Riots in the streets 2008-2013 style.

[Alabamaboy!]

Add me to that list as well.

Excellent, welcome aboard! Spread the word!

[euforia51]

First of all, I'm no Christian so have little direct knowledge, but I have read the bible in depth, and have had some serious conversations with intelligent, successful people that have describe themselves as Christians. Very few that I have talked to have ever thought Jesus would come down from on high and initiate great changes in our society just because they asked. It's called free will. On the other hand, all have prayed that a force from on high would guide their decisions to just, moral and serve the greater good. That doesn't should like an act of desperation nor an attempt to drum up phony support. If you think he's a desperate phony, then just come out and say it. To use his faith as an attempt to discredit him says more about you than him.

First of all, I am not accusing the man of being a desperate phony nor am I debating the concept of freewill; so you need to re-read my post a bit more in depth instead of attempting to twist my words around to back me into a corner. If I am incorrect in that perception, then I apologize and we can move on. Once again, I will make this real simple:

Did I use the word desperation in the context of an act? Yes I did.
Am I using the man's faith as an attempt to discredit him? No, I am not.
Do I believe there should be seperation of church and state? Yes I do.
Am I still interested in the possibility of Rick Perry for president? Yes I am.
Are you sure all have prayed to a higher power for the greater good?

Oddly enough at this point, despite the prior observations and statements regarding the prayer meeting last weekend, in my mind he would still seem to hold the most promise out of anyone I'm aware of as of today. And in that light, I am in fact interested in finding out more about him and what he will bring to the table. Unfortunately however, I believe he should leave the religion out of the politics. Is that my call to make? No it is not. But it is my opinion and I am entitled to it. Is that not called Freewill?

There should only be two issues in this election: cut spending and create jobs. That is it.
...
I and most people I know have vowed to vote for whoever appears to have the best capability to do those two things the best.

Agreed with exception of the jobs. I don't believe it is the government's responsiblity to create jobs. And I believe anyone running on that promise is flat-out lying and grossly selling a misconception that is dangerous to the fabric of the country. Because now we have a percentage of the population who's sitting around on their arses waiting for the government to tell them ... hey we have jobs now ... let's all get back to work! Ding! Ding! Ding!    Instead, let them change that empty promise to something that sounds more like creating a more favorable climate for companies to prosper and hire more people. However, this also requires some effort from the population in return.

For example, we can all sit around and bitch that all of the manufacturing jobs have gone to China and beyond. Yet some of us are still the first in line when that new smartphone (Made in China) comes out because some of us just had to have it. Some of us can still sit around and bitch that unemployment doesn't cover all of our expenses for things like $100 / month smartphone bills. Yet some of us have not done a thing to reduce that bill on our own because we are waiting for the government to create some jobs so we can get back to work.
 
I dare any one of these presidential candidates to quit running around lying with the promise of jobs and run on the more authentic proposition that they can and will lead us where we want to go if we are willing to also pull our own weight.

[Alabamaboy!]

First of all, I am not accusing the man of being a desperate phony nor am I debating the concept of freewill; so you need to re-read my post a bit more in depth instead of attempting to twist my words around to back me into a corner. If I am incorrect in that perception, then I apologize and we can move on. Once again, I will make this real simple:
Did I use the word desperation in the context of an act? Yes I did.
Am I using the man's faith as an attempt to discredit him? No, I am not.
Do I believe there should be seperation of church and state? Yes I do.
Am I still interested in the possibility of Rick Perry for president? Yes I am.
Are you sure all have prayed to a higher power for the greater good?
Oddly enough at this point, despite the prior observations and statements regarding the prayer meeting last weekend, in my mind he would still seem to hold the most promise out of anyone I'm aware of as of today. And in that light, I am in fact interested in finding out more about him and what he will bring to the table. Unfortunately however, I believe he should leave the religion out of the politics. Is that my call to make? No it is not. But it is my opinion and I am entitled to it. Is that not called Freewill?Agreed with exception of the jobs. I don't believe it is the government's responsiblity to create jobs. And I believe anyone running on that promise is flat-out lying and grossly selling a misconception that is dangerous to the fabric of the country. Because now we have a percentage of the population who's sitting around on their arses waiting for the government to tell them ... hey we have jobs now ... let's all get back to work! Instead, let them change that promise to something that sounds more like creating a more favorable climate for companies to prosper and hire more people. This also requires some effort from the population in return.
 
For example, you can sit around and bitch that all of the manufacturing jobs have gong to China and beyond. Yet you're still the first in line when that new smartphone (Made in China) comes out because you just had to have it. And then you can sit around and bitch that unemployment doesn't cover all of your expenses for things like $100 / month smartphone bills. Yet you have not done a thing to reduce that bill on your own.
 
I dare any one of these presidential candidates to quit running around lying with the promise of jobs and run on the more authentic proposition that they will lead us if we are willing to also pull our own weight.

Euf, no offense, but I don't know where you are living where there are a lot of jobs, but here, there are not. And in most of the country there are not. Thus the record numbers of people without jobs, on food stamps, etc. It is not the government's job to actually create the jobs....they will not be working for the government. I am suggesting that the government sets the conditions that will foster job growth and corporations to come to the US and stay in the US. If we cannot do that, we will suffer as a country. Of course it would be better if we did not need to concern ourselves with this issue, but the fact it is required if we are to maintain our position as a superpower and  a thriving nation, rather than a punchline of a bad joke.

Here is an example for you consider. Compare what has happened in two different places. California which is outright anti-business, and Singapore which is super pro-business. The governmental policies of these two places has caused their fortunes to go in 180 degree different directions. And in this time one place has a huge surplus of $, and the other is bankrupt.

Nobody is going to open a huge manufacturing plant in the US under the current administration. Hell, even the companies with strong balance sheets who are already in the US are just sitting on mountains of cash because they feel this administration is anti-business. And while the government is dicking around blocking free market growth, these companies are beginning to expand more and more abroad.

I don't get you that someone who is running on the policy of promoting job creation is dangerous to the fabric of this country. On the contrary, I feel it is the most positive, empowering turn of events which could possibly happen. Without job creation, no matter how we do it, we are sunk. At this time almost all service industries are dying here in the States. I just went out right now and there were stores and restaurants closed all over the place, even churches closed!! There are huge outflows of cash from the stock market. People are not investing, businesses are not re-investing in themselves. Instead they are hording cash. Everything is dying and contracting. And that trend is accelerating, it is not getting better. At least not here in the US. Money is going into gold and Treasuries by the bushel. Very little job creation.

[Alabamaboy!]

Here is something I just read on another forum that would be very eye opening for most people:

The U.S. Congress sets a federal budget every year in the trillions of dollars. Few people know how much money that is so we created a breakdown of federal spending in simple terms. Let's put the 2011 federal budget into perspective:
U.S. income: $2,170,000,000,000
Federal budget: $3,820,000,000,000
New debt: $1,650,000,000,000
National debt: $14,271,000,000,000
Recent budget cut: $38,500,000,000 (about 1 percent of the budget)
It helps to think about these numbers in terms that we can relate to. Let's remove eight zeros from these numbers and pretend this is the household budget for the fictitious Jones family.
Total annual income for the Jones family: $21,700
Amount of money the Jones family spent: $38,200
Amount of new debt added to the credit card: $16,500
Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
Amount cut from the budget: $385
So in effect last month Congress, or in this example the Jones family, sat down at the kitchen table and agreed to cut $385 from its annual budget. What family would cut $385 of spending in order to solve $16,500 in deficit spending? It is a start, although hardly a solution.
Now after years of this, the Jones family has $142,710 of debt on its credit card (which is the equivalent of the national debt). You would think the Jones family would recognize and address this situation, but it does not. Neither does Congress. The root of the debt problem is that the voters typically do not send people to Congress to save money.

[euforia51]

Euf, no offense,
...
I am suggesting that the government sets the conditions that will foster job growth and corporations to come to the US and stay in the US.
...

And while the government is dicking around blocking free market growth, these companies are beginning to expand more and more abroad.

...
I don't get you that someone who is running on the policy of promoting job creation is dangerous to the fabric of this country.

Bama ... we are in fact on the same page. I am suggesting the very points you made; starting with the first point in bold. This is a HUGE difference between what you stated and the blatant lie that the candidates are spoon feeding the people; the creation of jobs. I believe you missed the point because you are obviously smart enough to know that this is a given ... it is not the government's job to create jobs. Unfortunately, a percentage of the population at large is sitting on their sorry arses waiting for Obama, or Perry, or someone, anyone, to ring the dinner bell and tell them that jobs are hot and ready. And this is a lie and a misconception. I intended for my last post to state this very thing. I apologize if it did not. However...
 
Corporations have been expanding abroad for way more than a decade now. On a side note, I was dating a girl over 10 years ago. And it was that Christmas when I was buying gifts that I noticed how much stuff was made in China. My point to combat was to quit buying! Just stop! Buy used. Buy from someone on e-Bay or Craigslist who's selling and may need the money. If everyone did this, and I mean everyone ... watch how fast the economy in China would collapse. Watch how fast our own companies may take a second look at where they are manufacturing. Watch how fast our government and corporations will wake up and finally get serious about putting some real resolutions on the table; instead of the finger-pointing side-show they've been distracting us with for far too long. It's not funny anymore.
 
Your analogy with the Jones' is a good one (and I've read and heard a similar) and I have yet to see a candidate spell it out this way for the people so they can better understand just how serious this debacle really is. And they won't. And that is the sin of the misconception. They will just run on the broken record promise of creating jobs and cutting spending ... blah, blah, blah. Just like Obama did ... change, change, change. It's no wonder you're all so disappointed. And that is the danger to the fabric of our nation of which I speak.

[Jeff S]

Yes, I am quite certain that all that I have talked to about the issue expressed that viewpoint. If you are aware of some who I talked to who do not have that viewpoint, and withheld it, I'd be eager to hear about it.


This isn't about whether you like or dislike Perry, think we should cut spending or spend our way to prosperity. We've always had a low tolerance of ridicule of other's faith around here.

[Researcher]

       I agree the two most important issues are cutting government spending and jobs.I don't see either happening anytime soon. There are no candidates out there that seem willing to work on either subject. Obama has had time to work on these things but instead we have a health care bill that just had a major part of it declared unconstitutional, unemployment over 9%, credit rating downgrade for the first time ever, and we're involved in 3 wars. Way to turn things around Obama!

    Rick Perry?? He has shot himself in foot with this religious stuff.Personally that would not stop me from voting for him but it does keep alot of folks from voting for him. I will vote purely on the two issues at hand but many people won't. Michele Bachman won the straw poll but this being a submissive wife thing will cost her the all important women's vote.Mitt Romney? I'm not impressed with this guy at all. He's a business man....big deal.

     Cutting corporate taxes will have little to do with jobs coming back.As Euphoria stated earlier GE paid zero,thats $0, in taxes last year and they are still moving business over  seas.Cutting regulations and taxes needs to be done because they have gotten outrageous.If you are counting on that bringing jobs back well good luck, ain't gonna happen. Companies are making things over seas to 1) Get in on the ground floor of emerging markets and 2) Make things as cheap as they can so they can export them to the US and sell them for the most they can get. This is why companies are making record profits while main street is and will continue to suffer.We will never be able to compete fairly with these third world countries and the seemingly unending supply of cheap labor, I don't care how cheap taxes are or how many regulations we roll back. The wealth of the US has been and is continuing to be drained by globalization.

       I read a recent article that talked about the reason small businesses are hurting here in the US. The reason: No demand...no customers. Duh!! Customers have lost their jobs or are worried about losing the one they have.

      Researcher

[Alabamaboy!]

I was thinking the emerging markets would be the place to be right now. A place like Brazil or Colombia looked great on paper, the middle class expanding greatly, accelerating economy, relatively cheap labor compared to US. But look what has happened to their stock markets since the beginning of the year. They are both down like three times more than the US. Their businesses are struggling because of a global slowdown. SO in turn their newly developed middle class will also suffer.  Because the US is still the straw that stirs the drink obviously. I think the whole world will continue to suffer greatly until the US gets its [snip] together. I recently chatted with a stock broker that I opened an account with in Medellin. With a company called Alianza de Valores. She told me that everyone is freaking out there because their previously booming stock market is now tanking. She advised me to sit on the sidelines until things get straightened out there. I have a feeling nothing will get "straightened out" until the US gets its house in order.

By the way the number one stock market in the world for 2011 is Venezuela's! Up over 45%!

[Jeff S]

That GE is still moving jobs overseas even when paying zero taxes says a lot about the business climate here in the US. It is regulations. For instance, GMs cars and trucks being built in Mexico - not because of taxes - not because of wages - because of Federally mandated CAFE standards that dictate what their average fleet fuel economy must be for their US built vehicles. People want Chevy pickups more than they want Geo Metros so in order to make enough trucks to fulfill demand, they HAVE to build them outside the US.

[Alabamaboy!]

I am not sure if I already mentioned in this forum or not, but Boeing wants to build a large plant in South Carolina which would employ a lot of people to build the new "Dreamliner" jet. But the government is blocking it somehow because South Carolina is a non-union state and Washington State is a union state. The end result, Boeing is using a system of sub contractors, alot of whom are foreign companies to piece together their jets.

The Unions should just dry up and blow away, because this is not the time to be crying for $40/hour wages when the rest of the world does the same work for $10/hour or less. If we are going to compete, we need to allow corporations to do business as they see fit, and compete on a global scale.

If I was Boeing, I would just pack up and split to wherever would let me get the job done the way I want to. This is a perfect example of how stupid and arrogant the US is.

We have been living in a protective bubble for about 100 years or more. Now we must compete against the rest of the world and we are playing games with unions and baloney like that? Crazy man.

[Researcher]

   The CAFE regulation is an example of how silly regulations are now.Why in the world is the government trying to regulate this? With gas prices getting out of sight now the consumer will eventually take care of how much MPG a vehicle gets.But even if CAFE was done away with GM would not come back to the US. I don't know about anyone else but I haven't noticed any huge drop in the price of those Mexico made vehicles and GM isn't going to give up the huge profit it gains from using cheap labor in Mexico.I believe that CAFE is bad regulation but I also believe GM used it as an excuse to move out of the country. These poor, poor giant corporations are making record profits by making products as cheap as they can and selling them to the US consumer for the most they can get.The US consumer needs to wake up and stop spending so much money so we can have massive deflation and things can balance out.

      Researcher

[Researcher]

I am not sure if I already mentioned in this forum or not, but Boeing wants to build a large plant in South Carolina which would employ a lot of people to build the new "Dreamliner" jet. But the government is blocking it somehow because South Carolina is a non-union state and Washington State is a union state. The end result, Boeing is using a system of sub contractors, alot of whom are foreign companies to piece together their jets.

The Unions should just dry up and blow away, because this is not the time to be crying for $40/hour wages when the rest of the world does the same work for $10/hour or less. If we are going to compete, we need to allow corporations to do business as they see fit, and compete on a global scale.

If I was Boeing, I would just pack up and split to wherever would let me get the job done the way I want to. This is a perfect example of how stupid and arrogant the US is.

We have been living in a protective bubble for about 100 years or more. Now we must compete against the rest of the world and we are playing games with unions and baloney like that? Crazy man.

     I agree AB, somewhat.The unions have gotten out of control but they are here for a reason.Keep in mind that the US has been an industrialized nation for many years and we have learned lessons that maany other countries haven't when it comes to allowing companies too much freedom. I think the unions need to change but I don't want to have to relearn everything the US has through the years because other countries have yet to go through their own industrial revolution.

     Researcher

[piglett]

I am suggesting that the government sets the conditions that will foster job growth and corporations to come to the US and stay in the US. If we cannot do that, we will suffer as a country.

anyone who wishes to to spend their hard earned money to set up a large operation here in the US & employ a great number of workers should probably lay off the hard drugs.
 
the current business climate is so anti productive that you would have to be legally insane to want to employ anyone IMHO. between the government,EPA,& the dam trial lawyers, i just don't see how you are going to prosper.
 
 
pig

[Researcher]

anyone who wishes to to spend their hard earned money to set up a large operation here in the US & employ a great number of workers should probably lay off the hard drugs.
 
the current business climate is so anti productive that you would have to be legally insane to want to employ anyone IMHO. between the government,EPA,& the dam trial lawyers, i just don't see how you are going to prosper.
 
 
pig

   Hey Piglett, come on down south where Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, Volkswagon, Hyundai/Kia have all set up plants and are kicking arse....with American workers. I believe you have bought in to the same ol' crap that big US companies are spreading around as excuses for going over seas for near slave labor.

      Researcher

[piglett]

 I believe you have bought in to the same ol' crap that big US companies are spreading around as excuses for going over seas for near slave labor.

      Researcher

no i just see the hostile business environment & wouldn't wish to employ a single person at a bubble gum stand given the way the deck is stacked against you.
if billy-bob hurts his little toe at work he may get a sharp lawyer & try to sue you for everything you ever worked for .....why would  a little guy take the chance??
 
on second thought maybe i open up a contract hit agency & offer to start bumping off people who file BS lawsuits & try to take things that they never earned. I'll have to work on my business model & get back to ya later ,but i like the concept.
 
 
pig 

[Researcher]

no i just see the hostile business environment & wouldn't wish to employ a single person at a bubble gum stand given the way the deck is stacked against you.
if billy-bob hurts his little toe at work he may get a sharp lawyer & try to sue you for everything you ever worked for .....why would  a little guy take the chance??
 
on second thought maybe i open up a contract hit agency & offer to start bumping off people who file BS lawsuits & try to take things that they never earned. I'll have to work on my business model & get back to ya later ,but i like the concept.
 
 
pig 

      But Pig, my point is that foreign companies are coming here, setting up shop and prospering.I think the US corporate mindset of get rich quick is hurting us just as much as anything but many refuse to see it.

       Researcher

[Jeff S]

Yes - just toured the enormous Hyundai facility in Tijuana last week. It's like a city in itself.

[Alabamaboy!]

   Hey Piglett, come on down south where Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, Volkswagon, Hyundai/Kia have all set up plants and are kicking arse....with American workers. I believe you have bought in to the same ol' crap that big US companies are spreading around as excuses for going over seas for near slave labor.

      Researcher

US workers can be super productive if given the chance, especially with the technology that is currently available. Especially after they lose their $80K/yr job with a union company and live a few years on government assistance. I think you would find them lined up down the steet to get jobs that pay $40K with reduced benefits. I know I would. Just as Researcher pointed out above, foreign companies have done just that here in the good Old USA. I do believe however that most or all of those companies above are operating in a non-union situation. So their wages and benefits are not out of control and therefore can compete with other countries and in fact turn a good profit.
 
Hell our country is more than 1/2 empty wasteland. We could just give corporations land if they will set up shop here. Anyone who has ever traveled cross country in car could vouch for the excess empty land that is available. And land, with nearby transportation routes is something that a place like Singapore does not have.

[Alabamaboy!]

Start doing the math on what would happen if you took a couple million people off foodstamps and instead had  jobs for them where they could earn even $20-30K or so instead. Especially if there was a small VAT tax in place until the debt is paid off. With a huge batch of new consumers in the mix, we could turn around the economy very quickly.

[Researcher]

Yes - just toured the enormous Hyundai facility in Tijuana last week. It's like a city in itself.

     I toured the one in South Korea a few years back...30,000 employees.It was huge.

    Hyundai/Kia now have 2 plants in the southern US that are doing great.

     Researcher

[euforia51]

I am not sure if I already mentioned in this forum or not, but Boeing wants to build a large plant in South Carolina which would employ a lot of people to build the new "Dreamliner" jet. But the government is blocking it somehow because South Carolina is a non-union state and Washington State is a union state. The end result, Boeing is using a system of sub contractors, alot of whom are foreign companies to piece together their jets.

The fact is that plant outside of Charleston, South Cackalacki is being constructed and is close to being finished; if it isn't already. And they will assemble and deliver the new 787 Dreamliner from that facility.
 
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/charleston/index.html
 
However, as I understand it, it is not the government that is impeding ... it is the machinists unions that are/were pitching the major bitch and attempting to block Boeing from constructing this facility and assembling in a non-union state. They are a little too late. And in my mind, this is where the Obama administrations morals and ethics will either shine or tarnish. To me, doing the right thing would be they should stay the hell out of it and let Boeing decide to play ball with the unions or give them the proverbial bird. If it were up to me, I'd tell the union to take a flying leap in this case and put the thousands of eager people in the area to work for a company that is headed in the right direction as far as I can tell.
 
On a side note, if you've never been in a commerical airplane factory,  I highly recommend visiting the facility in Everett, WA where they build the 74's and the other wide-bodies. It's the most awesome thing you can imagine if you're into that sort of thing. I'm a huge fan of Boeing and I approved this post. 

[euforia51]

Hyundai/Kia now have 2 plants in the southern US that are doing great.

I've always been curious to see that Hyundai facility in Alabama. I have a friend whose company installed some automation at that joint. They told me it was really impressive. It's just too bad I'll never buy a Hyundai (or a Kia). 

[Jeff S]

Yes, the scale of that Everett facility doesn't register even when you walk through there. Unbelievable.

[Ray]

 

The unions have gotten out of control but they are here for a reason.

 
Yes, and that reason is to elect Democrats.
 
Screw the unions!
 
 
 
 
 

[Alabamaboy!]

I've always been curious to see that Hyundai facility in Alabama. I have a friend whose company installed some automation at that joint. They told me it was really impressive. It's just too bad I'll never buy a Hyundai (or a Kia). 

When I was getting my business up and running I bought a Kia Sorrento, and racked up 88K miles in 3 years and never had even the most minor of problem.

Once I had "made it" I wanted to pimp a little bit and buy a status symbol to complete my rags to riches story. So I bought a brand new Cadillac Escalade with all the options (around $65-70K with all the fixings). In two years I put less than 40K miles on it and had all kinds of problems, big and small. It was a piece of crap.

A few years ago I saw the writing on the wall about our economy and decided to stay ahead of the curve and downsize, so one of the first things I did was trade in my Escalade.....for a Kia Soul. I am much happier with the Kia. No problems. My kids even prefer it.

The problem with American cars, like American women oddly enough, are that they are high priced, high maintenance, and not very practical.

Fortunately now American cars are being produced which rival the quality of foreign cars.