Riots in the streets 2008-2013 style.

[Jeff S]

Or as Reagan put it... "The government is the problem, not the solution."

[Researcher]

Or as Reagan put it... "The government is the problem, not the solution."

    ....and yet China is booming.Maybe we should change to Communists.

       Researcher

[fathertime]

Wow this rhetoric is incredible.  Here is what Pelosi said today.


“What we’re trying to do is save the world from the Republican budget . . . We’re trying to save life on this planet as we know it today.”

“If we don’t get our budget problems under control with record deficits and debts, and we don’t begin to deal with these underlying issues, we will become more like Greece.”




I just heard on the news that many members of congress all went and prayed together in the Congress chapel. 


Well I gotta say Pelosi might be right for once…if this doesn’t get settled a lot of people are not going to be getting their monthly checks…and this will quickly cascade through our economy and disrupt everything in it’s path.


I would think this would be settled by this weekend if not before, In the off chance it is not and I don’t see anything settled by  Sunday night, then I would make preparations, before there are runs on stores, banks, etc. 


Fathertime!

[Colgando]

Yeah man, it would be irrational pandemonium if they do not strike a deal, stock market correction best case, slip back into recession worst case and all the accompanying side effects. Job losses accelerate, bad, bad, bad......the only bright spot would be the govt would finally stop spending money it does not have in an imprudent fashion. We still will have deficit spending for the foreseeable future, but we gotta make progress on reducing spending. Taxes gotta go up eventually, we owe entirely too much money, we need balance.

[fathertime]

Yeah man, it would be irrational pandemonium if they do not strike a deal, stock market correction best case, slip back into recession worst case and all the accompanying side effects. Job losses accelerate, bad, bad, bad......the only bright spot would be the govt would finally stop spending money it does not have in an imprudent fashion. We still will have deficit spending for the foreseeable future, but we gotta make progress on reducing spending. Taxes gotta go up eventually, we owe entirely too much money, we need balance.

Hey Colgado,


From what I've been reading, if nothing changes we are slated to ADD 9.5 Trillion to the debt over 10 years.  The amazing thing is that these utter jackasses are arguing about only cutting perhaps 1 Trillion or 2 Trillon from that amount.  So at the end of 10 years, we will be indebted 24 Trillion instead of 25.5 Trillion. 
These aren't real amounts they are talking about here.  They should be talking about 1 or 2 year budgets that are cutting 1 trillion or so, not 10 years out, because that is all pie in the sky crapola.  One of the first things we can do is start bringing the troops home for real.  We gotta figure out a better way to wage war where we don't bankrupt ourselves.


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

I just read that GDP for the 2nd quarter 2011 rose 1.7% a terrible number.  To make matters worse, the number is complete crap and misleading.  Our GDP includes stupid items like Medical expenses, so if I were to get sick and run up a hospital bill of 400,000 that would be included in our nation’s GDP.  How the hell is something so negative as a man getting ill, benefit our ‘GDP’ so much?  Our nation is sicker/fatter/older than ever, and if we are going to measure GDP in a manner that counts medical expenses in such a positive manner than we are just fooling ourselves.  Our REAL economy is still contracting, even if the govt. numbers reflect something different.  In 2010, medical spending was 2.6 trillion out of our 14 trillion dollar economy, which means it is approaching 20% of our GDP.  The USA is the master of turning a negative number into something positive, I'm wondering when the rest of world will figure it all out.


Fathertime!

[Researcher]

     If the US defaults we are just going to get where we are going faster that's all.Our government is unwilling to do what it needs to do to at least put us in a good position for the new global economy.They would rather prop everything up and pass it on to the next in line instead of making the difficult, unpopular and right choices that need to be made.

[Jeff S]

I get your point F/T, but delivering medical treatments to someone employs people who create goods and value added services, so in truth, it is considered as a domestic product of the economy - no different that hiring a mechanic to repair your car (from an economic point of view.) What should not be considered part of GDP is the millions of government bureaucrats auditing taxes, reviewing K1 applications, feeling up travelers, checking to see if people have fishing licenses, enforcing mandatory gay curriculum in 2nd grade school textbooks, issuing checks to farmers if the grow corn for ethanol, on and on and on. They only take from the economy - they don't contribute to it - no value added. How big can the parasite become before it kills the host? That's what I wonder when I hear Obama giving speeches on why the government needs more taxes - simply cloaked pleas from the parasite for more food from the host.

[fathertime]

I get your point F/T, but delivering medical treatments to someone employs people who create goods and value added services, so in truth, it is considered as a domestic product of the economy - no different that hiring a mechanic to repair your car (from an economic point of view.) What should not be considered part of GDP is the millions of government bureaucrats auditing taxes, reviewing K1 applications, feeling up travelers, checking to see if people have fishing licenses, enforcing mandatory gay curriculum in 2nd grade school textbooks, issuing checks to farmers if the grow corn for ethanol, on and on and on. They only take from the economy - they don't contribute to it - no value added. How big can the parasite become before it kills the host? That's what I wonder when I hear Obama giving speeches on why the government needs more taxes - simply cloaked pleas from the parasite for more food from the host.

I hear ya Jeff and agree with all those examples you gave. I'm losing you on how delivering medical treatments to our own citizens something that creates something of value to the world?  To me it is just the same as selling pizzas to each other in that it doesn't create wealth, it is a drag on the economy, not something to be proud of.  Medical treatments constitute roughly 20% of our GDP, which in my mind makes the GDP not a number that is very important in its current form.   
Now if we are treating people from other countries in large amounts that would be bringing in new money and that would be helpful for our economy.   


Fathertime! 

[Jeff S]

Well, there are only a few ways to create wealth - you can grow it (agriculture,) dig it out of the ground (mining, oil production,) or manufacture it. The service industries don't create wealth. So part of the medical world (drug and medical device manufacturing) is wealth creating, and the other part (services) is wealth neutral. Nonetheless there is value to services (you're willing to pay for them aren't you?) so they do contribute in part to GDP. After the gumment skims their piece off the top, the services part of the economy doesn't look so good.


The biggest mistake the US is making is chasing the wealth producing sectors out of the country (manufacturing, oil drilling, mining, even some agriculture) by excessive regulation and overcompensation for environmental sins of the past. They hope to lead us into a services based economy. This is rediculous since you can't have an economy where we cut each other's lawns, sell each other insurance, or give each other haircutss - wealth creation MUST be in the picture or we're sunk.

[fathertime]

Well, there are only a few ways to create wealth - you can grow it (agriculture,) dig it out of the ground (mining, oil production,) or manufacture it. The service industries don't create wealth. So part of the medical world (drug and medical device manufacturing) is wealth creating, and the other part (services) is wealth neutral. Nonetheless there is value to services (you're willing to pay for them aren't you?) so they do contribute in part to GDP. After the gumment skims their piece off the top, the services part of the economy doesn't look so good.


The biggest mistake the US is making is chasing the wealth producing sectors out of the country (manufacturing, oil drilling, mining, even some agriculture) by excessive regulation and overcompensation for environmental sins of the past. They hope to lead us into a services based economy. This is rediculous since you can't have an economy where we cut each other's lawns, sell each other insurance, or give each other haircutss - wealth creation MUST be in the picture or we're sunk.

I agree with your post Jeff. 


I looked at it this way. 

We have two exact same economies economy A and economy B.  The only difference is in economy A  my uncle jess has a heart attack and it costs 300k to make him well.  Now economy A has a larger GDP, but their economy if anything is worse off.  That is why I think adding medical expenses to the GDP is a false way to inflate the GDP, it helps to render the number worthless.


Fathertime! 

[Researcher]

Well, there are only a few ways to create wealth - you can grow it (agriculture,) dig it out of the ground (mining, oil production,) or manufacture it. The service industries don't create wealth. So part of the medical world (drug and medical device manufacturing) is wealth creating, and the other part (services) is wealth neutral. Nonetheless there is value to services (you're willing to pay for them aren't you?) so they do contribute in part to GDP. After the gumment skims their piece off the top, the services part of the economy doesn't look so good.


The biggest mistake the US is making is chasing the wealth producing sectors out of the country (manufacturing, oil drilling, mining, even some agriculture) by excessive regulation and overcompensation for environmental sins of the past. They hope to lead us into a services based economy. This is rediculous since you can't have an economy where we cut each other's lawns, sell each other insurance, or give each other haircutss - wealth creation MUST be in the picture or we're sunk.

      I agree with most of what you wrote here Jeff S., very well put.I think the government does need to scale back on the regulations.I have seen the burden of the companies I have worked for have to bear because of the regulations.But I think companies would still leave the US for cheaper wages and countries that don't give a darn about it's environment or it's people.There is no way the US can compete.The global economy is moving along and won't be stopped.I just think there will be some harsh lessons learned along the way and it's not going to be the "rose garden" that many people thinks it will be.

      Researcher

[Colgando]

      I agree with most of what you wrote here Jeff S., very well put.I think the government does need to scale back on the regulations.I have seen the burden of the companies I have worked for have to bear because of the regulations.But I think companies would still leave the US for cheaper wages and countries that don't give a darn about it's environment or it's people.There is no way the US can compete.The global economy is moving along and won't be stopped.I just think there will be some harsh lessons learned along the way and it's not going to be the "rose garden" that many people thinks it will be.

      Researcher

Estoy de acuerdo con ustedes Rese and Jeff S. When are we going to wake up as country, it is amazing to me that we are not having this conversation in the public square, our politicians are failing us. Maybe they can solve for the deficit and debt train wreck, but then we gotta move on to this conversation.


I wonder if the US had a parliamentary government system, if it would be easier to govern and get things done? It seems to me that the parliamentary system forces compromise, coalition building from the beginning of the govt term and throughout. I particular like how a vote of no confidence in the govt can be called at anytime.

[Jeff S]

Yes - smaller companies who are trying everything to short-cut the system and think they can get away with something will still move out.


But why would Ford build their latest, most advanced, fully automated factory in rural Brazil and not in rural Oklahoma were it not for regulations and unions. Yes they are shipping cars back to the US there.


GM's Celeya Guanajuato plant building all the pickups, suburbans and other full sized SUVs was put there not for cheap labor, and not so they could dump hazardous waste in the river - it was put there in the 90s because in order to supply Americans what they were interested in - full sized utility vehicles - they had to build them outside the US to comply with the US Governments CAFE fleet average fuel economy regulations. IT was all unintended consequences. Congress' bill forced GM out of the country.


Think Obama's suspending all oil exploration in the Gulf, then praising Brazil for the new find and telling them that we will become out best customer is all about evil corporate interests being more interested in making a little extra money than employing Americans? How about ANWR. Think it's environmental concerns or politics? http://blog.heritage.org/2008/06/29/the-truth-about-anwr/

[Jeff S]

Estoy de acuerdo con ustedes Rese and Jeff S. When are we going to wake up as country, it is amazing to me that we are not having this conversation in the public square, our politicians are failing us. Maybe they can solve for the deficit and debt train wreck, but then we gotta move on to this conversation.

I wonder if the US had a parliamentary government system, if it would be easier to govern and get things done? It seems to me that the parliamentary system forces compromise, coalition building from the beginning of the govt term and throughout. I particular like how a vote of no confidence in the govt can be called at anytime.

Charles Krauthammer nailed it in his latest oped IMO:

We’re in the midst of a great four-year national debate on the size and reach of government, the future of the welfare state, indeed, the nature of the social contract between citizen and state. The distinctive visions of the two parties — social-democratic vs. limited-government — have underlain every debate on every issue since Barack Obama’s inauguration: the stimulus, the auto bailouts, health-care reform, financial regulation, deficit spending. Everything. The debt ceiling is but the latest focus of this fundamental divide.


The sausage-making may be unsightly, but the problem is not that Washington is broken, that ridiculous ubiquitous cliche. The problem is that these two visions are in competition, and the definitive popular verdict has not yet been rendered.

Here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-great-divide/2011/07/28/gIQAeOtifI_story.html

[Researcher]

Yes - smaller companies who are trying everything to short-cut the system and think they can get away with something will still move out.


But why would Ford build their latest, most advanced, fully automated factory in rural Brazil and not in rural Oklahoma were it not for regulations and unions. Yes they are shipping cars back to the US there.


GM's Celeya Guanajuato plant building all the pickups, suburbans and other full sized SUVs was put there not for cheap labor, and not so they could dump hazardous waste in the river - it was put there in the 90s because in order to supply Americans what they were interested in - full sized utility vehicles - they had to build them outside the US to comply with the US Governments CAFE fleet average fuel economy regulations. IT was all unintended consequences. Congress' bill forced GM out of the country.


Think Obama's suspending all oil exploration in the Gulf, then praising Brazil for the new find and telling them that we will become out best customer is all about evil corporate interests being more interested in making a little extra money than employing Americans? How about ANWR. Think it's environmental concerns or politics? http://blog.heritage.org/2008/06/29/the-truth-about-anwr/

      I do think companies leaving the US has something to do with being over regulated but it is mostly for cheap labor and countries that allow destruction of the environment and not caring what happens to its people.Business don't care what happens to the environment and I don't think it should be their job to. They should be setup and focused on profit but should be regulated to some degree...within reason.I do think the US government has its hands on too many things that it shouldn't but many foreign countries are the extreme opposite.I have seen it with my own eyes.

    Why is GE moving it's X-Ray plant to China? I don't know I was just wondering if anyone else does.

        Researcher

[Researcher]

Charles Krauthammer nailed it in his latest oped IMO:


Here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-great-divide/2011/07/28/gIQAeOtifI_story.html

     Believe me when I say I absolutely hate to say this because I think Obama is mucking things up.But George Bush is just as guilty.I think Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke and Henry Paulson have just as much responsibility in our current situation as well.Alan Greenspan's mantra was "the markets will regulate themselves" for a long time.I will never forget when I heard him say "I was wrong". That changed my mind about the free market, it does need some regulation.Our current meltdown has caused a lack of confidence in the free markets and Obama sees it as an opportunity to push a socialist agenda.

    So is Obama screwing things up? Yes. But only because the lack of foresight of those that came before him does he have this opportunity.

       Researcher 

[Jeff S]

Yeah - It's that darn previous Republican administration that didn't regulate the financial markets well enough..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&feature=related

[Researcher]

   Truth be known it probably started with Reagan but Bill Clinton kicked it into high gear:

                    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/



      Researcher

[Researcher]

........Then Bush continued the insanity until it spiraled out of control and crashed.After which Alan Greenspan uttered the immortal words "I was wrong":

          http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meltdown/view/


            Researcher

[Researcher]

.....Now Obama is using this time as an opportunity to push his socialist agenda:

           http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tentrillion/


         Researcher

[no comment]

After the debt ceiling business is out of the way it will be interesting to hear what the administration has in mind for economy.   After QE1, QE2, cash for clunkers what else is there... no doubt some economists in the Keynes cult will want QE3.  Interest rates can't go lower, we can't keep borrowing and spending.... there's opposition to nuclear energy, coal fired plants, drilling for oil, hydro fracturing and a desire to increase the cost of business with a carbon tax.  Businesses already don't want to hire because of the health care plan.  What will the president be running on?

[fathertime]

I just found an article written 2 days ago.  It has been buried and nobody in the media seems to give a fook, but I thought I’d throw it out there anyway.   The govt, has just reevaluated the GDP from 2007 2008 and 2009.  They were bullspitting us for all those years, they revised the GDP number downwards quite drastically for all those years.  They were telling the public how we ‘are growing’ when in fact they damn well knew we were falling deeper into recession. 
They overestimated growth on purpose because they know damn well that they can get away with it.  Now even the revised numbers are bullspit, but they are closer to the actual case at least.  Here is the  link and you can see the numbers for yourself.   Our govt. was/is bs’ing us.  There is NO WAY to EVER pay off this debt, even at 14.5 trillion, let alone at the 24 trillion they are shooting to get it at in 10 years.  It will never be paid off, it will either be defaulted on or inflated away.  All you people that have been saving your dollars, get out the lube and start feeling for the ankles. 


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/great-recession-even-deeper-than-thought-2011-07-29?siteid=rss&rss=1




Fathertime!

[no comment]

There is NO WAY to EVER pay off this debt, even at 14.5 trillion, let alone at the 24 trillion they are shooting to get it at in 10 years.  It will never be paid off, it will either be defaulted on or inflated away.  All you people that have been saving your dollars, get out the lube and start feeling for the ankles. 

What is your solution?  Have you converted some of your savings to another currency, or maybe some commodity?

But why would Ford build their latest, most advanced, fully automated factory in rural Brazil and not in rural Oklahoma were it not for regulations and unions. Yes they are shipping cars back to the US there.

Ford is investing $1B in a plant in Gujarat, India.  They see room for growth there, and regard the US as a 'mature market' with little room for growth.

[fathertime]

What is your solution?  Have you converted some of your savings to another currency, or maybe some commodity

Hey NC,  I'm screwed like most everybody else here.  My feeling is that hard assets such as owning a home does make sense at some point though.  They will inflate with the currency. 
Another solution I have no control over is if the USA were to bring all the troops home, I'm not sure of the exact savings but it must be 100's of billions per year.  What do you think?


Fathertime!