Cost to live in SE Asia

[Jeff S]

My father lives well in Mexico in a decent sized resort city Mazatlan, for less than $1000 a month, and that includes a 3 bedroom private home with air conditioning, high speed internet and a maid once a week who does his dishes, laundry and cleaning. He likes to cook, so has very little eating-out expenses, and is not much into entertainment, but has a car and insurance and such.

I can't imagine you can't live equivalent in any 3rd world country for this kind of $, especially not in the rural PI or any non-city environment in SE Asia. Based on my fairly limited experiences in China (small cities,) you could do great on about double that, but as their economy improves, you might have to continue moving to more and more remote areas. I'd guess that $1000 would be plenty in the sticks.

[Bob_S]

Are you guys familiar with "Jingle Mail"?  The idea that when a Mortgagee can no longer make the payments, they "put the keys in the envelope" and mail them to the bank.
SHAMEFUL.
Really?

Not shameful at all.  If you realize you can't afford it and willingly give it up, that's the mature thing to do.  Compare that with what goes on around here.  Someone gets into financial straights and immediately starts suing everybody: bank, loan agency, HOA, lien holder, whoever.  Just to drag out the process to delay the inevitable.



Edit: Here as in So CA, not here as in this web site. 

[jm21-2]

Up here there are tons of people who owe more than their house is worth. Many of my clients. I've seen them do a lot of different things about it. It's not as easy as mailing the keys to the bank because there is more debt than they can sell the house for after the housing market collapse.

Right now the banks do almost nothing if you can't make payments. So far I've heard up to 18 months of missed payments without even so much as a phone call from the bank. I had one client who's made 3 mortgage payments in the last 3 years. The bank finally got on her after a year and a half or so and she made a couple payments, they relaxed, and then she stopped again.

Then there are short sales and deeds in lieu and all sorts of other things, but those can take a long time. And with a non-judicial foreclosure you're typically not liable for the debt.

So what I see often is people living rent-free, not paying their mortgage for years. It seems to be becoming more and more common. I kind of wonder what's gong to happen to the market as they eventually get foreclosed on.

[Ray]

I have no problem with bankruptcy if there's no other option, but to set out with a long term plan to use bankruptcy as a pre-planned tool to pump up your assets and walk away from your obligations is just plain wrong and you'll regret it in the long run.

Amen to that!

Bankruptcy is for someone who falls on hard times and needs a new start in life.

Planning a bankruptcy simply to skip out on your financial obligations is criminal at worst and reveals one's character (or lack there of) at best.

No wonder so many people think poorly of lawyers… 

[piglett]

Here's the basic problem I'm running into. I have no desire to live in a city (hate living in cities). I would be happiest in a remote hut up on a mountain, so long as I had wireless internet. I would cook almost all meals in (I enjoy cooking) and wouldn't travel around much. Getting a price for that kind of lifestyle seems almost impossible.

Nope, i was told by one of the German expats living in Sibuyan that he lives quite well there with a paid for house
& he only spends about $300 a month to do it.
hell you can rent a house rite in the town for only $100 a month
with labor only going for $6 a day per man i would think that you could build a 2 or 3 bedroom house for about 10k to 20k
Dave you out there am I in the ballpark on the construction costs?
Also even on this very remote island there is wireless internet
I think it's only in the 128k to 256k range but i'm sure that will improve over time


piglett

[jm21-2]

Amen to that!

Bankruptcy is for someone who falls on hard times and needs a new start in life.

Planning a bankruptcy simply to skip out on your financial obligations is criminal at worst and reveals one's character (or lack there of) at best.

No wonder so many people think poorly of lawyers… 

Oh yes, all bankruptcies are people falling on hard times...yeah right. More like over the course of a couple years they buy a brand new truck, some quads, tke a $15,000 vacation to disneyland, and so on and so forth until they find themselves buried in debt and can barely afford to make the payments. Then their marriage is under more and more stress and they're having less and less fun so they get divorced and the finances go to the crapper and they file bankruptcy. I do not see that as "falling on hard times," I see it as irresponsible. The bankruptcy system is there to encourage people to spend, spend, spend, because certain economists say it's good for the country. It is also a system that encourages entrepreneurs to try out risky new ideas (which is a very good thing). I really do not believe it is a system for those who fall on hard times unless you have an extremely liberal and sympathetic view of hard times.

[Jeff S]

I (and I don't think Ray) wasn't saying that's the only people who use bankruptcy - just that ethically that's the only acceptable reason to use it. Stupidity isn't a crime, though sometimes I think it ought to be. Setting out to rip off lenders by misusing a legal tool is fraud and theft, though they'd be nearly impossible to prove. Just because you can get away with committing a crime, is no reason to commit it. And as I posted before - karma can be mighty cruel.

[jm21-2]

And the credit card companies aren't out to rip off consumers?

They build in protections against bankruptcy, hence the often staggering interest rates. It's not ripping them off, it's just bargaining better than them. If they don't do a thorough enough investigation to try and determine what I am using the credit for, then they can only blame themselves. They are lending money without any security, that's their business. It's their job to examine all the possibilities and determine how to lend the money, what interest rate makes the risk worthwhile, etc. I wouldn't be hiding anything from them and I would answer all their questions honestly, but they just plain wouldn't ask the questions. And I am not overly sympathetic to companies that make a lot of money encouraging stupid people to live outside their means and then tricking them with all sorts of complicated terms and conditions in fine print.

I don't believe there is such a thing as misuse of a legal tool. For example, I have many friends back home who use food stamps to buy pop, pizza, and snacks. I think it's utter BS. But I don't blame them for misusing a system, I blame the government for creating the system. If the government wanted to put something in bankruptcy where a person had to prove they were worthy of filing bankruptcy, I would support that.

Anyways, the idea just came to me one day. I probably wouldn't do it but it would really be a quick way to build up some extra cash.

[jm21-2]

Hm, doing some reading and looks like the bankruptcy plan I suggested (drawing credit for the purposes of investing in exempt property) could be grounds for a bankruptcy court to not allow the discharge of debt. Ah well. Probably not a good idea to risk that one.

[michaelb]

Are you guys familiar with "Jingle Mail"?  The idea that when a Mortgagee can no longer make the payments, they "put the keys in the envelope" and mail them to the bank.

I remember about 30 years ago a co-worker asked me to follow him and give him a ride back when he dropped his car off. I said sure, thinking he was taking it to a body shop to have some recent accident damage repaired . I was somewhat surprised when he pulled into a bank parking lot and just left it there with the keys in it and a note saying "Here, you can have it back". I wasn't a bit surprised when about a month latter he told me a deputy sheriff had some kind of brought him "some kind of silly paper from some stupid court" and asked me "What's a deficiency judgment?"     

[Jeff S]

And the credit card companies aren't out to rip off consumers?

No. They're in business to make a profit for their stockholders. Some years they win, some years they lose. They're no more out to rip off consumers, than you are out to rip off someone who comes to you to file bankruptcy. You have a skill and license to provide a service, they need it and they pay you.

Some people deserve and get better interest rates than others, some negotiate it, some, by demonstrating their credit un-worthiness, deserve sky high interest rates, some do not deserve a card at all. It's the way the business they're in is run.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/financials/visa-inc-visa-inc/v/nys/income-statement

[Dave H]

I really don't think of large corporations any differently than an individuals. When you rip them off, you are hurting people, be they stockholders, employees, or fellow customers.

Dave

[Ray]

I don't believe there is such a thing as misuse of a legal tool.

But I don't blame them for misusing a system, I blame the government for creating the system.

Oh really?

No matter how you attempt to justify your stupid ideas, a thief is still a thief and a deadbeat is still a deadbeat.

Every time some thief rips off the government, it comes out of my pocket and every other taxpayer's pocket, so screw the thieves. 

[jm21-2]

I figure I'm paying for the system, I might as well get some benefit from it.

It's a lender's job to evaluate risks before giving loans, and hell no corporations aren't people. They lobby for more and more laws to protect their interests, it's good consumers have a few laws on their side. One example I see time and time again is where in a divorce one spouse was awarded debt, but when s/he defaults they're able to go after the other (now ex) spouse as well, despite a court order clearly assigning the debt. Credit card companies most certainly do not need any more help....they try to game the system as much as they can. Fair is fair. Do you really think that if a credit card company saw an option that was legal they wouldn't exploit it because some guy in the company thought it was immoral?? It would be hurting their shareholders to not exploit every possible legal channel. Corporations do not have moral compasses, they have profits.

In any case, looks like it's a bad gamble to take, as I mentioned above.

[piglett]

And the credit card companies aren't out to rip off consumers?

here is an EZ solution to that problem ......just don't play their game!!!

if you play with snakes you mite just get bit


piglett

[Jeff S]

Do you really think that if a credit card company saw an option that was legal they wouldn't exploit it because some guy in the company thought it was immoral?? It would be hurting their shareholders to not exploit every possible legal channel. Corporations do not have moral compasses, they have profits.

And if word got out that they'd do everything and anything to screw their customers, they'd lose  customers and reduce profits. So it maximizes their profits to treat their customers fairly with a sense of good customer service. It's the only way businesses survive.

http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2010/06/16/economic_myths,_fallacies_and_stupidity/page/full

[jm21-2]

And if word got out that they'd do everything and anything to screw their customers, they'd lose  customers and reduce profits. So it maximizes their profits to treat their customers fairly with a sense of good customer service. It's the only way businesses survive.

http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2010/06/16/economic_myths,_fallacies_and_stupidity/page/full

In pure capitalism that would almost certainly be true, but I'm not so sure it holds true in our era of crony capitalism. Many of the companies issuing unsecured credit are tantamount to quasi-governmental institutions.

[Capstone]

Here's the basic problem I'm running into. I have no desire to live in a city (hate living in cities). I would be happiest in a remote hut up on a mountain, so long as I had wireless internet. I would cook almost all meals in (I enjoy cooking) and wouldn't travel around much. Getting a price for that kind of lifestyle seems almost impossible.

For example, read a nice entry on a blog about Xiamen http://xiamenadventure.blogspot.com/2007/06/answers-ii-cost-of-living-and-education.html :

http://xiamenadventure.blogspot.com/2007/06/answers.html
So a young professional makes $625. But if you ask a foreigner I bet you get some answer like this:

Foreign teacher: "you need at least 10,000rmb (twice what the law students expect to make) to live well."

Foreign pensioners: "Xiamen has gone way up in costs and you really need at least $30,000RMB (six times what the law students expect to make) to live decently."

I'm pretty convinced you can survive on less than a professional's salary in the rural areas of SE Asia but you wouldn't know it from reading stuff on the internet.

EDIT:
My parents are retiring and worried about only having $7,000/month income (with a paid for house and boat). Tell them you could live pretty well on $600/month and they would scoff.

The person that wrote that blog is pretty accurate about prices/living expenses in Xiamen. I could definitely see living off of 2000RMB/Month (excluding rent & utilities) if you only ate at hole in the wall, nothing fancy restaurants. Example - my wife and I would often go to a particular hole in the wall restaurant to eat spicy fish. The dish consisted of a very large fish which was more than enough for 2 people and cost about 50RMB. We would usually add a couple of vegetable side dishes, and I would have a couple of beers and the total bill would be about 75RMB - not too bad for dinner for two. If you were eating out at nicer restaurants though then 2000RMB/month wouldn't cut it. A nice, modest 2 bedroom apartment would run you an additional 2000RMB month on average, depending on what floor it was located on and if the building has an elevator. I would say that 5,000RMB/Month would afford you a modest lifestyle in Xiamen and allow you to eat out 4 times a week, have internet, cell phones, go out to the movies 2 times a month, and include transportation on buses & taxis.

I think that the figures that they stated for average income in Xiamen is way off though - they are way too low. My wife earned a basic salary of 6,000RMB/month plus bonuses working as a teacher and this was a very average middle class income. The average annual income in all of China (taking into account all the poor rural people) is about $3,500/24,000RMB or 2,000RMB/month - that is about twice as much as they listed for Xiamen and Xiamen is a much more affluent area and than most areas in China.

[Capstone]

here is an EZ solution to that problem ......just don't play their game!!!

if you play with snakes you mite just get bit

Better yet, play their game using their rules but to your advantage. I charge all my monthly expenses on my airline affiliated credit card but then pay off the balance before the end of each month. So the credit card company is essentially giving me a short term interest free loan every month plus frequent flyer miles for every dollar that I spend but they are not making a dime off of me. 

[robert angel]

It's harder and harder to get over on the credit card companies. I do pay my debt off on the rare times I use the cards. I use a debit card daily that for each purchase switches one dollar, plus adds on top, 5% to that dollar into a  "Way to Save Account"--not as good as it actually sounds.--If I make a 1000 purchases, I make about $50.

What's weird, is that if I used my cards more and paid large accounts off over a six month or longer period instead of paying them off monthly before any interest is due, our overall already pretty darn good credit rating would be even higher.

If I went out and got three new credit cards in a short period, it is legal for my auto insurance company to raise our auto rates as their lobbyists convinced the govt that makes for a riskier driver.

The ways things are set up are weird and getting weirder. The latest rounds of govt. changes seemed to help some of the poor in some ways but other people weren't helped, with the companies able to shorten the turn around time between when you use their cards and when they have to get their money  back or else earn interest.

The worst of the worst, are the pawn shops and 'title loan shops' which are basically legal loan sharks and a a total slap in the face of what's supposed to be a fair, civilized society. I have heard of effective rates of up to 300% and people losing relatively expensive cars because of missing payments on loans worth far less than the car's actual worth.

My best deal was with Citi Bank--who loaned me, interest free, $8000, hoping I'd miss one payment and thus have to pay interest on the whole 8 grand. I had the bank draft and send them all their money a little early and enjoyed a few things I might otherwise have not bought or put off a bit. But those days are long, long gone--for now anyways. I don't even get a discover card, along with countless other card offers, nearly as much as I used to in the mail.


Come to think of it, it's been a while since I read a newspaper story where some one's dog or little child was sent a a usable credit card, as occasionally happened years past. Last week, my13 y/o son did receive what looked almost (no hologram) like a c.c.--it said  'platinum plus' and all on it and in black, but it was an offer to enroll in a contest to win a car and come in for the required test drive..... Now if it was for a new bicycle....

[jm21-2]

I remember one case that came in while I was volunteering at the prosecutor's office: a guy was woken up in the middle of the night when they came to repo his vehicle. How did they do it? Knock on his door? Have the police assist in retrieving the keys? Nope. The guy had left his garage door slightly open and they went under the door, attached tow ropes to the car, and hauled it out through the garage door, destroying the door.

Any sort of criminal charges? Heck no, it's a loan company. Civil matter.

Now imagine what kind of trouble you might get in as an average person if you did something like that...

[Ray]

I figure I'm paying for the system, I might as well get some benefit from it.

It's a lender's job to evaluate risks before giving loans, and hell no corporations aren't people. They lobby for more and more laws to protect their interests, it's good consumers have a few laws on their side. One example I see time and time again is where in a divorce one spouse was awarded debt, but when s/he defaults they're able to go after the other (now ex) spouse as well, despite a court order clearly assigning the debt. Credit card companies most certainly do not need any more help....they try to game the system as much as they can. Fair is fair. Do you really think that if a credit card company saw an option that was legal they wouldn't exploit it because some guy in the company thought it was immoral?? It would be hurting their shareholders to not exploit every possible legal channel. Corporations do not have moral compasses, they have profits.

In any case, looks like it's a bad gamble to take, as I mentioned above.

HUH?

jm21 is complaining about a lack of a “moral compass”?? The question is… where the hell is YOUR moral compass?

For an attorney, an officer of the court, to come on a public forum and suggest that it is morally OK to cheat the government, and cheat banks by using the bankruptcy laws to falsely enrich himself, and then to suggest that others have no “moral compass”, I find absolutely laughable.


Can you spell  H Y P O C R I S Y ?

[jm21-2]

I'm not complaining about that they don't have a moral compass, it's just their nature.

How is it really cheating the government?

I don't mind playing the game better than the banks and ripping them off. Sounds great to me. Just like if there was someone selling a car for less than it's worth I'd buy it and brag about getting a good deal.

There is no real fraud. The banks are well aware of bankruptcies.

EDIT:
Again, looks like it is probably infeasible and/or inadvisable to do the whole build-up equity and then file bankruptcy thing, but seemed like a pretty cool idea.

[fathertime]

I'm not complaining about that they don't have a moral compass, it's just their nature.

How is it really cheating the government?

I don't mind playing the game better than the banks and ripping them off. Sounds great to me. Just like if there was someone selling a car for less than it's worth I'd buy it and brag about getting a good deal.

There is no real fraud. The banks are well aware of bankruptcies.

EDIT:
Again, looks like it is probably infeasible and/or inadvisable to do the whole build-up equity and then file bankruptcy thing, but seemed like a pretty cool idea.

JM21-2,
you gotta learn when it is time to put a sock in it.  as a lawyer, this is not a topic you should be blabbing about...clearly it is the planning which makes what you are proposing highly illegal, there is no way around that fact. 

good luck,

Fathertime!

[throwawaydad]

Better yet, play their game using their rules but to your advantage. I charge all my monthly expenses on my airline affiliated credit card but then pay off the balance before the end of each month. So the credit card company is essentially giving me a short term interest free loan every month plus frequent flyer miles for every dollar that I spend but they are not making a dime off of me. 

Careful with that concept, Mr. Capstone.  Be mindful that credit cards can be canceled at any time, for any reason.  I understand (and applaud) where you're going with that, but don't be surprised when your issuer suddenly shuts you off.

What you're doing certainly helps maintain a good credit rating (and is sound personal fiscal policy), it does NOT improve your credit scoring in any fashion whatsoever.

Plus, as an aside, you might want to give your credit card issuers a heads up, especially when you travel internationally.  Nobody wants an unexpected transaction decline...especially when you're in Timbukthree.