Cost to live in SE Asia

[jm21-2]

So, recent events have brought to light what a PITA my job is. I am not at all into material possessions and my main goal in working is to retire as early as possible. Same for my GF.

So, we have talked about various places in SE Asia that seem like they would be relatively cheap. For me, I need some place a little cooler so it seems that the Chang Mai area in Thailand, Tagaytay in the PI, Baguio in the PI, possibly somewhere in Laos or who knows?

What we'd be looking for is a basic house or condo with broadband internet access (though I suspect wireless internet may be becoming easily available). Food for us and possibly a kid or two. Would prefer to live in a small town. Probably a used scooter or two for transportation. Basically, a pretty minimal lifestyle. We're both pretty much home-bodies who spend a lot of time on the internet. Thailand or the PI seem nice as there are more English speakers. Some place in China might also be an option since she speaks Chinese.

Wondering if some who have lived in the PI or Thailand can give advice on the cost of living. I found some estimates for Chang Mai at around $500-800 per month but that is living in the city where presumably things are more expensive (especially rent).

My plan is that when I am eligible for SS and medicare benefits I will sell my house and take off overseas. Would probably teach English for a while (probably in Taiwan) as I doubt I can save enough money to truly retire. Probably the first 1-2 years would be to take a breather and work on some internet business ideas, but then probably teaching English.

[thekfc]

I too am entertaining the thought of "relocating" to the PI. Well for me it is not a matter of if,  but when.

Of the dozen+ places (provinces) that I have visited in the Philippines, these are my top 3 (so far): Baguio City, Bohol & (western) Makati. Also those white sandy beaches in Pangasinan are beautiful (I have only been to the ones in Pangasinan & Bohol). I am a big city guy & not ready to leave city life complete.

Baguio is a beautiful city & I would love to live there but the main thing that would prevent me from living there is the drive to get there - it is on a mountaintop. Drivers going about 60mph+ on a narrow road with no barriers on the side of the street.   

Ahya's sister told me that when she bought the property that she built her house on, she paid 10,000 pesos (about $223 usd), that was years ago & they are in Manila. They have other family members who bought property in Makati, Pasay, Baguio & Davao but I didn't ask for price. They also own 2 large farms in Pangasinan.

Right now I am asking questions & doing a lot of reading.

I was hoping to go to the Philippines Fiesta at the Meadowlands Expos Center in NJ next weekend but I may not be able to make it.

[Capstone]

To tell you the truth I wouldn't even bother looking too much into it right now if I were you. I say this because you are still pretty young and if you don't plan to do it until you are eligible to start drawing SS then it is going to be a while for you since the minimum age for SS is currently 62 and of course there is talk of raising the minimum. A lot can change in any location between now and then - political & economical being the most important. A nice location that is currently under a stable government and fairly inexpensive can quickly under go a regime change and turn into a real mess. Economies can also change which will make countries that currently have a great exchange rate to the US dollar into places where your dollar doesn't go so far.

[jm21-2]

No, I wouldn't be waiting for SS to start, I'd be waiting until I had 40 quarters of qualifying work. I was a student for a long time working poorly paid or unpaid internships so I need several more years of work to qualify. No matter what happens I think I will be able to retire in my mid-40s at the latest. Ideally in my mid-late 30's.

What I have thought of doing (and some will likely find this offensive as it could be perceived as abusing government programs) is:

Instead of putting money in retirement plans, work on paying off my house early. I bought it on a short sale during what was hopefully the bottom of the market and there's already quite a bit of equity in it.

During the last few years here, pay for day-to-day expenses with credit cards and put as much money as possible into the house.

When I am about ready to go, file bankruptcy and get the credit card debt wiped out.

Sell the house and any remaining assets and put the money towards investments.

Put student loans on the new income-based payment schedule (no payments if below the poverty line and loans are forgiven after 25 years).

That puts me with probably $150,000+ in investments (depends on how much the market recovers) and no debt. Even at a conservative rate of return that should be enough for $400 per month until we're 80. By then we'd either be dead or have enough between SS and gifts/inheritance from family to get by. Or I would have set up some internet business to make up the difference. More probably I would work as a teacher in Taiwan for a few years so that we could get up to $500+/month.

Anything I get from SS will be minimal since I am paying very little into the system and who knows if it will even be around by then. But I may end up coming back in my old age for Medicare benefits.

EDIT: all figures are in current dollars, provided an inflation rate of 3% per year.

[jm21-2]

All things being said, I'm pretty confident I could make a profit of $500-1000 per month by doing some very minimal work with uncontested divorces and unbundled legal services. Probably hire a local with good English to do basic paralegal functions.

[Jeff S]

Sure, making a couple grand a month on the internet isn't that tough, especially for you. I have dozens of ideas.

I'm not telling you how to run your life, but karma can be a cruel mistress. You'd be far better off selling off your assets and paying off your bills than trying to duck out of them.

Marshall is living great in China with only his guitar and his knowledge of English. I don't think he has a college degree. China would be a lot better place to live than many.

[jm21-2]

I just recently thought of the debt ducking ideas. I guess I would have to build up my credit for a while first (never had a credit card before). It just seems like a cool way to give the credit card companies the bird and would be a huge bonus. I'd have to make sure I didn't earn too much though so I could get the right chapter.

The student loans I'm a lot more iffy about, especially one set of them. If I ever wanted to start making real dollars I'd be better off paying them off. And there's a good chance that I would want to do that. One set is at something like .7% interest though (I swear it has to be a clerical error) and is actually going down in value due to inflation. No problem letting that one be.

I like China but the pollution is a little much and visas are more difficult. The PI has a retirement visa you can use starting at age 35 and get permanent resident status. Thailand the retirement visa requires age 55 but visas are a lot easier than China. Same for Laos it seems. Vietnam is probably pretty easy for visas but I don't know if there are any places there with cool weather. Same for Cambodia. Thailand and the PI seem to ahve the most English speakers. Malaysia has a lot of English speakers and some interesting places but it's more expensive apparently.

[Jeff S]

Where I spent a lot of time (where Marshall lives too) is along the coast where the sea breezes keep the pollution in check. The seafood was outstanding, very fresh and really cheap. Just to give you an idea.

Walmarts there are a bit unusual though:











Booze is plenty cheap though. 1 RMB a bottle is what 15 cents?



And if it's antibacterial underwear for men, shouldn't it be ANTI-dong zoo?



Not sure I'd like to live in the real tropics, but I bet rural New Zealand would be interesting - especially the southern island. Very Pacific Northwest-ish weather. I sell lots of boat plans there. It's quite inexpensive to live there too.

[Capstone]

I like China but the pollution is a little much and visas are more difficult. 

I think that the pollution issue in China is a bit overstated. Now I am not talking about the Big cities like Beijing & Shanghai where the pollution is sometimes overbearing but rather in the smaller cities. My wife is from Xiamen which has decent air quality and the streets are always clean. I have been to cities in the 1 million population range in which the air pollution was not bad - Longyan & Na'an in Fujian are 2 such places.

Vietnam is probably pretty easy for visas but I don't know if there are any places there with cool weather.

Northern Vietnam has plenty of spots with cool weather - the highlands of the North would fit that bill nicely. In fact of all the places that you mentioned, other than China, Vietnam probably has more cool weather spots than any of them.

BTW - I agree with Jeff about walking out on your credit card debt as being bad karma. You may find yourself needing to return to the US sooner than you think and having a poor credit rating to deal with would not be a good thing.

[jm21-2]

In Qingdao the pollution would have been unbearable in the long term. I guess you'd have to travel around a bit and visit many cities to figure the pollution factor out. It also seemed that once you got out into the countryside the cost of living dropped dramatically.

Just frustrating because there are a lot of pages which give general costs of living for expats, but they're designed for pensioners who want to travel around, live in a nice condo in a major city, eat every meal out, etc. So it says you need around $900 to live comfortably. Then you look up salaries in the place and it says doctors are the highest wage earners at about $900 per month. Surely you can live for less than the best paid locals.

[Ray]

During the last few years here, pay for day-to-day expenses with credit cards and put as much money as possible into the house.

When I am about ready to go, file bankruptcy and get the credit card debt wiped out.

So you want to run up the credit and then skip out by declaring bankruptcy like a common, worthless deadbeat leech?

Did they teach you that in law school?

No wonder you are sympathetic to the illegal alien leeches on our society. Birds of a feather…   

Ray

[jm21-2]

So you want to run up the credit and then skip out by declaring bankruptcy like a common, worthless deadbeat leech?

Did they teach you that in law school?

No wonder you are sympathetic to the illegal alien leeches on our society. Birds of a feather…   

Ray

Hey, I have tons of clients who ran up a lot of debt by buying cars they can't afford and living way outside their means, then filing bankruptcy (sometimes multiple times). I figure my idea is a better use for the system than what it is often used for. Also plenty of deadbeats who could be working but would rather be on SSD or SSI for some BS disability that doesn't actually prevent them from working. Oh, not to mention all the people on different types of child welfare.

I figure as long as we're in a welfare state might as well take advantage of what I can. If there was a proposal to cut off all welfare benefits I'd be all over it. Until then you might as well take advantage of the benefits since you're paying into the system.

And yes, that's basically what they teach you in law school: get the best deal possible for your client within the bounds of the law.

I honestly thought you would latch onto the student loan idea more .

[piglett]

JM i bet your just going 2 LOVE this idea.................






you ready





..............................








you sure ??









Join the Marine Corps & in 20 years you get to retire to the SE Asia country of your choice.
Seriously dude your already a lawyer they would probably make you a really sweet deal
hell you could even be an officer if you wished to.


I have got a hundred bucks cash rite here that says you will never be caught dead in a military uniform.....rite?
hell you may even hate apple pie, & burn "ol glory" on your days off


hey I'm just kidding with you ( well about most of it at least)

good luck
piglett

[piglett]

here ya go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFeHoMhuz7A

i bet they would even pay off your student loans if you asked really nice

piglett

[jm21-2]

Actually, in my early days of law school I was planning on joining the Navy JAG. But then I transferred schools to an extremely liberal school and got so frustrated having leftist BS crammed down my throat that I just about joined the army as a regular officer. My parents basically bribed me out of that idea and now I'm totally out of shape.

No student loan payoff for JAGs BTW. But good bonuses and salary.

I think Foreign Service Officers (diplomats) have 20 year retirements too.

You get no love as a libertarian. The left think you're a nutjob because of your economic viewpoints and the right think you're a whacko because of your social viewpoints.

[throwawaydad]

This is going to make you guys crazy...but I'm getting in the corner with JM.

I believe in karma.  I ALSO believe in business.  The two of those cannot always run parallel.  I think that absent evidence to the contrary, PEOPLE should be treated with decency, courtesy and respect.

Companies should be treated with a more "business" approach.  After all, they do it us all the time.

Everybody's (but not MY) favorite Billionaire...Donald Trump.  He walked one of his Casinos into BK.  Why?  Because it was in his best interests.

Are you guys familiar with "Jingle Mail"?  The idea that when a Mortgagee can no longer make the payments, they "put the keys in the envelope" and mail them to the bank.

SHAMEFUL.

Really?

Tishman is a VERY successful, real estate company with DECADES of experience and very deep pockets.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/26/nyregion/26stuy.html

To summarize...a FIFTEEN THOUSAND UNIT apartment complex, with over FOUR BILLION dollars of loans.

Jingle Mail that!  Well, they did.

Also check this little link out:

"Biggest Defaulters On Mortgages Are The Wealthy"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/09/business/economy/09rich.html

[Dave H]

Hey jm21-2,

As to the Philippines, great beaches and boating. Inexpensive housing (depends on area - still a bargain) and food. Public transportation is cheap and everywhere. I prefer our $1200 Yamaha scooter (new). I think the Cebu - Bohol area is very nice. I hear We will probably move to that area. I hear that Dumaguete City is also well liked by foreigners.  There is good, inexpensive hospitals and medical care in Cebu. A modern city, almost like being in the US, but with friendlier people and nicer (and cheaper) malls and stores. Many US chains for food, if you get a craving. International business hub (including call centers). Engish widely spoken.  A Chinese wife should be able to find plenty of job offers at Chinese schools or businesses. "Chinese make up about 15% of Cebu's population." There is a beautiful Taoist Temple in Cebu City. http://www.fabulousphilippines.com/taoist-temple-cebu.html

Dave

[kojak]

Actually, in my early days of law school I was planning on joining the Navy JAG. But then I transferred schools to an extremely liberal school and got so frustrated having leftist BS crammed down my throat that I just about joined the army as a regular officer. My parents basically bribed me out of that idea and now I'm totally out of shape.

No student loan payoff for JAGs BTW. But good bonuses and salary.

I think Foreign Service Officers (diplomats) have 20 year retirements too.

You get no love as a libertarian. The left think you're a nutjob because of your economic viewpoints and the right think you're a whacko because of your social viewpoints.

Air Force basic training at Lackland Air Force Base, in San Antonio is not that hard if you want to join the service, just make sure that you keep those knees bent when standing in formation . Something that might interest you JM:   http://www.jagusaf.hq.af.mil/

About pollution in China, I read a very interesting article about pollution levels a decade from now, (Solar-powered process could decrease carbon dioxide to pre-industrial levels in 10 years). Here is the article very promising:   http://www.physorg.com/news199005915.html

Real Estate JM that's your best bet, buy properties that you can rent out and build equity. Preferably in college or military towns, you've be surprised of how much equity you can build in as little as 10 years.

[Jeff S]

I have no problem with bankruptcy if there's no other option, but to set out with a long term plan to use bankruptcy as a pre-planned tool to pump up your assets and walk away from your obligations is just plain wrong and you'll regret it in the long run. It all goes back to the golden rule, do unto others.... as ye sow so shall ye reap... the Bernoulli equation (energy in = energy out) on and on. The principle is the same. The first step to abundance is tithing. The first step to getting screwed is screwing someone else. Pretty basic really, but continually ignored in this modern secular, "if I can't touch it it ain't real.." society. So no skin off my nose, either way, just looking out for jm.

[thekfc]

Are you guys familiar with "Jingle Mail"?  The idea that when a Mortgagee can no longer make the payments, they "put the keys in the envelope" and mail them to the bank.

SHAMEFUL.

Really?

Tishman is a VERY successful, real estate company with DECADES of experience and very deep pockets.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/26/nyregion/26stuy.html

To summarize...a FIFTEEN THOUSAND UNIT apartment complex, with over FOUR BILLION dollars of loans.

Jingle Mail that!  Well, they did.

I remember that, I had a co-worker who live in that building & his apartment rental fee was one of those that was raised, I lost touch with him so I do not know what the outcome was/is.

In my area, for the past few years, there are a lot of new building being built. Some of them are still empty or have filled (rent too high). There is one guy who told me that there are only 2 tenants on his floor. Yet on that same street - 3rd Ave (a major road), there are at least 5 new apartment buildings being built & a few more in the planning stages (groundwork is currently being done). That is only within a 20 block area.

[robert angel]

From what I've gathered, the places to live in the Philippines for us that would offer the best to be expected combination of what we're looking for would be: Davao City, Bohol and I have heard a lot o people speak very highly of Baguio, with it's cooler climate, etc. Seems there's uniformity with foreigners and 'natives' alike on Baguio's attributes, but also acknowledgement that it's generally one of the most expensive places overall, to live at in the Philippines.

I have had many Imodium moments being driven around the mountain sides of Mindanao and while I haven't yet been to Baguio, my wife has and verifies that as Kfc says, it's terrifying at times driving there. She said when she was there, most narrow, high and dangerous mountain roads and passes didn't even have guard rails.

Where most of her family lives now, its scary, but at least there are rails that 'might' stop a bus from careening down a mountain. Still, as said, when those banzai Pinay bus drivers would pass slow trucks on the higher, blind curves, my heart would about leap out of my mouth.

They generally drive there as if they don't have any rules, because as far as I know, they don't! I have heard of occasionally being pulled over for some minor 'indiscretion' and just discreetly giving the cop a little 'lunch money' and the whole thing's over.

Here in the USA, we were up around Atlanta last weekand the driver of the car we were in was cited under the new 'super speeder law' for going 20 MPH over the speed limit and was cited $705. Last year, I challenged a stop sign ticket (my only recorded violation) and the fine, with court costs (one court, first time appearance) was $367!!

That said, many feel that Mindanao is the cheapest, but although Davao City, for family reasons is a big number one on the list, in Davao, like many places in the RP you can live as large and spend just about as much money there as in the USA. No, you don't have Saks 5th Avenue or other high end designer stores, but with several malls, some nice hotels, restaurants, etc, you can 'run up a bill'.

I've asked several times if you could live on $20,000--$25,000 a year in the RP and haven't gotten a real clear 'yes' or 'no'. I guess the answer is yes, but the people who really know best are reluctant to say so, as they know the answer's relative to what sort of life style you want to lead.

I do wish I had more solid idea, but then again, in the last five years alone, I've seen the  price of living in general and most certainly on certain items in the RP go up quite a bit, so in five, or eight years, who knows?

Personally, I want a place that's big enough where it has several nice malls, movie theaters, restaurants and cultural events, access to some nice, but not necessarily 'pricey' resorts and beaches, good fresh fruit, vegies, meat, seafood and access to decent water and of course, reasonable health care.

While the wife wants Davao right now, we both want to spend a week or so looking at Bohol--namely Panglao Island, which is where her family is originally from and where I understand the general area seeems to offer some of the things we're looking for, if not to the degree of Davao--yet. Only problem is there's no direct air service to Davao and that'd mean a day or so traveling there to see family. For me, that might be a blessing at times, but she'd rather be closer to them.

[thekfc]

From what I've gathered, the places to live in the Philippines for us that would offer the best to be expected combination of what we're looking for would be: Davao City, Bohol and I have heard a lot o people speak very highly of Baguio, with it's cooler climate, etc. Seems there's uniformity with foreigners and 'natives' alike on Baguio's attributes, but also acknowledgement that it's generally one of the most expensive places overall, to live at in the Philippines.

I have had many Imodium moments being driven around the mountain sides of Mindanao and while I haven't yet been to Baguio, my wife has and verifies that as Kfc says, it's terrifying at times driving there. She said when she was there, most narrow, high and dangerous mountain roads and passes didn't even have guard rails.

I love Baguio & the "atmosphere". When we first went there Ahya said that she needed a jacket because it was "cold", actually it wasn't cold but the temperature was cool  & beautiful.
The drive getting/leaving there would prevent me from living there (unless I am doing my own driving). Some of the roads are narrow & there were times buses were passing slower moving vehicles around a curve. 
There are few guardrails & if a vehicle goes of the road, it will only stop if there is a tree in the way or when it reaches the bottom (a few hundred feet or thousands feet in some places).
 
Ahya do have family members in Baguio & also her family (from both mother & father's side) are from nearby Pangasinan.

I also did enjoy Bohol.

In the near future, I am hoping to spend a couple of weeks/months "living" in different areas in Phil to see which would be the "ideal" place for me.

I've asked several times if you could live on $20,000--$25,000 a year in the RP and haven't gotten a real clear 'yes' or 'no'. I guess the answer is yes, but the people who really know best are reluctant to say so, as they know the answer's relative to what sort of life style you want to lead.

I am still searching (waiting) for that answer too.

Personally, I want a place that's big enough where it has several nice malls, movie theaters, restaurants and cultural events, access to some nice, but not necessarily 'pricey' resorts and beaches, good fresh fruit, vegies, meat, seafood and access to decent water and of course, reasonable health care.

Same here.

Only problem is there's no direct air service to Davao and that'd mean a day or so traveling there to see family. For me, that might be a blessing at times, but she'd rather be closer to them.

A lot of people are saying that they would prefer living away from the family - I would prefer to live within a stone throw of them.

[thekfc]

How about living in a place with these views?

 

[thekfc]

Here are a few pics I took from the bus on our way to/from Baguio.

 

[jm21-2]

Here's the basic problem I'm running into. I have no desire to live in a city (hate living in cities). I would be happiest in a remote hut up on a mountain, so long as I had wireless internet. I would cook almost all meals in (I enjoy cooking) and wouldn't travel around much. Getting a price for that kind of lifestyle seems almost impossible.

For example, read a nice entry on a blog about Xiamen http://xiamenadventure.blogspot.com/2007/06/answers-ii-cost-of-living-and-education.html :

According to the Xiamen government website, the average income of rural residents of Xiamen is about 520RMB ($68) per month. The average income of city residents is 950RMB ($124) per month. Obviously, that average takes in a lot of people, some of them very, very poor. Remember that my law students would consider a salary of 5000RMB ($625) per month an appropriate salary for them.

http://xiamenadventure.blogspot.com/2007/06/answers.html

Things really are cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap. I basically go to the ATM machine at the beginning of the month and get 2,000 RMB (about $250) and that takes care of all our usual expenses for the month. And we’re not trying to do it on the cheap – we eat out 3-4 times a week and it seems every time I got to Trust-Mart I come home with new shoes or a new outfit for the girls.

We have free housing, including utilities, so I can’t give you much guidance on those. I’d think you can get a comfortable middle-class two-bedroom apartment here for 1500-2000 yuan per month ($200-250). Our single largest expense was the girls’ school tuition – around 3600 yuan each for the semester – but that’s about $100 per month for each of them, and that sure beats the heck out of what I was paying at home! I really haven’t paid any systematic attention to prices, but here’s a sampling of things we’ve bought recently to give you kind of an idea:

So a young professional makes $625. But if you ask a foreigner I bet you get some answer like this:

Foreign teacher: "you need at least 10,000rmb (twice what the law students expect to make) to live well."

Foreign pensioners: "Xiamen has gone way up in costs and you really need at least $30,000RMB (six times what the law students expect to make) to live decently."

I'm pretty convinced you can survive on less than a professional's salary in the rural areas of SE Asia but you wouldn't know it from reading stuff on the internet.

EDIT:
My parents are retiring and worried about only having $7,000/month income (with a paid for house and boat). Tell them you could live pretty well on $600/month and they would scoff.