Riots in the streets 2008-2013 style.

[fathertime]

 

It is not about being positive, it is about pricing in information to money management methodologies. If I adopted your view, I would have lost my clients a lot of money. If I were to adopt your view right now, I would loose them even more money.

That is not true, it would have depended on when you put them in the markets when you took them out.  If you had yanked their money off the table before the predicable crash pf 2008 they could have substantially more  shares then they have now, so in effect those positive thinkers did loose their clients money.   There were quite a few people the pulled out of real estate in 2005 (myself included) and bought again in 2010/11...I think those that re-entered in 2010/11 re-entered too quickly but the point is this whole crash was predictable. I'm pretty sure quite a few people dropped out of the stocks at around dow 12k and re-invested at dow 7k or dow 8k....they have ridden this false recovery upwards for a while now. 


Well that is all besides the point...What did you think of the GDP numbers that are so relied upon by our govt? Do you see how they have been manipulated over the past 45 years and now don't measure what they proclaim to measure?


Fathertime!

[Researcher]

       It's good that people in Colgando's line of work are positive.Panic can cause a bigger mess than anything right now. I don't think we have had a recovery and if we didn't have the safety nets like FDIC, unemployment benefits, etc.... we would have had a bigger crash than the Great Depression.I don't think it is a coincidence that the economy starts to slip when QE2 ended.There is just too much propping up going on that is digging us deeper in a hole. The printing of the dollar could cause a currency crisis, worldwide. The US and Europe have enough gold to go back to using the gold standard. Brazil and other emerging markets don't so they would be in trouble.US treasuries and the dollar are still being bought. That says to me that the whole world is sinking along with us.

      Researcher

[Alabamaboy!]

       It's good that people in Colgando's line of work are positive.Panic can cause a bigger mess than anything right now. I don't think we have had a recovery and if we didn't have the safety nets like FDIC, unemployment benefits, etc.... we would have had a bigger crash than the Great Depression.I don't think it is a coincidence that the economy starts to slip when QE2 ended.There is just too much propping up going on that is digging us deeper in a hole. The printing of the dollar could cause a currency crisis, worldwide. The US and Europe have enough gold to go back to using the gold standard. Brazil and other emerging markets don't so they would be in trouble.US treasuries and the dollar are still being bought. That says to me that the whole world is sinking along with us.

      Researcher

That is exactly my analysis. QE2 was the only reason we made it this far, but did nothing to fix any underlying problem. On the contrary, we racked up even more debt and squandered a lot of power (money) to fix these problems. And now, the price must be paid, all over the world.

[Colgando]

That is not true, it would have depended on when you put them in the markets when you took them out.  If you had yanked their money off the table before the predicable crash pf 2008 they could have substantially more  shares then they have now, so in effect those positive thinkers did loose their clients money.   There were quite a few people the pulled out of real estate in 2005 (myself included) and bought again in 2010/11...I think those that re-entered in 2010/11 re-entered too quickly but the point is this whole crash was predictable. I'm pretty sure quite a few people dropped out of the stocks at around dow 12k and re-invested at dow 7k or dow 8k....they have ridden this false recovery upwards for a while now. 


Well that is all besides the point...What did you think of the GDP numbers that are so relied upon by our govt? Do you see how they have been manipulated over the past 45 years and now don't measure what they proclaim to measure?


Fathertime!

FT, my man, I will have to look you and AB up when I am in So Cal one day!!


Cool man, allow me to clarify, when people listen to their emotions, they do exactly the wrong thing, they end up buying high and selling low, to keep it simple. For example, many of my clients called me to liquidate in 2008/2009, some went through with it, so many of these folks ended up selling low as the fear took hold, I remember the week where the DOW was dropping 700 points a day, this was around the time of TARP. Then they turned around and wanted to but back in when they felt more comfortable as the markets went back up, net, net, they would have been better off listening to our advice to hold fast to their long-term objectives with tactical adjustments to ride the wave. When I say I would have lost money, if we thought we were entering a dark age, we would need to advise them to put their money into asset classes that store value, like Gold, which is running up, hit 1900 recently, a new record, break away from the fundamentals of successful long-term investing. Of course, diversification failed in the 2008 recession, every asset class went down.


My point with the GDP number is that irrespective of how it is calculated, that is the excepted top line measure of whether an economy is growing or not, people that run money take this number for what it is worth, a number that has been consistently calculated so that we can see the trend, and the markets look at that as economy growing or economy not growing. It would not be productive for me to look at the numbers and evaluate them in a different manner than the broader market.

[Colgando]

       It's good that people in Colgando's line of work are positive.Panic can cause a bigger mess than anything right now. I don't think we have had a recovery and if we didn't have the safety nets like FDIC, unemployment benefits, etc.... we would have had a bigger crash than the Great Depression.I don't think it is a coincidence that the economy starts to slip when QE2 ended.There is just too much propping up going on that is digging us deeper in a hole. The printing of the dollar could cause a currency crisis, worldwide. The US and Europe have enough gold to go back to using the gold standard. Brazil and other emerging markets don't so they would be in trouble.US treasuries and the dollar are still being bought. That says to me that the whole world is sinking along with us.

      Researcher

Actually, there are many more that are negative at this point, hence the volatility in the markets. The Fed Reserve served its purpose, which is price stability and full employment, they are still working on the full employment mandate, if they did not act, we would have experienced massive deflation which would have been terrible. Price stability is a good thing.


On the contrary, the cooling off we are seeing now I think is a typical characteristic of the business cycle. Economies accelerate during the initial up swing of an expansion, often times contributed to companies cutting too much during the down turn, cutting too many employees, cutting inventories too much, as the economy turns the corner, there is a natural need to hire staff and increase inventory to meet the increased demand. Now, that part of the recovery has run its course, the economy is trying to move into cruise control, the acceleration phase is over. Problem is, we are in unprecedented times, US Fiscal problems, Euro zone sovereign debt problems, China inflation and hard landing fears, the arab spring, grid lock in DC, etc. These headwinds are enough to jack everything up. An analogy if you will, the global economy is a 4 engine Boeing airplane right now running on 3 engines, we can still make the flight, if we go to 2 engines, we can only go so far before we crash. The question remains, will we go down to two engines, time will tell.

[robert angel]

Regarding the economic numbers, the statistics, the 'trends' and all most of the the stuff you read, see and hear in the 'mainstream media' and  most certainly what you get from the govt--if it's bad, figure it's actually worse than they're letting off, in my opinion. Most people want to be optimistic and look for silver linings in the storm clouds and that most certainly includes the mainstream USA media, which basically accepts the pap and drivel the govt. feeds them, wholesale. Not having two major, separate news wires anymore, only makes it easier for the govt.

What's odd is that mindset that is used in the mainstream media, regarding the economy and our wars overseas.
Compared to how graphically and objectively they reported the Vietnam war--with full color pictures of soldiers, bleeding and dying, while tied to the army tanks, cargo jet liners unloading flags draped coffins, etc--all in mainsream magazines--on the covers of 'Life Magazine' and the like, --the govt today has the media eating out of their hands, while they feed us increasingly unbelievable crumbs of optimism.

The sort of coverage we had back then, drove people into the streets and besides giving incentives for people to protest, basically also caused people to riot and burn whole neighborhoods in some places.

[Colgando]

Regarding the economic numbers, the statistics, the 'trends' and all most of the the stuff you read, see and hear in the 'mainstream media' and  most certainly what you get from the govt--if it's bad, figure it's actually worse than they're letting off,  in my opinion. Most people want to be optimistic and look for silver linings in the storm clouds and that most certainly includes the mainstream USA media.
What's odd is that mindset that is used in the mainstream media, regarding the economy and our wars overseas.
Compared to how graphically and objectively they reported the Vietnam war--with full color pictures of soldiers, bleeding and dying, while tied to the army tanks, cargo jet liners unloading flags draped coffins, etc--all in mainsream magazines--on the covers of 'Life Magazine' and the like, --the govt today  has the media eating out of their hands, while they feed us increasingly unbelievable crumbs of optimism.
The sort of coverage we had back then, drove people into the streets and besides giving incentives for people to protest, basically also caused people in some places to riot and burn whole neighborhoods in some places.

Personally, I would not pay attention to main stream media for objective analysis, that is 2nd hand information once it hits the main stream media. I would go directly to the economic reports themselves, those reports are solid. They often times revise GDP and unemployment numbers and maybe other numbers as well.

[fathertime]

Personally, I would not pay attention to main stream media for objective analysis, that is 2nd hand information once it hits the main stream media. I would go directly to the economic reports themselves, those reports are solid. They often times revise GDP and unemployment numbers and maybe other numbers as well.

Colgado, the way the measure GDP now, it is practically impossible for the number to go down for very long.  Since that is the number/method our lying pitiful govt is using to measure whether we are in a recession or depression, it holds no validity.  .   We have been in a deep recession since 2008 and there has been no recovery nor will there be for a very long time. 


You did not comment directly upon the false manner in which the all-important and golden GDP number is reached, the short video explained in a very clear way how the past presidents have chipped away at the GDP number's validity.   I mean how the hell can they conjure up a number that they think a homeowner should be paying in rent, if he didn’t already own his home and add that to the GDP.  Add up all the accounting tricks and you'll see it is a stinking load of BS that makes Enron and Fannie Mae look like saints in comparison. 




Fathertime! 

[Colgando]

Colgado, the way the measure GDP now, it is practically impossible for the number to go down for very long.  Since that is the number/method our lying pitiful govt is using to measure whether we are in a recession or depression, it holds no validity.  .   We have been in a deep recession since 2008 and there has been no recovery nor will there be for a very long time. 


You did not comment directly upon the false manner in which the all-important and golden GDP number is reached, the short video explained in a very clear way how the past presidents have chipped away at the GDP number's validity.   I mean how the hell can they conjure up a number that they think a homeowner should be paying in rent, if he didn’t already own his home and add that to the GDP.  Add up all the accounting tricks and you'll see it is a stinking load of BS that makes Enron and Fannie Mae look like saints in comparison. 




Fathertime!

Sure, I will give you picking apart the GDP number, be that as it may, the number is still used to indicate economic growth or decline. This number is what is priced in, this number people make decisions on, that is the way it is. It is not a useful exercise IMO to go down that rabbit hole. It is just one number, the consumer confidence index, right track wrong track, I am more interested in how numbers effect behavior, if the GDP number is no good, fine, people still use it and price it in. Markets move on the GDP number. It is useful to see where the growth or decline is coming from within the GDP number thought I think.


Believe me, if the markets believed we did not have a recovery, then things would be far worse, much worse.

[fathertime]

Sure, I will give you picking apart the GDP number, be that as it may, the number is still used to indicate economic growth or decline. 

Hey Colgado,  Ok now we are finally getting somewhere possibly.  So it appears you are granting me that the GDP number is a false number, just utter bullship, that is measured vastly different than it was in times past.    Now if that is the case and that is the SOLE number used to determine if there is a recession, then how the hell can our government shill economists on TV now say we are out of the recession?  How could a person who really looks into the fine details of this number think anything different. 


YOu know we are able to borrow money based on the fact that our debt is a certain % of our GDP.  In our case our debt  to GDP is close to 100%, if we were to use the govt numbers.  Now if we were to use a more factual number for our GDP without the dishonest govt accounting tricks, then our debt to GDP is around 150%.  Now %'s like put us in Greece territory.  A collapse is inevitable without massive money printing and further devaluation of our dollar.   


An explanation as to why we haven't already collapsed is that we are the shortest midget in the room as an old buddy of mine once said.   I can see why individual companies are still making money so I don't think that the stock market necessarily has to take a major dive, but that is also not entirely reflective of how the people of the nation are living.
Fathertime!   

[Researcher]

    I have to agree with Colgando on the fact that things could be much worse.The measures the gov't took were more damage control than anything. Bailing out the banks probably saved our financial system from ruin and bailing out GM helped to save many jobs but I don't believe we have had a recovery. It is all PR BS to keep people and companies from losing confidence.

     I think we need deflation. Wages aren't rising and companies are making record profits.There is an imbalance in the free market caused by the government's efforts to keep prices stable. I can understand the gov't not letting the financial system completely meltdown but it (the gov't) has gotten too involved in the free market.

   Researcher

[Alabamaboy!]

If the government really wanted to jump start the economy they should have released all the QE money to the people. Because it immediately would have been back in circulation with people buying things. But they gave it to corporations which are just sitting on it. If they give more, they will sit on that too. They do not seem to be using it for job creation. On the contrary it seems like they are still cutting jobs but sitting on the cash.

[fathertime]

    I have to agree with Colgando on the fact that things could be much worse.The measures the gov't took were more damage control than anything. Bailing out the banks probably saved our financial system from ruin and bailing out GM helped to save many jobs but I don't believe we have had a recovery. It is all PR BS to keep people and companies from losing confidence.

     I think we need deflation. Wages aren't rising and companies are making record profits.There is an imbalance in the free market caused by the government's efforts to keep prices stable. I can understand the gov't not letting the financial system completely meltdown but it (the gov't) has gotten too involved in the free market.

   Researcher

i'm afraid i have to agree with colgado and Researcher too, it definitely could have been a lot worse.  obozo has done a good job of slowing the pace of the decline, but i think the long term consequences will now be worse.


interesting news today about deflation, Researcher.  Housing is taking another nosedive down 5.9% year over year and rightfully so, housing should fall another 30-40% around my parts!   Also gold is down $80 dollars today, quite a steep fall.  Deflation will not be allowed to take hold though, all the retirement systems die if we start deflating too much, everything relies upon 'growth' phony or not!


Fathertime!

[Jeff S]

If the government really wanted to jump start the economy they should have released all the QE money to the people. Because it immediately would have been back in circulation with people buying things. But they gave it to corporations which are just sitting on it. If they give more, they will sit on that too. They do not seem to be using it for job creation. On the contrary it seems like they are still cutting jobs but sitting on the cash.

Remember what happened when Bush gave tax rebates to the people? The government can only hurt things - not help. If they backed off trying to engineer the economy altogether and got their own house in order, all this crap would sort itself out.

[Colgando]

Hey Colgado,  Ok now we are finally getting somewhere possibly.  So it appears you are granting me that the GDP number is a false number, just utter bullship, that is measured vastly different than it was in times past.    Now if that is the case and that is the SOLE number used to determine if there is a recession, then how the hell can our government shill economists on TV now say we are out of the recession?  How could a person who really looks into the fine details of this number think anything different. 


YOu know we are able to borrow money based on the fact that our debt is a certain % of our GDP.  In our case our debt  to GDP is close to 100%, if we were to use the govt numbers.  Now if we were to use a more factual number for our GDP without the dishonest govt accounting tricks, then our debt to GDP is around 150%.  Now %'s like put us in Greece territory.  A collapse is inevitable without massive money printing and further devaluation of our dollar.   


An explanation as to why we haven't already collapsed is that we are the shortest midget in the room as an old buddy of mine once said.   I can see why individual companies are still making money so I don't think that the stock market necessarily has to take a major dive, but that is also not entirely reflective of how the people of the nation are living.
Fathertime!   

Cool man, yeah, we may be getting somewhere.


I gave you the GDP argument, you gave me the things could be worse argument.


Sure, honestly, if we do not get 1 party control of the US govt in 2012 and grid lock persist further promoting uncertainty, things could get really bad. If the Eurozone does not figure out how to give strength back to the Euro, figure out how to restore confidence in their monetary union, things could get really bad. If the US does not make structural changes to its fiscal trajectory, then things could get really bad. I think this is why we see such violence in the markets, uncertainty is at terrible levels, will they, will they not, will they, will they not, they still have time type of situation.


Yeah man, tale of two stories, people who have jobs and the wealthy are doing just fine. Our middle and lower classes are being squeezed. The labor and housing markets are not functioning correctly, we have a long way to go. Unfortunately, DC has to get their act together. Bernanke has run out of tools, companies are not hiring, DC has to get its act together. They are the only ones with the tools to make things better. If they fail in DC over the next 2 years, God help us.

[piglett]

the question i have is this
 
what will happen if "bozo" gets a 2nd term?
 
what will happen if some guy like Perry gets in?
 
i myself think the company's that are holding a ton of cash will keep holding it if we get 4 more years of bozo. now if we have a party change in the whitehouse & a really big change up maybe company's start to let that cash flow & things start to get better.
 
 
i guess time will tell
 
pig

[Researcher]

     It probably doesn't matter who is elected the economy isn't going to improve any time soon.Companies aren't hiring because they don't have to.They can make record profits with what they have so why hire. If things improve I would be suspicious that the gov't is playing around with the economy again or looking the other way like they did with Bernie Madoff or the mortgage backed securities, which started in the Clinton era.Manufacturing jobs were leaving by the boat load while the housing bubble was causing construction jobs to boom.Now that the housing bubble has busted we have alot fewer manufacturing jobs.....thanks Slick Willy!

     Researcher

[robert angel]

I put more faith in the TV ratings than I do the GDP or employment figures.
What will be the start of the end in terms of other nations exaberating our decline down a slippery slope, will be when the oil producing nations insist on being paid for barrels of oil in a currency other than dollars--and they are already talking about doing so.
People think the Chinese yuan could become the world's currency---the international reserve currency,  but the Chinese make too much money off of the USA to let that happen--at least for now.

[Colgando]

     It probably doesn't matter who is elected the economy isn't going to improve any time soon.Companies aren't hiring because they don't have to.They can make record profits with what they have so why hire. If things improve I would be suspicious that the gov't is playing around with the economy again or looking the other way like they did with Bernie Madoff or the mortgage backed securities, which started in the Clinton era.Manufacturing jobs were leaving by the boat load while the housing bubble was causing construction jobs to boom.Now that the housing bubble has busted we have alot fewer manufacturing jobs.....thanks Slick Willy!

     Researcher

I would disagree with that, it is possible to implement policies that create jobs in the US, not sure the politicians have the will to do it, IMO, they would need to scrap the minimum wage, significantly role back regulations and then further incentives companies to hire. This seems like an unlikely scenario but the equation is there to do it, the US govt needs to create a profit motive for companies to expand in the US and then make this motive permanent. The ability for the congress to change the rules each session does not inspire confidence in the system. One thing for sure with China, they are trying to get paid, a capitalist can take that to the bank. Not sure if the US is trying to get paid, doesn't seem like it looking at DC, better to sit on excess cash and not invest in companies whos revenues are primarily exposed to the US middle market consumer.

[Colgando]

the question i have is this
 
what will happen if "bozo" gets a 2nd term?
 
what will happen if some guy like Perry gets in?
 
i myself think the company's that are holding a ton of cash will keep holding it if we get 4 more years of bozo. now if we have a party change in the whitehouse & a really big change up maybe company's start to let that cash flow & things start to get better.
 
 
i guess time will tell
 
pig

Hey Pig!


My opinion is that "what happens if we continue to have divided govt and gridlock". Uncertainty is the problem right now. The US needs to decide if it is going left or right. Personally, I would prefer a center-right govt, in my view, these ideas are the best to deal with the problems. If we get a center-left or left govt, than that would not be good for the fiscal situation cause the left has no desire to stop spending and desire to take money out of the private sector and place into the public sector. Either way, at least we will have certainty with the US govt and everyone can make their decisions. If Obama gets re-elected, most capitalist I would imagine would take their capital elsewhere to get a return.

[michaelb]

Manufacturing jobs were leaving by the boat load

Actually, I have a very easy way to handle the "offshoring" of US manufacturing jobs. Make a law that stipulates these things:

1. Do not allow the importation of any product which uses a trademark and/or brand name registered in the United States....this means no more Dodge cars assembled in Mexico, no more Radio Flyer wagons made in China, no more Levi's jeans made in Haiti....etc, the list would be quite long.

2. Do not allow the importation of the same (or substantially the same) product using a different name in an attempt to circumvent #1---that is to say, don't build a car overseas that for all intents and purposes looks like a Chevrolet and rebadge it as a "Brand X" car, don't try to bring in the Haitian Levi's under the "Jones Jeans" brand name.....not to say that the Haitians can't send "Jones Jeans" to the US, just that "Jones Jeans" can't be a copy of the Levi's formerly made in the US....hope I made that clear.

3. Do not defend any US trademarks or patents for products which the owner of the trademark or patent has of his own volition decided to make outside of the US....in other words...Oh, you closed your factory in Ohio, moved your manufacturing facilities to China and now some upstart company in Vietnam is making knock offs of it? Well isn't that just too bad, boo hoo, cry me a river (but on the other hand, viciously defend patents and trademarks of products still made in the US from foreign infringement). 

I have no problem with companies in China, Mexico, or anyplace else selling products to the US (that is, if they meet certain safety standards, come to think of it, some of that Chinese junk doesn't), so long as they use their own designs and brand names, but when companies lay off their US workers and then turn around and import the stuff that used to be made in the US, I don't think they should have the right to continue to use the US brand name and US designs nor enjoy US protection any longer.

[Jeff S]

LOL. Great rule. The day it went into effect, GM would have shut their doors and send a few hundred thousand workers packing. Then you could only pick from Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, Volkswagons, etc. Woe be to any moron who tried to open another American designed and built car company to try to fill the void.


BTW - Who'll be the arbiter of deciding whether Jones Jeans from Jamaica look enough like Levis to be considered a copy? Some mid-level gumment bureaucrat with a Napoleon complex and a bad comb-over? That'll work great when FexEx envelopes with two week first class tickets to Jamaica arrive for an five minute inspection tour of the factory land on his desk.


I have a better idea - repeal all business laws passed since Jimmy Carter was elected and replace it with a simple, concise set of regulatory standards. Maximum 10 pages. Cut corporate taxes to zero (Corporations don't pay taxes, the people who do business with them do) and stay out of the way.

[michaelb]

LOL. Great rule. The day it went into effect, GM would have shut their doors and send a few hundred thousand workers packing. Then you could only pick from Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, Volkswagons, etc. Woe be to any moron who tried to open another American designed and built car company to try to fill the void.

Or perhaps reopen their doors in Saginaw and Flint?

BTW - Who'll be the arbiter of deciding whether Jones Jeans from Jamaica look enough like Levis to be considered a copy? Some mid-level gumment bureaucrat with a Napoleon complex and a bad comb-over? That'll work great when FexEx envelopes with two week first class tickets to Jamaica arrive for an five minute inspection tour of the factory land on his desk.

Shirley, you don't mean to imply that US government officials can be swayed from the proper performance of their duties, do you? My goodness, I must inform Captain Renault about the gambling on the premises!

I have a better idea - repeal all business laws passed since Jimmy Carter was elected and replace it with a simple, concise set of regulatory standards. Maximum 10 pages. Cut corporate taxes to zero (Corporations don't pay taxes, the people who do business with them do) and stay out of the way.

Agreed, I learned a long time ago that "Businesses don't paytaxes, people pay taxes." Often, under orders from government entities, businesses collect taxes and forward them to the government, but their investors, customers and employees are the people who pay them, via lower dividends, higher prices and lower wages.

[Jeff S]

GM wouldn't be allowed to open their Saginaw and Flint factories and move their Mexican manufactured trucks and SUVs there, even if they were staffed with $8/ hr non-union employees, because it would shift their CAFE (fleet average fuel economy) standard over the limit. That or they would have to build an extra two or three Aveos for every Silverado built and either park the Avios in a giant parking lot somewhere or crush and recycle them. But alas, even if they could sell those Aveos to anyone besides the rent-a-car companies, they lose money on the extra Aveo production because of the $2000 cost in every car because of union retirement benefits that Honda and Toyota don't have. Think American consumers are daft enough to pay $2000 more for an Aveo than the equivalent Kia, Toyota, Honda or Nissan?

[Colgando]

Actually, I have a very easy way to handle the "offshoring" of US manufacturing jobs. Make a law that stipulates these things:

1. Do not allow the importation of any product which uses a trademark and/or brand name registered in the United States....this means no more Dodge cars assembled in Mexico, no more Radio Flyer wagons made in China, no more Levi's jeans made in Haiti....etc, the list would be quite long.

2. Do not allow the importation of the same (or substantially the same) product using a different name in an attempt to circumvent #1---that is to say, don't build a car overseas that for all intents and purposes looks like a Chevrolet and rebadge it as a "Brand X" car, don't try to bring in the Haitian Levi's under the "Jones Jeans" brand name.....not to say that the Haitians can't send "Jones Jeans" to the US, just that "Jones Jeans" can't be a copy of the Levi's formerly made in the US....hope I made that clear.

3. Do not defend any US trademarks or patents for products which the owner of the trademark or patent has of his own volition decided to make outside of the US....in other words...Oh, you closed your factory in Ohio, moved your manufacturing facilities to China and now some upstart company in Vietnam is making knock offs of it? Well isn't that just too bad, boo hoo, cry me a river (but on the other hand, viciously defend patents and trademarks of products still made in the US from foreign infringement). 

I have no problem with companies in China, Mexico, or anyplace else selling products to the US (that is, if they meet certain safety standards, come to think of it, some of that Chinese junk doesn't), so long as they use their own designs and brand names, but when companies lay off their US workers and then turn around and import the stuff that used to be made in the US, I don't think they should have the right to continue to use the US brand name and US designs nor enjoy US protection any longer.

All Free Trade agreements would have to be repealed for this to happen.