pulling the trigger

[jm21-2]

So, finally got everything i needed from her late last week. Have everything done but printing out some passport sized photos.

She has been living in Australia for about two months now and is having a hell of a time finding work. She went from being a software engineer to sorting dishes at a restaurant and getting paid less than minimum wage under the table. She's putting up with it because Australia has a very good unemployment/welfare system and when she becomes eligible for it in two years she basically she has a guaranteed income so long as she is making an effort to look for work. She is very reluctant to give that up, especially considering she spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $7k getting the visa.

She told me one night basically that she is becoming more and more worried about finding decent work where I live and we are both coming to the realization it may be impossible for her to find a decent job here. I was pretty optimistic at first but not so much now. She's also pretty firmly convinced that America's future is very dim compared to Australia and she wants to live in Australia. That's aside from really hating the weather here. In her view if she gives up Australia for the US she's making a big sacrifice for me and I need to support her well here.

So we're coming to the realization that if she comes here she'll probably be a housewife. I really don't mind the idea too much on a personal level, but on a legal level that gives me nightmares. For those who don't know, I'm a divorce attorney and having a dependent spouse in my state is horrible if you ever get divorced. So, getting a little nervous now and wondering if I'm doing the right thing. I really love the girl but I'd stand to lose a lot if things don't work out. Kind of wondering whether I sampled the local (employed) dating pool enough.

[fathertime]

Christ Jim,

You are clearly fighting an uphill battle on a couple fronts. 

Number one: the weather in seattle is going to suddenly change, and if she is verbalizing that to be a major issue than you need to move which maybe you don't want to do and certainly don't want that to be a condition set by her before marriage

Number two:  In your head you are already planning 10 years ahead, you are planning for marriage, kids, divorce, alimony, child support.   You are a divorce attorney, you know it is an irritant, but not THAT big a deal.  It pisses me off that I pay money every month for basically nothing, but I don't regret the previous marriage or kids, it is not that big a deal.   

Number three:  The job front may never be that good for her here and that fact that she is verbalizing that she is looking to get on unemployment/welfare in two years, is not a real good thing, IMO. 

With such a tenuous relationship, it seems very clear that you should be keeping your options open both here and abroad.  Don't take offense, I'm just shooting from the hip here jimbo, i'm home sick today and smell like a litterbox.
Fathertime!

[jm21-2]

I've got a house and business, so not going to move anytime soon. I think she'll adjust to the weather here (though probably a big heating bill the first couple years). Not too worried about that.

I think about divorce as it's my job, and I like to plan things out at least 10-20 years ahead. Alimony is very significant here when there's a dependent spouse involved (though CA and a few other states seem worse). It's more rehabilitative support here so more money up-front, which means that if the marriage was pretty lengthy and she was dependent then the first 3-5 years after the divorce are hell. A lot of guys end up living out of trailers even when they make close to six digits (though much of that is due to having too much debt). I recently saw a case from CA where the guy was paying out over 2/3 of his income.

Part of her decision to move to Australia was the huge welfare benefits they pay out. Not just unemployment but they also give women a bonus for having a baby, help with daycare costs, huge tax benefits for having children, and a bunch of other benefits. It really is a very large amount of money to give up. She worries a lot about how expensive it is to raise children so it's a big deal for her. Her dream is to retire early and in Australia it doesn't appear to be too hard. So basically in Australia if she can't find a good job she doesn't need to work, and since she's giving that up she'd expect to be able to stay at home if she can't find a job she likes here. I don't think that's unreasonable and I've always liked the idea of having a housewife on a personal level, but under WA law it puts you in a dangerous position.

[Capstone]

jm,

I think that you are over analyzing and worrying about things that may or may not ever come to fruition way too much. Just think about what you said concerning worrying about whether or not you have sampled the local dating pool enough - I think that you would have to worry about getting divorced and taken to the cleaners a hell of lot more had you actually done that and acted upon it than you do now.

But if you do want to analyze things so much then you need to ask yourself what would your girl most likely do if you did happen to divorce? I can tell you that I have absolutely no doubt that in my case the first thing that my wife would do would be to pack up and move back to China. Her focus would not be on what she could do to screw me or get out of me but rather she would feel that since we were no longer married then there would be absolutely no reason for her to stay in the US - the only reason that she is here is because of me, she would much rather be living in China than the US.

With all that being said, it is normal to get cold feet when the time comes to pull the trigger on the visa process and marriage - I admit that I did a bit. But if you are having very strong feelings that you may regret pulling the trigger then I would recommend delaying the process a bit and taking another trip to see your girl before making a final decision. In the end though if you ever plan to marry anyone, either from this country or another, then there is going to come a time in which you will have to throw caution to the wind and take a leap of faith because nothing is ever absolute in this life.

[Henry]

She wants to live on welfare. That sounds like extremely bad news to me. But what do I know?! Also she says "she's making a big sacrifice for me and I need to support her well here. " That is too bad she feels like that. I thought she was your wife/fiancee??? She should be willing to move to be with you regardless. And working under the table?!

Oh well. So much for China.

[Capstone]

She wants to live on welfare. That sounds like extremely bad news to me. But what do I know?! Also she says "she's making a big sacrifice for me and I need to support her well here. " That is too bad she feels like that. I thought she was your wife/fiancee??? She should be willing to move to be with you regardless. And working under the table?!

Oh well. So much for China.

She is from Taiwan, not China.

In all fairness, I really don't think that jm meant that it is her intent to not work and instead live off of welfare but rather that Australia offers good benefits for those with children and also that if she ever could not find work then they also offer good unemployment benefits. As far as her working under the table its not like she wants to but that is the only job that she can currently find - she is authorized to work there legally. Hell, I worked plenty of jobs under the table in my younger days while I was in high school & college.

[michaelb]

Looks to me like she's more in love with Australia than she is with you. Tell her to have a good time there. Without you.

[jm21-2]

We were both counting on her working her after she came here, at least until we have children. But the prospects look dimmer and dimmer of that happening. So, I was expecting to support her for 6-12 months but now it's looking like potentially forever. That's a big shift.

She is working the job because it's the only thing she can find. I think that a professional who is willing to work a fairly grueling job (she is a little woman moving some very large dishes/pots/etc at a big dim sum restaurant) that pays far less than minimum wage speaks pretty highly of her character and work ethic. I do not know many people like that.

michaelb,

She really likes Australia and she spent a lot of time and money on her visa (and with changes in Australia's immigration laws probably won't get another chance). She'd rather I move to Australia. I can tell her "are you choosing Australia over me?" But she could just as easily say I'm choosing WA over her. She just wants me to realize she's making a sacrifice and so I need to support her and won't make her do a job she doesn't like so we have more income.

[Ray]

Holy Shyt Man!

It’s time to shyt or get off the pot. Either marry the woman or dump her and hide in the corner trembling in fear of getting burned in a divorce…Sheesh!

Why don’t you do what another attorney member did…hire your wife to work in your office, at least until the Democrats get kicked out of office and we go back to a capitalist system and the jobs begin to come back so she can work in her field?

Are you sure she doesn’t have another “boyfriend” in Australia??   

Ray

[z_k_g]

jm,

After following your saga for some months now, I'll chime in with my opinion.

----Get married to the chick!!----

I read your posts here, you are over analyzing dude.

If all the things you wrote about her in your travel reports are accurate, she is a keeper.

I would have add, this woman seems like an honest, sincere person that loves you.  She will go back to Aussieland if you guys break up!  She will not stay in the US for any reason whatsoever to collect on alimony payments!!!!

There are no guarantees in life, but I think this one is a good bet.  Let it ride!!

Get hitched!  

Zulu

[jm21-2]

I'll almost certainly end up filing, just that last step is a PITA for me. Especially with not making much last month.

I am not sure about working with your spouse. It seems to go south sometimes. Maybe if I started working from home.

[z_k_g]

I am not sure about working with your spouse. It seems to go south sometimes. Maybe if I started working from home.

jm,

I worked with my spouse for 10 years, we ran one of the largest companies in the state.  We did very well financially, but relationship wise, it was a complete failure.

To make a long story short, and its a very long story, the main issue, at least in my case, was separating business and personal issues, conflicts, decisions, etc. 

Its not trivial.

If you are forced to do it, make is very very short term.

Working together can kill a healthy relationship, I got 10 years to prove it!

Just my experience.

Zulu

[Henry]

jm,

After following your saga for some months now, I'll chime in with my opinion.

----Get married to the chick!!----

I read your posts here, you are over analyzing dude.

If all the things you wrote about her in your travel reports are accurate, she is a keeper.

I would have add, this woman seems like an honest, sincere person that loves you.  She will go back to Aussieland if you guys break up!  She will not stay in the US for any reason whatsoever to collect on alimony payments!!!!

There are no guarantees in life, but I think this one is a good bet.  Let it ride!!

Get hitched! 

Zulu

Doesnt she just have to tell the state of Wash where to forward the money?

[robert angel]

Since we're already discussing the divorce before the marriage to an extent here, I'll share my wonderful experience there on this post. Maybe it'll help someone.

Personally, from what I can read from Jm's posts and they're somewhat conflicting to me anyways, this gal seems pretty darn good--he's just worrying over any and every possible eventuality. He sounds like a lawyer or something! And as my father, former chairman of the American Bar Association, used to say "If you're acting as your own lawyer, you have a fool for a client".

A whole lot of wives go into a divorce  and for pride and other reasons, tell their husband at first "I don't want anything'--Myself, I just wanted the minimal--ie split the essentials--a bed, forks and spoons, pots and pans, sell the house, etc.

Inevitably, between lawyers and the woman's friends, that attitude changes after the guy moves out (which is often against the lawyer's advice, but advised by a marriage counselor if one's involved) and before you know it, the woman has the house, half the retirement, investments and a ton of other material stuff.

My ex initially told me she wanted nothing, knowing I'd pay for whatever the kids needed.

Although I got a little of 15 years worth of home equity, I basically left that house (before the mediaton and divorce) with a TV cabinet (no TV though) a tooth brush and the most rudimentary--the few worst pots and pans, which I threw away. I had to pay a lazy, over priced lawyer and exorbitant fee and build from scratch a 'home' for my two children and I--from beds, linens, curtains, to kitchen items, tooth brushes for the kids, on and on.

After the divorce, I didn't get anything more. If I had insisted on staying in the house until the divorce was legal, it might have been different. My lawyer came highly recommended, but in reality, he was wayyy past his prime, riding on past laurels and letting his paras and junior partner do the tough stuff, while he read Travel and Leisure magazine, making $300+ an hour. He basically showed up for mediation and the court date/s.

She got the house, 99.9% of it's contents and a prime acre of land backing up to a nature preserve.

The women start singing one tune, but very often end up singing a very different one after a while indeed. I think it's best to get a good lawyer--think smart and fast and get the whole thing over as soon as possible.

Jm--you seem increasingly disillusioned with your work as an attorney--saying how it's a real PITA--can't you parlay that private practice maybe into a progressive firm as a junior partner or find a different way to practice w/o giving up all those years of law school and the expense involved? You mentioned doing basic legal work overseas--are you set up to be able to do that?

Oh--Jm---you mentioned not being overly materialistic a while back and willing to shift gears into another line work in a different country. If you do--let me know what you will take in cash for your BMW, sail boat and house!--ha ha.

Good luck man--you have some thinking yet to do, but don't over analyze things to the point where some common sense and gut instinct things are not paid sufficient attention.


Again, good luck, guy...

[Dave H]

Are you sure she doesn’t have another “boyfriend” in Australia??   

Ray

Hey Ray,

Could be...it would be easy to get one if she wants to stay in Oz!

Dave

[throwawaydad]

jm:

Lots of good advice here...but two things come to mind.

Are you "over-thinking"?  Don't forget the first four letters of the word Analysis!  Regardless, this journey we undertake is full of pitfalls and minefields.  But sometimes we become our own worst enemies.

But don't forget...if she's legit (and it sounds like she is), I can GUARANTEE you she's getting the same heebie-jeebies herself, for many of the same reasons, so she has skin in the game as well.

But You are EXPERT at the WA system, and your concerns CANNOT be denied.

But there's something that gives me pause...let me try to explain it the best I can.  The concept of China entering the markets as a Super Power is not some bull sh1t, flash-in-the-pan anomaly.  For better or worse, they're here to stay, and they will be a force to be reckoned with.  Setting politics aside, I'm concerned about her inability to secure legitimate employment.  I fully understand the challenges we face in this POS economy, but based on your description, companies should be stumbling over themselves to recruit her for their foray into China.

A foreign National, with in-depth knowledge of both culture and language, with extensive technology experience to boot?  Assuming she has the legal ability to work in Aus, how about for a U.S.-Based company?

If/when she comes to the U.S. (and receives the proper documentation for work / think a company-sponsored H1B), think about the companies that would give their left nut for her talent.

Goldman Sachs / San Fran
McDonalds / Chicago

That's just two examples, naturally there are more.  What would YOU think if say, McDonalds offered her $150K to operate out of Oakbrook and commute to China to oversee Technology issues?

If what you say about her is true, she sounds like she's a pretty smart Woman with an excellent work ethic.  What she doesn't know about technology, she can learn.

I don't care how smart anyone is, no one can trump an educated National of any society when it comes to language and culture.  These are not things you learn, these are things you LIVE.

I think the BOTH of you need to have a face-to-face about this matter, with your clothes on.

I think you need to get on an airplane, and soon.  You better get your azz in gear, Dude.  Find the time.  The stakes are TOO high...here are your options:

1. Happy Wife / Happy Life
2. Potentially mirroring some of your clients' experiences.

Choose your poison.

[jm21-2]

Robert,

I agree with much of what you are saying. There is a huge amount of influence from a woman's friends when she goes into a divorce. Few women seem able to withstand it. And with this age of forums and facebook things will get far worse.

I am thinking about different ways I can change my practice to lower the stress level and make it a bit easier to take time off. The problem is that it can be difficult for people to take you seriously without an office and receptionist (pretty big costs). Then again, if I cut out the office lease, receptionist, and the ridiculously priced business landlines I'd only have to bill (and get paid for) about 20 hours per month to live decently.

I have seen some paralegals offering to do the work for uncontested divorces on the Seattle Craigslist for $400. If I was working in Asia I could offer that price, be able to give legal advice, and be able to do evening appointments due to the time difference. It's maybe 2-3 hours worth of work and could all be done online/long distance.

I'd like to test some of these ideas but when you've got a mortgage, moorage, and student loans every month it's a big risk to dramatically change your business structure.

Throwaway Dad,

I figured the same as you do regarding jobs, but I talked with my dad about it (he was a director for a government agency and employed several IT people and programmers) and he didn't think the prospects were very good. The Chinese style of programming is so different from the US style of programming that they are pretty incompatible. He had hired a Chinese programmer who was a great employee, but when he left the other programmers couldn't understand his work at all and had to completely re-do everything.

In any case, she doesn't really want to do a high stress corporate job anymore. She has good work ethic but doesn't think the stress is worth the extra dough. I can completely understand her on that count. Especially here in the US where blue collar workers reap huge benefits from protectionist regulations while white collar workers get nothing.

[tessbrittain]

Why don’t you do what another attorney member did…hire your wife to work in your office

Hey Ray, are you talking about us :-)

Yes, working together worked out great for us...But you know, some people can't take it having to be together 24 hrs a day....

To Jm,

You  worry so much.... so many negative things in your mind..... with your kind of thinking, you are better off single :-) Enjoy life and stop worrying. You can only do so much.

[Ray]

Hey Ray, are you talking about us :-)

Yes, working together worked out great for us...But you know, some people can't take it having to be together 24 hrs a day....

Hi Tess!

Yes, I was thinking of you and Stephen. Are you guys still working together after all of these years? Good for you!

I know that my wife and I could definitely stand to be together 24 hours a day. She's my best buddy and we do almost everything together.

Say hi to Stephen for me. We miss you guys posting here!

Ray

[Jeff S]

Hey Tess - Good to see you posting again. You still putting up with Stephen? See Filipinas really are resiliant.

Time for another DimSum run? I have a new place that's killer!

- Jeff

[tessbrittain]

Hi Ray,

Stephen can't live without me :-) We actually make more money working together.

We haven't been down to San Diego, we need to get together sometime soon. Also we are going on our 10th yr. just like you and Migs. Time goes so fast when you are enjoying life.

Hi Jeff,

Yes, it's time for some Dimsum.
Maybe sometime in September. I will drop u a line.

Tess

[Dave H]

Hey Tess,

That is great to hear! I don't think that there is a woman alive who can handle me for 24 hours in a straight! God Bless my wife...she sure tries!    I think we need a bigger house so my wife can lock me in my dungeon...er library, music/computer room. 

Dave

[jm21-2]

Mailed off the petition Friday. Still have some worries but I suppose that will never cease.

[robert angel]

Jm-21,

When you stop worrying, then you really have something to worry about.

Balance. Religious or not, the 'serenity prayer' has wisdom within it.

[throwawaydad]

Jm-21,

When you stop worrying, then you really have something to worry about.

Balance. Religious or not, the 'serenity prayer' has wisdom within it.

You mean this Serenity Prayer, right Robert?


Grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

the Courage to change the things I cannot accept,

and the Wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.