Riots in the streets 2008-2013 style.

[jm21-2]

Inefficient police are a boon in many cases...not sure I'd want to see that privatized. The thought of a police force that was super-efficient at giving out speeding tickets and reaps large profits from them makes me cringe.

[Researcher]

    Why not do away with law enforcement all together.Think of the tax money that could be saved.Everyone could just fend for themselves.....


   Researcher

[fathertime]

Seems that anxiety, or even hysteria is contagious.  Folks in California have much to worry about.  The fortified shelters for the impending doom shouldn't be called bomb shelters, because it's not the bomb but rather rioting that is the concern.  Lets refer to them as 'Helter Skelter Shelters.'  They need to be reinforced against earthquakes and OSHA compliant.

Another thing for the Cal guys to worry about is the future captain of the sinking ship.  I just heard an excerpt from the debate between candidates for governor.  Speaking about the illegal immigration issue, Moonbeam pointed a finger at the federal government, spoke about a "path to citizenship" and alluded to immigrants "lurking in the shadows."  They're not lurking in the shadows, they're out in the open. Everyone knows where to find day laborers, and there already is a path to citizenship called legal immigration. That's the way my Peruvian wife & I are doing it.

Helter Skelter Shelters, very good.

Regarding our choices for govt. here, I'm relatively disgusted with both of their sets of ideas for policy, but especially BROWN.  I am barely going to be able to drag myself to the polls to vote for Whittman, but I got to do what I can to keep Brown out of office again.

You are correct, the illegal aliens are all over the street corners/home depots, they are easy to spot and not in any shadows.  The CA debates and political debates generally speaking are so intellectually dishonest that it is absolutely insulting.  The pandering that is going on for the 'hispanic vote' makes me ill.  It seems that whenever a politician really gives some 'straight talk' he/she is branded a racist and that tag sticks with enough people and they he/she becomes unelectable.   

  Although my morale regarding my personal life is sky-high,  I don't see a very good future for CA anytime soon.  As I've said many times, there are too many governmental incentives to NOT play by rules and follow laws.  It makes those that do, feel like suckers and more and more people aren't willing to be suckers anymore.

Fathertime!

[robert angel]

You can call USCIS or your local police and report illegal aliens, addresses and all and they'll usually ask you "Are they doing anything wrong?"

As said, it's almost pointless, because they're 'hiding' in plain sight. We have squares and neighborhoods where they gather every day at the same time, trying to get work as day laborers.

Of course the politicians currently running talk tough about stopping all that, but they're full of B.S. and with their ties to the very businesses that often hire illegals, hypocrites as well.

They're building homes, serving fast food at front counters of major chains and the real desperate ones are still picking fruit and vegetables, while the rest of them are working up the food chain with relative impunity--they've gone 'mainstream'. What a farce.

[Jeff S]

Really? Illegal Aliens in California? Where?

[Jedironin]

Not just CA, but in quite a few cities in America... My boss and I were pretty surprised when we went to set up a new office in Seattle, WA a few years ago, and at the fast-food places we had a hard time finding an employee who spoke English! 

[Researcher]

     There is no doubt that the US is going to go through some changes soon.We are the world's biggest economy that also has one of the highest standards of living.I think we rank #6.If we can move forward and still maintain a good standard of living I don't think we will see rioting in the streets.The "Free Marketeers" preach if we would just deregulate everything and open the borders then everything would be fine.My question is but for who?I don't think the middle class will be around if we did that.I don't see lower wages here doing nothing but lowering our standard of living.

     When NAFTA passed I was interested in seeing things firsthand.That's when I was lucky enough to go to Mexico and work for the company I was working for at the time.Things were different for sure.Even though the Mexican company was supposed to go by the same safety, environmental, and quality standards as the US plant, it didn't happen.I almost got severely injured numerous times because of unsafe working conditions, I witnessed several times when the company would dump chemicals out in the soil next to the plant and the quality of the product was no where near what it should have been.I got to know several of the workers there and just felt plain bad for them because of how they had to live on such a small salary.

         It has been said that a rising tide lifts all boats but I didn't see any of their boats rising very much.To me this rising tide theory doesn't always work.If so there would be no such thing as a jobless recovery.So I'm a little skeptical of the free marketeers although I do agree with alot of what they say.I'm all for a free market as long as it doesn't destroy our standard of living.Just my 2 cents.


   Researcher   

[fathertime]

         It has been said that a rising tide lifts all boats but I didn't see any of their boats rising very much.To me this rising tide theory doesn't always work.If so there would be no such thing as a jobless recovery.So I'm a little skeptical of the free marketeers although I do agree with alot of what they say.I'm all for a free market as long as it doesn't destroy our standard of living.Just my 2 cents.


   Researcher   

Well Researcher, it appears to me a mathematical certainty that our system is going to break down.  It also appears to me that the powers that be have decided to make the older people grab their ankles more so then the young because they are less likely to put up a fight and take to the streets.  Basically 0% earned on many safe investments and pending inflation is real bad for older people that were prudent enough to do the right thing and save.  The rule breakers and reckless continue to get the benefits and be rewarded.   

 

Fathertime!

[no comment]

Well Researcher, it appears to me a mathematical certainty that our system is going to break down.  It also appears to me that the powers that be have decided to make the older people grab their ankles more so then the young because they are less likely to put up a fight and take to the streets.  Basically 0% earned on many safe investments and pending inflation is real bad for older people that were prudent enough to do the right thing and save.  The rule breakers and reckless continue to get the benefits and be rewarded.

This is an emotional post without any facts or evidence.  Mathematical certainty? Show me the equation. Who are "the powers that be"?  The Bilderburgers or the Trilateral Commission?

There is evidence for pending inflation, that the government will pay down the debt with a deflated currency. Who are the "rule breakers and reckless"?

[no comment]

     When NAFTA passed I was interested in seeing things firsthand.That's when I was lucky enough to go to Mexico and work for the company I was working for at the time.Things were different for sure.Even though the Mexican company was supposed to go by the same safety, environmental, and quality standards as the US plant, it didn't happen.I almost got severely injured numerous times because of unsafe working conditions, I witnessed several times when the company would dump chemicals out in the soil next to the plant and the quality of the product was no where near what it should have been.I got to know several of the workers there and just felt plain bad for them because of how they had to live on such a small salary.

         It has been said that a rising tide lifts all boats but I didn't see any of their boats rising very much.To me this rising tide theory doesn't always work.If so there would be no such thing as a jobless recovery.So I'm a little skeptical of the free marketeers although I do agree with alot of what they say.I'm all for a free market as long as it doesn't destroy our standard of living.Just my 2 cents. 

Researcher,
There is no free trade agreement between the US and Colombia.  Would you oppose it or support it?

I wonder if it would bring down the price of coffee and cocoa.

[Researcher]

Researcher,
There is no free trade agreement between the US and Colombia.  Would you oppose it or support it?

I wonder if it would bring down the price of coffee and cocoa.

   I would support any free trade agreement that was fair and enforced in the future.The problem with these agreements, as I have seen, is that they are made without any regard to being monitored.IMHO, a global free market would be a good thing but our government should be trying to facilitate a transition that isn't going to destroy our way of life so quickly.I think we have a rocky road ahead.


    Researcher

[robert angel]

Seems that companies are driven to relentlessly reduce costs of manufacturing and labor. Even when a company is doing well, it seems the mantra "We have to learn to do MORE with LESS" carries on and many things we buy and use are made with cheaper materials and are of less quality.

Last week, I was looking at electronics and a non commission salesman, told me I'd be smarter to buy this year's blu-ray models, because it seems that each new model has more plastic in it and seems more fragile--the build quality keeps going down.

He pointed out the inner workings of some home theater receivers and as I knew, the expensive ones, which usually weigh more, have a lot more 'guts per watt' and it's not just the heat sinks--it's the electrical boards.

Then we looked at some TV's they had in the back. The more expensive, better picture ones, had more extensive electronics and the attention to soldering was much more evident. It was explained to me that the cheaper electronics use cheaper solder, and then do the soldering in a much more shoddy way.

We switched copier/scanner machines  at work and it cost us millions and the new ones are so full of plastic that under hard use, pieces either break or melt more often.

We used to have a sign "The copy machine is temporarily in WORKING order"--time to pull it back out and have it laminated.

This drive to make things cheaper and cheaper with less employees, building things of less quality with each new model has got to stop.

It has stopped with the American owned automobile companies, who are turning out some very well executed cars--ala the Buick Lacrosse, but the average American doesn't want to trust $25 to $65,000 there, they still consider the foreign owned companies a safer investment.

But hey--let's face it, with very few exceptions such as the 90% USA content and built Ford Focus (not a bad car and the ZX model a while back was a sleeper sports car) they're all world cars.

Hell that American icon, the Ford F150 pick up, is only 55% USA content built. The Chevy Silverado and Cadillac Escalades are made in Mexico. Enchiladas, burritos and Chevrolet, anyone?

[Jedironin]

"The copy machine is temporarily in WORKING order"

Oh, I gotta make one of these! I have JUST the machine to hang it on!    I'll have to hang it by a string or something, though, so I can flip it over to "Out of Order" as-needed!  :p

[Jeff S]

Well, the reason Chevy trucks are made in Mexico has nothing to do with cheaper labor or materials. It is because of CAFE standards - Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency. In the past 20 years or so until lately, People like and buy Chevy trucks and suburbans, and not Chevy small cars, so to meet the government mandated fleet average fuel economy (which applies to only vehicles made in the US) and supply what the public was demanding, GM had to make their vehicles out of the US. It's about government regulation, not some imagined corporate greed.

The reason American made cars are more cheaply made is because they have to be. There is $1500 in union costs to build a car that the Japanese cars (made in the USA) simply do not have, and American buyers aren't willing to pay $1500 more for the same car, so they have to make parts cheaper to be competitive. It's a viscous circle.

[Researcher]

    Companies do what they are designed to do:Make money.Nowadays if they don't they don't stay in business long.What should be happening is consumers spending less and saving more.People should be looking at ways to "cut costs" like companies are doing.I have used only cell phones for quite a while now.I fired the landline companies a long time ago.It does my heart good knowing they don't receive one dime from me.

    One of the problems is the mindset here in the US.From the Civil War forward each generation seems to have lived better than the one before it.Everything worked until the 1970's
when real wages went flat.Since then people have found ways to try and live better.From working more overtime to mortgaging the home and it just can't be done anymore.Maybe it is time to change the mindset.


  Researcher

[robert angel]

Jeff,

Re:
>>The reason American made cars are more cheaply made is because they have to be. There is $1500 in union costs to build a car that the Japanese cars (made in the USA) simply do not have<<

Hate to admit it, but you're right--if not under estimating the costs unions add to USA made cars. I saw all the 'civil rights' that workers had when I worked as a 'floater', doing absentee relief on the worst jobs in what was then GM's oldest and most inefficient plant--in Tarrytown, NY on the Hudson River.

It was almost all 'white metal'--lots of spot welding and on a really bad day--I was in the paint shop, which then required human 'labor'. The guys everywhere there knew it as the 'jungle line' and man o live, it was live.

On hot days, the worst jobs would always have guys out and they'd maybe go to the Doctor for free, get codeine for free and veg out at home until the weather cooled off.

Being 'union' then was like "Working for God"--you couldn't get fired, they used to say.

I was a young buck and I hustled, although it was killer physically and for the first day or two, my body would be racked with pain, but by the 3rd day, my body would've  'adjusted' and then I'd get a new job and hurt somewhere else all over again.

I had GM management and the Unions promising all kinds of big things in my future, but I'm glad I listened those old black dudes, who told me--"Get out of here before this place makes you into an animal--I'm a slave to GM and I hate it".

I made so called 'friends' in there easily, making more money than I had time to spend, was offered a second job, bar tending at a bar closest to the main plant entrance, which was a gold mine--I even had offers to get in on the lucrative drug trafficking that went on in there--if I'd tried to 'free lance' I knew they'd break my arms and legs and they made that very clear.

It was a heady experience for a 19 y/o kid who thought he knew more than he really did. Between management, the union and the organized crime in there, I'd probably be rich, dead or both, if I'd stayed there, but I'm glad I got out. The wiseguy who owned the bar even gave me an Oldsmobile Delta 88 convertible for my own personal use. I still miss that convertible, but not Tarrytown and GM.

There was a time when unions were necessary and they still can be in certain scenarios, but the UAW, with the help of corporate blunders, about killed the big three and we're still paying for them--and I think probably more than $1500 per vehicle sold in the USA.

[Researcher]

       I've always worked around unions but never been a member.The best position to be in is not to be a member but have the union at the gates of the plant trying to get in.It keeps management somewhat honest and you don't have to pay union dues!

   I really don't understand why these unionized plants don't just shut down and move south.Foriegn companies are setting up here and don't have unions.The state I live in is a right to work state which makes unionizing difficult.I guess it's just as well because I don't see GM or even Ford being a major player in the future.Other companies seem to be gaining ground fast.

    Researcher

[fathertime]

This is an emotional post without any facts or evidence.  Mathematical certainty? Show me the equation. Who are "the powers that be"?  The Bilderburgers or the Trilateral Commission?

There is evidence for pending inflation, that the government will pay down the debt with a deflated currency. Who are the "rule breakers and reckless"?

NC I have my tit caught in a wringer today but I'll give your  post a response when I can. 

Briefly, though the rule breakers/reckless are as follows.


I know many of the rule breakers and the reckless, 
The rule breakers that come off the top of my head did whatever it took to buy houses during the boom years.  They falsified their mortgage applications, bought multiple rental properties or personal residences and IF they forgot to cash out in 2005 or so, they then pleaded for a govt. sponsered mortgage modification.  If they got their 2% loan then they MIGHT continue paying on their property.  If not, or if they didn’t want to go through the hassle, they simply continued  renting out the property and stringed along the foreclosure process for months/years.  I have a friend is currently collecting  4,300 a month on properties that he hasn’t paid the mortgage on in months.  I have another buddy same deal collecting 9,700 a month in rents, $0 in mortgage payments.   It won’t last forever, but with the slow foreclosure process they might collect for a year, maybe more, it has already been a couple months for both of them.  Heck that could wind up being some serious money!  I don’t think this is unique to my buddies, I was renting a house a couple years back and found out my landlord was pocketing my cash and not paying the mortgage.  I promptly stopped paying him, but most people wouldn’t have caught that and would have continued to enrich him.  I’m convinced this is happening all over and our system is awful easy on these criminals.  A bank robber can get 10 years for stealing a few grand, but these guys receive no punishment, except a bad credit report and they don’t care, hell these guys crack me up and play for sympathy sometimes as if they have been victimized.  much more to say on this subject.

Fathertime!

[Alabamaboy!]

Researcher: I read recently that GM is now selling more cars in China than in the US. I find that hard to believe but it may be true. They have joint venture plants there for sure.

The GM product has improved greatly over the past couple years.

Plus since they have gone through bankruptcy, and the resulting labor concessions, they are becoming more competitive in the world market.

I think they are set to start selling stock to the public again real soon.

That is a very fast turn around on a behemoth of a company. Just goes to show you how things can work out if you just let things crash, take out the machete, make they necessary "adjustments" and reopen in a more lean, competitive  position.

That is what we should have done with this economy. Just let it crash and then everyone would have been straightened out real quickly.

It would have been rough for a while, but in the end it would have been good for the country. Right now, this is just a long, drawn out mess. Which will affect many generations. And there has been no significant change for the better. It is just all a mirage. All the "stimulus money" has been wasted and did not make any difference that anyone can see. Some of it was to patch up the State budgets, but nobody made any serious changes in the States, and now they will have to pay the piper big time because there will be no way Uncle Sam can bail them out again this year or next or next.

I don't care what the official numbers say, things are still going down out West. And probably the same in FL. So with continued dwindling of the tax rolls, the governments are going to start slashing and there is going to be an avalanche of government workers on the streets without jobs. Up until now, that kind of disaster has been mostly avoided. But the worst is yet to come.

When the military downsizes, more people in the Streets.

As far as I can see, a huge number of the military and government jobs will eventually need to be slashed because the cost is enormous and there is no payback. Those jobs do not improve our bottom line as a country.

[Alabamaboy!]

Even if things crashed, I don't think it would kill anyone. I am living in one of the counties with the highest unemployment in the entire US. But I still see that most families here are driving huge SUV's, have 2-3 cars in the driveway, wear name brand clothing, live in houses twice as big as they really need, etc. If they all got knocked down a bit, across the board, I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing.

Maybe they would realize that they don't need those $4K wheels for the Kia Sorento.

[fathertime]

This is an emotional post without any facts or evidence.  Mathematical certainty? Show me the equation. Who are "the powers that be"?  The Bilderburgers or the Trilateral Commission?

There is evidence for pending inflation, that the government will pay down the debt with a deflated currency. Who are the "rule breakers and reckless"?

I like to create 'emotional' posts and have no equations to share, although I have analyzed plenty but I don’t save them but I suppose I could pull up a few if we discuss this further.    I did say mathematical certainty so perhaps I should provide a mathematical basis.  I did qualify my statement somewhat with ‘it appears to me’.  That statement is based on the following systems which are already in the process of failing:
1. Social Security ( we are already taking out more than we are putting in)
2. Pension funds  ( We weren't supposed to live to 90) maybe the socialized health care will shorten the lifespans for us and save this system.
3.  Housing scam  (ridiculous industry to base an economy on)
 (I consider a deflated currency a breakdown, albeit a controlled breakdown)

Other factors I include under global reasons why we are doomed is, miseducated workforce, societal laziness, societal entitlement, deep ethnic divisions, future oil scarcity/higher costs for extraction, placing political correctness as number one instead of solving growing problems, our expensive and permissive prison system.  There are plenty more, but these were off the top of my bald head.   

In addition to all this, I just think people are angry, real angry.  I don’t know if the lower classes of people in society are any angrier than they already were, but the middle class anger is off the charts compared to where it has been in the past. As I mentioned earlier, the rebellion is already occuring with the middle class just choosing not to pay their mortgages.   I really think is possible is that people may decide to riot, not because life is so terrible here, because clearly it is not (at least not yet). They have had what I consider minor riots in Europe over stupid crap like raising retirement age by two years, we are going to get much worse than that, in my opinion.   My belief is that our society is plagued with irresponsibility in the people and especially in the govt.  the people are looking for a reason to riot against ‘da man’ and waiting to ‘get some’ when the opportunity comes along and it is bound to come along.   

NC if you want to discuss any of the following topics and how it is going to contribute to a system collapse I'd be happy to, but there are too many topics to gloss over in just one post.
 So it appears to you that we are going to print/monetize our way out of this. How do you think that is going to work out?  What did you think of the article I provided in the original post?

Fathertime!

[fathertime]

Even if things crashed, I don't think it would kill anyone. I am living in one of the counties with the highest unemployment in the entire US. But I still see that most families here are driving huge SUV's, have 2-3 cars in the driveway, wear name brand clothing, live in houses twice as big as they really need, etc. If they all got knocked down a bit, across the board, I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing.

Maybe they would realize that they don't need those $4K wheels for the Kia Sorento.

I remember hearing how life was with the elders in my family.  Small 2 bedroom house, 5 kids, everybody was fine.  Nowadays, we get a couple with one child and they have to have a 3-4 bedroom house and a stupid SUV or they will just die of inconvenience.  With the extra hours they work they sacrifice a piece of their soul without good reason.    I tell you in my house, the girls share a bedroom (bunk beds) and with the new crop of kids they are going to share too.  Not necessarily to save money (although I like to save money when I can), it is more because I want them to be close and connected.  I don't like how children are being raised in our society.  Many adults and children are feeling entitled yet disconnected.   Look at many of the Mexican families, they may have very little but that family is tight, you mess with one and you will have three siblings to contend with.  I dislike have illegal aliens here, but I respect the family structure they often create.

Fathertime!

[Alabamaboy!]

FT, I saw this mess coming a few years back and started downsizing with everything. As soon as possible I am going to downsize my house too. You saw my little crib in California. We have so much fun there. Because it is small and we spend a lot of time together. My house here in the desert is spacious but most of the space is not even used. We watch TV in the living room or we all pile into my king size bed. 1/2 of the 3 car garage is empty. 2 of the bedrooms are not being used. One living room not used. I want to get rid of this house and get a small condo here in the desert. I figure even with the down real estate market, it will not kill me because the new condo will be much cheaper than it was a few years ago, and I will save money on taxes, utilities, lawn service, insurance, pool chemicals, etc.

It is amazing how much waste there is out there. I have cut a lot and there is still a lot more fat in the budget. If every family did the same thing, and God forbid...the government, we would be in a much better place than we are now.

Oh, and what you brought up about the Mexican families....there were some very interesting results of a study released this past week. It showed that Hispanics living in the US had a greater life expectancy than any other group of people, more than blacks, Asians, whites. That was simply incredible to me because I watch them eating chorizo burritos , quesadillas, all kinds of stuff like that. Obesity is a major problem, but they are living longer than the rest of us. I think it has something to do with the close family ties that you d mentioned.

[Researcher]

Researcher: I read recently that GM is now selling more cars in China than in the US. I find that hard to believe but it may be true. They have joint venture plants there for sure.

The GM product has improved greatly over the past couple years.

Plus since they have gone through bankruptcy, and the resulting labor concessions, they are becoming more competitive in the world market.

I think they are set to start selling stock to the public again real soon.

That is a very fast turn around on a behemoth of a company. Just goes to show you how things can work out if you just let things crash, take out the machete, make they necessary "adjustments" and reopen in a more lean, competitive  position.

That is what we should have done with this economy. Just let it crash and then everyone would have been straightened out real quickly.

It would have been rough for a while, but in the end it would have been good for the country. Right now, this is just a long, drawn out mess. Which will affect many generations. And there has been no significant change for the better. It is just all a mirage. All the "stimulus money" has been wasted and did not make any difference that anyone can see. Some of it was to patch up the State budgets, but nobody made any serious changes in the States, and now they will have to pay the piper big time because there will be no way Uncle Sam can bail them out again this year or next or next.

I don't care what the official numbers say, things are still going down out West. And probably the same in FL. So with continued dwindling of the tax rolls, the governments are going to start slashing and there is going to be an avalanche of government workers on the streets without jobs. Up until now, that kind of disaster has been mostly avoided. But the worst is yet to come.

When the military downsizes, more people in the Streets.

As far as I can see, a huge number of the military and government jobs will eventually need to be slashed because the cost is enormous and there is no payback. Those jobs do not improve our bottom line as a country.

   Things at GM should improve since they got rid of Rick Wagoner, who is known as the worst CEO of all time.He helped run GM into the ground and walked away with a 20 million dollar pension.I would have done the same for half that!

   The last I heard China has about 80 car companies.I saw a video of a 30 mph crash test of one of these Chinese cars and before it was over the engine was in the back seat.So I'm sure the joint venture will benefit the Chinese much more than GM.Truth be known GM will probably  be Chinese owned before all is said and done.

    The info I have is that most of GM's sales this year are fleet sales.That's not good for a car company.There isn't much profit and it hurts the brand image.The only thing it does is make sales numbers look good.The only thing they have going for them is their truck sales.

    Other companies don't really consider GM as much of a competitor as Toyota and Honda.Hyundai has been considered an up and coming force and the only competition Hyundai has its eyes on are the Chinese.I was in a meeting that was on competition and the only real concern was that the Chinese companies were looking to buy a US brand to enter the market here.Given all of these factors I really don't see GM having a real comeback.At least not the GM that once was.

  Researcher

 

[michaelb]

Riots in the streets 1965 style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emIGVo_q0Tw