Riots in the streets 2008-2013 style.

[fathertime]

You would probably argue that we need traffic signals, because otherwise people would just smash right into each other. Yet in the UK they're removing traffic signals because in many cases the traffic signals cause more accidents than having none at all. Why? Because people can take care of themselves just fine.

You are mistaken.
I would argue that a traffic signal is the most efficient way to move lots of cars in the shortest period of time. 
Whenever a traffic signal goes out on a major street around here, the traffic is backed up for blocks. 


Fathertime!

[william3rd]

That is absolutely false. That is the culture of fear talking, not reality.

1. The vast, vast majority of people are very decent people and won't ever try to harm someone, much less shoot someone, of their own volition.
2. People who do commit violent crime rarely care about the consequences. They are impassioned, drunk, on drugs, in a bad spot, or just plain don't give a damn.
3. Cops rarely arrive at the scene of a violent crime until well after the crime has been committed.
4. When they actually do get there, there is generally little or nothing they can do.

And that's assuming they actually are there to help and do their job properly. I live near and occasionally practice in a county that was rated as having the most corrupt police in the US. Not so great.

Here's a story I have about how great cops are: I get mom a restraining order against crazy husband who is violent and very clearly stated his intentions of running away with their kids if he ever got his hands on them. Order clearly states he's not to come within 500 feet of her house or the children's school and he is not to see the kids. He shows up at her door and she calls the cops. They come, see the order, tell her she's not supposed to have telephone contact with him, let him in the house, and help him gain custody of the children. He then promptly runs off. Did find him eventually, with no help from the police. Police response was "oops, sorry."

So one anecdotal tale of a situation says the police are overpaid? Sounds like the order was not properly done and was thus ineffective. That is the most common reason for the non enforcement of a restraining order (in my experience). . . . . Somehow I  am picturing some bearded barefoot hillbilly with a badge on his overalls who cant read an order holding the paper upside down.

My daughter is going to the funeral of that Riverside officer this weekend. I wont bother to share your drivel with her or her boyfriend (a sheriff). In my opinion, he is far from overpaid working with the gang unit.

You should protest these overpaid individuals. If you have a fire, put it out by yourself. And should you be robbed or a gang push you and your girlfriend around at the mall or take your car, you can handle it all by yourself. And don't forget the paramedics- they are overpaid too. So when these criminals put a bullet in you (which happens far more frequently than you seem to realize or admit), you can drive yourself to the hospital where the overpaid nurses will have to patch you up (over your complaints about the high price of salaries and medical expenses, I am sure). Hell, protest them as  well. Put a bandaid over the hole and take two aspirin instead.

[Alabamaboy!]

This is what is really happening. And it is happening very, very fast.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/11/12/gergen.america.economy/index.html

Just has Bush made us look foolish in the world's eyes with his stupidity regarding military decisions, this president is doing equally bad with economic policy.

These mistakes that Obama is making though are much greater in my opinion because in reality, we will always have the biggest military and will be able to protect ourselves to a certain degree.

But these huge mistakes with economic policy are beginning to make us irrelevant in the world market. China is holding all the cards. Brazil and other SA countries are up and coming players with their houses in order. We are starting to look like a bunch of arrogant hillbillies.

How do we have the balls to go to these meetings and make demands from China when we are up to our ears in debt with them? That is crazy.

And we talk about China manipulating currency? The US is the biggest one doing that sort of thing. It is the goal of this administration to repay debt with weak dollars. And to stimulate exports. So who is the manipulator again?

[william3rd]

This is what is really happening. And it is happening very, very fast.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/11/12/gergen.america.economy/index.html

Just has Bush made us look foolish in the world's eyes with his stupidity regarding military decisions, this president is doing equally bad with economic policy.

These mistakes that Obama is making though are much greater in my opinion because in reality, we will always have the biggest military and will be able to protect ourselves to a certain degree.

But these huge mistakes with economic policy are beginning to make us irrelevant in the world market. China is holding all the cards. Brazil and other SA countries are up and coming players with their houses in order. We are starting to look like a bunch of arrogant hillbillies.

How do we have the balls to go to these meetings and make demands from China when we are up to our ears in debt with them? That is crazy.

And we talk about China manipulating currency? The US is the biggest one doing that sort of thing. It is the goal of this administration to repay debt with weak dollars. And to stimulate exports. So who is the manipulator again?

damn!!! I actually agree with AB on something.  The US spends wayyy too much time whining these days- therse days being defined as the last 20 years. When I sent my money to Thailand, the baht was at 35. Now it is at 29. I recall pesos at twice what they are now  when I went to Colombia a few years back. I havent checked grivna or rubles lately. 

[piglett]

damn!!! I actually agree with AB on something.  When I sent my money to Thailand, the baht was at 35. Now it is at 29. I recall pesos at twice what they are now  when I went to Colombia a few years back. I havent checked grivna or rubles lately. 

yup the Philippine peso was 48 to 1 now it's only 43 to 1 & there is talk in the PI that it will go to 40 to 1.


pig

[jm21-2]

So one anecdotal tale of a situation says the police are overpaid? Sounds like the order was not properly done and was thus ineffective. That is the most common reason for the non enforcement of a restraining order (in my experience). . . . . Somehow I  am picturing some bearded barefoot hillbilly with a badge on his overalls who cant read an order holding the paper upside down.

My daughter is going to the funeral of that Riverside officer this weekend. I wont bother to share your drivel with her or her boyfriend (a sheriff). In my opinion, he is far from overpaid working with the gang unit.

You should protest these overpaid individuals. If you have a fire, put it out by yourself. And should you be robbed or a gang push you and your girlfriend around at the mall or take your car, you can handle it all by yourself. And don't forget the paramedics- they are overpaid too. So when these criminals put a bullet in you (which happens far more frequently than you seem to realize or admit), you can drive yourself to the hospital where the overpaid nurses will have to patch you up (over your complaints about the high price of salaries and medical expenses, I am sure). Hell, protest them as  well. Put a bandaid over the hole and take two aspirin instead.

Never said anything about nurses or paramedics did I? ER nurses in particular have one of the most stressful jobs I can think of and don't appear to be overpaid. There are also plenty of non-government nurses. These are people who are trained well in a field that most people don't have a clue about and are usually quite bright. They help protect us from realistic dangers that we would not be able to help ourselves with: heart attacks, disease, accidents, and even help victims of crime recover. Kudos to them.

That is completely different from cops who for the most part don't have much in the way of training or skills, and those that they have are not too different from the general population. While you certainly can't perform open-heart surgery on yourself, most people are just as capable of wielding a gun and protecting themselves. Considering how late cops are to arrive at the scene, someone worried about such things should be prepared to defend themselves anyways.

Now the example given of being killed by a stranger. There were 5 murders per 100,000 people last year. About 3/4ths of murders are done by people who know the victim. So that's about 1.25 stranger-murders per 100,000 people. Oh, I'm really quaking in my boots. And I'd put good money that most stranger-murders are done in poor urban areas. I'm perfectly fine handling that almost non-existent risk on my own. Assuming I live 60 more years that means I have something around a .00075% chance.

I was reading an article a while back that made a very convincing argument that legalizing abortion was one of the largest factors in reducing crime. Legalizing all drugs would reduce crime by a [snip]load. Reducing the number of traffic laws would allow cops to focus on things that actually matter. Plenty of ways we can reduce crime while at the same time reducing our police force.

Restraining orders are reviewed by a judge here. Only seen one that wasn't properly filled out that got signed, and it was close enough that it could do its job.

[Researcher]

 
"most people are just as capable of wielding a gun and protecting themselves" and allowing passengers to carry guns on airplanes? JM you certainly live in a different world than myself.The next time you are on a plane take a good look around you and think about that idea again.It doesn't make sense.

  And legalizing drugs?It depends on which ones.I don't think that all drugs should be legalized just to cut down on the prison population.


  Researcher

[william3rd]

So Jm only gots hard ons for police and fire. . . . . did they turn you down or something?

So go put your own fires out and dont bother calling the police when your kids are missing or injured. You can handle it all by yourself and do a much better job I am sure.

Tell your opinions to those who have lost loved ones, or perhaps to the 9/11 families as well. . . . . . somehow I have a feeling you might need a police officer to save your ass because I dont think it would be pretty.

[Researcher]

  Also,I don't have a problem with airport security or even with taking my shoes off.I just think,as I go through the line, maybe next time someone will try to setoff a bra bomb.Just think of the security measures for that.It might make waiting in the security line more interesting!!!


  Researcher

[fathertime]

Now the example given of being killed by a stranger. There were 5 murders per 100,000 people last year. About 3/4ths of murders are done by people who know the victim. So that's about 1.25 stranger-murders per 100,000 people. Oh, I'm really quaking in my boots. And I'd put good money that most stranger-murders are done in poor urban areas. I'm perfectly fine handling that almost non-existent risk on my own. Assuming I live 60 more years that means I have something around a .00075% chance.

So it sounds like the police are doing a pretty good job of deterring murders.  Is that what you point is?

What do you think the murder rate would be if there were no police? I bet you it would be a lot higher. 

Fathertime!

[fathertime]

This is what is really happening. And it is happening very, very fast.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/11/12/gergen.america.economy/index.html

Just has Bush made us look foolish in the world's eyes with his stupidity regarding military decisions, this president is doing equally bad with economic policy.

These mistakes that Obama is making though are much greater in my opinion because in reality, we will always have the biggest military and will be able to protect ourselves to a certain degree.

But these huge mistakes with economic policy are beginning to make us irrelevant in the world market. China is holding all the cards. Brazil and other SA countries are up and coming players with their houses in order. We are starting to look like a bunch of arrogant hillbillies.

How do we have the balls to go to these meetings and make demands from China when we are up to our ears in debt with them? That is crazy.

And we talk about China manipulating currency? The US is the biggest one doing that sort of thing. It is the goal of this administration to repay debt with weak dollars. And to stimulate exports. So who is the manipulator again?

Thanks for posting this AB!

We are in NO position to make demands from China.  They are the ones producing practically everything for us, including much of the fertilizer for our crops.  It is incredible and disgusting how dependent we are on them now.  We have borrowed nearly 1 Trillion dollars from the citizens of their country.  Really they can't be blamed for any of this. As a nation, they are sacrificing more than we are.  They also have a lot of poor that work for very little money, but that has always been the case, pretty soon we may be in a similar position in that regard.

Fathertime!

[jm21-2]

So Jm only gots hard ons for police and fire. . . . . did they turn you down or something?

So go put your own fires out and dont bother calling the police when your kids are missing or injured. You can handle it all by yourself and do a much better job I am sure.

Tell your opinions to those who have lost loved ones, or perhaps to the 9/11 families as well. . . . . . somehow I have a feeling you might need a police officer to save your ass because I dont think it would be pretty.

I'd be happy to opt-out if I could. The problem is you can't. Cops and firemen because they don't do much good and they're grossly over-compensated. EDIT: There are also plenty of alternatives that are less costly (insurance, neighborhood watch programs, volunteer fire departments, better proliferation of fire hydrants and hoses, etc).

Don't see any difference between having a family member die on 9/11 and a family member dying during their commute.

Researcher,

Being able to carry knives, mace, etc., at least would be nice. TSA security measures are just reactionary and a colossal waste of time and money. Can't wait until the butthole bomber so that we can be asked to bend over to the sound of a plastic glove snapping.

FT,

Past a certain fairly minimal point it doesn't seem like a larger police force has noticeable deterrent effect. Murder rates are low because people have no desire to kill each other and in moderately prosperous countries almost never have a reason to do so.

[Ray]

Don't see any difference between having a family member die on 9/11 and a family member dying during their commute.

 

Here, let me see if I can clear it up for your feeble little mind.

Dying during a commute is considered an ACCIDENT.

Dying during a radical jihadist Muslim attack on 9/11 was no accident bozo! IT WAS MURDER!

There, does that clarify things for your feeble little mind? No, I didn’t think so…

Ray

[fathertime]

Well I saw this little video on utube today and thought it did a pretty good job explaining what the hell is going on and how corrupt things have become. 

It is incredible that the govt. is trying to create inflation when so many people are having difficultly affording grocery items at their current price!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k





Fathertime!

[jm21-2]

Here, let me see if I can clear it up for your feeble little mind.

Dying during a commute is considered an ACCIDENT.

Dying during a radical jihadist Muslim attack on 9/11 was no accident bozo! IT WAS MURDER!

There, does that clarify things for your feeble little mind? No, I didn’t think so…

Ray

Dead=Dead. I don't understand why people would grieve more. Someone being murdered doesn't make them twice or three times as dead.

FT,

As far as deterrence, we spend a lot of money on our police force and lock up far more people than other countries. Yet our murder rate is quite high compared to most other developed countries. We're at 5 per 100,000 total. To put that in perspective, Ukraine is at 7. Japan, Singapore, and HK are at a bit under .5. Chile is 1.7. India is 2.8. So I guess Japan, Singapore, and HK spend about 10 times as much on their budget on police and Ukraine spends roughly the same as the US?

[fathertime]

FT,

As far as deterrence, we spend a lot of money on our police force and lock up far more people than other countries. Yet our murder rate is quite high compared to most other developed countries. We're at 5 per 100,000 total. To put that in perspective, Ukraine is at 7. Japan, Singapore, and HK are at a bit under .5. Chile is 1.7. India is 2.8. So I guess Japan, Singapore, and HK spend about 10 times as much on their budget on police and Ukraine spends roughly the same as the US?

Yes yes jim, I'm sure crime would go down, if we fired all the police departments and left the policing to neighborhood watch groups.  
The subject is just a little too ridiculous to even debate, but if you can find some other posters that agree with you and they (or you) can make a legit case for disbanding the police departments, then I would be happy to continue the discussion. 

Fathertime! 

[robert angel]

Of all the cities in the world, New Orleans, Louisiana has the third highest murder rate on the planet.

While their police force has a long record of corruption, I don't think reducing, never mind eliminating the police presence there, would bring greater peace and order.

Last time I checked, the USA also has the highest percentage of it's citizenry imprisoned of any nation.

A lot of those prisoners are serving sentences for drug possession/addiction related crimes, for which there are more often than not, little meaningful attempts of drug rehabilitation inside the prison walls.

In some states, we have long, mandatory jail sentences for certain offenses, even if it is a first offense in which no violent crime was committed and the likelihood of the convicted criminal repeating is exceedingly low.

I think in Alasaka, you can (or could) grow up to an ounce of marijuana for personal consumption, while in my state, if you're caught with an ounce, it's a felony charge, with an intent to distribute charge (trafficking) almost always added on.

Meanwhile, one of the fastest growing sectors of the US economy is the building of more and more prisons than ever before and having private contractors not only build them, but also running the day to day operations.

I am not condoning opening up the jail gates and letting all drug offenders walk out freely, but I think that there are clearly some real issues with the system as it is presently.

[Researcher]

Researcher,

Being able to carry knives, mace, etc., at least would be nice. TSA security measures are just reactionary and a colossal waste of time and money. Can't wait until the butthole bomber so that we can be asked to bend over to the sound of a plastic glove snapping.

       Being able to carry any weapon on a plane isn't a good idea.Terrorists will be able to carry the same.The difference between is that most of them don't mind blowing themselves up to kill others.Someone like that has a definite advantage over those of us that would like to keep living.

  Researcher

[Ray]

A lot of those prisoners are serving sentences for drug possession/addiction related crimes

Good!

there are more often than not, little meaningful attempts of drug rehabilitation inside the prison walls.

Who cares?

In some states, we have long, mandatory jail sentences for certain offenses

Good!

in my state, if you're caught with an ounce, it's a felony charge

Good!

[Alabamaboy!]

Ray: "Good? Who cares?" That is why your State is beyond bankrupt.

[fathertime]

       Being able to carry any weapon on a plane isn't a good idea.Terrorists will be able to carry the same.The difference between is that most of them don't mind blowing themselves up to kill others.Someone like that has a definite advantage over those of us that would like to keep living.

  Researcher

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Researcher on this one.  If we were all allowed to carry weapons on the flights, that would just be inviting terrorists to do a lot of killing.  8-10 Well placed and coordinated terrorists could do a whole lot of damage on a flight before the other armed passengers would be able to mount any sort of comeback.  Who the hell wants to fly if we were going to be that vulnerable.  Sorry Jim, there will be no guns on airplanes,  on the streets perhaps, but not on airplanes.

Fathertime!

[william3rd]

Ray: "Good? Who cares?" That is why your State is beyond bankrupt.

Oh GAWD - here he goes again .

 My state too, chump, before you ask. And I posted here before you did. Stalker!!!

And the salaries of police and fire have what bearing on the the state? NONE.

You are posting on this thread merely to annoy your betters. I would tell you to go back to your sandbox but you would probably start eating the kitty litter again. . . . . .

In an effort to stay out of yet another flame war, I will not reply to your expected inane response. Doesnt mean you win anything- just means I will bite my tongue. . . .

[piglett]

boys, boys, boys, can't we all just get along?

some of you sound like you woke up on the wrong side of the keyboard 


pig

[Alabamaboy!]

Oh GAWD - here he goes again .

 My state too, chump, before you ask. And I posted here before you did. Stalker!!!

And the salaries of police and fire have what bearing on the the state? NONE.

You are posting on this thread merely to annoy your betters. I would tell you to go back to your sandbox but you would probably start eating the kitty litter again. . . . . .

In an effort to stay out of yet another flame war, I will not reply to your expected inane response. Doesnt mean you win anything- just means I will bite my tongue. . . .

I was the #5 poster on this thread. Granted you were #3 I believe, but look at what you wrote.....classic as usual. The comment I was referring to by Ray (not your post) was a normal response. And Ray was talking about prisons, not fire and police departments.  When the people are saying "good, who cares?, etc." when their state is in the worst shape financially, by far, that is basically the reason they are in that situation. Is there a problem saying that? It is the truth.

And it is funny how you say you will not respond to things with name calling and stupidity, in the exact same post that you are doing that exact thing.

Just relax, say what you want and I will do the same. I am not going to be making childish remarks to you guys anymore because it is a fruitless endeavor. I was just doing so to reflect back what you were doing so maybe you would stop, but as you can see that strategy has not worked.

Let's have a little bet, and I am willing to let our mutual friend Fathertime be the judge and jury. How about the first one that makes a personal attack or uses stupid graphics against the other pays the guy $1,000? I'm willing to make the same wager with Ray if he is reading this.

I just want to post here without being harassed on every single point I make.

[El Escéptico]

The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge.