What Info Is Fair Game?

[z_k_g]

Recent developments have brought up some interesting issues concerning disclosure and fairness!

On of our esteemed PL members is faced with an interesting dilemma.  His sweetie is doing exactly what some of our members here propose.  Explore your options and have a back up plan.  Of course this means chatting and cam with other potentials, JUST IN CASE.  Is this a double standard?  Should both partners be allowed to have a back up plan?

I've seen opinions before about this subject, but in light of recent developments here, and to discuss this particular issue in detail, lets hear some opinions.

Zulu

[Jeff S]

Short answer: No - Neither are you. Either you're into her or your not. If you go wishy washy, with plan B and C and D, why would you expect her not to?

Truth is that most of the success stories (here on the Asian Board at least) didn't have backup plans. If it went to hell in a handbasket, they went home and started over again until they got it right.

I would never have gone to visit a girl in Asia with a bunch of alternates waiting in the wings, nor would I have ever put up with it in a potential wife.

Contrary to a lot of posts to the contrary, this isn't about getting some unpleasant task accomplished in the least amount of time for the least amount of money.

[Ray]

Until you are in a committed relationship, there is nothing wrong with keeping your options open.

Once you agree to an exclusive relationship, and/or are officially engaged, then keep it exclusive.

If you are going to visit your exclusive lady then the only backup plan you need is a plan to spend your time there doing other fun and interesting things that you like.

Quite a few guys here over the years have acted like total controlling jerks by demanding that a woman whom they have never met, devote all of her time to him alone, while he decides whether or not he will even bother getting on the plane to visit her. If you have no solid travel plans, have not made any commitments, then stop whining when your pen pal/chat mate communicates with other guys.



Ray

[Howard]

Zulu,

This is definitlely a devisive issue.  Me personally?  I didn't go to the Philippines untilI was sure I had met "The One".  Heck... with Gerlie, I didn't even talk to another young lady after I met her.  She wasn't just my first choice, she was my ONLY choice!  Obviously I talked with several young ladies before Gerlie found me, but I wasn't considering a trip before I met her.  For me personally, I have to make such an emotional investment to trust someone enough to consider a leap of faith that I just couldn't imagine being involved with more than one lady at that point. 

Now that's me.  I think as long as you're honest and open, you can do what suits you best.  My advice to those who can't decided is always to keep looking until you find one that is head and shoulders above the rest.  I think most here would agree that the lady they married, at one point or another, made it impossible to consider a backup plan.

I also think my story is similar to many others in regards to the fact that I knew very, very early on that Gerlie was the one.  After that it was a matter of making sure we wanted the same things out of life and expected similar things in a spouse.  Luckily for me Gerlie lowered her standards and accepted my proposal   LOL

Trust your gut, follow your heart and always try to consider your lady's point of view and you should do well.

Keep the Faith!

H

[Dave H]

No backup plan here either. I went to visit my future wife when I was certain that she was the one. At that point, we were both very certain. If it had gone sour, I would have had a nice vacation enjoying the Philippines. As it turned out, I got a great girl and the great vacation! 

Dave

[whitey]

Recent developments have brought up some interesting issues concerning disclosure and fairness!

On of our esteemed PL members is faced with an interesting dilemma.  His sweetie is doing exactly what some of our members here propose.  Explore your options and have a back up plan.  Of course this means chatting and cam with other potentials, JUST IN CASE.  Is this a double standard?  Should both partners be allowed to have a back up plan?

I've seen opinions before about this subject, but in light of recent developments here, and to discuss this particular issue in detail, lets hear some opinions.

Zulu

Interesting question.  I think the answer depends on several variables:

1) What culture are you dealing with?  I have no experience in Asia, but it seems like planning to meet more than one woman on a trip doesn't go over well there.  It's more acceptable in Latin America, but it's not like the women there are thrilled that you're shopping around either.

2) How long have you been communicating with each other?  Are you the kind of guy who goes online a couple weeks before a planned trip, chats up as many women in the least amount of time as possible, and sets up as many dates as possible?  If so, you can hardly expect her to be exclusively talking to you.

3) How serious are the two of you?  What kind of commitments have you made to each other?  If you've been emailing/chatting/video-ing/texting for several months, have developed feelings for each other, have set a firm date for visiting her country, if you are not dating or talking with other women ... then yes ... I think you can and should expect the same from her.

I was an "all-my-eggs-in-one-basket" guy.  My (now) fiance and I exchanged emails/chats/video chats online for 9 months before I went to see her in person.  During this time we grew from total strangers to friends to good friends to feeling the romantic sparks in the last couple months before my trip.

We were both only friends at that point, and consequently placed no demands on each other about exclusivity.  However, we both knew that neither of us was talking or dating anyone else, and I think it would have hurt the relationship if we had been ... at least in the last couple months.

So, my backup plan was that if things didn't click romantically, I would have a great vacation and would have the chance to meet my good friend in person.

It's been 1 year and 9 months since my first trip, I've been back 6 more times to see her in Colombia,  and if I can get all the freaking paperwork dealt with in time, we'll be married on my next trip in July.

[Jeff S]

So, my backup plan was that if things didn't click romantically, I would have a great vacation and would have the chance to meet my good friend in person.

+1

[thekfc]

I did have a backup plan but not the backup plan most people would think about.
My backup plan was to enjoy the food, the culture & learn as much as I can.

My chatting with Ayha was extensive. Not only did I chatted with her but I also chatted with her sisters, nephews, nieces & 1 of her two brother, her deaf mother, cousins & friends. The only person (s) in her immediate family that I didn't chat with was her eldest brother - he is in Pangasinan.

They just had a christening/baptism for Ahya's grandniece last week & I was the godfather.

For me the question was can I also "live" with her family - remember you are not only marrying the lady but (in a way) also her family.

After I made the decision that Ahya was the one - I stopped logging/going into my FH account, I let it expire (I am sure that there are plenty of messages that I received but never read). 

Now when ladies from before contact me - I tell them that I am not available & have found someone. A few of them have seen my pic on Facebook with me & ahya together. Some of them send me a congratulations email/ym.
There were 3 ladies (one of them the sisters) who told me that they didn't think that I would make the trip to The Philippines as all the guys that they chatted with said that they would but they didn't.

[jm21-2]

I would say that once you've bought plane tickets you both should stop shopping around. If you meet and things go well it's probably time to be deleting contacts you had a romantic interest in.

My GF is a bit of the jealous type and after our second trip I shared my screen with her over skype and let her watch me delete some old contacts (who I hadn't talk to in a long time) and an old profile on a US dating site. Made her feel more secure.

[z_k_g]

I think we got a good discussion going here.

I'm changing the rules of my post, that's my prerogative, its my post!
(Ray has taught me well!)

I'll now add some hypotheticals to my post to simulate some of the issues that have come up and devise some pro-active strategies for newbies to handle these possible twists in the road.

First hypothetical, should you create secondary accounts and check up on your sweetie to see if she is sincere?  Or have your friends to do some probing for you?

Just to make sure and prove that you are both exclusive?

Zulu

[AsphaltVoyager]

The Ronald Reagan strategy: Trust but Verify. Actually that isn't trust at all... but how will you know if you don't check? You can go along believing whatever you're told and look for any inconsistencies in the mate you're pursuing, but some may be so good at lying that they can actually keep the facts straight as well as their faces while they tell the lies to you.

This is the chief drawback in trying to establish a long-distance relationship: how to develop real trust.

[robert angel]

About two, maybe three months before my first trip to the Philippines, a gal I had been chatting with intensely every day for a long time, Charlotte, "Lotte", informed me that despite the intensity of our relationship, she didn't consider me a 'suitor'.

In the Philippines more than in the states, 'suitor' typically means pretty much near 'fiancee material'. It's complicated, but we had been through a lot--as much as you can be online and I already had nonrefundable airline tickets. She wasn't a beauty, not nearly as pretty as any of the brides I've seen here lately, but she was, and still is, a good person and I really fancied her and hoped for much more. I was seriously bummed out.

Yes, she's a nice person and odd as it may sound, we're still casual friends (through my wife's facebook, etc) and odder yet, more so with my wife, although they've never met. She's in Australia, happily married now and I'm happy for her.

Anyways, she had agreed to take a few weeks off from her work in Makati, and being an honorable person, was ready to stand by her word, but she told me in no uncertain terms that I could spend a day, a few days or all three weeks with her, or if I chose, I could feel free to go somewhere on my own, with or without another woman -- she was fine with that.

Months before I left, I knew that Lotte and I weren't going anywhere afterall and I started chatting a nice young lady named Letecia, who I had met online in a chat room sometime before and 'hit it off with' as friends, but nothing more. I explained I was coming and honestly told her the situation that had led up to it. Sure enough, once I got to Manila, Lotte was very nice--the perfect tour guide, but no kisses, no holding hands and I wasn't surprised.

So I called 'girl number two' --Letecia, and we really clicked. Letecia and I spent a few days in Manila and then a few weeks in Cebu City and she was my girl and I her guy. Alas, it wasn't meant to be forever with Letecia and I--we would have driven each other crazy and eventually we parted after I went back to the states.

I wish I had done a good enough job so that when I landed the first time, I was just with one woman in the truest sense, but it didn't work out that way. I didn't whore around or even set foot in a bar--I stuck by Letecia while there and really thought she might be the 'right one' Sadly, after we parted, she met and married a rich Englishman, marrying in the Philippines to a him and he treated she and her family extravagantly and seemed to the perfect gent.

Inexplicably, he deserted her, moving back to England forcing her from riches to rags. She'd quit a good job in Makati and moved to Cebu for the bum. She and I send holiday greetings still, but I feel awful for her plight--she can't afford an annulment, even if enough years had even passed. She can't remarry and has a young son with her life in limbo.

When I met my now wife, my trips were all about her. I had known her before any of the others and we were friends for years, before we realized that 'romance' was in the cards, so to speak.


During this time, I had chatted a lot of women and like most guys here probably, I had a lot of women's Yahoo names--'lights' to click on at any given time, and I am certain if I wanted, I could've gone to any major city or area and ask someone out for lunch and probably more, but I didn't. My focus was always with the intention of being singular in focus and I think that's how it should be if you're really serious about finding a wife.

The one bonehead mistake I made was when I was in a chat room and mentioned the hotel I was staying at, a while after I had mentioned the dates I was going to be in Manila. Women I didn't even know where waiting in the lobby, calling the hotel asking for me, etc. Some even brought their mothers, hoping to meet me and it was really embarassing--I'm lucky Letecia didn't kill me and that's one reason why we flew off to Cebu!

Whether you consider those Yahoo lights of women who quickly gave you their Yahoo IM name, plans A,B & C or A thru Z (depending on the number) 'back ups'  is a matter of semantics, I suppose, but again, I think if you're truly serious about finding a wife (and that's not everyone's purpose and that's fine too) and have done your homework, you should be able to choose a lady to whom you can be true to for your whole trip and maybe (hopefully) find out she's 'the ONE" for the long haul.

[Jeff S]

About two, maybe three months before my first trip to the Philippines, a gal I had been chatting with intensely every day for a long time, Charlotte, "Lotte", informed me that despite the intensity of our relationship, she didn't consider me a 'suitor'.

Nothing wrong with that. It's straightforward and honest. In spite of how you may feel rejected - time to move on and find someone else. That's the kind of trust and frankness you can only find in Asia IMO. I really believe the vast majority of Latinas, Eastern Europeans, or even American women would have continued playing to game to see what would happen.

[Ray]

...should you create secondary accounts and check up on your sweetie to see if she is sincere?  Or have your friends to do some probing for you?

No, not me. That's just not my style.

I think I have a good nose for BS and can spot it 10,000 miles away. I don't need to play those silly little games of checking up on someone behind their back.

I think one of the sneakiest things you can do is hire some ex-pat American wannabe "detective" to sneak around spying on her. That is just plain STUPID IMHO.

Ray

[robert angel]

Re:

Me--->>About two, maybe three months before my first trip to the Philippines, a gal I had been chatting with intensely every day for a long time, Charlotte, "Lotte", informed me that despite the intensity of our relationship, she didn't consider me a 'suitor'.<<

JeffS--->>Nothing wrong with that. It's straightforward and honest. In spite of how you may feel rejected - time to move on and find someone else. That's the kind of trust and frankness you can only find in Asia IMO<<

Yes, it fairly sucked in how it felt, but there never was a classier dame. She came from a small city in Mindanao, made a decent life for herself in Makati, Manila after studying Computer Technology and getting a degree. She was 28 y/o six years ago and while romantic and sensual, had never been kissed, yet was mature beyond her years in an instinctual way. She had traveled abroad.

Yes she rejected me, but still set aside three weeks for me--three valuable weeks she could have spent visiting her beloved family, traveling abroad or to Bohol or Boracay, but she kept her word, meeting me at the airport and being a diplomat. In my opinion, there's not much to see in Manila, but we had three nice, platonic days. Yes, I wanted more than that, but looking back, she sure gave more in friendship and integrity than just about anyone I've known. I never have thought of her as 'the one who got away' (That was Monique from Belgium) but I'm sure that had we committed, she never would've done me dirty.


I never thought "Gee, that probably wouldn't have happened in the USA, S.A .or Europe", but Jeff's right--that's sounds more true the more I think about it. Too many women like to break up with a vengeance and twist the knife on the way out.

Yea guys, don't feel you have to go for the first Asian lady that catches your eye. There's a lot of gold there, but you have to mine it.

[z_k_g]

Lets make this a bit more interesting!!

Expanding the hypothetical:

You and your girl have decided to abandon your Plan B options mutually!!  Everything is going great!  Trust level is pushing 99%, but....you wanna make sure!

You casually ask her for her password and you are quite willing to give her yours!  (You can reverse this scenario and argue to the converse if you like)

What do you do?  What does she do?  Give up the password?

Zulu

[Jeff S]

Trust is something to be given not tested.

[piglett]

I see no real problem with getting a plan B in about 1 hour or less if the lady you went to see & you don't "mesh" grab p100 if ur in manila & head to the nearist mall. man those hot sales girls there were all checking out my bacon!!!


piglett


long ago I had to decide between Marily & Mere( had a hard time keeping what each of them said to me straight) so I cut loose Mere (in a nice way) I did Ym her to say that I had married & she said that she was very happy for me.


piglett 

[AsphaltVoyager]

Trust is something to be given not tested.

So, you would disagree with me checking out those other websites my girl has all those profiles on? HMMmmmm.... If trust is to given and not tested, then when do you think it's time to take back the trust? Right before the divorce papers are filed? Not being sarcastic, just asking...

I think that at the first sign that your trust was misplaced is the time to begin testing. Otherwise, as so many of you have pointed out, you're only setting yourself up for a B I G fall needlessly.

[AsphaltVoyager]

Lets make this a bit more interesting!!

Expanding the hypothetical:

You and your girl have decided to abandon your Plan B options mutually!!  Everything is going great!  Trust level is pushing 99%, but....you wanna make sure!

You casually ask her for her password and you are quite willing to give her yours!  (You can reverse this scenario and argue to the converse if you like)

What do you do?  What does she do?  Give up the password?

Zulu

I have no problem with giving up my password to her, though I am quite sure she wouldn't do the same, which is why we'll probably go belly-up in the next day or so. (possibly less)

What is preferable is not that you should exchange passwords, but that there aren't any accounts to exchange passwords FOR and that both of you are totally up front about the existence of any. There should be no need, as has been pointed out, for either of you to prompt the other to remove their accounts on dating/marriage sites. It is something that both you independently out of caring for the feelings of the other should do without it even having to be mentioned.

[Jeff S]

So, you would disagree with me checking out those other websites my girl has all those profiles on? HMMmmmm.... If trust is to given and not tested, then when do you think it's time to take back the trust? Right before the divorce papers are filed? Not being sarcastic, just asking...

I think that at the first sign that your trust was misplaced is the time to begin testing. Otherwise, as so many of you have pointed out, you're only setting yourself up for a B I G fall needlessly.

Yes - you are being sarcastic.

If you have to constantly check up on her and test her, she's not the girl for you. If you feel the need to test and check up on her, you are the one with the issue, not her.

Either you trust her or you don't and either she trusts you or she doesn't. If either of those negative conditions exist, my recommendation is to NOT get married. If you chose wisely, you won't have to worry about those things in the first place. I did it and plenty of the other success stories on this board have also.

Yes, I understand that I look at things very differently than most here. Just pointing out that there isn't one formula for success. 

[Capstone]

My thoughts on this is if a guy finds himself in a situation in which he feels the need to play amateur detective and checkup on a girl then there really is no basis for a relationship in the first place. Either you trust someone or you don't. If your gut is telling you that something is not right and you feel the need to checkup on someone then do yourself a favor and move on - there is no need for all the high school drama because the drama will only get much worse if/when you get married. Move on and find the right situation in which no suspicions exist.

[Dave H]

Either you trust her or you don't and either she trusts you or she doesn't. If either of those negative conditions exist, my recommendation is to NOT get married. If you chose wisely, you won't have to worry about those things in the first place. I did it and plenty of the other success stories on this board have also.
  

Hey Jeff,

I TOTALLY AGREE!!!

The other day several Filipino friends were discussing that their wives wanted to take group aerobic dance lessons. But the instructor was a male, so they would not allow it! (The guy is even gay!) They asked me if I would "allow" my wife to take the classes. I said "Whatever, it's up to her." They told me that 100% of the women would cheat with the instructor. I told them to change that to 99%, because I didn't have to worry about my wife! One Filipino replied that he knew 2 conservative doctoras that took aerobic dance classes and cheated on their husbands. I asked them why they didn't trust their wives. They told me that they did, normally...but the ladies would be mesmerized by the instructors movements. I laughed and told them that they were full of BS. I asked them if they wanted to test their theory. They promptly refused!  I told them that I was thinking about teaching fire "pole dancing" and told them to tell their wives. I think they failed to see the humor!  

Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-8BYmkLXTY&feature=player_embedded


Dave's Institute of Fire Science and Pole Dancing

[jm21-2]

Mostly agree with Jeff and Capstone. If you don't trust the girl either there's something wrong with you, her, or the relationship. Definitely not a good idea to get married.

I can't imagine my GF lying to me or cheating on me. The thought just does not even cross my mind. But then I've known her a long time, met her twice, and she's never given me any reason to doubt her.

[z_k_g]

I started this whole thread and I'll respond to my own hypotheticals
(I was trying to stay neutral but its getting too good to stay on the sidelines)

I'll respond by repeating what my mom and grandparents always told me about people and relationships.  This has been true and has not failed to prove itself my entire life!  

Its simply this,
"People will do exactly what the want to do!  There is nothing that you can do about it no matter what you try, ultimately they will make their own choice, despite how much LOVE or MONEY that you invested in the situation!"

Simple translation, If you meet a woman, you can't change her.  You may influence her, but what you see is pretty much what you get!  If she has a propensity to cheat when you met and you notice that she cheats at everything, then pretty much you know what you got on your hands.  

I have made it a habit to observe and report and make my decisions accordingly.  I don't investigate, snoop or spy on anyone, its not worth the hassle and I don't have the time for such foolishness.  

If it walks talks and quacks like a duck, its more than likely a duck, if she is hiding things, telling half truths, and asking you for passwords, then more than likely she is the guilty party.  I could care less about what she does.  

My philosophy has always been, if a woman chooses you, then so be it.  She has to voluntarily submit to you as a man.  Note the word "voluntarily".  She can just as easily un-volunteer for duty.  My commitment is, as long as I live up to my responsibilities, and do what I say I'm gonna do, she has no reason to exit the relationship.  So why spy on her?  She can leave when she gets ready anyways!!  But, guess what?  You can leave when you get ready also!

I let them all know this beforehand, makes life much simpler.

If she exhibits unacceptable behavior, Dump her! Simplify your life! Loose the stress!  Find you another woman.  

Don't try to change her, let some other guy deal with the impending train wreck.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying here, but I think its just that damn simple!

Zulukong