Arizona Immigration Enforcement Law

[jm21-2]

Same old tired arguments, based on BS instead of facts.

ONCE AGAIN, the fence works very well, despite the leftist propaganda to the contrary.

Which fence? Most of the fences have holes in them, holes under them, and ladders leaned up against them. All signs of their efficacy.

If the border were completely fenced, those illegals would need to grow gills to walk around it.   

Or perhaps they would have to acquire exotic and expensive tools like bolt  cutters, wire cutters, shovels, or ladders. C'mon now.

Cut welfare benefits for illegals? HUH? You would probably need a constitutional amendment. Democrats and leftist activist judges will not allow cuts in benefits for illegals. We tried that before in California with ballot initiatives, and they were promptly thrown out by activist courts. The activist judges and the leftists won’t even let you ask for documents to prove legal status…they just scream RACISM!

Not saying it's an easy battle.

Besides, welfare benefits are only a tiny part of the money we flush down the toilet supporting illegals and their offspring. Add up the costs to education, medical care, subsidized public transportation, etc., etc., etc., and is it any wonder that California and its sanctuary cities are flat broke?

Whoa, when did public education, medical care, and subsidized public transportation not become welfare benefits? Personally I would love to eliminate all of that, even for USCs.

And it didn’t cost Arizona a fortune to get their illegals moving out, did it? If the only place willing to coddle them were back home, a hell of a lot would pack up and leave on their own. I’m sick of giving away freebies to people who have NO RIGHT to be here, while the leftist whiners make excuses why we don’t need a fence or any other enforcement of our borders.

Didn't say it cost them a fortune. I said it just shifted the problem to other states. If all states simultaneously passed a similar law the illegals probably wouldn't move at all.

Probably the easiest way to begin to solve most all of this country’s current problems would be to deport the ACLU… 

Often deporting the ACLU seems like a great idea. I really think the Sierra club should be kicked out before them though.

[Researcher]

   Hey JM, I have to disagree with you on illegal immigration being a moral issue.There is more to it than that, national security for one.That is one reason we have laws and an immigration department to start with.My wife had all kinds of tests done and was checked out to make sure she wasn't going to be a threat to anyone here.Not to mention I was checked out as well.I also had to prove I could take care of her financially so she wouldn't become a burden to the public here in the US.I understand all of that and don't have a problem with it.It isn't a matter of morality.As far as costs go, our government doesn't seem to have a problem spending money on invading and rebuilding other countries in the name of national security.There shouldn't be a problem of deporting those that aren't supposed to be here.



  Researcher

[Researcher]

  I do have a couple of solutions to these problems though.

  1)The US could invade itself.Then have Haliburton rebuild.


  2)As far as securing the borders, just have middle aged guys start to smuggle hot babes to come here and cook and clean for them and the feminazis would have the borders sealed up tighter than a drum!

    Researcher

[fathertime]

Which fence? Most of the fences have holes in them, holes under them, and ladders leaned up against them. All signs of their efficacy.

Jm-21-2,  I'd like to at least keep the arguments accurate here.  Nobody is talking about that barbed wire fence that couldn't keep a lazy cow from toppling and crossing the international border.  The REAL triple fence is imposing, but even so, we need laws enforced which is what AZ is trying to do, and workplace enforcement.  Our pathetic leadership (clinton, Bush, OBama) just refuse to take any meaningful action on this issue.
We seem to have 100's of billions of dollars being blown in wars in part to rebuild other countries, it seems to me that our priorities are so fouled up it is as if leadership was intentionally destroying this nation.

My belief is that leadership has made a calculation that the general public is not going to do anything about their refusal to enforce.  To this point they are correct, but trampling on the people and individual states will eventually lead to unrest, I suppose they have a plan on how to deal with that too though...
Fathertime!  

[jm21-2]

   Hey JM, I have to disagree with you on illegal immigration being a moral issue.There is more to it than that, national security for one.That is one reason we have laws and an immigration department to start with.My wife had all kinds of tests done and was checked out to make sure she wasn't going to be a threat to anyone here.Not to mention I was checked out as well.I also had to prove I could take care of her financially so she wouldn't become a burden to the public here in the US.I understand all of that and don't have a problem with it.It isn't a matter of morality.As far as costs go, our government doesn't seem to have a problem spending money on invading and rebuilding other countries in the name of national security.There shouldn't be a problem of deporting those that aren't supposed to be here.



  Researcher

National security? Most of the attacks from terrorists within the US where USCs, legal immigrants, or over-stayed legal visas. I'm not sure what we have to be afraid of.

m-21-2,  I'd like to at least keep the arguments accurate here.  Nobody is talking about that barbed wire fence that couldn't keep a lazy cow from toppling and crossing the international border.  The REAL triple fence is imposing, but even so, we need laws enforced which is what AZ is trying to do, and workplace enforcement.  Our pathetic leadership (clinton, Bush, OBama) just refuse to take any meaningful action on this issue.
We seem to have 100's of billions of dollars being blown in wars in part to rebuild other countries, it seems to me that our priorities are so fouled up it is as if leadership was intentionally destroying this nation.

My belief is that leadership has made a calculation that the general public is not going to do anything about their refusal to enforce.  To this point they are correct, but trampling on the people and individual states will eventually lead to unrest, I suppose they have a plan on how to deal with that too though...
Fathertime! 

I hope USCs will fight for major reform. At this point it would pretty much mean an overthrow of our current government. We've done that before though so why not now?

[Jeff S]

Yeah wire cutters won't exactly do the job. They'd have to resort to trebouchets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67fFDiPRsrk&feature=related

Well presumably the Arizona law wouldn't just question those who speak Spanish. Don't you suppose they'd question a 30 year old Yemenese with an expired student visa to take flying lessons after he was stopped for a DUI coming out of a strip club?

[Ray]

Which fence? Most of the fences have holes in them, holes under them, and ladders leaned up against them. All signs of their efficacy.

jm,

Turn off MSNBC, stop falling for the leftist lies, and go down and see the fence for yourself.

You’re so gullible!

[jm21-2]

jm,

Turn off MSNBC, stop falling for the leftist lies, and go down and see the fence for yourself.

You’re so gullible!

Which fence is "the fence"? South of San Diego? There's nothing proved until that fence stretches from the pacific to the gulf.

Again, I haven't had cable since I was 18. Not really sure what specific MSNBC episodes you are referring to.

[Researcher]

National security? Most of the attacks from terrorists within the US where USCs, legal immigrants, or over-stayed legal visas. I'm not sure what we have to be afraid of.

        I don't recall any of the 9/11 terrorists being US citizens.They were mostly Saudi citizens.I do recall hearing of one that couldn't make it to the US because USCIS denied his visa because they thought he would overstay.

       Not sure what we have to be afraid of? Well, there was talk of many threats after 9/11.Anthrax, "dirty bomb", etc...Just substitute any of the drugs that come across the border with that stuff and you have something to be afraid of.Not to mention that anyone can enter the US unchecked.

       Immigration does alot of checking when bringing a spouse here.They sure think there is something to be afraid of.


       Anyway, I'm all for a big fence or whatever it takes to seal off the border.


       Researcher

[Ray]

Which fence is "the fence"? South of San Diego? There's nothing proved until that fence stretches from the pacific to the gulf.

Again, I haven't had cable since I was 18. Not really sure what specific MSNBC episodes you are referring to.

Which fence?? The one in Alaska of course... DUH!

Exactly which fence have you been babbling about all these months? You don’t even have a clue what we are talking about, do you?

If you don't even know which border fence to discuss, then why don't you debate a subject on which you have even a tiny bit of knowledge? You’re only showing your ignorance on immigration issues.

No cable? Oh, must be satellite then.   

If you don't watch NBC's leftist propaganda, then why do you have all of the liberal talking points on immigration and the border fence committed to memory. You must be getting indoctrinated somewhere.   

Side note: Are you going to get cable when your new spouse arrives and wants to watch Chinese Television? 

Ray

[JimD]

Alternatively states could stop this shilly-shallying around and just offer a bounty on illegal alien scalps like the Mexican state of Sonora did for Apache scalps in 1835.

[fathertime]

Which fence is "the fence"? South of San Diego? There's nothing proved until that fence stretches from the pacific to the gulf.
 

well jm21-2, many of us would like to see that triple border fence stretched all the way from the sea to Texas, but for some reason our govt won't do it.  We certainly have the manpower, materials, and desire to get it done.  It would appear the leadership would rather spend money on 'more important' things, such as rebuilding other countries, welfare(for illegals kids), and campaign ads. 

I hope USCs will fight for major reform. At this point it would pretty much mean an overthrow of our current government. We've done that before though so why not now?

I'm convinced that our govt is no longer working properly.  Hopefully they will recognize this themselves and fix the system or perform a self-overthrow, before the people get agitated enough to attempt it themselves.

Fathertime!

[jm21-2]

There have been many fences proposed. Most of them were a joke. I mentioned a Penn & Teller episode a while back where they hired some illegals to build a section of the fence that was currently proposed and then had one team of 2 try to get over it, one team of 2 try to go through it, one team of 2 try to go under it. Took them a couple minutes.

No USC terrorists? Remember the Oklahoma City bombing?

I watch stuff on Hulu or similar services if I have to. I haven't had any desire to watch Fox or MSNBC though. She uses a Chinese program that streams video, can't remember the name. Pretty cool stuff. I can't use it much since I can't read Chinese.

Any 'talking points' that may have been ingrained in me by the media on immigration issues would have been from Stossel or Penn & Teller (libertarian shows). I listen to some talk radio on KIRO FM too I guess but don't take the hosts very seriously. They are usually too emotional and don't care enough about facts/economics.

EDIT:
Forgot Stossel was on Fox. So I guess I'm more of a Fox news than an MSNBC?

[Alabamaboy!]

Another good idea would be to put some of the border patrol agents on the damn border rather than 25 miles north of the border on  Interstate 8 at a check point that everyone knows about. The only effect it is having is slowing down legitimate traffic for people to travel back and forth from AZ to San Diego. Do they really think the bad guys are going to just roll up there in their cars waiting to get busted???

It is ridiculous. There are usually 15 Border Patrol agents at those sites, with a few of them sleeping in front of everyone, a bunch of others laughing, joking, talking among themselves. And two guys waving everyone through without asking for anything. I have had Mexicans, Colombians, and Filipinos in my vehicle everytime and have never been asked for anything. At least 100 check points in all.

I also have clients who brag to me they are working as BP Agents, and make a ton of money and do not even speak Spanish! And one guy who had the balls to tell me he had gotten a degree online because he "studies" and does all his required work while he is "on the job" as a BP agent in the desert! He even got a lot of overtime pay because he was volunteering for extra work, because he had a nice quiet place to study! These guys get pay and benefits that are outrageous.

[fathertime]

Another good idea would be to put some of the border patrol agents on the damn border rather than 25 miles north of the border on  Interstate 8 at a check point that everyone knows about. The only effect it is having is slowing down legitimate traffic for people to travel back and forth from AZ to San Diego. Do they really think the bad guys are going to just roll up there in their cars waiting to get busted???

It is ridiculous. There are usually 15 Border Patrol agents at those sites, with a few of them sleeping in front of everyone, a bunch of others laughing, joking, talking among themselves. And two guys waving everyone through without asking for anything. I have had Mexicans, Colombians, and Filipinos in my vehicle everytime and have never been asked for anything. At least 100 check points in all.

I also have clients who brag to me they are working as BP Agents, and make a ton of money and do not even speak Spanish! And one guy who had the balls to tell me he had gotten a degree online because he "studies" and does all his required work while he is "on the job" as a BP agent in the desert! He even got a lot of overtime pay because he was volunteering for extra work, because he had a nice quiet place to study! These guys get pay and benefits that are outrageous.

Great post AB!


These checkpoints are truly stupid, exactly like you said, even illegals are not stupid enough to try to drive through a prearranged checkpoint.  Although 99 times out of 100 they aren’t going to be stopped anyway, and even if they were stopped would they actually be detained?  Given the lax enforcement of any law pertaining to illegals, it is questionable if having these checkpoints is worth the sometimes miles long backup they create for all us legal folks. 

I have a buddy here that works for the city of Los Angeles in the street maintenance division.  During his 8 hour shift he works less then 2 hours.  Daily he goes to the gym, after working out vigorously he spends time in the hot tub.  He naps in the afternoon and checks back in at closing time.  When govt. runs these sort of outfits, it is typical that nothing much gets done and nobody cares very much.  I’d like to see some private companies take over border enforcement, and have them get paid by the number of illegals they catch.  Of course if they got too good there would be very illegals crossing and they wouldn’t get paid much after that, so there would also have to be some sort of incentive for a job well done. 

Fathertime!

[Researcher]

   Oklahoma City bombing ??I didn't know that was connected to 9/11 and the fact that the US invaded 2 middle eastern countries.Oh well, might as well include Lee Harvey Oswald and every other wacko since 1776.

  Here is an important point: For the most part the US is hated worldwide.There are some groups who would love to come here and do us harm.Having a border that is wide open just makes it that much more easy to do.We have immigration laws for a reason but it's like the US has all the windows locked tight but the back door is wide open.It doesn't add up because it is nothing but politics.The border could be sealed off easily.The government needs to stop worrying about the Hispanic vote and do the right thing.


    Researcher

[jm21-2]

Oklahoma City bombing ??I didn't know that was connected to 9/11 and the fact that the US invaded 2 middle eastern countries.Oh well, might as well include Lee Harvey Oswald and every other wacko since 1776.

If we're talking about terrorism then I would say Tim McVeigh is almost certainly a terrorist who killed a lot of people. What would you call him, a cuddly bunny bomber?

I was going to respond to the rest of your post but I'm pretty busy, so let me just say that even if everything you say is accurate, who cares? I'd rather have people wait a half hour less at the airport and have a quicker immigration process and risk another 9/11. Or how about letting everyone carry weapons on an airline? The passengers have historically been pretty good at stopping plane jackers.

And with the money we saved by not paying for all this security that doesn't really work well anyways, we could do something that was more beneficial. Like I dunno, end world hunger. And then people would like us and we wouldn't have to worry as much.

[fathertime]

If we're talking about terrorism then I would say Tim McVeigh is almost certainly a terrorist who killed a lot of people. What would you call him, a cuddly bunny bomber?

I was going to respond to the rest of your post but I'm pretty busy, so let me just say that even if everything you say is accurate, who cares? I'd rather have people wait a half hour less at the airport and have a quicker immigration process and risk another 9/11. Or how about letting everyone carry weapons on an airline? The passengers have historically been pretty good at stopping plane jackers.

And with the money we saved by not paying for all this security that doesn't really work well anyways, we could do something that was more beneficial. Like I dunno, end world hunger. And then people would like us and we wouldn't have to worry as much.

Well jm21-2 this marks the post where you have completely lost me.  T. McVeigh has absolutely nothing to do with the border being open or closed and nobody said he was a cuddly bunny rabbit.  It would appear that your point is that since there are American born terrorists, the border should be wide open to give foreign born terrorists equal rights to terrorize the nation.

Your comments about saving money on security forces and using the money to end world hunger remind me of what a Miss American beauty contestant would say.  If we didn't have security forces we would not have a sovereign nation and everybody would be crawling here from the world around until we reached an equilibrium with the other nations at a much lower level.  I'm not interesting in LETTING that happen!  I would like for the citizens of this nation to continue to have a reasonably good standard of living.

Fathertime!

[Researcher]

   Keeping out International Terrorists is only one good reason to secure the border with Mexico.
People carrying deadly diseases that can spread rapidly, drug smugglers, people who want a free ride, etc...the list goes on and on. The US will continue on its downwardly spiralling path until people get tired of it and decide to change things, like they have in Arizona. It's a shame they have to oppose our federal government to do so.



  Researcher

[jm21-2]

My point is that sealing the borders doesn't end threats of terrorism, since we have our own breed as well.

I of course am behind some sort of security force. But we could have a lot less than we do now and still be fine and definitely don't need more. The security forces we have now do little more than slow things down for normal law-abiding people.

Immigration encourages competition, encourages new business growth, which in turn means more jobs for Americans and more wealth for Americans. A lot of our biggest companies were founded by immigrants and a lot of our economic booms were fueled by immigrants.

So we seal the borders off, and then we have to tighten immigration. So we get less tourists coming and thus less business. And we can wait around for years while our fiance visa is processed and pay insane fees. Oh boy.

Safety comes at a price.

[Researcher]

  Well JM I have to respectfully disagree with every point you just made.Of course we can't stop every maniac who wants to blow something up but there is no comparison between the organized international terrorist groups and the rogue nutjobs we have here.Just because we can't completely stop these terrorists doesn't mean we should leave them an open door to come in so they can do as much damage as they want.


    As far as immigrants and businesses I agree, but they are not illegal immigrants.I really don't think bodegas and Mexican restaurants have created many jobs for US citizens either.If these illegals were so great many states like Arizona wouldn't be trying to get rid of them.

   The days of opening up this and deregulating that are over.We just learned that lesson with the last economic bubble that exploded.We can't have open borders either.These kinds of things only lead to problems on down the road.

   As far as waiting for a visa, my wife and I were seperated for a year for this.If that is what it takes to keep bad people out then I don't mind. I also don't mind removing my shoes when I go through airport security either.


   Researcher

[fathertime]

  Well JM I have to respectfully disagree with every point you just made.Of course we can't stop every maniac who wants to blow something up but there is no comparison between the organized international terrorist groups and the rogue nutjobs we have here.Just because we can't completely stop these terrorists doesn't mean we should leave them an open door to come in so they can do as much damage as they want.


    As far as immigrants and businesses I agree, but they are not illegal immigrants.I really don't think bodegas and Mexican restaurants have created many jobs for US citizens either.If these illegals were so great many states like Arizona wouldn't be trying to get rid of them.

   The days of opening up this and deregulating that are over.We just learned that lesson with the last economic bubble that exploded.We can't have open borders either.These kinds of things only lead to problems on down the road.

   As far as waiting for a visa, my wife and I were seperated for a year for this.If that is what it takes to keep bad people out then I don't mind. I also don't mind removing my shoes when I go through airport security either.


   Researcher

Wow jm21-2  There is virtually nothing you have said that I can agree with. 

First off, I notice you continue to use the word ‘immigrants’, we are not talking about immigrants here, we are talking about ‘illegal immigrants’, which are people who have intentionally broke the law to come here and are not scrutinized in any way.  Regular immigrants are screened for disease, a criminal background check, and are not always accepted.  Illegals just tell us to eff off and come over regardless of what we want. 

So you think we need LESS people trying to prevent illegal immigrants from crossing.  How exactly does that make the problem go away or get better? 

Now if we seal off our borders, how exactly does that make tourism decline?  What does illegal immigration have to do with tourism at all?  How exactly does shipping illegals out make our fiance visa’s go any slower and cost us more?  None of this makes sense to me.  As a nation we need to have consequences for people who come here illegally.  Our wives have paid the money, gone through the necessary checks, and are here legally.  I don’t like that some random illiterate can come here, spit out 6 kids (that are now all legal citizens), use welfare taxpayer dollars for the kids, carry no medical/auto insurance, and clog up our school system and now protest on the street that they are not being treated fairly.  I am absolutely disgusted that those less effected by the illegals are so touch-feely about the subject.  I noticed that many of the protesters blocking the streets today are little college kids pretending as though this is the 1960’s and we are fighting for civil rights for blacks (which was actually a righteous fight), that was a different subject altogether.  The two can not be compared, and this is one of the few occasions that I would like to see the police crack some skulls when regular people are  inconvenienced  and traffic is blocked for hours by these 'enlightened fools'.   

Fathertime!

[Jeff S]

I always love the... "we can't do anything about terrorism because there was once one home-grown terrorist who planted a bomb in a rented truck (and managed to make a decent boom) in Oklahome City" who claimed allegiance to as compared to....

2

6 February 1993 – World Trade Center bombing, New York City. 6 killed.
13 March 1993 – 1993 Bombay bombings. Mumbai, India. 250 dead, 700 injured.
28 July 1994 – Buenos Aires, Argentina. Vehicle suicide bombing attack against AMIA building, the local Jewish community representation. 85 dead, more than 300 injured.
24 December 1994 – Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group of Algeria and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
25 June 1996 – Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
17 November 1997 – Luxor attack, 6 armed Islamic terrorists attack tourists at Egypts famous Luxor Ruins. 68 foreign tourists killed.
14 February 1998 – Bombing in Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India. 13 bombs explode within a 12 km radius. 46 killed and over 200 injured.
7 August 1998 – 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
4 September 1999 – A series of bombing attacks in several cities of Russia, nearly 300 killed.
12 October 2000 – Attack on the USS cole in the Yemeni port of Aden.
11 September 2001 – 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.[158]
13 December 2001 – Suicide attack on Indian parliament in New Delhi by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. 7 dead, 12 injured.
27 March 2002 – Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 30 dead, 133 injured.
30 March 2002 and 24 November 2002 - Attacks on the Hindu Raghunath temple, India. Total 25 dead.
7 May 2002 – Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
24 September 2002 – Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.[159][160]
12 October 2002 – Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.[161]
16 May 2003 – Casablanca Attacks – 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafia Jihadia.
11 March 2004 – Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured (alleged link to Al-Qaeda).
1 September 2004 - Beslan school hostage crisis, approximately 344 civilians including 186 children killed.[162][163]
2 November 2004 – The murder of Theo van Gogh (film director) by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri.[164]
4 February 2005 – Muslim terrorists attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
5 July 2005 - Attack at the Hindu Ram temple at Ayodhya, India; one of the most holy sites of Hinduism. 6 dead.
7 July 2005 – Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
23 July 2005 – Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
29 October 2005 – 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings, India. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.[165]
9 November 2005 – 2005 Amman bombings. a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan. Over 60 killed and 115 injured.[166][167] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.[168]
7 March 2006 – 2006 Varanasi bombings, India. A series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi. 28 killed and over 100 injured.[169]
11 July 2006 – 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings, Mumbai, India; a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai. 209 killed and over 700 injured.
14 August 2007 – Qahtaniya bombings: Four suicide vehicle bombers massacred nearly 800 members of northern Iraq's Yazidi sect in the deadliest Iraq war's attack to date.
26 July 2008 – 2008 Ahmedabad bombings, India. Islamic terrorists detonate at least 21 explosive devices in the heart of this industrial capital, leaving at least 56 dead and 200 injured. A Muslim group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen claims responsibility. Indian authorities believe that extremists with ties to Pakistan and/or Bangladesh are likely responsible and are intent on inciting communal violence.[170] Investigation by Indian police led to the eventual arrest of a number of terrorists suspected of carrying out the blasts, most of whom belong to a well-known terrorist group, The Students Islamic Movement of India.[171]
13 September 2008 – Bombing series in Delhi, India. Pakistani extremist groups plant bombs at several places including India Gate, out of which the ones at Karol Bagh, Connaught Place and Greater Kailash explode leaving around 30 people dead and 130 injured, followed by another attack two weeks later at the congested Mehrauli area, leaving 3 people dead.
26 November 2008 – Muslim extremists kill at least 174 people and wound numerous others in a series of coordinated attacks on India's largest city and financial capital, Mumbai. A group calling itself the Deccan Mujaheddin claims responsibility, however, the government of India suspects Islamic terrorists based in Pakistan are responsible. Ajmal Kasab, one of the terrorists, was caught alive.[172][173]
25 October 2009. Baghdad, Iraq. During a terrorist attack, two bomber vehicles detonated in the Green Zone, killing at least 155 people and injuring 520.
28 October 2009 – Peshawar, Pakistan. A car bomb is detonated in a woman exclusive shopping district, and over 110 killed and over 200 injured.
5 November 2009 - Fort Hood shooting, Texas, USA. U.S. Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan, an American Muslim of Palestinian descent, shot and killed 13 people and wounded 30 others at a U.S. Army base.
3 December 2009 – Mogadishu, Somalia. A male suicide bomber disguised as a woman detonates in a hotel meeting hall. The hotel was hosting a graduation ceremony for local medical students when the blast went off, killing four government ministers as well as other civilians.[174]
1 January 2010 – Lakki Marwat, Pakistan. A suicide car bomber drove his explosive-laden vehicle into a volleyball pitch as people gathered to watch a match killing more than 100 people.[175]
1 May 2010 - New York, New York, USA. Faisal Shahzad, an Islamic Pakistani American who received U.S. citizenship in December 2009, attempted to detonate a car bomb in Times Square working with the Pakistani Taliban or Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan.
28 May 2010 - Attacks on Ahmadi Mosques Lahore, Pakistan. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed attacks on two mosques simultaneously belonging to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, killing nearly 100 and injuring many others.

Of course, I've conveniently left off all of the events in between the 1972 slaying of the Israeli Olympic team in Munich (the OLYMPICS, where all nations come in peace to bond in international sport....) and 1993 for the sake of not piling on?

"Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing [a people] to slavery." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. (*) ME 1:193, Papers 1:125

Well, maybe we should ban arresting people for murder because, after all, Jeffrey Dahmer did it and he was a blonde haired, blue eyed American born white guy?

[jm21-2]

  Well JM I have to respectfully disagree with every point you just made.Of course we can't stop every maniac who wants to blow something up but there is no comparison between the organized international terrorist groups and the rogue nutjobs we have here.Just because we can't completely stop these terrorists doesn't mean we should leave them an open door to come in so they can do as much damage as they want.

The actual guys who do the suicide missions can often be described as lunatics. GEnerally they are not a Navy Seal or anywhere near.

    As far as immigrants and businesses I agree, but they are not illegal immigrants.I really don't think bodegas and Mexican restaurants have created many jobs for US citizens either.If these illegals were so great many states like Arizona wouldn't be trying to get rid of them.

Yes, a magical pill is given out when they adjust status that makes them better/smarter people. Yes, the general public and politicians always make perfect choices.

   The days of opening up this and deregulating that are over.We just learned that lesson with the last economic bubble that exploded.We can't have open borders either.These kinds of things only lead to problems on down the road.

OK, let's put cameras on every street so we're constantly observed. And I think the market works a lot better for farm labor than it does for derivative regulation.

   As far as waiting for a visa, my wife and I were seperated for a year for this.If that is what it takes to keep bad people out then I don't mind. I also don't mind removing my shoes when I go through airport security either.

But they don't stop bad people. There have bene studies done where they show that it is actually more likely for a person committing visa fraud to get a fiance/marriage visa than for a legitimate couple because they know how to plan things out.

Reactionary tactics like taking off shoes don't make a damn bit of difference. I would much rather devote resources to catching them in advance, or like I said, just let passengers carry weapons. At least they're letting pilots have weapons now.

Wow jm21-2  There is virtually nothing you have said that I can agree with. 

First off, I notice you continue to use the word ‘immigrants’, we are not talking about immigrants here, we are talking about ‘illegal immigrants’, which are people who have intentionally broke the law to come here and are not scrutinized in any way.  Regular immigrants are screened for disease, a criminal background check, and are not always accepted.  Illegals just tell us to eff off and come over regardless of what we want. 

So you think we need LESS people trying to prevent illegal immigrants from crossing.  How exactly does that make the problem go away or get better? 

Now if we seal off our borders, how exactly does that make tourism decline?  What does illegal immigration have to do with tourism at all?  How exactly does shipping illegals out make our fiance visa’s go any slower and cost us more?  None of this makes sense to me.  As a nation we need to have consequences for people who come here illegally.  Our wives have paid the money, gone through the necessary checks, and are here legally.  I don’t like that some random illiterate can come here, spit out 6 kids (that are now all legal citizens), use welfare taxpayer dollars for the kids, carry no medical/auto insurance, and clog up our school system and now protest on the street that they are not being treated fairly.  I am absolutely disgusted that those less effected by the illegals are so touch-feely about the subject.  I noticed that many of the protesters blocking the streets today are little college kids pretending as though this is the 1960’s and we are fighting for civil rights for blacks (which was actually a righteous fight), that was a different subject altogether.  The two can not be compared, and this is one of the few occasions that I would like to see the police crack some skulls when regular people are  inconvenienced  and traffic is blocked for hours by these 'enlightened fools'.   

Can you point to a study where it shows illegal immigrants are diseased dimwits compared to legal immigrants?

About half the illegals came here legally. So if you want there to be no illegals here you really have to crack down on who gets a visa. Then do you really think if they seal off the border the border jumpers will go away? No, instead of hiring a coyote to get them across they'll hire someone to help them out with visa fraud.

So, why the heck don't you kick them out of schools, kick them off welfare, and cut off all the other welfare benefits? If they're as you say then wouldn't they just leave on their own?

I don't think we need MORE border patrol agents sitting around on the job studying for their online classes and getting paid bank. I don't think we need more politicians handing out huge government contracts to their buddies to build fences and then manage to bungle up.

Jeff S,

It's not that we can't do anything about terrorism, it's that the things we're doing (such as taking shoes off at airports) are pretty god awful stupid ways to combat terrorism. And while it might not seem much, the economic impact of taking 10-15 minutes longer at a security check for everyone who flies a plane is probably pretty damn significant.

Getting killed by a terrorist is similar odds to getting struck by lightning. Why haven't we seen proposals to install lightning rods on every telephone pole in the country to prevent the imminent and ever-present threat of being struck dead by lightning?

[Ray]

Oh boy!

I think jm is a prefect example of a brainwashed leftist know-nothing who believes all the liberal propaganda he ingests. He has all of the liberal talking points on immigration committed to memory.

Why bother to build a fence because someone will always find a way to defeat it anyway?

Why even think about deporting illegals because it will be too expensive?

Why bother trying to stop terrorists from entering the US because we had an American terrorist once?

Why not just leave our borders unprotected because illegals will try to come in anyway?

Why not give illegals everything they want because we are just too damn stupid to say no?

Why not just give our sovereignty away to any fool who walks across the border, because the leftists say it should be so?

Yep, that’s what we need folks, more moronic robots to spout the leftist agenda while having absolutely no personal knowledge of the subject they are blabbering about.

jm, you are not part of the solution, but clearly part of the problem… 

Ray