Riots in the streets 2008-2013 style.

[fathertime]

. I think most units would turn tail and join the rebels. Personally I would like to see a new Republic of Texas with New Mexico and Oklahoma part of it along with a few northern Mexican states. Texas is the only part of the US that has a functioning economy creating jobs while places like NY and California degenerate into pale versions of a failed Europe.

Hey man what the hell am I supposed to do out here in California??  Don't leave me out of your new republic! I'll suppply the avocados. 


I gotta say I like your thinking though, lets see if the leadership can get past this debt ceiling in the next month or two.


Fathertime!

[robert angel]

The bottom line is that a very small percentage of entrenched people, have the lion's share of wealth and power and that the majority of them, (no, not each and EVERY one of them) have no real incentive to change the path we're on. In fact they have much more to gain by accelerating or at least continuing the current path we're on. And it's not just Americans--people of wealth and power from other countries seem to be playing right along with this situation and the middle classes are decreasing in size in most other nations as well.


Unlike what Utopia Cowboy points out, I don't think the various arms of the US military are of the mindset or ability to stage a coup and I don't think a powerful and large enough, unified group of citizens is able to put forthith and effective uprising, never mind a revolution. Few of them have the automatic weapons, tanks and other state of the art weaponry that the military has vast amounts of. All the same, our govt and the people who finance them and pull their political strings, have considered these possibilities in a most serious way and have action plans for several 'what if'' scenarios, should riots and revolts occur. We may outnumber them, but they outarm us to an extraordinary extent


The economy and employment prospects? Never mind high tech and health care, they re outsourcing it and changing the health care system that still operates here. Senior employees with 1st rate skills and reputations are being layed of to allow fresh graduates to come in at low wages with much lesser benefits.

 
If you really  want to make money, 'see to it' (grease some palms) so  that you land govt. contracts to build more prisons, both brick and mortar, as well as strictly guarded tent and 'Quonset hut type' containment centers--THAT and the overall privatization of building and running prisons, is one of the fastest growing and most lucrative business opportunities today. As I have said, the USA has the largest percentage of its populace incarcerated in prisons--far  more than any other nation on earth, and it's expected to increase significantly.


Further more, no matter how good or bad the President, be it Republican or Democratic--and I think a lot of the down hill momentum we're still seeing really started with Clinton and NAFTA, with lax antitrust regulation, as well as with very loose investment and negligent banking law enforcement.

These and our incredible national debt, really got rolling,  continued and actually escalated under a clueless and intellectually feeble George Bush, who was having his strings pulled by the likes of Dick Cheney, while Dubya was more worried about life 'back on the ranch' and hell bent on getting revenge in the Middle East, after his daddy left a lot of unfinished business there and with egg on his face.

.
The Presidency in the USA is less powerful and unable to effect change today than ever before in recent history (maybe except for Jimmy Carter's term) and there's not a whole lot the President can do to stop this juggernaut from continuing on it's precarious (to put it mildly) path. In this case, separation of govt. powers and parties may prevent or at least hinder, timely, helpful reform.  It will be interesting to see what happens when the fed's policy of 'quantitative easing' ends shortly and a seemingly endless amount of money the banks  have been receiving from the fed, yet have have been very reluctant to loan to small and medium business, or to first time prospective home buyers with excellent credit, stops coming rolling off the presses like toilet paper. There'a already such an unknown quantity (the fed doesn't legally have to tell how much anymore) that inflation, when wages are low and emplyment high already, could be a real problem.


Colgando, you're very intelligent and have some excellent points and I commend you for not calling fellow members here clowns or worse or otherwise writing disparagingly about other's take on all this, but I think you're not fully grasping the full gravity of the situation we're currently in domestically and the likely way things will infold given certain situations.

I agree that to do well in the economy, you have to look at the international picture and if you work  and balance that, you can prosper, but the vast majority of Americans do not have that mindset, money or ability to do that, while others who can do, and more likely that would make our domestic situation worse, not better and our economic fortunes as a whole would continue to decline.


To put it simply, with guarded optimism, there might, just maybe, be chance to slowly turn this pending trainwreck around, if we stop spending trillions of dollars to supposedly help people who in reality, usually hate us---by stopping to try to keeep the world safe for democracy.
 
If we get tough on trade policy, enforcing  tariffs and other protective measures and impress upon Americans that we have to tighten our own belts, make more high quality products that the world wants and if they don't allow them in without unfair tariffs/restrictions like China and Colombia, to name but two nations, we should do the same thing to them tradewise and cut off all foreign aid other than medicine and the most basic food stuffs . It's bad a enough that we send Puerto Rico 12 billion dollars a month and they hate us, like they once did Spain, but we need to cut the gravy train to those more distant lands, where they take our money, hate us and even kill our citizens there.

Thousand of poorly paid US military men and women have died over there. Do you honestly think that in 5, 10 or 15 years after we've pulled out, that they will still be free, (as if they really are now)  and will have fair, democratic elections and not resort back to the Islamic, strongman, dictator forms of govt. that they have lived with for 100's, if not thousands of years?

One thing for sure is that if we cut loose our so called 'aid', the US Military/Industrial complex will be very unhappy and a lot of politicians will not enjoy the same huge campaign contributions, illegal payoffs, extravagant trips, 'benefits' and other gifts.
 
We have squandered trillions of dollars waging wars, creating business and world trade policies that have allowed US business interests to decimate the economic well being of a huge percentage of our population and it's going to take an almost unimaginable effort to turn what's increasingly a Titantic sized disaster from happening.
 
God save us, because it doesn't appear that our political leaders, in their own little world, seem willing, even if they are aware, to try and salvage the situation. They have cushy pensions after very few years of service, with built in cost of living increases not involving social security, along with 'special' health care plans and other benefits the average American couldn't begin to fathom--why would they want to change things too much? Their wealthy constituants who mean the most to them and who are happy to help them stay in office, are happy with how things are and the politicians are typically more than happy to help  those same constituants continue to prosper as much as possible and kep the gravy train going--even if it means milions of increasingly disenfranchised Americans are increasingly left behind.

[fathertime]

Thousand of poorly paid US military men and women have died over there. Do you honestly think that in 5, 10 or 15 years after we've pulled out, that they will still be free, (as if they really are now)  and will have fair, democratic elections and not resort back to the Islamic, strongman, dictator forms of govt. that they have lived with for 100's, if not thousands of years?

 

I don't believe the real reason we are in the middle east is to 'free' people, that is just what the govt. says to the general public...we should be pulling troops out of all these countries and taking care of the homeland.  Our money should all be spent on US...how does a country like ours give 'foreign aid' when we are broke ourselves?


Fathertime!

[Colgando]

I hear you Robert, I do fully grasp the situation. You didn't mention any of the positive things we have going for us in the US that will help to offset or ease the pain of the situation. When you put it the way you do, we all might as well go ahead and commit suicide. Sure, it is going to be harder in the US however, if you want to see a truly hard life, go to Africa, the US is a long, long way away from the life people live in Africa.


I just think it will be survival of the fittest, those who are fit will survive, those who are not fit will be marginalized into poverty or the increasing poor class, I may be one of those people, but I will survive and life will go on. Also, the country will have to decide what direction it wants to go, the way of Europe or the way of the America of old. I suspect we will have a high tax, large entitlement state which will redistribute the wealth that is concentrated in the top 10% of Americans, I do not see another way for the remaining 90% to get their hands on the wealth, save govt wealth redistribution.


I am not one to call names or anything, never have been. I do not attach myself emotionally to politics or economics and 99% of what goes on in politics and economics is out of my control, so it seems silly to me to attach myself emotionally to things out of my control and to get worked up about it. I do attach myself emotionally to human rights issues though, albeit much of that is out of my control as well, like human trafficking, women who are raped, children who are molested, people who are bullied, people who do not have food to eat, things like that I do get emotional about. The poor in the US currently live a good life compared to many people of the world, the poor in this country have a place to live and food to eat, they are better off than billions of people on the planet.


Man, are we Americans in for a serious reality check, it is to bad we live in such a bubble in the US.

[Researcher]

   Hey Colgando you would be surprised how bad things can get in a short time.Of course I'm old enough to remember the 70's.

    Researcher

[Researcher]

    Excellent post Robert.You nailed it.This is why I say Reaganomics won't save us like before.It is an entirely different situation.It sounds like Robert has seen the documentary called "Plunder:The Crime of Our Time". I don't know if I agreed with all of it but it shed light on alot of things about the financial meltdown. People in the financial sector saw it coming and profitted greatly from it.We were so lied to before the crash that I can't believe anything I see or hear from our government or the media.President Bush kept saying that the "fundamentals" were solid when in fact they were crumbling.

      Why won't Reaganomics save us? because the taxes, wages and regulations would have to be extremely low to make companies come back.It's not gonna happen.Companies now have record amounts of cash, what good would lowering taxes do?  How much cash do they need?What we need is for our government to reel in the money it sends to other countries, bring our troops home from these wasteful police actions, negotiate tougher free trade agreements(and enforce them)secure our borders with troops if need be(we have more troops on the border of South Korea that our own border) and find ways to cut as much wasteful spending as possible.That's just for starters.We don't need to be the world police anymore or do any more nation building.

       Researcher

[piglett]

 I suspect we will have a high tax, large entitlement state which will redistribute the wealth that is concentrated in the top 10% of Americans, I do not see another way for the remaining 90% to get their hands on the wealth, save govt wealth redistribution.

please tell us exactly what you have done to deserve some other Americans wealth??
they earned it ......rite?   OK so why should you get some? why should i get some ? if i really wanted some i would go back to school get a couple of degree's & make my own
not sit around & try to figure out how to steal some other persons money , that is just plain wrong!!!
 
 
 
piglett 

[Researcher]

please tell us exactly what you have done to deserve some other Americans wealth??
they earned it ......rite?   OK so why should you get some? why should i get some ? if i really wanted some i would go back to school get a couple of degree's & make my own
not sit around & try to figure out how to steal some other persons money , that is just plain wrong!!!
 
 
 
piglett

   Yeah, that is best left to Wall Street and the "Too big to fail" banks and corporations who get bailout money in the billions....from taxpayers.

   Truth is you are correct on the other end of the spectrum as well Piglett. I bet when the government can't print any more of it's worthless money those that are getting government assistance will be the first to riot in the streets. Our government just can't manage it's own finances which is a good reason it needs to be as small as can be tolerated by the citizens.

      Our government has borrowed so much money that the interest payments on it alone are going to be bigger than Social Security, Medicaid or Defense.That's our biggest threat.All of taxpayer money will be going to pay interest payments and the taxpayers will be getting nothing in return.This situation is looming and will be another crisis even worse than the bursting of the real estate bubble.Believe it or not these are the good ol' days!

    Researcher

[Bob_S]

All of taxpayer money will be going to pay interest payments and the taxpayers will be getting nothing in return.

Sure we have!  We got a war in the mid-east that got us cheap affordable gasoline.  Uh, no, wait a minute...   We got a world class education system producing a highly literate skilled employable citizenry... uh, hang on...  dang...    Ah, I got it.  We have a first rate infrastructure ready to compete in the global marketplace!  Aw, crap...   How about an efficient government bureaucracy that quickly responds to the needs of the people?  Hmmm...   nevermind....   

[Researcher]

      But Bob we do have government folks like Anthony Weiner providing us with priceless entertainment!

       Researcher

[piglett]

   Yeah, that is best left to Wall Street and the "Too big to fail" banks and corporations who get bailout money in the billions....from taxpayers.

   Truth is you are correct on the other end of the spectrum as well Piglett. I bet when the government can't print any more of it's worthless money those that are getting government assistance will be the first to riot in the streets. Our government just can't manage it's own finances which is a good reason it needs to be as small as can be tolerated by the citizens.

      Our government has borrowed so much money that the interest payments on it alone are going to be bigger than Social Security, Medicaid or Defense.That's our biggest threat.All of taxpayer money will be going to pay interest payments and the taxpayers will be getting nothing in return.
    Researcher

well I'm sure there was plenty of bribe money going around from those bone heads on wall st. to the fat cats in washington.
 
the gov. is going to get smaller ......fat chance unless we hang most of the bums 
 
oh the tax payers will be getting plenty in return, they will be getting a good hard scr*wing 
 
 
pig
 
 

[Researcher]

well I'm sure there was plenty of bribe money going around from those bone heads on wall st. to the fat cats in washington.
 
the gov. is going to get smaller ......fat chance unless we hang most of the bums 
 
oh the tax payers will be getting plenty in return, they will be getting a good hard scr*wing 
 
 
pig

       I don't see what chioce the government will have but to get smaller.The more jobs and wealth that leaves this country amounts to less taxes being paid.Pretty soon the middle class will be replaced by the emerging poor in this country and those that have money can simply take their wealth and leave.

       Researcher

         

[fathertime]

What a jackassacle speech obozo gave today....the first few softball questions he received were a setup for him to continue his speech...this is like propaganda...i am more likely to believe Pravda than I am obozo.  He was really blaming the republicans for this whole debt ceiling issue...if i were a republican i would be less inclined to work with him after his comments.
lets see if this debt ceiling is the catalyst for the riots were are anxiously awaiting.  Greece is showing us the way!


Fathertime!

[utopiacowboy]

What a jackassacle speech obozo gave today....the first few softball questions he received were a setup for him to continue his speech...this is like propaganda...i am more likely to believe Pravda than I am obozo.  He was really blaming the republicans for this whole debt ceiling issue...if i were a republican i would be less inclined to work with him after his comments.
lets see if this debt ceiling is the catalyst for the riots were are anxiously awaiting.  Greece is showing us the way!


Fathertime!

No chance of it happening here. Americans are idiots who deserve the screwing they are getting. Why else would a guy like Obama bin laden get elected? And I bet dollars to donuts he gets re-elected!

[Researcher]

    I agree.This clown will be the first president in history to get re-elected with unemployment over 7.5%.

               


          Researcher

[Researcher]

       With QE2 coming to an end the government won't be pumping 15 billion dollars a week into the economy.We'll see where things go from here without the propping up of the economy the government has been doing.

     Researcher

[fathertime]

So I guess Obozo is now going to ignore the debt limit and continue spending whatever HE wants to.  If that occurs, I think it is time for congress to cut him off at the knees.  He has already ignored congress (and the American people) in regards to Libya.  He is not a king that can keep making unilateral decisions so his actions can’t be ignored.  The american people are likely going to accept his actions because we are still eating well and borrowing money from somebody, but that could end soon.  I don’t know who the hell is going to loan us money at 1% after what is about to occur.  I guess obozo will soon be seizing private pension fund money and using it to fund his obese govt.  Why not, they already have raided social security, what is the difference now?


Fathertime! 

[Researcher]

      Hey FT, don't forget about ObamaCare that was shoved through into law.

       Researcher

[no comment]

We've just passed the half way point for the 5 year period of 2008 - 2013, which was the time frame for riots in the streets and the subject of this thread.  No sign of riots yet but there is still time.  Should be about 50 pages to the thread by then, but the thread has become an outlet for vague anxiety over the future.  My suggestion is that it's better to act than react.

[Alabamaboy!]

We've just passed the half way point for the 5 year period of 2008 - 2013, which was the time frame for riots in the streets and the subject of this thread.  No sign of riots yet but there is still time.  Should be about 50 pages to the thread by then, but the thread has become an outlet for vague anxiety over the future.  My suggestion is that it's better to act than react.

As Researcher said, QE2 is coming to an end and now you will see the fireworks. Anyone who can use a calculator can see that this is not going to end well for the US if it continues on this path. I for one hope that this thing implodes, then maybe the government will get their [snip] together. We need to make real changes. Not just blab about making changes in the vague distant future.

When this mess began 5 years or so ago, I paid off my existing debt (my house), traded in my gas guzzling luxury SUV for something that cost about 1/3 the price and gets about 3 times the gas mileage. I got rid of toys that I did not need like quads, boat, etc. so as to cut bills associated with gasoline, tags, insurance. The last thing I had on my mind was taking out loans from my business competitors to finance a bloated lifestyle.

But the US Government is too arrogant to operate within its means. They have gigantic balls when it comes to spending our tax money. They have such balls that they cannot even pay their bills, and it does not slow them down, they just call up Visa (debt ceiling) so they can increase their borrowing limit and keep on buying more [snip] that they cannot afford. They don't even invest the money in something useful, they just handed it over to the States to continue with their inefficient wasteful ways, and to grease the financial sector fat cats.

The only way this game will stop is if the debt ceiling is not raised. And they sign a balanced budget amendment to the constitution. If the economy plummets, tough baloney. If there is rioting in the streets, good. There needs to be drastic change or else we are looking at generations of a slow death in my opinion.

[no comment]

Actually I got it wrong in writing that we've just passed the half way point.  A five year period that goes from 2008 to 2013 without including 2013 has us just past the 3 1/2 year mark.  Maybe FT meant to include 2013 with the riots coming from disgruntled supporters of President Obama.


AB, the end of QE2 doesn't signal a plunge into chaos.  There's about one and a half years left on the president's term.  Investors and entrepreneurs have money sitting on the sidelines and a pro business president could change the economy.  Already there are signs that public sector employees are willing to get real and pay for part of their own health care or take pay cuts.  There have been serious budget cuts in NY by a Democrat governor and in NJ & Wisconsin by Republicans, for example.

[Alabamaboy!]

Already there are signs that public sector employees are willing to get real and pay for part of their own health care or take pay cuts.  There have been serious budget cuts in NY by a Democrat governor and in NJ & Wisconsin by Republicans, for example.

The key word in my post was "if". As in if they continue down the same path. But as you pointed out, there is always hope that there will be some major changes which will change the game. It is the only way out of this mess.

I have had some cash saved up to begin another small business to generate income to carry me to an early retirement. I have had the cash for about 4 years now. And I have not opened any other business during these years, because to do so would be suicide. Even the amounts that I have invested in emerging markets have taken about a 10% dump due to the US's poor economic policies which make the whole planet pay the price. So if a small business owner like myself is not willing to take a shot on opening another small venture, I can completely understand why large businesses are hoarding cash. It just does not make any sense to open new businesses in this climate. What kind of business would do well?

As a matter of fact, I am not only not looking to open new business, I am looking to sell out my share of the existing business, due to the bleak potential for profit growth anytime soon, and the huge potential for massive losses within a year or so. I know a lot of other guys who have already cashed out their chips rather than stay on as a passenger on the Titantic.

[fathertime]

Actually I got it wrong in writing that we've just passed the half way point.  A five year period that goes from 2008 to 2013 without including 2013 has us just past the 3 1/2 year mark.  Maybe FT meant to include 2013 with the riots coming from disgruntled supporters of President Obama.


 

If the USA does not have some riots by the end of 2013 I will be wrong.  I think we should already be in the streets.  Now the rumor is that Obozo is going to just tell congress to fxck off once again and is going to grant amnesty to many/all the illegals.  Congress can't/won't stop him, once all the illegals are granted citizenship then the balance of power will be permanently swayed.  Hey it is our own damn fault, but life goes on, at least for now.

Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

We saw such a beautiful fireworks display this evening on the nation's birthday, it would be a shame if the society were destroyed in the next few years.  All those fireworks were different colors and they got along fine, lets see how the peoples do with that in the next couple years! 


Fathertime! 

[Alabamaboy!]

Today's news shows only 18,000 new jobs created in June. And that was after only 25K in May. Unemployment now is at 9.2%. The government is bleeding jobs right now as I predicted due to lack of tax money coming in and attempts at trimming costs. And I predict it will get much worse before it gets better because the States will not have Uncle Sam to prop them up. Already the States are sharpening their axes for the impending bloodbath, as they very well should. I think we will see unemployment above 10% before it starts coming down.

I see businesses that have been around a long time shutting their doors. And virtually no new businesses to take their place. I see microbusinesses such as: the "burrito lady" who comes to the offices, the mobile car wash guy, the corner hotdog vendor, the lawn service guys, all disappearing. Several of my employees abandoning their homes because the husband lost their jobs, moving back in with other relatives. Nobody is talking about the latest movie they have seen at the cinema. Because nobody is going. Nobody sharing vacation photos.

These are very strange times.