Arizona Immigration Enforcement Law

[jm21-2]

Creating a fictional distinction between two laborers (legal v. illegal) and then saying the problem is that it's illegal....I mean c'mon here. This is all a fiction. It's not leveling the playing field, it's protectionism for domestic labor. Now you can argue that the government should protect its legal citizens from competition, but don't go on about creating a level playing field when what you want clearly makes it an un-level playing field in favor of domestic labor.

Drug cartels? Easy solution: legalize drugs.

What I am saying is more regulation doesn't mean better. You're arguing that the government didn't do it's job right and needs to do better. I'm arguing that it's the nature of government, especially our government, to screw things up, and there will never be good regulation. Good regulations seem to be basically impossible for our government so why let them spend a lot of money to make ineffective regulations which lull the populace into a false sense of security?

I pay for my own health insurance. It's quite easy. There are many different pools and would be a whole lot more if there was no employer-based insurance. Mine is cheap enough that I don't really care (hazard). I get discounts for paying in cash on most things and often some sort of professional discount. Just had a filling done and got one of those sonic care toothbrushes for about $210 which ain't bad. Unfortunately most people don't shop around or even know how much their treatments cost because insurance pays for everything, so there's no real market-based competition on prices.

You probably have never run a business. They keep putting more and more requirements on businesses as far as taxes and employees go to the point where the American entrepreneurial engine is being crushed. It is becoming harder and harder for a small business to operate. We're going to have unemployed people go up to a small business seeking a job saying "I really want a job, I've been looking forever! I'll work for $8/hour and don't need health insurance or paid vacation." The small business owner will then respond "sorry, wish I could hire you, I really need the help, but that's below the minimum wage, I'd have to make employer contributions for taxes, I have to buy you health insurance (and probably later mandated vacation time)....I just can't afford to hire you. And I just paid my accountant $2k to do my taxes and then had to pay extra taxes because I'm the employer as well as the employee so I'm pretty much out of money anyways. "

Really, the only reason small businesses can survive right now is because of tax loopholes.

[Capstone]

I pay for my own health insurance. It's quite easy. There are many different pools and would be a whole lot more if there was no employer-based insurance. Mine is cheap enough that I don't really care (hazard). I get discounts for paying in cash on most things and often some sort of professional discount. Just had a filling done and got one of those sonic care toothbrushes for about $210 which ain't bad. Unfortunately most people don't shop around or even know how much their treatments cost because insurance pays for everything, so there's no real market-based competition on prices.

I know how much treatments cost and as a result I am very grateful for my employer paid 'Cadillac' plan as you called them. My wife had some fairly minor surgery done several months ago and the hospital bill came to about $12k of which I only had to pay $250. Just wait until you get a bit older or until you get married and your wife gets pregnant then you will see how 'easy' it is to pay for your own insurance & treatments. I am not knocking your stance on the issue, just saying that it is easy to have your opinions concerning medical insurance when you are young & single - I never really appreciated or thought too much about my employer paid medical insurance when I was single either.

I do shop around when it comes to medical care though not for the best price but rather for the best doctor. When it comes to medical care I want the best guy working on me, not the guy who put in the lowest bid

[jm21-2]

I know how much treatments cost and as a result I am very grateful for my employer paid 'Cadillac' plan as you called them. My wife had some fairly minor surgery done several months ago and the hospital bill came to about $12k of which I only had to pay $250. Just wait until you get a bit older or until you get married and your wife gets pregnant then you will see how 'easy' it is to pay for your own insurance & treatments. I am not knocking your stance on the issue, just saying that it is easy to have your opinions concerning medical insurance when you are young & single - I never really appreciated or thought too much about my employer paid medical insurance when I was single either.

I do shop around when it comes to medical care though not for the best price but rather for the best doctor. When it comes to medical care I want the best guy working on me, not the guy who put in the lowest bid

I would love to have a free insurance plan that cost my employer hundreds or thousands of dollars (tax free to me), don't get me wrong. I have had some surgeries when I was younger with atrocious bills and my brother came down with cancer when he was young which was a boatload of money in treatments. I hate insurance but think it has its place. I have a plan with a $2,000 deductible (per year, not per visit) and an HSA so I get to make my own choices about normal medical care, but I am covered in case I come down with cancer or I need a major surgery. The massive amount of money I save will easily pay for the deductible if something bad ever comes down.

All I'm saying is is that if you had to make your own choice about medical care and insurance coverage it might be quite different. You'd have to weigh the potential risks versus the money involved. That gets people thinking, which I generally think is good.

[Researcher]

Creating a fictional distinction between two laborers (legal v. illegal) and then saying the problem is that it's illegal....I mean c'mon here. This is all a fiction. It's not leveling the playing field, it's protectionism for domestic labor. Now you can argue that the government should protect its legal citizens from competition, but don't go on about creating a level playing field when what you want clearly makes it an un-level playing field in favor of domestic labor.

        A fictional distinction? Fiction? I could swear that hiring an illegal was, well, illegal.As a matter of fact I thought if a company hired 10 or more illegals in 12 months that was considered a felony.But it's only fiction? c'mon here, domestic and foreign labor?That's a good one, I'm sure MSNBC will be using those terms next week!
        US citizens shouldn't have to compete with illegals, I don't care if it is a high school kid looking for summer work.

Drug cartels? Easy solution: legalize drugs.

     While we are at it let's legalize murder as well.Think of the burden lifted from law enforcement and the prison system.Not to mention the sweet profits and business opportunities in the gun and knife industries....I guess anything can sound like a good idea when it really isn't.

 

What I am saying is more regulation doesn't mean better. You're arguing that the government didn't do it's job right and needs to do better. I'm arguing that it's the nature of government, especially our government, to screw things up, and there will never be good regulation. Good regulations seem to be basically impossible for our government so why let them spend a lot of money to make ineffective regulations which lull the populace into a false sense of security?

    But some regulation is needed.Nothing is perfect and our government surely isn't but its the only one we have.Sometimes doing nothing is worse than screwing up.At least we can learn from mistakes.

You probably have never run a business. 

  No I haven't but so what?I have worked for several in my lifetime and have friends that run businesses.

 

They keep putting more and more requirements on businesses as far as taxes and employees go to the point where the American entrepreneurial engine is being crushed. It is becoming harder and harder for a small business to operate. We're going to have unemployed people go up to a small business seeking a job saying "I really want a job, I've been looking forever! I'll work for $8/hour and don't need health insurance or paid vacation." The small business owner will then respond "sorry, wish I could hire you, I really need the help, but that's below the minimum wage, I'd have to make employer contributions for taxes, I have to buy you health insurance (and probably later mandated vacation time)....I just can't afford to hire you. And I just paid my accountant $2k to do my taxes and then had to pay extra taxes because I'm the employer as well as the employee so I'm pretty much out of money anyways. "

Really, the only reason small businesses can survive right now is because of tax loopholes.

      I agree with you here.More should be done to help small businesses.Although many fail because of poor planning and being mis-managed than high taxes.And IMO, if a business can't afford to pay minimum wage(or have better sense that to pay $2k to do taxes) then they should go under.They also shouldn't resort to hiring someone "under the table" or other illegal activities to stay in business.It's survival of the fittest not "by hook or by crook".

  Researcher

[Dave H]

I know people who own/owned similar businesses...some failed while some did not. Why?...not what you might think. Many of the businesses that didn't fail where being supplemented by illegal drug money and/or hired illegal alien workers in their sweat shops at below minimum wage. Illegal is illegal!

The Rise and Fall of John DeLorean
http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id305.htm

[jm21-2]

        A fictional distinction? Fiction? I could swear that hiring an illegal was, well, illegal.As a matter of fact I thought if a company hired 10 or more illegals in 12 months that was considered a felony.But it's only fiction? c'mon here, domestic and foreign labor?That's a good one, I'm sure MSNBC will be using those terms next week!
        US citizens shouldn't have to compete with illegals, I don't care if it is a high school kid looking for summer work.

Yes, a fiction. Citizenship is something created by our government from nothing. There is not much difference between an American, Mexican, or French citizen on the biological level.

     While we are at it let's legalize murder as well.Think of the burden lifted from law enforcement and the prison system.Not to mention the sweet profits and business opportunities in the gun and knife industries....I guess anything can sound like a good idea when it really isn't.

Drugs typically only hurt the user. Alcohol is arguably more dangerous than the drugs that are currently illegal.

 

    But some regulation is needed.Nothing is perfect and our government surely isn't but its the only one we have.Sometimes doing nothing is worse than screwing up.At least we can learn from mistakes.

Oh if only our government learned from its mistakes....

      I agree with you here.More should be done to help small businesses.Although many fail because of poor planning and being mis-managed than high taxes.And IMO, if a business can't afford to pay minimum wage(or have better sense that to pay $2k to do taxes) then they should go under.They also shouldn't resort to hiring someone "under the table" or other illegal activities to stay in business.It's survival of the fittest not "by hook or by crook".

Sure, many (probably most) fail due to poor planning. But it has become so daunting to run a business that working a salaried position seems a lot easier. That discourages people from setting up their own business. Whenever I visit Asia (especially China or Taiwan) I am amazed at how many small businesses there are compared to here. It's just absolutely astounding. Is it any wonder their economies are booming?

Sure a business might be able to pay minimum wage, but why should they be forced to? Their money might be better spent on something else. Or maybe the person's labor isn't worth $8 per hour but the company would like to give them a break, but can't because of the law? Are we then going to ban unpaid internship positions at non-profits because they aren't getting paid minimum wage (but are getting great experience and references)? Where do we stop?

Book keeping is a major PITA. It's a big time drain, or a money drain if you don't have time. And all for the purpose of doing taxes.

How are minimum wage laws and forcing employers to provide health care "survival of the fittest"? Same for fines for hiring illegals. It's actually the opposite. Those sorts of laws discourage competition, not encourage it.

[Jamie]

The border could be sealed off easily. The government needs to stop worrying about the Hispanic vote and do the right thing.

The government can’t even keep drugs out prison and you think they can seal off the border. Spending more money to build fences and hire more border guards is nothing but a waste of money that will have little impact. Which by the way is what our government does best waste money. The solution is not difficult. No public services should be provided to illegals. Employers and responsible parities should be fined for hiring illegals. Illegals should be removed (maybe fined also) with an active effort to catch them instead of ignoring them and they should not be allowed legally to return. More immigrants should be legally allowed into the U.S. particularly those willing to invest in the U.S. and temporary work visas should be allowed if the labor market requires it. 

2) Free market capitalism in its purist form does not work(Our recent economic crisis).

During your life time we have never been close to free market capitalism. Government interferes in almost every aspect of our lives to the overall determent of society. Our recent problems have everything to do with government intervention, intrusion, manipulation and distortion of the market, not with capitalism. Those who want more government in our lives (and Bush is part of that wave) are seeing the consequences, which will have a lasting effect of more corruption, hardship, turmoil, debt and decline. The vast majority of our politicians want power, control and favors. They are not men of ideas or the answer to our problems. By knowing history and human nature one can predict the general future outcomes of our policies and it’s not good, I’m very pessimistic about the future of the U.S. and I consider myself an optimistic person.

[Researcher]

The government can’t even keep drugs out prison and you think they can seal off the border. Spending more money to build fences and hire more border guards is nothing but a waste of money that will have little impact. Which by the way is what our government does best waste money. The solution is not difficult. No public services should be provided to illegals. Employers and responsible parities should be fined for hiring illegals. Illegals should be removed (maybe fined also) with an active effort to catch them instead of ignoring them and they should not be allowed legally to return. More immigrants should be legally allowed into the U.S. particularly those willing to invest in the U.S. and temporary work visas should be allowed if the labor market requires it. 

 

  I agree with you.The government should start enforcing it's own laws.

During your life time we have never been close to free market capitalism. Government interferes in almost every aspect of our lives to the overall determent of society. Our recent problems have everything to do with government intervention, intrusion, manipulation and distortion of the market, not with capitalism. Those who want more government in our lives (and Bush is part of that wave) are seeing the consequences, which will have a lasting effect of more corruption, hardship, turmoil, debt and decline. The vast majority of our politicians want power, control and favors. They are not men of ideas or the answer to our problems. By knowing history and human nature one can predict the general future outcomes of our policies and it’s not good, I’m very pessimistic about the future of the U.S. and I consider myself an optimistic person.

   
      The government didn't force people to buy houses they couldn't afford.The government didn't force people to invest in the financial instruments that were made up of these bad loans.The free market was allowed to create this situation just as illegals coming here for jobs is created by the free market.The governments failure here is not doing anything about it like enforcing it's own laws.


  Researcher

[Jamie]

The government didn't force people to buy houses they couldn't afford.The government didn't force people to invest in the financial instruments that were made up of these bad loans.The free market was allowed to create this situation just as illegals coming here for jobs is created by the free market.The governments failure here is not doing anything about it like enforcing it's own laws.

If people make bad investments or mistakes they need to face the consequences of this not other people who didn't do the same. In my opinion we have way too many laws and we don't properly hold criminals (those that have harmed others) accountable. I am not against people seeking a better life, but unfortunately we are not able to let everyone who wants to come to the U.S stay in the U.S without devastating consequences to our way of life.

[Ray]

The government can’t even keep drugs out prison and you think they can seal off the border. Spending more money to build fences and hire more border guards is nothing but a waste of money that will have little impact. Which by the way is what our government does best waste money. The solution is not difficult. No public services should be provided to illegals. Employers and responsible parities should be fined for hiring illegals. Illegals should be removed (maybe fined also) with an active effort to catch them instead of ignoring them and they should not be allowed legally to return. More immigrants should be legally allowed into the U.S. particularly those willing to invest in the U.S. and temporary work visas should be allowed if the labor market requires it. 

 During your life time we have never been close to free market capitalism. Government interferes in almost every aspect of our lives to the overall determent of society. Our recent problems have everything to do with government intervention, intrusion, manipulation and distortion of the market, not with capitalism. Those who want more government in our lives (and Bush is part of that wave) are seeing the consequences, which will have a lasting effect of more corruption, hardship, turmoil, debt and decline. The vast majority of our politicians want power, control and favors. They are not men of ideas or the answer to our problems. By knowing history and human nature one can predict the general future outcomes of our policies and it’s not good, I’m very pessimistic about the future of the U.S. and I consider myself an optimistic person.

Jamie, you’re dead wrong about the fence. The fence works very well here in San Diego, once they got past the endless BS by the Democrats who did everything to stop it, including the standard lies that it would never work so why waste the money.

The first fence was NOT expensive, and in fact was dirt-cheap. They used salvaged portable steel landing mats left over from the Vietnam War, and used military assets to do the welding/construction. The new triple-layer fence is relatively inexpensive also, despite what the whiners tell.

Instead of hiring a bunch more border patrol agents, they initially simply just moved every agent in the sector right up to the line. That solved 80-90% of the problem overnight.

Instead of having the smugglers cross every night, steal vans & trucks, load them up in Mexico with drugs and aliens, then simply drive through the unprotected border, now they have to spend big bucks digging tunnels. It takes them months to construct a tunnel and the drug flow has been slowed to a trickle in this sector.

Of course you’re never going to get 100% of the contraband and illegal aliens, but we have definitely put a HUGE dent in the problem down here. At least they don’t steal our vehicles and break into our homes like they did just a few years ago!

So I recommend that you stop listening to the whiny, dishonest liberals, and come down to see for yourself how well the fence is working. It's definitely money well spent!

Everything else in your post I agree with.

Ray

[Jamie]

Jamie, you’re dead wrong about the fence. The fence works very well here in San Diego, once they got past the endless BS by the Democrats who did everything to stop it, including the standard lies that it would never work so why waste the money.

The first fence was NOT expensive, and in fact was dirt-cheap. They used salvaged portable steel landing mats left over from the Vietnam War, and used military assets to do the welding/construction. The new triple-layer fence is relatively inexpensive also, despite what the whiners tell.

Instead of hiring a bunch more border patrol agents, they initially simply just moved every agent in the sector right up to the line. That solved 80-90% of the problem overnight.

Instead of having the smugglers cross every night, steal vans & trucks, load them up in Mexico with drugs and aliens, then simply drive through the unprotected border, now they have to spend big bucks digging tunnels. It takes them months to construct a tunnel and the drug flow has been slowed to a trickle in this sector.

Of course you’re never going to get 100% of the contraband and illegal aliens, but we have definitely put a HUGE dent in the problem down here. At least they don’t steal our vehicles and break into our homes like they did just a few years ago!

So I recommend that you stop listening to the whiny, dishonest liberals, and come down to see for yourself how well the fence is working. It's definitely money well spent!

Everything else in your post I agree with.

One can always create more difficult barriers for example around San Diego and large cities and improve the conditions for that area, but to think that we can do it for the whole border is not practical and it is expensive in manpower. Again we can’t keep drugs out of prison, yet I am to believe we can stop most of the illegals from entering the expansive borders of the U.S. National parks along the border should also not be sealed off from Mexico there should be corridors for animals. I understand there is a high percentage of illegals that are here using legitimate visas and overstaying their visit. I would be interested if anyone knew the number and the percentage of those that don’t leave.

The best way to stop the flow is to end the benefits of being here and increasing the risk of being caught. I’ve lived in Southern California most of my life. Everyone knows where the immigrants work and seek work. If you want to get them you can. Any policeman can randomly stop me in a car and test me if I am drunk, because I may pose a danger to public safety, but we can’t verify if someone is legal who may have a contagious disease and pose a danger to public safety.

If you weren’t listening to whiny, dishonest liberals who believe spending money and bigger government programs is the answer to all our problems you would know government spending is rarely well spent

We can be sure of one thing, government won’t come up with any practical solutions that any group of men here could do in a couple of hours. 

[fathertime]

Our country encourages business to cheat by winking and nodding to the illegal immigrants and encouraging them to stay here.  It turns many honest law abiding businessmen into broke suckers. 

Another reason I don’t want these 15 million illegals legalized because once they are, they can likely vote and they will may very well sway elections towards democrats for a long time and I don’t like most democratic policies and I don’t want a group that broke the laws to get here, to be now determining how the country is run. 

Fathertime!

[Ray]

I know several Border Patrol agents here in San Diego and they are hard-working and dedicated to their job. But they are all very frustrated with the non-enforcement policies of Bush and much more so now with Obama.

*****
Immigration enforcement union took a no-confidence vote in its leadership

By: Joel S. Gehrke Jr.
Special to the Examiner
08/04/10 5:35 PM EDT

Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents believe overwhelmingly that their department leadership has become so politicized as to compromise the effectiveness of ICE and the safety of American people. Their union has released a letter announcing its recent unanimous “vote of no confidence” in ICE agency heads, accusing them of “misleading the American public” regarding illegal immigration in order to further a pro-amnesty agenda.

In June, the National Immigration and Customs Enforcement Council — an AFL-CIO affiliate — and affiliated local councils cast a unanimous 259-0 vote of no confidence in ICE Director John Morton and Assistant Director Phyllis Coven. In a letter announcing the vote, the National Council criticized the directors for “misguided and reckless initiatives,” and said their leaders have “abandoned the Agency’s core mission of enforcing United States immigration laws and providing for public safety, and have instead directed their attention to campaigning for policies and programs related to amnesty.”

Janice Kephart at the Center for Immigration Studies has the letter, which includes several biting indictments of ICE failures by ICE agents. For instance:

Senior ICE leadership dedicates more time to campaigning for immigration reforms aimed at large scale amnesty legislation, than advising the American public and Federal lawmakers on the severity of the illegal immigration problem, and the need for more manpower and resources within the ICE ERO to address it. ICE ERO is currently overwhelmed by the massive criminal alien problem in the United States resulting in the large-scale release of criminals back into local communities.

Kind of puts the Arizona illegal immigration enforcement in perspective, doesn’t it?

While ICE reports internally that more than 90 percent of ICE detainees are first encountered in jails after they are arrested by local police for criminal charges, ICE senior leadership misrepresents this information publicly in order to portray ICE detainees as being non-criminal in nature to support the Administration’s position on amnesty and relaxed security at ICE detention facilities.

The majority of ICE ERO Officers are prohibited from making street arrests or enforcing United States immigration laws outside of the institutional (jail) setting. This has effectively created “amnesty through policy” for anyone illegally in the United States who has not been arrested by another agency for a criminal violation.

Good to know.
*****

[Ray]

The best way to stop the flow is to end the benefits of being here and increasing the risk of being caught. I’ve lived in Southern California most of my life. Everyone knows where the immigrants work and seek work. If you want to get them you can. Any policeman can randomly stop me in a car and test me if I am drunk, because I may pose a danger to public safety, but we can’t verify if someone is legal who may have a contagious disease and pose a danger to public safety.

If you weren’t listening to whiny, dishonest liberals who believe spending money and bigger government programs is the answer to all our problems you would know government spending is rarely well spent

We can be sure of one thing, government won’t come up with any practical solutions that any group of men here could do in a couple of hours. 

Yes, I agree that the ideal way to control illegal immigration would be to cut off all benefits, freebies, and job opportunities for the leaches who sneak across the border. HOWEVER COMMA as a California resident you should know that is NOT a viable option. Irregardless of what the voters in California want, all it takes is one leftist activist judge to throw out our votes because he/she doesn’t like the result. Remember Proposition 187?

I don’t even know why we bother to vote anymore. Our votes mean NOTHING and the leftist whacko judges, along with their Democrat cheering section, control everything. Remember we voted to keep the ban on gay marriages? I told you all that it will be overturned by some fagot judge and guess what? It was just thrown out by an openly gay federal judge.

And there is virtually no risk of being caught and deported in these stupid “sanctuary cities” like San Francisco and LA.

The triple layer fence in San Diego ended up costing about $1.7M per mile to build. For me, that was a bargain! All this whining and crying abut how expensive it will be to fence and patrol the border is making me sick to my stomach. This country is becoming a bunch of pansy-asses with no backbone to enforce our own borders.

Ray

[Ray]

Jamie:

National parks along the border should also not be sealed off from Mexico there should be corridors for animals.

HUH? You’re talking Mules & Coyotes, right?   ROFLMAO!



And I suppose those “animal” droppings they leave behind make good fertilizer to help keep the parks green, right?




 

[Ray]

[Researcher]

He is like the majority of people in the United States that don't understand the fundamentals of economics and business. Which is why people like Frank and Pelosi can strive and enact policies that hurt the country. It sounds so nice to "help" people. What is ignored is that this help comes through force, and the behavioral changes to those being helped only increase their desire for more help. We now have a growing population who demand this help and traitorous politicians willing to give it to them in exchange for their support. Almost everything that made the U.S an economic and cultural powerhouse is being altered in order to fit in with the International community and to accommodate the lazy and unproductive. The U.S is in such a hole that without drastic changes our children will be reading, The Rise and Fall of the American Empire.

      Sorry Jaime, but you are way off on that one.It's a scary thought to me that people like Pelosi and Frank are in charge of anything.I don't agree with pretty much everything they believe.I think if illegals are given amnesty and the border is left open it will be those two who will be behind it.Sorry to disappoint you and Jeff S but I am not a bleeding hearted liberal.I am also not a right wing narrow minded kind of person either.I like to think for myself  which is why I like to discuss topics with intelligent and respectful people like JM and Capstone.I try to keep things very simple so that even people like you and Jeff S can understand but it isn't always easy.It does surprise me that some people get so upset by statements like "a free market in its purest form doesn't work" or "people that hire illegals are exploiting them" but they just don't like it because it is true.

    Researcher

[Jamie]

Yes, I agree that the ideal way to control illegal immigration would be to cut off all benefits, freebies, and job opportunities for the leaches who sneak across the border. HOWEVER COMMA as a California resident you should know that is NOT a viable option.

The triple layer fence in San Diego ended up costing about $1.7M per mile to build. For me, that was a bargain! All this whining and crying abut how expensive it will be to fence and patrol the border is making me sick to my stomach. This country is becoming a bunch of pansy-asses with no backbone to enforce our own borders.

I agree what I said is not viable. I have no confidence in our government to do anything right. I saw today where an illegal Bolivian killed a nun while driving drunk in VA. He was arrested before 2 years ago for drug driving also and released while waiting his day in court. That is the competency level of our government. It is not an unusual circumstance, it is how our government operates at every level, with incompetence, force and harm. So instead of confiscating everything this man had as a fine and payment for his expulsion and immediately sending him off to Bolivia the next day. We let him go and our bloated bureaucracy is unable to process this man during a 2 year period. Do you think anyone in government is going to pay for this, of course not. A lady is dead and the government workers will be getting their yearly raise and accumulate time off. No solutions are viable in such a society as we now have.

The bigger the government the more corrupt and destructive its influence on society becomes and that is a fact not a viewpoint. I was watching a show from Spain ( a socialist country that the U.S. is trying to mimic) and they were doing an exposé on the growing number of people who steal in Spain and that make their living from stealing. In Spain, if you steal less than $400 euros you will not have to face a jail term. The worst penalty you can get is a $200 euro fine. Well it doesn't take much to figure this can be a profitable occupation. The insanity of such a laws is what government does best. Everyday there are more laws, and after a while you can't create any more good laws, because you simply run out of good laws to make. But the law making does not stop, so the only thing that is left is to make bad laws, and that is the state where we are at. The larger the government the more immoral it will be, and history show this.

[Jamie]

Jamie:
HUH? You’re talking Mules & Coyotes, right?   ROFLMAO!
And I suppose those “animal” droppings they leave behind make good fertilizer to help keep the parks green, right?

Problem with people doesn't mean we can sacrifice the diversity of animals we have in our National Parks. I was thinking more like Mexican wolfs and jaguars.

[piglett]

I was thinking more like Mexican wolfs and jaguars.

Tell them that without the proper paperwork that they can't cross either 


piglett

[fathertime]

I’m not sure why everybody is arguing over minor points here.  Except for jm21-2, most of us want the same thing which is for the illegals to be sent back to their home country.  It is just a matter of how it is to be done.  I think we should finish building the wall and we should also crack down on businesses and cut off the welfare for them as well.  If those 3 things happen (which they won’t), then the problem would be solved quickly and we can figure out how to get the additional temporary labor here without having to support an entire underclass of people. 

I think it is all of us VS our damn govt. which refuses to serve it's citizens.

Fathertime!

[Capstone]

I’m not sure why everybody is arguing over minor points here. 

Very true my good man - this post has gone on for 12 pages now and we have strayed so far from the original topic that most of us have probably forgotten what is actually was. We all have our own opinion and none of the rest of us are going to change it, so I am all for putting this dead horse out to pasture.

[michaelb]

The first fence was NOT expensive, and in fact was dirt-cheap. They used salvaged portable steel landing mats left over from the Vietnam War, and used military assets to do the welding/construction. The new triple-layer fence is relatively inexpensive also, despite what the whiners tell.

Is the 1,700,000 per mile (this figure comes from your other recent post), for the original fence using surplus material and military labor or for the newer one, presumably using new material and general contractor labor?

[Ray]

That's for the new 14+ miles of triple-layer fence with lighting, cameras, sensors, etc., at $25million. But that was started in 1993 I beleive.

For those who (falsely) claim that the new fence is ineffective, apprehensions along the area of the new fence went down by a factor of 20 from 100,000 in 1993 to 5,000 in 2005.

Ray

[michaelb]

So those are 1993 prices, figure that they're double or more by now. It's 1271 miles from Brownsville to San Diego. Less the 14+ cited, call it 1250 miles to go. 1250 miles times $3.4 million per mile = four billion, two hundred fifty million dollars. Man, that's a lot of money. Some people (I'm thinking that Ray is in that group) would say "Still a bargain at twice the price."

I can't dispute Ray's figures about its effectiveness in the San Diego area, however. In fact, there is even a term for it, called the 'squeeze the balloon' theory. Every illegal crosser who no longer crosses at San Diego is simply crossing some other place, where the fence isn't.

I'm not a 'fence guy' because I think il will cost too much and won't work as well as the proponents think it will. Sure, it looks like its working in San Diego, but that's just because as I said, they simply go cross somewhere else. If it were everywhere, there would just be more ladders and tunnels, more breeches and more bribed border guards (What? Crooked law enforcement personell?  Our guys? No! Say it aint so, Joe). A hassle for the illegal crossers, to be sure, but not one they can't over come.

Real solution is to cut off the reasons why they come, which is benifits and employment. As for 'amnisty' to those already here, I've got two step daughters still waiting for their family based visas to come through, why the &^%$ should some clown who just showed up (uninvited, no less) be given cuts in the line ahead of them? Or ahead of your girlfriend, or for that matter, ahead of any other foreigner who desires to enter the US but didn't break the rules?