• China ($1,106 billion USD),
• Japan ($926 billion USD),
• Germany ($670 billion USD),
• Russian Federation ($362 billion USD),
• Italy ($345 billion USD),
• United Kingdom ($342 billion USD),
• France ($296 billion USD)
• South Korea ($241 billion USD),
• Canada ($218 billion USD)
• Spain ($208 billion USD)
• Brazil ($206 billion USD)

Source:  http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-top-manufacturing-countries.htm

     I don't know if I trust these numbers that much since they include things like output from power plants, which in the US has increased alot with fewer people to produce it.I just remember all the steel mills and textile plants being shut down and moved out of the US.Not to mention companies like Johnson Controls leaving the US.



      Researcher

[Ray]

No one has been able to explain to me why young men and women serve in the U.S. Military for 20 years, risking their lives protecting freedom, and only get 50% of their pay. While Politicians hold their political positions in the safe confines of the capital, protected by these same men and women, and receive full pay retirement after serving one term. It just does not make any sense.

Jeff,
　
A correction…
　
Retired military do not get any where near 50% of their pay after 20 years.
　
That’s actually 50% of BASE PAY, not total pay.
　
Active duty military members get some significant "allowances" included in their total pay, such as housing allowance, rations allowance, clothing allowance, hazardous duty pay, combat zone pay, proficiency pay, etc, etc., etc…
　
BUT, when you retire, your retirement pay is calculated only on your BASE PAY, which isn’t giddily squat. In effect, you’re damn lucky to get close to 30% of what you were actually making on active duty.
　
Then, take away your ex-wife’s share of your retirement pay as prescribed by the Democrat Commies in states like California, and income taxes, and you’re lucky to get enough to buy a pitcher of beer and a hot dog once a week… LOL!
　
Those dumb-ass politicians get WAY too much "retirement" pay for the few years that they were in there screwing us tax-payers over!
　
Ray
　
　

[Dave H]

Hey Ray,

Same here...my FD retirement is a percentage of my BASE PAY...which is why I live in the Philippines and  can drink as many pitchers of San Miguel beer and eat as many red hot dogs as I want too. P.S. Jollibee has a descent hot dog ("Jolly Hotdog" -"Mildly seasoned all-meat hotdog") that isn't red.      Not to worry, the hotdogs in the Jolly Spaghetti are still red. 
 
Dave
 

[Ray]

 
Jolly Hot Dogs?  OMG!
 
What's next? Jolly Tacos?
 
 
 
 
 

[Researcher]

Hear what the director of Undergraduate Studies in Economics at Harvard has to say about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGPa5Ob-5Ps&feature=channel_video_title

      I really don't get the point of this video.I'm glad this Harvard egg head has figured out the very basics of capitalism but he fails to give any real details on why he thinks gov't regulation caused the recent mortgage crisis.I'll take Alan Greenspan's explanantion of what happened, since he has the experience, and uttered the words "I was wrong". He was referring to the belief he had about markets would regulating themselves so there was no need to regulate mortgage backed securities.

     While there are some really ridiculous regulations out there that is no reason to not have any.The basic idea of capitalism is to harness greed and self interest to benefit the most people.Having no regulation doesn't always accomplish this.


        Researcher

[Bob_S]

P.S. Jollibee has a descent hot dog ("Jolly Hotdog" -"Mildly seasoned all-meat hotdog") that isn't red.      

Made with 100% real organic dog!