K Visa Fee Increase

[fathertime]

I don't support every statute that's ever been passed. Many are absolute BS, others I don't think are fair, others I just don't like.

The current immigration system is a problem, but I don't see it as a major one compared to other problems we have. Social security, medicare, and medicaid reform come to mind as larger problems, along with national debt issues.

We would starve to death with an increase in immigration? We produce somewhat over 1/3 of the world's food supply last time I checked. If there's any country that can support a huge populace then it's us. A very large portion of our food just goes to waste because we can't use it, other foodstuffs get shipped out...we are nowhere near capacity and food production is still increasing.

I don't want to waste money on freebies for anyone, much less illegals. Neither do I want to spend massive amounts of money on deporting people and building a secure border wall (which would have to be similar to the Berlin wall or those in Gaza to be effective). The current wall can be beaten in a matter of minutes with extremely basic tools, and we have nowhere near enough border patrol agents. The only reason our current system seems anywhere near effective is because there's almost always a completely  unfenced and unpatrolled area just a few miles down the way that's even easier. So, the first order of business is to create an immense wall that is patrolled 24/7, preferably with a kill zone of at least 100 yards where border jumpers are shot on sight (that would do great things for international relations). So after building the wall for many years and hiring a huge number of border patrol agents, you can get around to deporting the rest of those still here. The cost of deporting someone is around $3,000 currently, but those they are deporting right now are incredibly easy to find (such as those incarcerated for a crime). When you get down to finding those illegals living decent normal lives you are looking at a much higher cost per deportee. How much it would be, who really knows? If we use Ray's figure of 25mil illegals (and that number would increase before the wall was finished) that's a minimum of $75 billion, but would in reality almost certainly be much higher.

Now the problem is that most estimates put nearly half of illegals as those who overstayed legally issued visas. Border wall won't help there. So you've got an ongoing cost associated with deporting those folks, probably at least tens of billions a year. You would probably also see those who would previously have jumped the border committing visa fraud instead. So now you have to beef up the immigration system and make it even more onerous, jacking up visa fees for normal citizens in the process no doubt. How onerous would you have to make the process to eliminate all those who would overstay a visa (if it can be done, which I don't think it can)?

Then there's the fact that with fiance/spousal visas (which are of interest to those on this board) some studies have shown that those who commit visa fraud are often more successful at obtaining a visa than those who apply legitimately, since the fraudsters know how to work the system. So if you make the system stringent enough to keep out fraud you're going to deny visas for a huge number of legitimate applicants.

Allow a basic form of visa where there's relatively simple and efficient checks (criminal background, medical, etc.) and foreigners will use it. The vast majority of border jumpers will use it instead. People who are here illegally can return to their country (voluntary cost-free deportation) and apply. That is a very cost-effective way to deal with the problem. The vast majority will go through the process instead of entering illegally, leaving border patrol to track down the misfits, smugglers, or criminals who don't meet those very basic requirements. It would also make it so we knew who was in our country rather than having 12-25 million undocumented illegals.

I concur with Capstone that those here illegally should get preferential treatment over those who have been waiting.

I think the current immigration law doesn't really serve America or Americans well. Am I now forbidden to oppose laws I don't think work well? Ah, America, the land of the free.

If/when I apply for a K visa, I will do the paperwork and pay the fees (there, that's a little back on topic) because thats the law, but it won't stop me from saying "damn that's a stupid law" or "damn those fees are high." I will probably not smuggle her in over the Canadian border to spite the law. But I will wish there was an easier, faster, more efficient way of doing things.

You made so many faulty assumptions, tangents here that for the purpose of space I will only address a few.

Based on your post:
1. it appears you want us to have a completely open border, that is anybody can cross into this country because we don’t patrol our border. 
2. You want to reward the illegals behavior by putting them at the head of the line, to the detriment of those who have been following the law waiting. 
3. Your financial figures are wildly exaggerated.
4. The visa overstayers are a different group altogether.  How do you expect a wall to keep them out?  We need stricter workplace enforcement and harsher penalties that are actually enforced on the spot, that will discourage people from overstaying.


     My impression is that you live in an isolated area more or less devoid of illegal immigrants, therefore you are ignorant of the very real negative impacts that having this many immigrants that do not speak the same language has on a school district and established society.  I doubt you would be saying how great it is to have 20million immigrants that don’t speak the language, when it was your kids that were on the short end of the stick regarding their education.    You may believe it is just a small problem, but those that are living within the states that are directly impacted, know that it is a HUGE problem. Why do you think so many people are annoyed enough to pass the law in AZ?  Too many people all at once has created a fragmented society, people are no longer assimilating and the cohesiveness is just not there any longer. Someday perhaps you will have a different perspective, when your circumstances are different. 

Fathertime!

[jm21-2]

Piglett,

So put a preference for USCs. Though I really think if American workers can't compete against foreigners on their home turf we have some serious problems...

Do you really have so little faith in the American worker? Are they really so bad that any foreigner can waltz in and take their job? And if so, should we just try to avoid competition in the workplace and let America fail?

Ray,

There is this thing called history that lets us know how things happened before we were born. An amazing invention. We can look at it and see what has worked and not worked for people in the past and thus be more thoughtful with our present actions. Amazing stuff.

As far as amnesty goes, put them on a waiting period if you want. It's not like being here illegally is such a huge offense to humanity. Should we start exiling shoplifters who disrespect the law? The punishment should fit the crime.

Where did I advocate giving free schooling and medical care to illegals (or legals for that matter)? I specifically said that the policy would work if we cut welfare programs for these people (such as free public schools and mandating free ER visits).

Ah, I'm a leftist again. There is plenty of evidence that the fences just divert the illegals elsewhere for now. I did mention a Penn & Teller (libertarians, not liberals) episode where they had some illegals build a fence to the proposed specs and then try to get around it. You can do the same test yourself if interested. Even a really amazing fence doesn't do much good without constant patrols. Most of the current fences are littered with holes, ladders, and tunnels where illegals got around them. If you are advocating for a completely closed border you need far better fences and a massive amount of overpaid government manpower.

Well, so you have US employers who have the choice of going through a potentially expensive visa process or just hiring an illegal who's already here...tough call. If you want to work on a farm your main option is entering illegally. That's why I said a simple and efficient visa process not tied to the employer.

Someone who was from a foreign country could apply for said visa and get in. Someone who was here illegally would have to leave and probably face a waiting period to get in legally. That's not preferential treatment to those who are here illegally. But It's a punishment that fits the crime.

If people are unwilling or unable to enforce a law, it probably doesn't work.

I can't respond to your comments about MSNBC as I've never watched the channel.

Fathertime,

1. Basically anyone can come in now. Our resources are tied up catching border jumpers and thus the real baddies can more easily slip by. To have truly impassable borders we'd also have to secure the northern border with Canada and all sea borders. Right now they are coming through the easiest route...when it's blocked off do you really think groups like smugglers will just shrug and give up?

2. see my response to Ray. I don't even know how two people could get that out of my posts.

3. You can look up the $3,000 per deportee figure. I don't know exactly how much all the rest would cost but it just takes a bit of common sense to know it would be a huge amount of money.

4. I don't think a wall can keep overstays out...that was sort of the point.

Our greedy government can't even enforce its own tax code. Do you really think they are competent enough to figure out which companies are hiring illegals? Sure they can raid the Mexican restaurant where no one speaks English and omg they found some illegals, but that's not exactly the hardest thing to do.

I didn't say Californians or those in Arizona or wherever felt it was a small problem. I am saying this has happened many many many many many times before in American history. Like I said, I am sure there was an extreme uproar and paranoia, probably similar to what CA is experiencing right now, when my Scandinavian ancestors arrived here in the NW in the millions (not so long ago), not speaking the same language and having different values. The same for the Germans, Italians, Irish, and a few dozen other groups. In a generation or two no one will probably remember about the Mexicans flooding in...they'll be talking about the Ugandans taking over LA or who knows what. Maybe I can see that better because I'm removed from the problem and can be more reasonable.

[fathertime]

Fathertime,

1. Basically anyone can come in now. Our resources are tied up catching border jumpers and thus the real baddies can more easily slip by. To have truly impassable borders we'd also have to secure the northern border with Canada and all sea borders. Right now they are coming through the easiest route...when it's blocked off do you really think groups like smugglers will just shrug and give up?

2. see my response to Ray. I don't even know how two people could get that out of my posts.

3. You can look up the $3,000 per deportee figure. I don't know exactly how much all the rest would cost but it just takes a bit of common sense to know it would be a huge amount of money.

4. I don't think a wall can keep overstays out...that was sort of the point.

Our greedy government can't even enforce its own tax code. Do you really think they are competent enough to figure out which companies are hiring illegals? Sure they can raid the Mexican restaurant where no one speaks English and omg they found some illegals, but that's not exactly the hardest thing to do.

I didn't say Californians or those in Arizona or wherever felt it was a small problem. I am saying this has happened many many many many many times before in American history. Like I said, I am sure there was an extreme uproar and paranoia, probably similar to what CA is experiencing right now, when my Scandinavian ancestors arrived here in the NW in the millions (not so long ago), not speaking the same language and having different values. The same for the Germans, Italians, Irish, and a few dozen other groups. In a generation or two no one will probably remember about the Mexicans flooding in...they'll be talking about the Ugandans taking over LA or who knows what. Maybe I can see that better because I'm removed from the problem and can be more reasonable.

well jm21-2, from what i'm gathering you are not too concerned about the illegals...you don't think it is a major problem. 

if leadership wanted to enforce immigration law much fewer people would bother to cross...

your distance from the problem is similar to a professor pondering from within an ivory tower...you are out of touch and detached from what is happening where the rubber meets the road...i understand your lack of care/concern for all of us negatively affected...when it is your neighborhood/children that are being affected you will change your pov...meanwhile enjoy your favorable demographic situation and tell us how wrong we are to have strong opinions on our own unfavorable one. 

Fathertime!

[Ray]

There is this thing called history that lets us know how things happened before we were born. An amazing invention. We can look at it and see what has worked and not worked for people in the past and thus be more thoughtful with our present actions. Amazing stuff.

Well DUH!

And there's also a thing called the law. An amazing invention. Have you ever heard of it? I guess not, since you want to ignore our laws and try to return to a hundred years ago when everything was different. Once again, try reading the law. Amazing stuff! 

As far as amnesty goes, put them on a waiting period if you want. It's not like being here illegally is such a huge offense to humanity. Should we start exiling shoplifters who disrespect the law? The punishment should fit the crime.

Why should the illegals get US citizenship? What’s wrong with giving some of them temporary & renewable legal status and the right to work in jobs they now hold instead? One simple answer… The Democrats are looking for more potential voters…period! Illegals have no RIGHT to be here and they certainly have no right to the benefits of US citizenship!

And yes the punishment should fit the crime and the punishment is clearly spelled out in our immigration laws. You really should read that stuff.

Where did I advocate giving free schooling and medical care to illegals (or legals for that matter)? I specifically said that the policy would work if we cut welfare programs for these people (such as free public schools and mandating free ER visits).

When you advocate letting them stay, while you want more millions to come in, that’s exactly what you are doing. Illegals here in California get all those freebies and the liberal judges see to it. We voted more than once to cut them off and all it took was one liberal activist judge to throw the law out simply because he didn’t like it. We will never cut off their freebies with a system like that. Even if the judges didn't throw out the law, the teacher's union had already refused to enforce it in the schools. And the sanctuary cities refuse to enforce any immigration law!

Ah, I'm a leftist again. There is plenty of evidence that the fences just divert the illegals elsewhere for now. I did mention a Penn & Teller (libertarians, not liberals) episode where they had some illegals build a fence to the proposed specs and then try to get around it. You can do the same test yourself if interested. Even a really amazing fence doesn't do much good without constant patrols. Most of the current fences are littered with holes, ladders, and tunnels where illegals got around them. If you are advocating for a completely closed border you need far better fences and a massive amount of overpaid government manpower.

Yes, when you spout garbage like kill zones and shooting them all on sight, that’s exactly what you sound like with your phony scare tactics. How about keeping the discussion real and cease with this stupid “Berlin Wall” nonsense?

And of course there are 24/7 patrols of the fence, and a variety of electronic sensors, cameras, surveillance aircraft, etc. Did you really think they just put up a fence and left it unattended so anyone can cut it down and waltz in. Come on jm, use your head instead of falling for the leftist lies! You’re smarter than that.

Once again, you can listen to bcc and the leftist loons who proclaim the border fence a big failure, or you can come down here and see for yourself that it does work and it works very well. How about it? I’ll even buy the first beer… 

If people are unwilling or unable to enforce a law, it probably doesn't work.

But the people ARE willing to enforce the immigration laws (see Arizona’s new law that something like 70% of the people support). But If the government refuses to enforce the law, while suing any state that tries to, it will never work!

Ray

[piglett]

Piglett,

So put a preference for USCs. Though I really think if American workers can't compete against foreigners on their home turf we have some serious problems...

Do you really have so little faith in the American worker? Are they really so bad that any foreigner can waltz in and take their job? And if so, should we just try to avoid competition in the workplace and let America fail?

what i would worry about is big company's laying off all of their workers & hiring every foreign worker in the county that can get their hands on @ $7.50 an hour.
many people that run huge company's here in the US are so far up it their ivory tower that they have forgotten what it was like when they were just a regular employee.
the foreign labor will scoop up every job in site for min. wage because they will cram 14 people into a 2 bedroom run down apartment. also people just arriving have no idea how much the cost of living is here.

If i told my sister inlaw (the soon to be lawyer) that i could get her a job for $50 a day she would be all ready to get on a plane.

I don't think it's at all fair that American lawyers charge so dam much
lets bring in 20,000 foreign lawyers RITE NOW & while we are at it let them practice law here. they will do it for $50 a day .........so WHAT ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT ??
Do you really have so little faith in the American lawyerworker
  

[jm21-2]

Fathertime,

well jm21-2, from what i'm gathering you are not too concerned about the illegals...you don't think it is a major problem. 

if leadership wanted to enforce immigration law much fewer people would bother to cross...

your distance from the problem is similar to a professor pondering from within an ivory tower...you are out of touch and detached from what is happening where the rubber meets the road...i understand your lack of care/concern for all of us negatively affected...when it is your neighborhood/children that are being affected you will change your pov...meanwhile enjoy your favorable demographic situation and tell us how wrong we are to have strong opinions on our own unfavorable one. 

Fathertime!

Why does it have to be immigration though? Couldn't many of the problems you cited be solved by cutting off benefits, privatizing schools, and so forth?

Ray,

Well DUH!

And there's also a thing called the law. An amazing invention. Have you ever heard of it? I guess not, since you want to ignore our laws and try to return to a hundred years ago when everything was different. Once again, try reading the law. Amazing stuff! 

Any student of the law would know that it is constantly changing to adapt to society, and that's a good thing. Well, OK, things like property law are pretty well set and that's a good thing too.

Why should the illegals get US citizenship? What’s wrong with giving some of them temporary & renewable legal status and the right to work in jobs they now hold instead? One simple answer… The Democrats are looking for more potential voters…period! Illegals have no RIGHT to be here and they certainly have no right to the benefits of US citizenship!

And yes the punishment should fit the crime and the punishment is clearly spelled out in our immigration laws. You really should read that stuff.

Who said anything about getting US citizenship?

There are statutory minimum sentences in many states. I clerked for a judge in OR where they were in effect. I had always wanted to become a prosecutor because I thought criminal laws were just, until that experience. I saw great people locked away and their futures ruined because of absolutely retarded ill-founded laws. Just because the people or the law say something doesn't mean it's right, fair, or just.

When you advocate letting them stay, while you want more millions to come in, that’s exactly what you are doing. Illegals here in California get all those freebies and the liberal judges see to it. We voted more than once to cut them off and all it took was one liberal activist judge to throw the law out simply because he didn’t like it. We will never cut off their freebies with a system like that. Even if the judges didn't throw out the law, the teacher's union had already refused to enforce it in the schools. And the sanctuary cities refuse to enforce any immigration law!

I'm against all freebies and certainly against freebies for illegals. I concur that we need to reform all of our institutions.

Yes, when you spout garbage like kill zones and shooting them all on sight, that’s exactly what you sound like with your phony scare tactics. How about keeping the discussion real and cease with this stupid “Berlin Wall” nonsense?

And of course there are 24/7 patrols of the fence, and a variety of electronic sensors, cameras, surveillance aircraft, etc. Did you really think they just put up a fence and left it unattended so anyone can cut it down and waltz in. Come on jm, use your head instead of falling for the leftist lies! You’re smarter than that.

Once again, you can listen to bcc and the leftist loons who proclaim the border fence a big failure, or you can come down here and see for yourself that it does work and it works very well. How about it? I’ll even buy the first beer… 

Like I said, I lived down in that area. Nice place. I lived in a pretty crappy area that was over-run by illegals and there were police there every night it seemed which made it a bit hard to sleep.

What do you have against kill zones and shooting on sight? It's a very effective deterrent. Another person suggested it earlier in this thread. If you want to deter border jumpers that's the way to go. I don't really see anything bad with the idea, if absolutely securing the borders was your goal. It's not my goal so I don't really like the idea. But, for example, the DMZ in Korea was probably a good idea all things considered.

But the people ARE willing to enforce the immigration laws (see Arizona’s new law that something like 70% of the people support). But If the government refuses to enforce the law, while suing any state that tries to, it will never work!

Ray

And the new AZ law is confusing as heck to most officers. OK, illegals can be spotted, but not arrested. But they should be contained under federal law. But not arrested under state law.   ........

We'll see what the AZ law turns out like but I imagine it will be mostly political BS with a tiny dash of effectiveness.

Piglett,

what i would worry about is big company's laying off all of their workers & hiring every foreign worker in the county that can get their hands on @ $7.50 an hour.
many people that run huge company's here in the US are so far up it their ivory tower that they have forgotten what it was like when they were just a regular employee.
the foreign labor will scoop up every job in site for min. wage because they will cram 14 people into a 2 bedroom run down apartment. also people just arriving have no idea how much the cost of living is here.

If i told my sister inlaw (the soon to be lawyer) that i could get her a job for $50 a day she would be all ready to get on a plane.

I don't think it's at all fair that American lawyers charge so dam much
lets bring in 20,000 foreign lawyers RITE NOW & while we are at it let them practice law here. they will do it for $50 a day .........so WHAT ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT ??

I'm pretty sure those at the top of the corporate ladder were born into an ivory tower and never left it. I doubt most remember what it's like to be a regular worker because they never were.

If they have no clue what the cost of living is here, they will find out pretty fast...

The money they spend finding out the cost of living here is high will go mostly to Americans.

The money anyone spends visiting America will mostly go to Americans.

Is losing some minimum wage jobs a huge deal? How about eliminating the minimum wage so that they earn even less? I'm all for it.

$50/day might be great in some countries, but it's worthless here. Might sound fantastic in some countries but is impoverished here. I have found that the vast majority of Americans have no clue what it costs to run a business. Between office leases, receptionist wages, paralegal wages, advertising costs, professional dues/fees, continuing education, bar memberships, specialized software, office supplies, and so forth, I can easily spend $3,000 per month.

I'm all for it. Bring in as many foreign lawyers as you want. I'm not at all afraid. I've been steeped in American law and thinking since birth. My family and I spent a [snip]load on my education. I melded the skills I learned as a lawyer with skills I had learned previously in web design and advertising to create a fairly successful law practice in the midst of our downed economy.

Actually, I would welcome the competition with open arms. I charge significantly less than other lawyers do because I have lower overhead. I would love to see the cost of legal services reduced. I have also spent countless hours working pro bono. I am all for the reform of our legal system and profession. Bring it on. I love competition.

EDIT:
By the way, my paralegal, all tax considerations considered, costs me about $25/hour. I would love to have an associate attorney working for $50/day. I could save my clients a [snip]load of money. It would be less than minimum wage here as well.

[fathertime]

Why does it have to be immigration though? Couldn't many of the problems you cited be solved by cutting off benefits, privatizing schools, and so forth?

#1 You are talking about a dramatic transformation of our entire society which is not happening yet.  I certainly don't like seeing illegals continue to suck our resources but I'm not yet ready to transform the entire society strictly over them, when we can tighten the border instead.
#2  I'm not entirely sure it would solve the problems.  Generally speaking, illegals are willing to live under conditions that most American Citizens would not.  Given that fact, if there were enough of them, they would be able drive the price down quite a bit on many things, which would put many of us in the poorhouse just like them and we don't want to live under those same circumstances that they are willing to live under. 
#3 When compared to what you are proposing, controlling our border and commencing deportation of illegals stopped by police for other reasons, would be a walk in the park.

I'm all for it. Bring in as many foreign lawyers as you want. I'm not at all afraid. I've been steeped in American law and thinking since birth. My family and I spent a [snip]load on my education. I melded the skills I learned as a lawyer with skills I had learned previously in web design and advertising to create a fairly successful law practice in the midst of our downed economy.

  You love competition for work?  Me, I don’t want any more competition then I already have.   One difference, you are single, very young, which leaves you more freedom, energy, and possibly drive for perfection.  Good qualities/situation but they often don't last as other things start to become more meaningful and work has to take the backseat. 

 I still have my doubts that if other less expensive lawyers starting pilfering your business, that you would be saying how happy you are about others taking business that could be yours.  I’m used to many people going to the least expensive option regardless of quality and quite often I get called afterwords to improve upon what has already been done.
 I don’t doubt your ability/confidence in your field, but loving to be competed against is not something I can relate to at all. Especially if you were being asked to pay for a large portion of their schooling so they could come right back and undercut you and your business.

Fathertime!   

[Ray]

Who said anything about getting US citizenship?

Every “comprehensive immigration reform” (amnesty) plan that I’ve seen provides a path to US citizenship for illegals already here. If you’re for amnesty as proposed by the politicians, then you’re for citizenship for illegals. Where exactly do you stand on “amnesty”?

And the new AZ law is confusing as heck to most officers. OK, illegals can be spotted, but not arrested. But they should be contained under federal law. But not arrested under state law.

jm, have you even read the Arizona law?? Have any officers told you that it is confusing, or are you just ass-u-me-ing that they are confused??

I read it and I saw nothing really that confusing. It’s actually clearly and carefully written and prohibits racial profiling, but that doesn’t stop the leftist ideologues from proclaiming it to be a “racist” law. Even Obama and his crew were vehemently against the law before they even thought to read it, proclaiming it “racial profiling”. Horse crap!

Now I’m sure that a smart lawyer like yourself can read laws, right. Try reading it and see if you agree that it is based on racial profiling like our phony leader proclaims.

Actually the law is largely about prohibiting sanctuary cities in Arizona and prescribing punishment for employers who hire illegals.

Why do you think Obama is suing Arizona while refusing to take control of our borders? Because he wants those millions of new voters that his amnesty plan would bring to the Democrats. Why won’t he be honest and admit his real motivation instead of making up stupid lies?

And have you ever actually seen the border fence and how the system works? It’s so much easier to parrot the leftist loons who proclaim it a failure than to actually take a look and make up your own mind based on your own observations. The leftist loons don’t really care if it works or not. They just don't want anything to interfere with their stupid plan for "open borders" and unrestricted immigration for any and all. Do you fall into that category? You sure sound like it when you repeat the leftist mantra against the fence.

Ray

[robert angel]

I just want the border fence to be disguised to look like trees, so that things look nice.

For all the tunnels that are dug under the fence , I want everyone to agree to not disturb the animals.

Oh--and if they electrify the fence, they need to use solar power to provide the electricity...

lastly, if they have to shoot anybody, they should at least have to count to three before pulling the trigger.

[Capstone]

And have you ever actually seen the border fence and how the system works? It’s so much easier to parrot the leftist loons who proclaim it a failure than to actually take a look and make up your own mind based on your own observations. The leftist loons don’t really care if it works or not. They just don't want anything to interfere with their stupid plan for "open borders" and unrestricted immigration for any and all. Do you fall into that category? You sure sound like it when you repeat the leftist mantra against the fence.

I think that you guys are probably talking apples & oranges with regards to the border fence. By all accounts the border fence in the San Diego area has been a resounding success - the border patrol love it and swear by it. However the border fence in Arizona and other parts of California is a complete joke which presents no real barrier to illegal immigration at all and the border patrol will be the first to admit it.

[Ray]

I think that you guys are probably talking apples & oranges with regards to the border fence. By all accounts the border fence in the San Diego area has been a resounding success - the border patrol love it and swear by it. However the border fence in Arizona and other parts of California is a complete joke which presents no real barrier to illegal immigration at all and the border patrol will be the first to admit it.

No, actually it’s the same fence that jm and others are complaining about. The usual complaints include the ability to climb over or tunnel under the fence, and those opposed therefore declare the fence a waste of money. The simple truth is that they don’t want ANY barriers, especially ones that actually work.

The “Secure Fence Act of 2006” authorized 700 miles of fence that is mostly patterned after the double & triple layer fence in San Diego. The fence act did not cover the entire Mexican border but only about a third of it.

Where the new triple-layer fence was completed and fully manned by Border Patrol agents, it reportedly works very well, as in the Yuma area.

Some of Arizona is supposed to be covered by a “virtual fence” instead of a physical barrier. Maybe that’s the piece of crap that you were referring to? A virtual fence doesn’t slow anyone down, but only helps count those crossing the border.

Ray

[Capstone]

No, actually it’s the same fence that jm and others are complaining about. The usual complaints include the ability to climb over or tunnel under the fence, and those opposed therefore declare the fence a waste of money. The simple truth is that they don’t want ANY barriers, especially ones that actually work.

The “Secure Fence Act of 2006” authorized 700 miles of fence that is mostly patterned after the double & triple layer fence in San Diego. The fence act did not cover the entire Mexican border but only about a third of it.

Where the new triple-layer fence was completed and fully manned by Border Patrol agents, it reportedly works very well, as in the Yuma area.

Some of Arizona is supposed to be covered by a “virtual fence” instead of a physical barrier. Maybe that’s the piece of crap that you were referring to? A virtual fence doesn’t slow anyone down, but only helps count those crossing the border.

A friend of mine's family owns a ranch outside of Naco, Arizona which is on the border east of Nogales. I have visited their ranch on numerous occasions and have seen the 'border fence' there up close and personal and let me tell you it might as well be nothing there at all. The town of Naco itself has a tall wall barrier up which seems pretty good but several miles outside of town it turns into nothing more than a few strands of barbed wire with occasional stretches of automobile barriers erected (which anyone can easily just walk right through). The ranch itself is about 40 or 50 miles outside of town and we have crossed over into Mexico and back while dove hunting by simply ducking under the barbed wire - there are no virtual/remote sensors there just a twice a day border patrol drive-by.

[jm21-2]

#1 You are talking about a dramatic transformation of our entire society which is not happening yet.  I certainly don't like seeing illegals continue to suck our resources but I'm not yet ready to transform the entire society strictly over them, when we can tighten the border instead.
#2  I'm not entirely sure it would solve the problems.  Generally speaking, illegals are willing to live under conditions that most American Citizens would not.  Given that fact, if there were enough of them, they would be able drive the price down quite a bit on many things, which would put many of us in the poorhouse just like them and we don't want to live under those same circumstances that they are willing to live under. 
#3 When compared to what you are proposing, controlling our border and commencing deportation of illegals stopped by police for other reasons, would be a walk in the park.


  You love competition for work?  Me, I don’t want any more competition then I already have.   One difference, you are single, very young, which leaves you more freedom, energy, and possibly drive for perfection.  Good qualities/situation but they often don't last as other things start to become more meaningful and work has to take the backseat. 

 I still have my doubts that if other less expensive lawyers starting pilfering your business, that you would be saying how happy you are about others taking business that could be yours.  I’m used to many people going to the least expensive option regardless of quality and quite often I get called afterwords to improve upon what has already been done.
 I don’t doubt your ability/confidence in your field, but loving to be competed against is not something I can relate to at all. Especially if you were being asked to pay for a large portion of their schooling so they could come right back and undercut you and your business.

Fathertime!   

Sorry to keep things brief since there are alot of responses and I don't have much time.

First, yes it would be a dramatic change. But I think that's the kind of change we need. Isn't America about always pushing the limit? We have so many aspects of our society that don't work and could be improved that it's just sad.

Secondly, although an influx of immigrants might drive wages down in some ways, it would produce a lot of jobs and enhance the overall economy. This is always a question you have to ask... "would I rather face large unemployment or slightly lower wages?" For those who are in secure jobs where they can't be fired because of seniority, of course it's the former. For most people though, the latter works well.


Ray,

Every “comprehensive immigration reform” (amnesty) plan that I’ve seen provides a path to US citizenship for illegals already here. If you’re for amnesty as proposed by the politicians, then you’re for citizenship for illegals. Where exactly do you stand on “amnesty”?

As I said, I believe the punishment should fit the crime. Make them go back to their countries and probably stew for a few years before applying for anything. I don't see being illegal as something like murder or even burglary. There should be punishment but it should be reasonable. In a country where burglars can get off in a few months or a year in prison (which is often quite cush), why have huge penalties for someone who violated immigration laws?

jm, have you even read the Arizona law?? Have any officers told you that it is confusing, or are you just ass-u-me-ing that they are confused??

I read it and I saw nothing really that confusing. It’s actually clearly and carefully written and prohibits racial profiling, but that doesn’t stop the leftist ideologues from proclaiming it to be a “racist” law. Even Obama and his crew were vehemently against the law before they even thought to read it, proclaiming it “racial profiling”. Horse crap!

Now I’m sure that a smart lawyer like yourself can read laws, right. Try reading it and see if you agree that it is based on racial profiling like our phony leader proclaims.

If the typical police officer had a law degree we would be a lot better off. I watched part of the instructional video for police officers in AZ and it could be quite confusing. Especially to some young cop. Oh the things I've seen new deputies do! I will never forget one case I had where my client had been granted a protection order to where his/her spouse could not come within 500 yards of their home. The deputies assisted the other spouse in coming to the home and taking all sorts of things (as well as the children) and running off to timbuktu, despite seeing an official copy of the court order. Sorry if I don't trust some police officers to follow any sort of law.

I am not saying complete border control is impossible. I am saying that realistically it is incredibly expensive. Blocking off part of the border obviously won't work. You need an extremely strong border wall and constant patrols. And even then it doesn't deal with other borders or visa fraud or visa overstays.

[Ray]

As I said, I believe the punishment should fit the crime. Make them go back to their countries and probably stew for a few years before applying for anything. I don't see being illegal as something like murder or even burglary. There should be punishment but it should be reasonable. In a country where burglars can get off in a few months or a year in prison (which is often quite cush), why have huge penalties for someone who violated immigration laws?

What? Make them go back to their countries? ALRIGHT! So now you’re in favor of deportation. Good! I knew I could bring you around with reason…

Huge penalties? What huge penalties? That must have come from someone else, not me. In the new Arizona law, aliens in the state illegally are arrested for trespassing, ordered to pay a $500 fine for the first offense, must pay jail costs, and are turned over to the border patrol, if they will take them. That doesn’t seem very excessive to me. What do you think?

And why do you say that the punishment should fit the crime while you espouse shooting illegals on sight? Are you nuts? That sure sounds like a "huge penalty" to me.

Ray:
“jm, have you even read the Arizona law?? Have any officers told you that it is confusing, or are you just ass-u-me-ing that they are confused??”

If the typical police officer had a law degree we would be a lot better off. I watched part of the instructional video for police officers in AZ and it could be quite confusing. Especially to some young cop. Oh the things I've seen new deputies do! I will never forget one case I had where my client had been granted a protection order to where his/her spouse could not come within 500 yards of their home. The deputies assisted the other spouse in coming to the home and taking all sorts of things (as well as the children) and running off to timbuktu, despite seeing an official copy of the court order. Sorry if I don't trust some police officers to follow any sort of law.

So I’ll take that as a no, you did not read the law, and no police officer told you that he was confused by the law.

I read the law and I wasn’t confused. And I am not a lawyer.

That was a nice story jm, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Again, the problem with the big controversy over the Arizona law is that the folks who are ranting and whining about it have no clue what it even says. They have zero credibility. Obama and his little puppy dog Holder are making complete asses of themselves by suing Arizona while a clear majority of Americans support the Arizona law.

Ray

[jm21-2]

I don't support shooting illegals on sight. I said it was a very effective way to secure the border.

I would rather give the option of getting a legal visa to people who are here illegally (applied for in their home country, probably with a waiting period) so that they will voluntary deport themselves so they can get the benefits of being here legally. Rather than spend tons on hunting down and forcibly deporting them only to have them come right back in.

I don't trust most police officers. Some of them could get confused by next to nothing.