Riots in the streets 2008-2013 style.

[robert angel]

Researcher's quote:

>>  Right you are piglet! This year the interest on our national debt will be 200 billion dollars. Over the next 10 years it will be over 900 billion dollars a year which rivals any large spending program we have. I'd say our huge debt is our biggest problem now and congress is debating whether or not to cut 60 or 20 billion out of the budget.That's chump change by comparison but I guess it's a start.


So, stick a fork in us, we are done<<

MY two bits:

And let's not forget that China ALONE holds 1.2 TRILLION dollars in redeemable US Treasury bonds. While they have a vested interest in the US economy not tanking, in otherwords, that our economies are presently 'co-dependent' to an extent, if a very unfortunate series of events occured, we could be in far worse shape than we already are.

[fathertime]

I must say robertA you become rankled and grumble about the silliest things…I provide a relevant reference (that backs up a statistic) you moan that JeffS makes points without references.  Once again I’ve provided a stat on pension plans, and you have failed to provide anything other than hearsay.  You mentioned that you did not buy fully into JeffS’s logic, but failed to say why, I don’t think it is believable that you don’t fully buy into his logic and I was providing you a somewhat graceful ‘out’ by seeing if you wanted to retract/change your opinion.  Nobody asked for an apology or said what you wrote was offensive, so why pretend and distract with such silliness?  Since a retraction/change in position is not in the cards for you, where don’t you agree with JeffS’s statements/logic? I thought I was being fair and not overbearing with you (because I know you are sensitive) and genuinely wanted to see what you were going to provide regarding other teacher pension plans around the country.  I was open to hearing about a particular state that possibly had a sustainable/reasonable teacher pension plan, but you failed to provide that information and instead are choosing to complain about overbearing posters that do have an opinion and have provided stats/relevant info. 
Nobody was being intolerant of your view and I’m actually sorry that you find my manner of debating/arguing offensive, but you haven’t provided anything other than hearsay to back it up, so I don’t see why it should be taken seriously.

Fathertime!

[Researcher]

Researcher's quote:

>>  Right you are piglet! This year the interest on our national debt will be 200 billion dollars. Over the next 10 years it will be over 900 billion dollars a year which rivals any large spending program we have. I'd say our huge debt is our biggest problem now and congress is debating whether or not to cut 60 or 20 billion out of the budget.That's chump change by comparison but I guess it's a start.


So, stick a fork in us, we are done<<

MY two bits:

And let's not forget that China ALONE holds 1.2 TRILLION dollars in redeemable US Treasury bonds. While they have a vested interest in the US economy not tanking, in otherwords, that our economies are presently 'co-dependent' to an extent, if a very unfortunate series of events occured, we could be in far worse shape than we already are.

      Exactly Robert. So if this debt isn't taken care of we will be paying over 900 billion dollars a year in interest to other countries. It will only be a large transfer of wealth from the US. The citizens of this country will receive nothing in return. To me that is far more important to resolve than what teachers get paid. Everyone needs to understand that this problem needs to be taken care of pronto. Our government needs to be held accountable for seeing that it gets done.


      Researcher

[El flaco]

      Exactly Robert. So if this debt isn't taken care of we will be paying over 900 billion dollars a year in interest to other countries. It will only be a large transfer of wealth from the US. The citizens of this country will receive nothing in return. To me that is far more important to resolve than what teachers get paid. Everyone needs to understand that this problem needs to be taken care of pronto. Our government needs to be held accountable for seeing that it gets done.


      Researcher

We are definitely in big trouble.  Stenny Hoyer said today the budget will not be balanced for 15-20 yrs.  That is outrageous!  If we don't get more new blood in Congress we will have 20 trillion in debt in less than 5 years and who knows how much in 10, 15 and 20 years down the road.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/hoyer-says-federal-budget-may-not-be-bal

[Ray]

The teachers are trying to make sure that we 'grow our way out of this mess.   Follow my logic and let me know what you all think. 

The teachers unions realize that their bloated retirement system is in a death spiral.  They know they need more new teachers paying into the system in order to keep paying out these benefits.  The problem is that Americans are having fewer children, enter ILLEGAL ALIENS and their 8.8 children per family.  It is no coincedence that the teachers unions and lobbyists are some of the biggest supporters for illegal aliens.  It is no coincedence that school districts refuse to check immigration status of students.  The public school system retirement plans would collapse faster than a house of cards in a hurricane if all the illegal alien kids were yanked from public schooling.  We wouldn't need nearly as many teachers and the general public would save billions.  The teachers would rather support illegal activity and continue to support the degration of our social systems and society at large, in order to continue to prop up the corpse of their bloated benefit program.

Fathertime!

Correct FT!

And how many times do we have to vote in California to cut off the freebies for illegals only to have another dumb-ass liberal judge throw the whole thing out just because he doesn’t like the way we voted?

On one hand the teachers are incessantly whining about large class sizes and the lack of funding while on the other they do everything they can to protect the growing number of illegals in the schools.

Down here near the border, we have another problem that is exasperated by the teachers union. Many legal/citizen Chicano families down here choose to reside in Tijuana where they don’t have to pay California property tax, vehicle registration fees, vehicle smog check costs, high sales taxes, etc. etc…

That is fine with me, HOWEVER, they also want their kids to attend FREE public schools here in San Diego, so their kids commute across the border to nearby public schools. They even have shuttle busses from the border to nearby schools.

They lie about their residence so they won’t have to pay the tuition required of non-district residents. All they need to show “proof” of residence is a phony rent receipt which anyone can make up in 2 minutes. The schools accept this and refuse to verify residence because the teachers are against doing so.

So the leeches don’t contribute to the costs of the schools, but get a free education for their kids.

Just one more way we are being ripped off…

Ray

[fathertime]

Correct FT!

And how many times do we have to vote in California to cut off the freebies for illegals only to have another dumb-ass liberal judge throw the whole thing out just because he doesn’t like the way we voted?

On one hand the teachers are incessantly whining about large class sizes and the lack of funding while on the other they do everything they can to protect the growing number of illegals in the schools.

Down here near the border, we have another problem that is exasperated by the teachers union. Many legal/citizen Chicano families down here choose to reside in Tijuana where they don’t have to pay California property tax, vehicle registration fees, vehicle smog check costs, high sales taxes, etc. etc…

That is fine with me, HOWEVER, they also want their kids to attend FREE public schools here in San Diego, so their kids commute across the border to nearby public schools. They even have shuttle busses from the border to nearby schools.

They lie about their residence so they won’t have to pay the tuition required of non-district residents. All they need to show “proof” of residence is a phony rent receipt which anyone can make up in 2 minutes. The schools accept this and refuse to verify residence because the teachers are against doing so.

So the leeches don’t contribute to the costs of the schools, but get a free education for their kids.

Just one more way we are being ripped off…

Ray

WOW!  That is just another incredible way our society is being ripped off through the educational system.  So the children LIVING IN MEXICO are being provided shuttles to attend our schools all on our nickel.  That is just great.  The School Unions encourage this sort of behavior and it is obvious that they intentionally turn the other cheek.  It would appear that 'whatever it takes' to keep the union membership/Ponzi scheme going, is what their concern is. I wonder how many of those children living in Mexico require special language assistance and other accommodations in order to 'learn'.  That is also VERY costly and all tax payers are funding this nonsense.  When the Teachers unions finally collapse there will be no incentive for schools to continue 'growing' and taking anybody that can prove their residence with a forged 'rent' stub.
Thanks for the informative report Ray!

Fathertime! 

[Bob_S]

And how many times do we have to vote in California to cut off the freebies for illegals only to have another dumb-ass liberal judge throw the whole thing out just because he doesn’t like the way we voted?

Or we get some far leftie puke governor or state attorney general that doesn't like the way we voted and decides to simply not enforce the law the people voted in.   

[euforia51]

Not to interrupt this teacher debate again, but there is an interesting article and video commentary here that further paints a not-so-rosey picture of what can and will happen if both sides of our government don't quit running their damn mouths and start doing what they were elected to do ... take action!

[Tanuki]

Let focus on the true issue that is running this country in the ground. Wall street and corporate greed are selling us whole sale.  You folks want to pick the pepper out of fly shyt by taking all fustrations on the unions.  We would have never had needed unions if it wasn't for corporate greed.

Tell me why execs need to make 250-500% more than the average worker?  Risk? No, there is no risks to them.  Bad execs don't get held accountable, they get golden parachutes and indemnity agreements.

The GOP is playing a shell game and has every body fooled that the unions are the root of all evil.

Wisconsen got its tit in the wringer for all the corporate tax breaks they gave.

[fathertime]

Let focus on the true issue that is running this country in the ground. Wall street and corporate greed are selling us whole sale.  You folks want to pick the pepper out of fly shyt by taking all fustrations on the unions.  We would have never had needed unions if it wasn't for corporate greed.

Tell me why execs need to make 250-500% more than the average worker?  Risk? No, there is no risks to them.  Bad execs don't get held accountable, they get golden parachutes and indemnity agreements.

The GOP is playing a shell game and has every body fooled that the unions are the root of all evil.

Wisconsen got its tit in the wringer for all the corporate tax breaks they gave.

hehe tanuki!  I'm guessing you are from the northeast...that is the only place i've ever heard people use one of my all time favorite expressions 'tit caught in a wringer'....so where are you from?

regarding your points...so long as private companies are competing against each other, then they can pay their execs. whatever they feel they need to pay them.  I think that is how our capitalistic system works.  I  do recognize that many of these private companies also only care about themselves.  What do you think should be done with execs pay? 

Fathertime!

[Jeff S]

Hmmm. I've always thought corporate greed was an asset not a liability.

http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/culture/69-the-virtue-of-greed.html

[Woody]

Tell me why execs need to make 250-500% more than the average worker?  Risk? No, there is no risks to them.  Bad execs don't get held accountable, they get golden parachutes and indemnity agreements.

The GOP is playing a shell game and has every body fooled that the unions are the root of all evil.

Wisconsen got its tit in the wringer for all the corporate tax breaks they gave.

1. I have no problem with Execs making megabux, as long as they are performing. That is why I would love to see the execs pay tied directly to the LONG TERM health of the company that they run. Part of it is our own fault, as shareholders we demand stellar numbers quarter over quarter, unsustainable growth. Executive pay should have a sizeable portion ties into long term(5+ year maturity) stock options. Give the executives incentives to create a HEALTHY company and not want the person they hand the company over to be an idiot either.

We also need checks on corporate greed, specifically as it relates to politicians. There is too much greasing of palms going on in government these days.




2. Unions are not always bad, but they have a place. Their place is in the private sector, not the public sector. That said, all unions have serious flaws, especially in regards to how they hurt the productivity of a business.

My father HATED the unions when he was an engineer in Michigan. He couldn't test a part quickly. If he needed a defect corrected in it he had to hand it to a union worker, that worker would then carry it over to the machinists and relay my dad's instructions. That is all that worker did, pass materials and instructions. My dad was not allowed to talk directly to the people he needed to do the work, he could not just walk it over there himself. He had to wait for the messenger. Messenger is on break or doing something else? Sucks for you! You get to lose four hours of productivity on that refinement process because you cant do your job without the messenger. He loved it when his company closed down the plan in Michigan and relocated to Tennessee, taking all the good engineering talent with it. With the new, union-free shop, my dad could work much more efficiently. He loved having all the union restrictions lifted. Productivity went up, costs went down. If you purchased a Sears Craftsman Air Compressor five to fifteen years ago, chances are all the major components and assemblies were designed in part by my father(#2 for R&D).

Now, add to that things like the teachers unions. The NEA is strangling public education. Thanks to the union, it is pretty much impossible to fire the POS teachers that do absolutely nothing of value. The teachers union brought the public hate on themselves, and most unions do it as well. When you protect the dirtbags that should be fired, everyone hates you.

As for public sector unions in general, get rid of them! Incompetence should not be rewarded, performance should! When the public sector unions bargain for more, who is sitting across the table from them? Oh, that is right, the politicians that the unions help elect. Hmm, something is wrong with this picture... 




3. As for Wisconsin and tax breaks causing this, try to do a little reading next time:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704900004576152320132834818.html

The tax breaks have absolutely NO impact on the current budget for Wisconsin. They are tax incentives for NEW business to move to the state and set up shop. The constantly proclaimed surplus doesn't account for $258 million in projected costs to hit near the end of the current budget, oops...

You see, states regularly offer businesses tax incentives to do big things in their state. The more than make up for the "lost" revenue (hint, you cannot lose something you never would have had) by the new revenue from other aspects of that business that drive the economy.

[jm21-2]

My fiance and I have talked about moving to Australia in a few years. It's been interesting researching the idea: very strong unions, high minimum wage, state health care, pretty good welfare benefits for young families, but they seem to get by just fine. The idea of being able to work at any job you like and be assured you will be making a living wage with health care and some vacation time is pretty attractive. Is it the best system for wealth generation? I'm sure it's not. Does it provide a pretty good life for the vast majority of the population? Seems to. Sounds pretty nice sometimes.

Of course they don't have a massive military budget, foreign wars, or a huge national debt to burden them. They are also able to ration medical care for the elderly and have means-tested state retirement. If we knocked down our military budget, got rid of most of our debt, rationed medicare and medicaid better, and had means-tested retirement no one would worry much about the unions...

[Tanuki]

Woody, point well taken on the Wisconsin tax cut. 

However, I do find your 2nd hand story about your fathers engineering days in a Michgan plant highly exaggerated.  I myself have worked in Union plants, not as a Union worker but as supplier quality and as a quality manager in the automotive industry in Michigan.  I always found those stories about how you can't fire a Union worker and the stories of how you can't get Union folks to work pretty much a cheap cop out for bad management.  I have had plenty of write ups on Union workers and not one of my write ups ever went to arbitration.

The reason I was successful was based on being consistent.  When quality procedures were established and implemented, I consistently applied them and kept them updated with the current production processes. And, you don't cut slack.  That means you can't let one off the hook. If you do, then you have to let everyone off the hook. You can't be slack in letting procedures lag behind changes.  You apply changes under controlled conditions.  Engineers I found in most cases, were poor at following rules and wanting to implement uncontrolled changes.  In high speed production this is bad and can cause serious problems.

[Tanuki]

FT- I lived in Michigan and now I live in Virginia.

Jeff, I appreciate your link.  Maybe you would like to share that to those coal miners who got killed.  Or, hey! I got one better for you.  Why don't you personally take that link down to Mississippi and show that to the folks who live along the cost.  I am most sure they will feel pretty relieved about their situation once they read that.

No matter how you slice it, management who cuts corners and takes advantage impacts us all.  In some cases the community gets stuck with the bill and execs get off untouched.  Wall street is darn fine example of that and the biggest reason we are in the mess we are in today.

[Jeff S]

People get killed in coal mines. People get killed racing cars, driving forklifts, and commercial fishing for crabs. They also get killed being cops and firemen, not to fulfill some corporate greed lust but to do something that helps their fellow man. It's a damn shame, but it happens. They mostly do those activities because they pay better than mowing lawns or sitting at home sewing doilys.

I don't see how you can tie corporate greed to industrial accidents. These days it is far cheaper to institute hard core, strict safety rules than it is to have an accident, with the attendant lawsuits, loss of reputation and everything else that goes along with that. Accidents are just that, accidents, and lessons learned from each accident are used to improve the processes and procedures. You sound like a guy who understands ISO-9000 and continuous improvement.

And public service unions have done, or propose doing, exactly what to minimize accidents? Are public service employees in non-union states in more inclined to die on the job than in states where there are public service unions?

[El flaco]

My fiance and I have talked about moving to Australia in a few years. It's been interesting researching the idea: very strong unions, high minimum wage, state health care, pretty good welfare benefits for young families, but they seem to get by just fine. The idea of being able to work at any job you like and be assured you will be making a living wage with health care and some vacation time is pretty attractive. Is it the best system for wealth generation? I'm sure it's not. Does it provide a pretty good life for the vast majority of the population? Seems to. Sounds pretty nice sometimes.

Of course they don't have a massive military budget, foreign wars, or a huge national debt to burden them. They are also able to ration medical care for the elderly and have means-tested state retirement. If we knocked down our military budget, got rid of most of our debt, rationed medicare and medicaid better, and had means-tested retirement no one would worry much about the unions...

Spain also has very strong unions, high minimum wage, state healthcare. good welfare benefits and no major wars yet their economy sucks so obviously these things are not the backbone of a strong economy.  Australia is generating wealth, but it is not the unions responsible for that.  The unions are along for the ride, but if they get too fat that is when you start to have trouble.

I haven't done any research, but I wonder if public sector unions in other countries have the same type of abuses we have in the States.  It's more like crony capitalism here than how a real union should operate.  For example,  there were seven Wisconsin bus drivers that pulled in more than $100,000 last year.  That doesn't include healthcare and pension benefits.  There are airline pilots in private sector unions that make less than that.

My local paper had an online database of all public sector union employees, their title and salary that I was looking at maybe 6 months ago.  There were so many fake/no show jobs it was amazing.  You can tell when you see a job title like "Deputy Director of Diversity" or "Supervisor of Special Projects" that they are totally bogus.  Government would not be affected in any way if they were eliminated tomorrow.

I would prefer not to have public sector unions, but if we do have them they should be voluntary.  Employees should not be forced to join and forced to contribute by payroll deduction.

[jm21-2]

Spain also has very strong unions, high minimum wage, state healthcare. good welfare benefits and no major wars yet their economy sucks so obviously these things are not the backbone of a strong economy.  Australia is generating wealth, but it is not the unions responsible for that.  The unions are along for the ride, but if they get too fat that is when you start to have trouble.

I haven't done any research, but I wonder if public sector unions in other countries have the same type of abuses we have in the States.  It's more like crony capitalism here than how a real union should operate.  For example,  there were seven Wisconsin bus drivers that pulled in more than $100,000 last year.  That doesn't include healthcare and pension benefits.  There are airline pilots in private sector unions that make less than that.

My local paper had an online database of all public sector union employees, their title and salary that I was looking at maybe 6 months ago.  There were so many fake/no show jobs it was amazing.  You can tell when you see a job title like "Deputy Director of Diversity" or "Supervisor of Special Projects" that they are totally bogus.  Government would not be affected in any way if they were eliminated tomorrow.

I would prefer not to have public sector unions, but if we do have them they should be voluntary.  Employees should not be forced to join and forced to contribute by payroll deduction.

Australia is certainly benefiting from bountiful natural resources which Spain doesn't have, but at the same time it's so far away form every other country it has high costs to import/export anything. Are the unions responsible for Spain's economy? Probably not, but don't know enough about it to say for sure. Spain had a good growth rate for many many years. Seems more like they suffered at the hands of easy mortgages asnd real estate investment like we have in the US. Seems to be the whole world over has been screwed by that....Australia will be getting hit soon as well.

Taiwan has been held up as a great example of a free market economy (the "taiwan miracle") and they have national health insurance which is far more generous than that in Australia or many European countries. They got hit by the real estate BS in the '90s and still having problems (though a new bubble starting in Taipei).

In any case, not saying those things are the backbone of a strong economy. Just saying that's it's possible to have a strong economy and still have those things. They would not make that much of a difference as far as economic growth goes compared to what we have now, especially since our major systems are so screwed up at the moment. Our system, which basically screws young middle class families and provides huge benefits to old people and the chronically unemployed, is not so wonderful or forward-thinking.

I'd love a free market system but there's zero chance of that. Starting to think it's better to have a European style system than what we have...at least I'd get some benefit from it.

[ignorante]

I'd love a free market system but there's zero chance of that. Starting to think it's better to have a European style system than what we have...at least I'd get some benefit from it.

  Then move to Europe and your wish shall be granted.

[Bob_S]

Maybe you would like to share that to those coal miners who got killed.

We wouldn't need so many men going down into dangerous coal mines (is there a coal mine that isn't intrinsically dangerous simply because it is a coal mine?) if the primitive tree-hugger Luddites didn't block our development of nuclear power like the rest of the industrialized nations have.   

I haven't done any research, but I wonder if public sector unions in other countries have the same type of abuses we have in the States.

Not nearly to that degree for a variety of reasons.  One of which is that many of those countries still function as a meritocracy.  Government jobs do not go to just any lazy person who can pass a simple civil service exam and match some bean-counter's quota list but rather to the top performers on those tests.  As a result, a government job is a sort of prestige position that you can take pride in, not use to exploit others while you kick back till your pension kicks in.

[Researcher]

   Unions get blamed for alot of things. They were blamed for GM's downfall but Ford has unions and they didn't fall near as far as GM. Poor management was the biggest reason for GM's woes. Rick Waggoner, GM's previous CEO, was voted worst CEO of all time.

  I have never been a member of a union but I'm glad they exist in the private sector.I have always worked for non-union companies that were scared sh*tless that the unions would come in so they treated their employees well. The best position to be in is working for a company that has the union right outside the gate trying to come in.So, personally I'm glad they are around.

  As far as safety in the workplace goes I'd say that lawsuits have done more to promote safer working conditions than any union has.

  Teacher unions and government unions aren't really needed in my opinion.Seems like they do more harm than good.


     Researcher

[Tanuki]

Mining, yes, has a lot of hazards involved and those hazards get even worse when management doesn't take action and address those hazards that are preventable and avoidable.  Big Branch explosion is a great example. Yes, it is nice Jeff wants to call these industrial accidents.  It is laughable to assume that penalties and regulatory fines keep company's from make negligible management decision when violating laws, industry standards, regulations and codes.

Now how does that relate to public sector?  Knowing there are turds that manager in the private sector, I am more than sure there are turds who manage in the public sector.  Last I remember, no union ever ran a plant or a school.  There is always some type of management around. I think schools suffer more from absent management then the private sector but, that is more of an assumption on my part.

[fathertime]

Trade deficit cam in at negative almost 50billion in February.

 Our citizens should be getting an education in subjects that matter and can create value to people overseas.  All this stupid crap people are investing in here is so stupid it is mind-boggling.   I've heard people say that the health-care industry is going to bring us out of our economic funk...what a bunch of utter and complete horseshyte...how does it help our economy to have our young tending to the old people...i'm not saying it isn't necessary, but how can people actually think that is going to benefit the economy, it simply more drag for the economy? Having top flight medical schools is something that we still have which I see as a net positive especially if foreign money is coming in and paying to get educated here.

Fathertime!   

[jm21-2]

Not nearly to that degree for a variety of reasons.  One of which is that many of those countries still function as a meritocracy.  Government jobs do not go to just any lazy person who can pass a simple civil service exam and match some bean-counter's quota list but rather to the top performers on those tests.  As a result, a government job is a sort of prestige position that you can take pride in, not use to exploit others while you kick back till your pension kicks in.

Putting those with top merits in government jobs can also result in them having a huge ego and sense of entitlement....which makes them much easier to manipulate by savvy businessmen, resulting in a greater amount of corruption. My fiance had a classmate who studied construction for the reason that it was easier to pass the government exam....they'd do a purge of the corrupt officials in the construction bureau (or whatever it was called) every now and then and there were so many corrupt workers that there were always a ton of openings. Construction companies bribing government officials, rigged bidding, etc., seem to be a huge problem in many parts of Asia....our government is remarkably lacking in corruption compared to some of those other systems....at least at the level of non-elected county and state officals....and probably most non-elected federal workers as well. I'd rather have a bunch of lazy government workers than a bunch of corrupt government workers.

[Jeff S]

Yes poor management creates all sorts of problems. I fail to see the connection between poor management and corporate greed, though, unless the implication is that the companies don't pay enough to attract top quality management. Interesting point, and maybe true in a lot of cases. Wait til the union heads hear that management salaries in some of these poorly performing companies are going up.