Do AM try too hard?

[AsphaltVoyager]

Something that's been on my mind lately is the question of whether American men try too hard in relationships with foreign women. For decades, we've been pounded with accusations of not being open enough about our feelings, that we don't value women enough, that we're this negative and that negative... so, with all this indoctrination we've had to endure, is it possible that we carry this baggage over into relationships we seek with foreign ladies? We make ourselves so available to them so easily (some of us, anyhow) in a variety of ways, not the least of which is emotionally. Do we make it too easy for foreign women? Would that lend itself to a tendency toward them taking us for granted or taking advantage of us? Are we too ready for commitment with a good woman, or so desperate (if that's the appropriate word) to be valued by the women we seek that we present no challenge to them?

This question probably would not initially apply to those who sought many women and sorted them according to some list of criteria, though it may come into play later in the process.

Thoughts?

[AsphaltVoyager]

Ok.... 53 views and not a single thought went through a head that saw it? This is not a joke post, nor is it simply me pontificating, or directed at anyone in particular.

[Gato4Astrid]

Ok.... 53 views and not a single thought went through a head that saw it? This is not a joke post, nor is it simply me pontificating, or directed at anyone in particular.

I am one of the 53 viewers but I cannot answer you because I am not an American man !! 

[Dave H]

Ok.... 53 views and not a single thought went through a head that saw it? This is not a joke post, nor is it simply me pontificating, or directed at anyone in particular.

Ahhh...it didn't really ring a bell with me. I grew up out of most of the influences of femNazis. I was almost exclusively involved with foreign women my entire life. My nanny was Cuban. Most of the AW's that I personally know are relatives and I am very fond of them!  Good or bad, I just try to be myself...whatever the relationship. 

Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ_yQ02xwsM

[Ray]

Ok.... 53 views and not a single thought went through a head that saw it? This is not a joke post, nor is it simply me pontificating, or directed at anyone in particular.

Oh stop your whining!

I'll tell you what. I will answer your question when you answer mine...   

[william3rd]

ohhh Pullleeeezzze!!!!!!

It has to be a joke.

[Shadow_mas]

What I as non-American male has observed is that many men who venture in here seem to be looking for a business deal or job opening rather than a lifetime emotional bond.
The emphasis on economic advantage and fulfilling requirements show volumes about this. Good thing is that the ones who tend to stick around are the ones who manage to look beyond this.

[Jeff S]

I had a thought, but I lifted one cheek and it passed quickly. I had the advantage of traveling a lot in my single days and dated women all over the world. I treated everyone pretty much the same everywhere, but the treatment I received in return was entirely different. It was pretty simple. No deep dark physiological or psychological reasons at work.

[utopiacowboy]

Something that's been on my mind lately is the question of whether American men try too hard in relationships with foreign women. For decades, we've been pounded with accusations of not being open enough about our feelings, that we don't value women enough, that we're this negative and that negative... so, with all this indoctrination we've had to endure, is it possible that we carry this baggage over into relationships we seek with foreign ladies? We make ourselves so available to them so easily (some of us, anyhow) in a variety of ways, not the least of which is emotionally. Do we make it too easy for foreign women? Would that lend itself to a tendency toward them taking us for granted or taking advantage of us? Are we too ready for commitment with a good woman, or so desperate (if that's the appropriate word) to be valued by the women we seek that we present no challenge to them?

This question probably would not initially apply to those who sought many women and sorted them according to some list of criteria, though it may come into play later in the process.

Thoughts?

Most American men are pussies who deserve exactly what they get. Very few American men can handle a Colombiana because you've got to have the balls to do it.

[Henry]

Yes, American men have been brainwashed to be more like women. Likewise our women are more manly. The infinite demands by AWs made AM want to bend over backwards with the mistaken thought that AWs could ever be satisfied. Yet they are too unhappy and therefore can never be satisfied.

This is our own fault. When I was in Europe, I would complain to my Euro girlfriends about AWs. They would say it is cause AM spoiled AWs. When I look around, it is true.

If an AW commits a crime, it is cause a man made her do it. If a man commits a crime, he is just a loser psycho. Two completely different standards even though we are equals. It goes deeper than that. Much deeper.

I was desperate over there. Now I know better. It is hard not to be desperate after having interacted with AW who wouldnt spit on you if you were on fire and who never think to reciprocate.

Dont speak this aloud cause most AM will beat you up to protect their emotional Matrix thought processes. Even some here (but not on the Asian side).

If this is your problem, just remember that you are worthy and that the women do have to be good human beings, rather than just showing up like in the USA.

[InnocentVixen]

The way I see it, if the business approach works for some then good for them, it takes a special kind of man and woman to make that work, just like it takes another type of people to make a more romantic kind of relationship work. At the end of the day it is all about compatibility.

What is trying too hard really? if it is knowing what you want and are willing to spend time and money looking for it, I don't think that is a bad thing. If it is changing who you are and settling for any woman as long as she looks good and is from "X" country then I wish you the best of luck because you sure will need it.

With all the respect for the men who are fans of the rock star treatment they get in some places... I think some of this men might not been trying hard enough actually, from the guy that gets dazzled by exotic beauty and marries her without really knowing her to the guy that realize he could get a 10 and starts taking 9's for granted... just keep in mind she is a female human being and that marriage is supposed to be forever.

A good woman does not want a challenge, one that does it is nothing more but the female version of a player and is probably not worthy of you. A good woman will want you for who you are.

Funny enough the "brainwashed" men I've met tend to go for a stronger personality kind of woman, about their age or older, if brainwashed enough they won't even consider to date outside their country/race.

To each their own, I prefer a man who will guide me and to be there for him.

[Zon]

It is impossible to try too hard.  It is very possible to do the wrong things.  If by trying too hard is too much effort to secure an emptiness in oneself ... this only telegraphs incompleteness weakness.  Not very attractive.

There is something to presenting oneself attractively.  These things are not an accident.   But too much superficiality does not create honest communication.

[Henry]

A good woman does not want a challenge, one that does it is nothing more but the female version of a player and is probably not worthy of you. A good woman will want you for who you are.

I was thinking the same thing, but not about foreign women. Just in general the other day I heard some American woman say on a date that she wants a man who isnt easy, cause too many men tell her that she's beautiful. That told me that this woman just wants to play mind games. It doesnt help that this girl was some kinda beauty pageant winner.

[z_k_g]

To each their own, I prefer a man who will guide me and to be there for him.

This is, I think, the essence of the idea of the submissive wife, a woman who submits to her husband.  

I've stated before the word "submissive" has been "debased" to take on a negative connotation by the feminists; you never hear this in relation to relationships in the states except something that most AmW say "I will never be".

I think the most essential element is the fact that submission is voluntary, and entered into because of perceived and real benefits for both participants.  A man should be, at least, the "leader and protector" of his family unit.  A woman seeks this, in my opinion, by her very nature, by natural selection and by instinct.

There are many other facets to his position as leader but one of the most important is the financial support of his family unit; finances cannot be relegated as irrelevant.

A second critical element is emotional.  Now some of my friends here, mostly female, would consider this the most important elemement of the relationship.

I would submit that most AmM have been accustomed to limiting their emotions and just focus on being the leader protector and breadwinner.  Its our comfort zone in the states, our worth is our pocket books, our jobs defines who we are and our "manhood".
  
Most AmM have very little personality beyond sports, cars and video games!  I don't think that AmM have necessarily spoiled our women, we just haven't taken charge!  We don't really know what to do and how to lead.  We have left the women to lead from behind in some ways.  We lie to ourselves what we are "in charge" but its really not true.  

The courts have proven this because when you separate or divorce they move the "power", the cash and assets, to the real "boss"- the woman.  She is perceived to be the leader and is "more" responsible and able to carry on the family without you!

What is the point of this rant?

I think that AmM, who have been in the traditional "American" relationship, and failed, want to venture out and do it the right way.  

They want a woman who is sincerely submissive and they want to actually lead, protect and provide as nature intended.

But now the difficult part.  How do you do that, when you don't have the tools, guidance or examples to lead you down that pathway.  

Well initially when you start your search for foreign bride, you fall back into to the same courting ritual you used with AmW; using your finances to define your leadership and as the solution to establishing a strong interpersonal bond with you foreign female interest.

Well, you fail again, well not totally.  

Your new foreign wife, understands her gender role, and suprisingly, understands your role also!  So however flawed your relationship strategy, you end up a lot better off and sometimes succeed in the relationship, albeit most men for only a short period of time.  Usually this first marriage ends in divorce because you are in "gender" training mode at her expense.

(Have you noticed how most of the men tend to go bust on the first foreign bride?  That's because there were in gender role training courtesy of the first foreign wife.)

Ok, now you are freshly divorced, but guess what?  You are now the AmM transformed, ready to assume you role as the man in the relationship.  When you find the next foreign bride, you understand exactly what your gender role requires and you second marriage magically is a breeze!!  

Why? Your second wife submits to a "real" man and not the "pseudo worldly guy" who is "pissed at the fat ugly american woman femnazis".  

Ironically the problem was not the "femnazis" but it was you!

Why?

Because, relationships are not an escape from something.  Relationships are how you find something, how you discover who you really are as a person.  Relationships are the culmination of the self actualized person's journey in life.  You are now complete because you have found the yin to your yang.

I don't really think that AmM are trying to hard, In my opinion, we know what we want, a healthy loving mutual relationship with a woman, but don't have the proper tools to achieve it!

Do we try to hard? Yes.

But once we take the big step of exploration, date, court and marry a foreign woman, participate in forums such and this to understand our shortcomings and accept our ignorance about relationships, we gradually and then permanently shed the decades of indoctrination and brainwashing that taught us "our value is only in our pocket books" and "men  have no emotions".

We have more value than that.  

We learn that women and men are fundamentally different but complimenting.  Men and women need each other.  We are the leaders, the providers and the protectors.

Most importantly we learn, a woman that is not submissive is a woman that does not need to be married.  She needs to remain single and carry on her life as she will.  

Marriage is inherently an institution of leader and the led, husband and wife, parents and children.

These roles are instinctive and natural, and in my opinion, what God intended.

Just one man's opinion.

Zulu

[Ethan14]

Zulu, don't you think that the trend of courts leaning in favor of the woman in a divorce is an anti-feminist practice?

Feminism preaches that women are equal to men in all ways, but when the courts decide that a woman will get a lot of the financial assets in a divorce, to me it implies that she needs special help to survive without her husband (her protector and leader). I think that is the opposite of feminism.

-Ethan

[z_k_g]

Zulu, don't you think that the trend of courts leaning in favor of the woman in a divorce is an anti-feminist practice?

Feminism preaches that women are equal to men in all ways, but when the courts decide that a woman will get a lot of the financial assets in a divorce, to me it implies that she needs special help to survive without her husband (her protector and leader). I think that is the opposite of feminism.

-Ethan

In my opinion the courts consider the woman the "best" parent.  

As proof, by default the woman is given custody in all but the most extreme cases.  Period.

Along with that custody they are provided child support, and in some cases, where warranted, spousal support.  They always get the residence and depending on the state up to 50% of the assets.

Why is this?  Well, because the assumption of the court is that the woman is taking care of the children and the court is supporting that effort because the father is now "gone."  The lifestyle of the children must be maintained and this is the most equitable way to achieve those ends.

You imply that the woman needs "special help" from your observation of the courts efforts?

Try this. Award custody to Father.
Think about how logical that sounds.  

He already has the resources and both parents are "equal" in the eyes of the court, right?  Why even go through the whole process of taking away your income, kicking you out of the house you paid for?  Give her spousal support and let her go on her way!

Well we know that's a fantasy!   The court's priority is to put the child with the "Best" parent, read the law.  (Only lately, with the diligent work of Father advocacy groups, has it been emphasizing how critical having two parents is to raising a mentally healthy child!)

So in my opinion, based on my observation, and based on the results of the court placing the child in custody of the "best" parent- the mother, most of the time, I stand by my statement that the courts consider the Mother the leader and "the boss".  

When you divorce they simply move the assets over to the most deserving party and the better parent. She is not "needy" in any sense of the word!!

You are just a work donkey as far as the court is concerned.

Zulu

[william3rd]

"In my opinion the courts consider the woman the "best" parent. As proof, by default the woman is given custody in all but the most extreme cases.  Period. Along with that custody they are provided child support, and in some cases, where warranted, spousal support. "

Sometimes it doesnt work that way. I had a client- woman making $75K a year. Husband was a security guard.  Custody was 80/20 Freeman Order. She was pissed because although he was willing to waive substantial spousal support, he wanted the $150 a month that the dissomaster indicated child support should be set at. Welcome to the NFL, honey!!!! Just wrapped up a case where our client was a nurse making $140K. Husband is under employed teacher. Husband has custody. CS/SS is $1500 per month paid by wife.

Actually, on custody the courts are looking at what the status quo is. Most of the time the woman is the one staying home and taking care of the kids on a daily basis. WHo does the doctor appointments, school appointments, day care arrangements? Thanks for being the breadwinner, guys!!!!  On separation, the man doesnt magically become more fit or become the one that should care for the children.

We usually try to get a 2-2-3 shared custody arrangement. But, you gotta live close by, your work hours have to cooperate, and you have to get along with each other.

I have custody of my son because the mother was not fit. When I divorced my first wife (American) I conceded custody because it was best for my daughter that she have her mother take care of her and that I have regular visitation. I guarded my visitation zealously. I also had my child support paid ahead for years just in case I had an accident during all of my overseas travel.

I get child support for my son, which is pretty cool. She fought child support really hard. The original order after trial saved her $64 per month and she paid over $12K for a 3 day trial. She only got the $64 break because she lied about having medical coverage. Here is that Thai face thing again. Whether it was a dollar or $100 dollars a month, she lost face because she had to pay me.

  She has visitation currently set at 1% because it doesnt go any lower than that .  She started out at 34% but lost it due to her behavioral problems. However, now that my son is 16, 6'1 and 195, we dont have to worry about her hurting him.