European / Modern Sensibitilities

[braziliangirl]

I was kind of surprised at how much Japanese thinking and culture they've retained - moreso that sansei, and yonsei (3rd and 4th generation Japanese) here in the US.

Some of the immigrants don't even learn Portuguese. In São Paulo, there is a whole neighborhood populated mostly with Japanese and Chinese immigrants and their families.

Here in the North, especially on little countryside towns, the Japanese community is also strong. The Gracie family, who created the Brazilian jiu-jitsu, learned jiu-jitsu and judo with a guy from one of those towns.

[z_k_g]

Sounds nice.....but how do you meet these women?

In my experience its damn near impossible to even get close because they are trying to remain independent and on their own island of sorts.

There may be thousands of available women but they are taught at an early age not to "mix" with the locals and because of the strong family influences they women usually comply.

Example:

Some of the immigrants don't even learn Portuguese. In São Paulo, there is a whole neighborhood populated mostly with Japanese and Chinese immigrants and their families.

I think you will get zero results and any forays into Brazil will be a waste of time and very fruitless.

Your best bet is to go to Japan.

Zulu

[piglett]

Here in the North, especially on little countryside towns, the Japanese community is also strong. The Gracie family, who created the Brazilian jiu-jitsu, learned jiu-jitsu and judo with a guy from one of those towns.

If i remember correctly back in the early 90's there was a guy names Gracie that was a real big shot when the ultimate fighting thing 1st started. this guy was laying down on the mat in one match & it looked like it was just about over when his opponent tapped out. Gracie started choking the  guy with his feet & the guy not being able to breath had no choice & ended the match.  

piglett

[Dave H]

Hey Zon,

The Philippines may not be as far off base as you think. The Philippines is a land of many looks and different types of ladies. Many Americans think of Filipinas as petite, brown, quiet, shy, simple, and not very materialistic. That is what many American men are attracted to...the opposite of most AW's! While many Filipinas are poor by our standards, most are happy people, who can deal with good times and bad. They are some of the most adaptable people on earth! Many are highly educated. I know many single doctors, dentists, lawyers, nurses, CPA's teachers, etc. My wife is even friends with a single Filipina whose father owns a large bank, with many branches throughout the Philippines. Former First Lady Imelda Marcos was considered one of the most sophisticated and cultured First Ladies the world has ever known. Julio Iglesias first wife Isabel Preysler (mother of his kids) is a Filipina.

Dave

[z_k_g]

Dave,

I think you are wasting your time convincing Zon of the potential in PI.

He has an impression that the pinays are little brown begger or bar girls, living in mud huts, eating dirt sandwiches and waiting for a man to come rescue them from the west!   

Zon seems like the kind of guy who wants an exotic look, but on the inside she pretty much just like him, or as he puts it "euro whatever"!

But hey, not too ethnic!  He really doesn't seem like to type to embrace the richness of totally different culture, especially if they happen to be a bit poor.   

He wants the exotic looking arm candy for wife.  Asian/Latina/Euro model on the outside, but as he puts it "euro/sophisticated", on the inside.  A nice neat package that he can just pick up and carry home!

While I do share his abhorrence for scammers and bad manners, I think that you will find that in any culture when you deal with a certain element.  Poor people are not the only ones with horrible manners.

As I suggested, he will be very happy in Japan, all the roads are paved and very few if any brownouts, its super clean and antiseptic almost and you would be hard pressed to know u were not in the States if the signs were not in Japanese! 

Not that Japanese women are clones, they are very intelligent, sophisticated and in some ways Euro/Americanized, but they are definitely not poor. 

There ya go Zon!   

All the smart guys will be spoiled and happy with our pinay jewels in plush, inexpensive condo (45 pesos to the dollar) on one of the 7,100 Islands, while he is spending all his hard earned $$$ on the Asian /Euro Divas!!!

Poking fun at ya Zon!!  :-)

Zulu

[Zon]

Interesting sub topic that we stumbled upon - poor girls.  There are women that can be friends, and playmates.  Then there are women that you allow into your life.  Those are two different things.

First off, for me, I value authenticity and  honesty most of all.  Despite my current comments, I am TOTALLY a person that values merit, competency, courage, on an individual level... dog eat dog is OK by me.  I dislike the human product of financial privilege. (Hell, I am even aware of how institutional jobs and unions can make an AM a UNIX)   I especially had a hard time accepting the firm and sharp caste system in Colombia - a third world country where MONEY MATTERS MOST. (this is a dirty little, ever present, truth that expat boosters like to overlook in favor of bird watching)

While I was in the DR a couple of months ago, I did not stay only at the beach.  I went to a small valley city in the center of the island that reminds the traveler more of an alpine land than the Caribbean, Constancia.   There is the visible  European concentration in this little city.  In fact, there is a immigrant group of several thousand Japanese in this little area. For the first couple days, I thought I found paradise!  The valley is the agriculture center for the cruise industry. It grows grapes, strawberries, blueberries and flowers, and has a little airstrip that flies the agriculture product to market.  The women were as pretty as you could find anywhere.  They were more than a little interested in me.  Nobody comes to visit this little city - NOBODY.  But, after I started to understand the economic realities at work in this little shagrala -I felt that it was not really fair!  The girls with a minimum of choices went to school in the the big cities: Santiago, or Santo Dominga, or Europe, or USA.  The rest were living in various degrees of poverty.  There is a small proportion of haves, there is a large proportion of have nots.  The difference in life style is DRAMATIC. Food, Electricity, Running Water are luxuries. Is this a level playing field?  I think not ... sort of like a professional football players going up against a high school team and thinking it is fair.   There is a comment that is written here from time to time - FIND YOUR EQUAL.   I struggle to fully understand how that applies to me, but I realized that this situation was not equitable.   Maybe I am off base here.  It is possible I may change my mind.  But this is my thinking currently.     

Colombia is a different can of worms than the DR.  No matter how much you may like the Colombian culture, you have to be aware that violence and homicide happen every night in poor barrios and nobody ever hears about it. Class is not meritocratic in Colombia. A person from the low middle class can go through medical school and be 100% bright and talented.  But that does not mean he is going to be employed at the best hospitals - these are functions of having the right connections; pedigree Colombian style.  Poverty often leaves scars.  My negative comments about "poor girls" are not focused on their economic plight.   I sympathize!  BUT, I am very aware that bringing this element into your personal life carries risks.  ( BIG TIME - even if you don't think so.) For example, maybe the girl mentions to her cousin that the gringo visiting is a good photographer and has great camera equipment. That is enough to set into motion an attempt to steal the camera equipment, where the gringo's life is completely secondary.  Just an example of the endless real possibilities of operating in poor barrios.  Sadly,  THERE ARE REASONS why the middle and upper class treat the poorer classes with disdain, and try to operate in a totally different orbit - it is damn dangerous.

So, there is my thinking on class and dating in the DR and Colombia - I think Philippines too?   And let's be brutally honest: it is possible for a rather old AM who is past prime by 10 - 20 years and NOT very outstanding in any regard to go to the DR, Colombia, or PH and find a sincere wife or girlfriend that is 30 years his junior and still has a figure.  She is happy, and behaves as mixture of wife, girlfriend, maid.  Those relationships CAN be honest and have a shelf life where all parties get what they are seeking; but are created PRIMARILY because of economic dislocations. I am not judging negatively!  I think that is a wise comparative decision for many AM. But personally, this is what I wish to avoid.

Am I seeking a DIVA?  Am I seeking a trophy?  No.  In fact, I am leery of very, very beautiful women.  Although there are exceptions to every statement, personally I find 9's and 10's are overly affected by their physical beauty.  In most cultures these ladies have overly relied on physical appearance to negotiate the challenges of each day (especially so for poorer women who have little to negotiate with in the first place).

Just want to be clear and keep the thread on focus

[Jeff S]

Let's not forget...

[utopiacowboy]

That last post was excellent, Zon. You are absolutely right about your observations of Colombian society. My sister-in-law is a lawyer in Bogota and was looking for a job - my mother-in-law made a few calls and presto - a job materializes! It's always about who you know in Colombia. One time I asked my wife is she knew anyone who had gone to public school in Colombia. She thought about it for a while and finally came up with someone - a worker from the textile plant that she had managed in Itaqui.

[Dave H]

Dave,

I think you are wasting your time convincing Zon of the potential in PI.

Zulu

His loss! I know quite a few guys whose foreign brides or Aw's took off when their businesses went belly up. Not so with the Fil/Am couples I know...

Dave

[Zon]

This post both misses characterizes my personal perspective, and emphasizes my criticism...

"His loss! I know quite a few guys whose foreign brides or Aw's took off when their businesses went belly up. Not so with the Fil/Am couples I know..."   

The implication is clearly that financial / material provisioning by the man affects AW and some foreign brides, but not Filipino wives? 

Does not HAVE TO BE SO if the relationship is not singularly reliant upon economics. Regarding your observation, the same could be said for dogs and cats when the owner is laid off of work.  What does this really imply?

[z_k_g]

 

The implication is clearly that financial / material provisioning by the man affects AW and some foreign brides, but not Filipino wives? 

Does not HAVE TO BE SO if the relationship is not singularly reliant upon economics. Regarding your observation, the same could be said for dogs and cats when the owner is laid off of work.  What does this really imply?

Zon,

Good points and a solid argument.

But my impression is that you are assuming your experience in Columbia and the DR apply to the Philippines.  Every culture has its particular social strata the is hidden to the casual visitor but is fully understood by the natives. 

In the PI, like many areas of SEA, the Chinese dominate and hold the wealth and prestige.  Then if you add in the mix the influence of the Spanish and the USA, the social casts are significant and real.  The social structure you describe also exists in the Japan, Korea etc, so you are spot on!

But I would add another aspect to the discussion that needs to be articulated. 

Pinays are different.  How you ask?  Well they of course are concerned about financial stability, they are very hard working and dedicated, just look around the world and you will find Filipinos working in every country, sending money home and supporting their families.

Why are they different then?  This may sounds a bit corny, but I think their hearts are less hardened. 

This statement may sound ridiculous because of the rampant crime, political assassinations, graft and incompetence of the government, horrible national infrastructure and abject poverty of the country in many areas, but I think its true.

They are, on the whole, a people that see the glass as half full. 

The typical pinay woman keeps her virginity, not because she is selling to the highest bidder, but because she wants to marry and love one man for the rest of her life!  This is real powerful and you just will not find this in Columbia or the DR. 

The average pinay is "In Love with Love"

The DR, Columbia and the PI similar in some respects economically. Yes, I am totally with you on that point!

But, I fundamentally disagree with your conclusion that the hearts and minds of the women and similar because they share tough economic and social challenges.

Zulu

[Henry]

Yup. Not to offend anyone, but I always figured that fewer sex partners in general means healthier mentality for women. Also less "game playing" as well.

[Zon]

Commenting on this posts ... "but I always figured that fewer sex partners in general means healthier mentality for women"

I think that when people have as many experiences as possible / necessary, and they are able to make CHOICES freely, then, and only then, are they able to find their true natures and characters.  Mental health is largely a consequence of favorably accepting and re-enforcing that awareness.

I think I am more psychologically healthy, in large part, due to a wide range of experiences - including sexual.  Does this sound absurd?   Fringe experiences do not necessarily lead to greater and greater fringe behavior ... it is possible to make more centered choices - but these choices are made with the benefit of knowledge and experience.   That makes them more real, true, and enduring - in my opinion.

[z_k_g]

I think that when people have a many experiences as possible / necessary, and they are able to make CHOICES freely, then their true nature and character are found - both by the individual and observed by those with whom the individual interacts. Mental health is largely a consequence of favorably accepting and re-enforcing that awareness.

I am more psychologically healthy, in part due to a wide range of experiences - including sexual.  Without these I would remain naive; taboos and insecurities originating from the unknown often grow in these environments.   Perhaps men are different from women.  I can not say...

Just my opinion.

Well said!  

99% Agree,  I would say that more interpersonal "relationships" but not necessarily sexual help a person, male or female to become more self actualized.

Sex is an important aspect with female/male relationships when looking for a partner, but its just one link in the chain of building healthy relationships.

Zulu

[jm21-2]

I'm not sure if this is what Zon was getting at, but it's a matter of choice. If you look at a Filipina from a poor family in the provinces, she is under a huge amount of pressure to marry the first westerner who's willing to pick her up. The same with virginity: while a woman being a virgin might indicate a woman very committed to the idea of marriage in a western country (where there are lots of temptation and little pressure to stay a virgin) it doesn't mean nearly as much to a Filipina in the provinces where there are lots of pressures on her to stay a virgin until marriage. Thus you don't get to see what they're really like and what they really want. There is too much pressure on them to act a certain way, so even some that would normally not act that way (e.g. stay a virgin, or marry that guy) do so anyways. That's a potentially dangerous situation. It's much more difficult to tell what type of girl she is or what her real feelings for you are.

I don't think having a lot of sex partners in any way helps to create stable marriages, and having a lot of relationships probably doesn't either. Look at divorce rates for people who re-marry: with people who marry twice their rate of divorce is significantly higher, and by the time someone has been married 3 or 4 times it's pretty obvious statistically that they can't stay married for long. I imagine the same holds true for relationships other than marriage: people with a lot of medium-term relationships (a few years each let's say) are probably not likely to be successful in marriage. Dating a lot of different people because you can't find a good match is one thing, but a big part of successful relationships (romantic or otherwise) is about sticking by people. It doesn't sound very romantic, but I think people who find a decent person and stick with them are going to be much better off in marriage than someone who keeps getting out of relationships after a few years because it got old, or wasn't perfect, or whatever.

[z_k_g]

I'm not sure if this is what Zon was getting at, but it's a matter of choice. If you look at a Filipina from a poor family in the provinces, she is under a huge amount of pressure to marry the first westerner who's willing to pick her up. The same with virginity: while a woman being a virgin might indicate a woman very committed to the idea of marriage in a western country (where there are lots of temptation and little pressure to stay a virgin) it doesn't mean nearly as much to a Filipina in the provinces where there are lots of pressures on her to stay a virgin until marriage. Thus you don't get to see what they're really like and what they really want. There is too much pressure on them to act a certain way, so even some that would normally not act that way (e.g. stay a virgin, or marry that guy) do so anyways. That's a potentially dangerous situation. It's much more difficult to tell what type of girl she is or what her real feelings for you are.

I totally disagree with you here, I'm not sure where you are getting this information from.

I will relate exactly the discussion that I had this Friday with my sweetie as an example.  

Her mother is NOT in favor of her daughter (20) marrying before she is 25.  She lives in the provinces and she is a virgin and they have very little money.  Her father really just wants his wife to be happy so he supports what she thinks. Her sisters and brothers really don't care one way or the other because they are living their lives.  Her one sister that she is close to lives in Davao and is still not married at 25, she interacts with many westerners but has a pinoy bf.

We discussed our strategy for asking for her parents permission to marry at 23; we need their permission to marry.

From my experience, there is absolutely NO pressure on the pinays to get married to the first westerner that comes along.  From my experience, the emphasis is on taking care of their parents, finishing school and getting a decent job that pays well.  Marriage and children is dead last.

This notion that all women from these countries, specifically the PI, are looking for a western man to rescue them, and that their families putting a "huge amount of pressure" on them to get married, is false.

This notion that there are these poor waifs begging western men to marry them and the first guy that shows up will get the "virgin" prize is false also.

The truth is that the scenario that you describe probably fits with the girls of Angeles City, Manila, Pattaya and Bangkok that work in the bars and come from the province to seek westerners and support their families by selling sex.  

But, we are talking about only 1%of the female population of the PI!  These women will marry the first westerner that proposes because they are under pressure from their families to get married and they have some ulterior motives.

(I won't expound on the complications of a relationship with a prostitute because that discussion would lead us down another path)

But not for the majority of the female population!!!

My sweetie has NO desire to leave PI.  She is a province girl that love the west, its music, its clothing and TV, but doesn't necessarily want to marry a westerner and get "paid".  

She, and most, if not all of her female friends are excited about westerners but have NO desire to "escape" poverty to come to the states.  

She and most of her friends are virgins.  I can detect no "pressure" to marry the first westerner that comes along. Of the hundred or so of her classmates, not one has asked her to meet a "kano" so they can get married!!  

A few have asked for me to show their pictures to single American guys and, if they are interested, give them their Yahoo names.   But none have exhibited this "desperation" and "pressure" that  you seem to imply.

You really make the women sound desperate and needy; it just ain't so dude!

Zulu

[Bob_S]

Wait a sec.  Just to clarify.  When you say "European sensibility", are you talking manners and cultural sophistication?  Or are you talking sex and modern openness and lacking traditional sexual mores?

[Zon]

for the purposes of this thread let's leave meeting, attraction, and sex off topic. This ought to be about manners of living, and value systems, generally speaking.  I have seen a "limitations" sometimes with women coming from 3rd world environments ... They lack a "polish" or aptitude to observe refined manners.  Of course this is a bad generalization. 

So, European / Modern Sensibilities  have to do with a manner, and elegance, and sophistication ( or ability to acquire sophistication); and education too.  The point is - are such women available and where? Japan seems to be the main agreed direction; with debates erupting about to what degree Philippines has, or has not.   I am just learning.   

I do not consider myself a class centered person.  I am a competence centered person.  I would not be interested in a wife that had gross limitations in a variety of social settings: formal gatherings; social gatherings where a minimum awareness of  academics; history; politics; and humanities are commonplace.

[z_k_g]

So, European / Modern Sensibilities  have to do with a manner, and elegance, and sophistication ( or ability to acquire sophistication); and education too.  The point is - are such women available and where? Japan seems to be the main agreed direction; with debates erupting about to what degree Philippines has, or has not.   I am just learning.   

Zon is quite clear about this point.

In SEA, Japan will fit the bill nicely, the entire country is built around the concept of "fitting in", conformity, manners, elegance and sophistication.   Although this is common throughout Asia among the elite, no place is it more integrated into every aspect of everyday life, despite the influences of the west, than Japan.

I think the discussion about the PI came about because he suggested that the island were completely devoid of these types of women.  Well, they exist in PI but its not the norm because of the drastically different cultures, histories and economics.

In my opinion Zon will find what he is looking for in Japan.

Zulu

[Bob_S]

So, European / Modern Sensibilities  have to do with a manner, and elegance, and sophistication ( or ability to acquire sophistication); and education too.  The point is - are such women available and where? Japan seems to be the main agreed direction; with debates erupting about to what degree Philippines has, or has not.   I am just learning.  
I do not consider myself a class centered person.  I am a competence centered person.  I would not be interested in a wife that had gross limitations in a variety of social settings: formal gatherings; social gatherings where a minimum awareness of  academics; history; politics; and humanities are commonplace.

In that case, I'd have to go with the consensus and say Japan really does fit your bill best.

Japan, according to some expat blogs I've read, does seem to consider itself more of a European style country.  If the gods carved it out of the Asian continent and set it down in the Atlantic Ocean within ferry distance of mainland Europe, the Japanese wouldn't be too terribly upset (and wouldn't be missed at all by the other Asian countries they have a bad history with).

Here is my personal experience.  My mom grew up dirt poor, but in marrying my dad who was a hard worker with some ambition was raised up to comfortable middle class status.  But she always knew she wanted us raised with some better manners than many of those practiced by people she grew up with.  You know, basic stuff like don't chew with your mouth open, don't talk with your mouth full, cover your mouth when you sneeze or cough, use a tissue to blow your nose (or fetch a booger but not in public), use a napkin, not your sleeve, don't quickly grab the last of whatever is there, say please, thank you, excuse me, God bless you if someone sneezes, etc.  Okay, I got all that.  Know my salad fork from my dinner fork and my tea spoon from my soup spoon, mostly.
Now, my wife has impeccable manners, puts mine to shame.  Seriously, makes me look like a country bumpkin in comparison.  And she was raised in a middle to lower middle class household.  There are levels of polite decorum that you or I might not think about but are considered common knowledge or simple common courtesy over there.  There are times when it is damned annoying (like when a person clearly needs to blow their nose but won't because blowing your nose in public is considered rude but sitting there sniffing a hundred times a minute is okay), but generally, common courtesy is actually common, not a surprising rarity.

Why this is so, I can't say.  Though I suspect it has something to do with the fact that, during their social revolutions, they never killed off their ruling caste as was done in China and Russia (the ruling classes often being the standard for polite behavior in a culture) but rather folded them into the rest of the people.  As a result, certain mannerisms never came to be regarded as just something the enemy oppressive ruling caste does.  It's something for everyone, and gosh darn isn't it nicer when everyone does it?  Anyway, just a thought.

What do they think of us?  Big and friendly, but ultimately bulls in a china shop, oblivious to a myriad of unwritten rules that help lubricate the cogs of society.

[utopiacowboy]

for the purposes of this thread let's leave meeting, attraction, and sex off topic. This ought to be about manners of living, and value systems, generally speaking.  I have seen a "limitations" sometimes with women coming from 3rd world environments ... They lack a "polish" or aptitude to observe refined manners.  Of course this is a bad generalization. 

So, European / Modern Sensibilities  have to do with a manner, and elegance, and sophistication ( or ability to acquire sophistication); and education too.  The point is - are such women available and where? Japan seems to be the main agreed direction; with debates erupting about to what degree Philippines has, or has not.   I am just learning.   

I do not consider myself a class centered person.  I am a competence centered person.  I would not be interested in a wife that had gross limitations in a variety of social settings: formal gatherings; social gatherings where a minimum awareness of  academics; history; politics; and humanities are commonplace.

I can vouch that the type of woman that you are describing can certainly be found in Medellin.

[z_k_g]

I can vouch that the type of woman that you are describing can certainly be found in Medellin.

I do agree with you!

But, I think Zon wants OUT of Central and South America and Russia.

He want a female Asian option with "European / Modern Sensibitilities"  hence his purpose for starting this post.

We were trying to give him a few places to look, my first thought was Japan.

Zulu

[Zon]

from first page ...

Plan A - colombia antioquia    Why -
1, 2.3 hour direct flight form first home; family & friends
2, I like the culture, enjoy my time there, and UNDERSTAND it.
3, There should be a big enough dating pool to find what I am seeking if I am honest; patient; and spend time.
4, Time Machine - I am 10 - 20 years younger in every way in Colombia
5, Big Fish / Small Pond - despite the safety concerns - there is a very positive stereotype that you inherit if you are a well mannered, descent looking, successful gringo in Colombia.
6, Advantageous cost of living on the US Dollar

I'm just making sure I leave no stone unturned.  As long as one is calling a "Do Over" there is no reason NOT to consider all possibilities.  You fellas have been very very helpful today.  I think Plan A will deliver.  But, it is good to know there are options I have not even considered.  thanks

[Jeff S]

Well, my thought is that you could find what you're looking for in any country on earth, from China to Sweden, Argentina to Canada, Nigeria to France. The big question is how big is the pond you're fishing in. Is there one women like that in your country of choice or do most of the single women in that country exhibit those characteristics? My gut tells me it doesn't matter. You need to first pick a country whose culture you enjoy and can feel a part of, then look for a women in that country.

All of that said, if you're looking for a country where there are a lot of single sophisticated, worldly, elegant, easy to get along with women, who easily dovetail into modern Western society, who you can feel bring as much to your relationship as you do, you'll have to look far and wide to find one with more than Japan. Just one man's opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[Dave H]

His loss! I know quite a few guys whose foreign brides or Aw's took off when their businesses went belly up. Not so with the Fil/Am couples I know...

Dave

...or other Asian/American couples that I know.