Riots in the streets 2008-2013 style.

[no comment]

Another solution I have no control over is if the USA were to bring all the troops home, I'm not sure of the exact savings but it must be 100's of billions per year.  What do you think?

If there was one reason to be optimistic about Barack Obama it was that he was expected to wrap up those foreign commitments.  Now we're involved in Libya as well. 
We could cut spending by withdrawing from Afghanistan & Iraq but there would be few jobs back home for the returning soldiers.

[fathertime]

If there was one reason to be optimistic about Barack Obama it was that he was expected to wrap up those foreign commitments.  Now we're involved in Libya as well. 
We could cut spending by withdrawing from Afghanistan & Iraq but there would be few jobs back home for the returning soldiers.

As Beginthebuguin would say, I'm going to get 'drawn and quartered' for saying this but I'm going to say it anyway.   I think the soldiers would serve the country better if on a temporally basis replaced the illegal alien workforce in the fields, until we figured out how the hell we are really going to deal with that issue.   


Obozo, has been surprisingly reluctant to end the wars and to be a part of a new costly conflict seems outrageous.  Bankrupted nations can't use their limited resources like that.  The French revolution happened because the French overextended themselves involving themselves in our conflict.  If we want to keep involving ourselves all over the world, there are going to be consequences. 


Fathertime!   

[utopiacowboy]

I just read that GDP for the 2nd quarter 2011 rose 1.7% a terrible number.  To make matters worse, the number is complete crap and misleading.  Our GDP includes stupid items like Medical expenses, so if I were to get sick and run up a hospital bill of 400,000 that would be included in our nation’s GDP.  How the hell is something so negative as a man getting ill, benefit our ‘GDP’ so much?  Our nation is sicker/fatter/older than ever, and if we are going to measure GDP in a manner that counts medical expenses in such a positive manner than we are just fooling ourselves.  Our REAL economy is still contracting, even if the govt. numbers reflect something different.  In 2010, medical spending was 2.6 trillion out of our 14 trillion dollar economy, which means it is approaching 20% of our GDP.  The USA is the master of turning a negative number into something positive, I'm wondering when the rest of world will figure it all out.


Fathertime!

You want to hear something even more disturbing. Mexico spends 1/10th of what the US spends per capita on health care. Average life expectancy in the US is 3 years greater than Mexico. So for that 3 years we are spending 10 times as much money. It can't go on like this but I am sure it will. I've given up and I think the only thing that will save the US is a military coup. Of course in less than 5 more years I won't even be living here so by then I won't care at all. You're going to start to see a wave of people leaving the US in the future like rats off a sinking ship.

[euforia51]

You're going to start to see a wave of people leaving the US in the future like rats off a sinking ship.

And where do you think they are all going to go? I assume we're talking about the majority of the middle class who's buried themselves in credit card debt, BMW payments, student loans, HELOCs, and other cool things that have not only fueled the proverbial pissing contest with the Jones but have also greatly contributed to the mess.
 
The poor certainly wouldn't have the means to leave and why on earth would the rich want to? Ask anyone who's financially successful here and they will tell you the US of A is still the greatest country in the world; even with all of the BS they have been spoon feeding us.
 
I wouldn't argue that things could look (and be) very different here in 5 years. But I will say if you want to sit here and point fingers and continue to look for hope from the government instead of going out and doing what you can to seek opportunity, then you pretty much deserve what you get.
 
There was a post in another thread where a member attempted to lay blame on the moderator for not keeping the board clean and free of riff-raff posters here in recent years. I had to laugh as it seems so similar to what's going on here with the financial mess ... seems many want to just relinguish their personal responsibility and hand over their freeedom of choice, power, and decision-making to a higher authority to clean up the mess rather than make an effort to try to do it themselves. That's all fine and good if you'd like I suppose ... just be careful with what you're really asking for. Because if you do get your wish, you're likely to piss off your neighbor and pay more taxes; and that's just selfish.
 

[Ray]

I think the soldiers would serve the country better if on a temporally basis replaced the illegal alien workforce in the fields, until we figured out how the hell we are really going to deal with that issue.   

You sound like Bill & Hillary! Why aren't YOU out there picking tomatoes?
 
I'm not sure which "issue" you are talking about, but if it's the problem with farm labor, then there is already a simple solution available.
 
Offer a decent wage to American citizens and LEGAL residents for farm labor. If there still aren't enough workers available, then  there is the existing H2A agricultural visa available to farmers to meet their labor needs. Make the idiots follow the law!
 
We need to deport all of the Undocumented Democrats and bring people in legally on a temporary basis as needed.
 
Only a complete moron would suggest that military professionals be made to work in the fields. They are trained to kill terrorists and commies, not pick avacados.   
 
Ray
 
 
 
 

[utopiacowboy]

And where do you think they are all going to go? I assume we're talking about the majority of the middle class who's buried themselves in credit card debt, BMW payments, student loans, HELOCs, and other cool things that have not only fueled the proverbial pissing contest with the Jones but have also greatly contributed to the mess.
 
The poor certainly wouldn't have the means to leave and why on earth would the rich want to? Ask anyone who's financially successful here and they will tell you the US of A is still the greatest country in the world; even with all of the BS they have been spoon feeding us.
 
I wouldn't argue that things could look (and be) very different here in 5 years. But I will say if you want to sit here and point fingers and continue to look for hope from the government instead of going out and doing what you can to seek opportunity, then you pretty much deserve what you get.
 
There was a post in another thread where a member attempted to lay blame on the moderator for not keeping the board clean and free of riff-raff posters here in recent years. I had to laugh as it seems so similar to what's going on here with the financial mess ... seems many want to just relinguish their personal responsibility and hand over their freeedom of choice, power, and decision-making to a higher authority to clean up the mess rather than make an effort to try to do it themselves. That's all fine and good if you'd like I suppose ... just be careful with what you're really asking for. Because if you do get your wish, you're likely to piss off your neighbor and pay more taxes; and that's just selfish.

Of course the vast majority are going to stay in the US even when it's as bad as Zimbawe - they just can't think out of the box. All my kids are dual citizens and they can all speak Spanish - none of them sees a future in the US.

As for cleaning up the mess, the only way I can see cleaning it up is with an AK-47 - voting accomplishes nothing. The idea of getting hope from our government is absurd - the government is the problem. Secession, revolution or a military coup - they are the only hopes left for the US.

[fathertime]

You sound like Bill & Hillary! Why aren't YOU out there picking tomatoes?
 
I'm not sure which "issue" you are talking about, but if it's the problem with farm labor, then there is already a simple solution available.
 
Offer a decent wage to American citizens and LEGAL residents for farm labor. If there still aren't enough workers available, then  there is the existing H2A agricultural visa available to farmers to meet their labor needs. Make the idiots follow the law!
 
We need to deport all of the Undocumented Democrats and bring people in legally on a temporary basis as needed.
 
Only a complete moron would suggest that military professionals be made to work in the fields. They are trained to kill terrorists and commies, not pick avacados.   
 
Ray

Now you see here Bozo Ray!  I know my idea has been 'drawn and quartered' but I want to make it clear, I do pick my own avOcados and today I picked my tomatoes too, cherry tomatoes in fact! I've got extras free of charge for you, just don't pelt me with them.


Now Ray, we are going to have a budget deficit of roughly 1.6 trillion this year.  Do you put the 3 wars on the table in order to reduce the deficit?  If not, do we continue to run up the deficit or do you suggest other cuts that would be close to equaling the 1.6 trillion?
The direct costs of war are bad enough, but what about all those permanently injured men/women that are unable to work again, or require extensive medical procedures.  I'm not suggesting we don't do everything for them because I believe we absolutely should, but why the Christ are we letting these trillion dollar wars ruin our economy.


Fathertime! 

[euforia51]

Of course the vast majority are going to stay in the US even when it's as bad as Zimbawe - they just can't think out of the box. All my kids are dual citizens and they can all speak Spanish - none of them sees a future in the US.

As for cleaning up the mess, the only way I can see cleaning it up is with an AK-47 - voting accomplishes nothing. The idea of getting hope from our government is absurd - the government is the problem. Secession, revolution or a military coup - they are the only hopes left for the US.

I'm guessing Colombia will be your new home at some point in the near future? I have honestly given thought to this myself. Medellin could be a nice place to end up if you do it right. But for the moment in my case, I think it's wise for me to stay here and sock away as much money as I can before I can even think about taking that step.
 
Yeah the idea of the people gaining hope from the government is, in fact, absurd. But you know the people have been doing that very thing. Hell, our own corporations have done it. Remember the automakers flying in on their corporate jets with their hands out? The AIGs, the banks?
 
While things are perceptively bad here right now and our government officials have been an embarrassment to say the least, I'm not convinced we'll end up like Zimbabwe. I think there is still opportunity and good fortune can be had to those who are willing to work a little harder to go get it.

[Researcher]

Of course the vast majority are going to stay in the US even when it's as bad as Zimbawe - they just can't think out of the box. All my kids are dual citizens and they can all speak Spanish - none of them sees a future in the US.

As for cleaning up the mess, the only way I can see cleaning it up is with an AK-47 - voting accomplishes nothing. The idea of getting hope from our government is absurd - the government is the problem. Secession, revolution or a military coup - they are the only hopes left for the US.

       I wouldn't be so anxious to jump the sinking ship just yet.Although Alabamaboy almost convinced me that Colombia is a good option I don't see the US turning ingo Zimbabwe just yet.It would be foolish to go to another country unless you could afford to retire.I had a good feeling about Mexico in the 90's.I like the people there and pretty much everything about it except working there.It was getting more and more stable also but look at it now.

      A country without a middle class is not going to be a stable country.I'm not talking about working poor, I'm talking about a real middle class.Colombia doesn't have much of one and neither does Mexico which isn't going to be much of a stable environment to live.If and when the US declines the rest of the world will decline also.So moving from the US to Colombia could be like moving from Zimbabwe to the Congo.I agree with Euforia I don't think we're done just yet and there are still opportunities out there.

      I don't pay much attention to the myth of the emerging middle class in these countries.I think it is just a redefining of the term to a more realistic level for the global market.Working poor is the new middle class but it might would be better if I did buy into the myth.I could be making plans to move to live in another country thinking everything would be OK.I could go to sleep at night and dream about living happily ever after with that imaginary middle class and Bigfoot.Hey, if you are going to dream, dream big.

        Researcher

[fathertime]

   The banks are bulldozing houses, at least in part in an effort to try to bring housing prices up. What a tremendous waste and misallocation of resources.   Granted, many of these homes probably need some serious repairs, but they are still intact homes that could be very livable.  It seems to me that, we should reallocate the 3 million a day we spend on the Libyan ‘rebels’ to pay for construction repairs.  Then we would have more houses for those that need them at a reasonable price and it would put construction workers to work on something that is reasonably productive.    Instead, bulldozers that use gasoline are dispatched to destroy homes which are then hauled by another truck (more gasoline wasted) to the landfill.  Imagine all those perfectly good materials wasted, mainly because banks want home prices to rise.    I might add that all this very important and productive work, adds to our ‘critically important’ GDP number.  If it is not already obvious, China has already surpassed us as the number 1 economy in the world. 


http://news.yahoo.com/bulldoze-way-foreclose-102000063.html



Fathertime!

[Researcher]

    Hey FT, if we included our biggest export, war and nationbuilding, in that GDP number the US would surely be the #1 economy!

      Researcher

[Alabamaboy!]

I remember seeing Osama Bin Laden years ago bragging about how he "bled" the Soviet government dry and indirectly caused the country to crumble. And he promised to do the same to the US. So far, looks like things are going exactly as he had planned.

And those guys don't think about 5-10 year windows of time. They are talking about 50 years. I hate to imagine how this country will look in 50 years!

[euforia51]

   The banks are bulldozing houses, at least in part in an effort to try to bring housing prices up. What a tremendous waste and misallocation of resources.
...

http://news.yahoo.com/bulldoze-way-foreclose-102000063.html

I read this article earlier also and was a bit dumbfounded; until I realized that I didn't see where they mentioned the values or ages of these homes or in what kind of neighborhoods where these homes were located. It kind of paints an incomplete picture of what's really going on. It did mention the city, however ... Cleveland? A model of prosperity to behold in tough times? If we're talking about homes in established crack neighborhoods where meth is pouring out in the streets then maybe this isn't as bad as it sounds. Who's to say?

[utopiacowboy]

       I wouldn't be so anxious to jump the sinking ship just yet.Although Alabamaboy almost convinced me that Colombia is a good option I don't see the US turning ingo Zimbabwe just yet.It would be foolish to go to another country unless you could afford to retire.I had a good feeling about Mexico in the 90's.I like the people there and pretty much everything about it except working there.It was getting more and more stable also but look at it now.

      A country without a middle class is not going to be a stable country.I'm not talking about working poor, I'm talking about a real middle class.Colombia doesn't have much of one and neither does Mexico which isn't going to be much of a stable environment to live.If and when the US declines the rest of the world will decline also.So moving from the US to Colombia could be like moving from Zimbabwe to the Congo.I agree with Euforia I don't think we're done just yet and there are still opportunities out there.

      I don't pay much attention to the myth of the emerging middle class in these countries.I think it is just a redefining of the term to a more realistic level for the global market.Working poor is the new middle class but it might would be better if I did buy into the myth.I could be making plans to move to live in another country thinking everything would be OK.I could go to sleep at night and dream about living happily ever after with that imaginary middle class and Bigfoot.Hey, if you are going to dream, dream big.

        Researcher

In my case, I plan on spending half of each year on a ranch in Saskatchewan, Canada and half of each year on the beach in Uruguay. Both of these countries have infinitely better prospects than the US. Not to mention I'll never have to worry about health care as a Canadian citizen. Their middle classes are not imaginary and both of them have a quality of life far superior to that found in the US today not to mention whatever decrepit state the US will be in 5, 10 or 20 years from now. The USSR fell and the world was a better place - the USSA is falling and the world will be a better place.

[euforia51]

Not to mention I'll never have to worry about health care as a Canadian citizen.

This statement made me curious as to how much a Canadian citizen who never has to worry about health care has to pay in federal and provincial taxes ... have a look... whitey could probably shed some light on this also.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

[Ray]

I remember seeing Osama Bin Laden years ago bragging about how he "bled" the Soviet government dry and indirectly caused the country to crumble. And he promised to do the same to the US. So far, looks like things are going exactly as he had planned.

Huh? Exactly as he had planned?
 
Did Osama plan on having the top of his head blown off and his brains splattered all over the wall by a Navy SEAL? Did he plan on having his stinking corpse dumped into the sea and fed to the sharks by the US Navy?
 
Personally, I think Osama was a dumbass and grossly underestimated our will to follow through until we killed every one of his stinking kind.
 
Furthermore, Osama was a dumbass for thinking that the Pakistani Government could protect him from the Americans.
　
Osama was a dumbass for staying in one place for such a long time. If he wanted to live, he should have stayed in his cave with the bats.
　
Osama was a dumbass for leaving all of that evidence in his house for us to pick up and take with us. What was that moron thinking anyway?
　
Bring on the next dumbass…

 
 
　Ray
 
 
 
 

[utopiacowboy]

This statement made me curious as to how much a Canadian citizen who never has to worry about health care has to pay in federal and provincial taxes ... have a look... whitey could probably shed some light on this also.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

There is no free lunch all right and that's true with national health care as well. Canadians do pay more in taxes than Americans do. However Canadians spend less per capita on health care than the US - spending for health care in Canada was US$3,678; in the U.S., US$6,714. Even Sarah Palin had to recently admit that she used to use Canada's health care system - her only comment was "Ironic isn't it?". I'll be retired so I'm not that worried about taxes - in fact I may qualify for Canada's old age pension.

[euforia51]

   The banks are bulldozing houses, at least in part in an effort to try to bring housing prices up. What a tremendous waste and misallocation of resources.   Granted, many of these homes probably need some serious repairs, but they are still intact homes that could be very livable.  It seems to me that, we should reallocate the 3 million a day we spend on the Libyan ‘rebels’ to pay for construction repairs.  Then we would have more houses for those that need them at a reasonable price and it would put construction workers to work on something that is reasonably productive.
...
If it is not already obvious, China has already surpassed us as the number 1 economy in the world.

Just a couple of thoughts ... who's going to pay for these construction workers and craftsmen to repair these houses? Surely, you're not insisting that the government step in and finance (aka you and me) such an operation?
Then who's going to buy them once the restoration work has been completed?
Investors ... ok. Now, who's going to rent them?

China ... there is an easy solution to this if we collectively wanted to slow down Chinese economy. Quit buying the latest and greatest smartphones, iPads, iPods, laptops, flatscreens, childrens toys, and the myriad of other crap that people don't need. Try holding on to the stuff you do have for more than a year; hold on to it for 2 years, 3 years... If you insist you must have this stuff, try buying used on e-Bay or Craigslist. Someone may really need the money for it. And perhaps most important ... quit going into debt to buy all of this crap in the first place.

[utopiacowboy]

Just a couple of thoughts ... who's going to pay for these construction workers and craftsmen to repair these houses? Surely, you're not insisting that the government step in and finance (aka you and me) such an operation?
Then who's going to buy them once the restoration work has been completed?
Investors ... ok. Now, who's going to rent them?

China ... there is an easy solution to this if we collectively wanted to slow down Chinese economy. Quit buying the latest and greatest smartphones, iPads, iPods, laptops, flatscreens, childrens toys, and the myriad of other crap that people don't need. Try holding on to the stuff you do have for more than a year; hold on to it for 2 years, 3 years... If you insist you must have this stuff, try buying used on e-Bay or Craigslist. Someone may really need the money for it. And perhaps most important ... quit going into debt to buy all of this crap in the first place.

Not a chance. All that electronic crap esp the iPads, iPhones etc are more popular than ever. I've often thought we should embargo all Chinese goods, repudiate any US debt instruments in their hands and send their country into economic chaos (not to mention the traitorous Wal-mart - whose executives should be executed for treason).

[euforia51]

Not a chance. All that electronic crap esp the iPads, iPhones etc are more popular than ever.

Which is exactly why you don't need it. Makes you wonder how you lived without these things, doesn't it? I can't answer this question because I use a dated 2-3 year old Trac-Fone (with no contract or monthly bill) and my one Apple product is an iPod that is about 7 years old. The man said he wanted to slow down the Chinese economy ... collectively ... that's the best way to do it. Quit feeding the elephant!
 
I should be fair here and also point out that probably 98% of my consumer electronics are made in China; simply because if you want to watch tv, use a computer, watch a DVD, you pretty much don't have a choice. But if you're constantly running out to get the latest and greatest stuff and the Chinese economy is bothering you ... then stop!

[no comment]

Try holding on to the stuff you do have for more than a year; hold on to it for 2 years, 3 years... If you insist you must have this stuff, try buying used on e-Bay or Craigslist. Someone may really need the money for it. And perhaps most important ... quit going into debt to buy all of this crap in the first place.

I've got over 110k on the pickup and about 7 years on the Mac computer.  I've used Ebay but have become less of a fan.  They take a healthy piece of the action with their fees plus the Paypal fees off the seller and the buyer.  The shipping companies certainly win.  It has been said that there's a lot of stolen merchandise on Ebay and I don't doubt that. 

[fathertime]

Just a couple of thoughts ... who's going to pay for these construction workers and craftsmen to repair these houses? Surely, you're not insisting that the government step in and finance (aka you and me) such an operation?
Then who's going to buy them once the restoration work has been completed?
Investors ... ok. Now, who's going to rent them?

 

Yes Euf. You got me on that one but if the govt. is going to waste money on something I’d like to see them save resources and waste the money on structurally sound houses.…practically anything is a more productive use of funds than tossing our money to the Libyan ‘rebels’. In addition, we had a stupid 787billion in ‘stimulus’ jammed down our gullets.  Now the govt. claims they can’t find ‘shovel ready’ projects.  What it comes down to is that I hate to see potentially good houses just bulldozed as a perverted way to prop up the housing market.  In many cases it is good materials and craftsmanship that is just thrown in the landfill.   


Now the reality of it is I wasn’t being fair about how I represented this article and I’m glad you were astute enough to point that out.  These houses might be in a drug infested craphole, or they might be in a hollowed out city without jobs, or they might be beyond repair.  I’ve been reading quite a bit about the real estate industry over the past few years talking about bulldozing houses to tighten the supply so they can make new buyers grab their ankles with claims of a tight housing supply. 




Fathertime!

[euforia51]

I've got over 110k on the pickup and about 7 years on the Mac computer.  I've used Ebay but have become less of a fan.  They take a healthy piece of the action with their fees plus the Paypal fees off the seller and the buyer.  The shipping companies certainly win.  It has been said that there's a lot of stolen merchandise on Ebay and I don't doubt that.

E-bay is good shopping if you're patient, know what you're looking for, and know in advance what you're willing to pay. Otherwise, you might as well go pay retail. And like any big company who is in demand and successful, you're going to pay their fees and like it. That's just the nature of the beast.
 
The preferred shipper of choice more often than not seems to be the post office. And I would dare say e-Bay is doing its fair share to help keep the post office afloat.
 
There's little doubt that a percentage of the stuff on there is stolen. And that should be obvious if you're getting something brand new for 1/2 the cost of what you could get it for from a brick and mortar store. Buyer beware.

[Researcher]

        I agree that consumption is still alot of the problem.Even though consumer spending was down the first part of this year people are still buying the latest gadgets.I think we need massive deflation.With companies making record profits by producing things overseas and not hiring anyone here that signals prices are too high.But as long as people keep spending beyong thier means prices will remain the same.


  Researcher

[Researcher]

In my case, I plan on spending half of each year on a ranch in Saskatchewan, Canada and half of each year on the beach in Uruguay. Both of these countries have infinitely better prospects than the US. Not to mention I'll never have to worry about health care as a Canadian citizen. Their middle classes are not imaginary and both of them have a quality of life far superior to that found in the US today not to mention whatever decrepit state the US will be in 5, 10 or 20 years from now. The USSR fell and the world was a better place - the USSA is falling and the world will be a better place.

         That sounds like a good plan as long as you won't be relying on Social Security from the US.I've planned my retirement as not to include any SS because I don't think it will be around much longer.

         I think the US and the world would be better off if our govt. would keep it's nose out of other countries business.