The rules

[Pivery]

 You are spot on Dave, and a very good illustration of what's wrong with American women and why gringos don't know how to act or when to bust a move.

 Pivery

[CROW]

   The "exchange of viewpoints" on this subject is useless.Since ft admitted to "groping" women  and can't get out of it he decided to change the meaning of the word.Now you want to bury "the past"which was only a few months ago, ft.Stop running away and "man up" for once.


   Researcher

I'll man up.

I think the nongropers are givin us gropers a bad name....often times my calena grilfriends will tell me that I'm cariñoso and not frio like most other american guys. Of course I grope them on a regular basis and really it is intended for their pleasure as much as mine.

I think fathertime is probably an acomplished groper that knows not to go for the tits and crotch in public otherwise he would have gotten his face slapped at least once by now. jajaja!!

[CROW]

Maybe you need an education on how many women are sexually assulted each year. Groping is not the grabbing of a woman's waist by any definition. In every definition it involves fondling or rubbing in a sexual nature. Sexual abuse and assult is way too high in this country to match your above statement.

bcc

Maybe we should change groping to a more politically correct term like "heavy petting". jajaja!!!

 Although it has been a long, long time I think I first felt a girl up in a movie theater when I was 13 or 14. Now I usually wait until I get them home.  And I have yet to be accused of sexual assualt or abuse.
Anyway you look at it....at some point you are going to have to work up enough nerve to go for the tits and crotch area if you are ever going to get past first base. Whether or not you end up in the court system will depend solely on how well you can read a woman. After reading this board for a while I have come to the conclusion that some of you really should ask permission before making any kind of sexual advances towards women. jajaja

[Researcher]

You are spot on Dave, and a very good illustration of what's wrong with American women and why gringos don't know how to act or when to bust a move.

 Pivery

   So which is it Pivery?Second date or quite a while into the relationship?


   Researcher

[Researcher]

I'll man up.

I think the nongropers are givin us gropers a bad name....often times my calena grilfriends will tell me that I'm cariñoso and not frio like most other american guys. Of course I grope them on a regular basis and really it is intended for their pleasure as much as mine.

I think fathertime is probably an acomplished groper that knows not to go for the tits and crotch in public otherwise he would have gotten his face slapped at least once by now. jajaja!!

   I'm glad to see someone man up CROW but I disagree with your viewpoint of fathertime.Anyone who gets upset on a forum and runs away with their tail between their legs doesn't have the courage to put any moves on a woman!


  Researcher

[whitey]

AW's and Latinas share some basic anatomy but are not the same species! If you hold a door open for an AW, you may get your azz chewed out about how she doesn't need you or any other man and she can open her own GD door! If you do the same for a Latina, you will likely get at least a smile, and maybe even a little conversation...especially if you can speak some Spanish. She might like your cute gringo accent and the fact that you are learning her language. Maybe she would like to "practice her English" with you. In other words, by showing some interest, you will often get a foot in the door if she is available, which may lead to bigger and better things. If she isn't available, she may have someone that she would love to introduce you to. AW's often resent your attention, but Latinas expect someone who is interested in them to show it. If you act like her brother, she will probably think that you have no interest in her whatsoever. It doesn't matter that you took her to dinner, get a little more intimate.  I am not saying jump her bones or sexually molest her. But act interested, maybe hold her hand briefly when you talk, touch her arm. Latinas have a much smaller personal space than Americans. Sitting across the table may feel like you are on the other side of the room to her. Sit next to her! Don't wait for permission to make the next step like with AW's. I have dated Latinas for many years and have never been slapped for getting a little touchy feely. If you are both interested, take it to wherever it goes...you are both adults! Be flexible, why have rules carved in stone, 1st date, 2nd date,...20 date, etc. If she is unresponsive, then don't push it, move on!

Dave

This is really great advice for anyone who hasn't been to Latin America yet.

For you guys who haven't experienced it, this can be very hard to believe until you do, but there is a WORLD of difference between your average latina and gringa.

So get down there and enjoy!

[fathertime]

   I'm glad to see someone man up CROW but I disagree with your viewpoint of fathertime.Anyone who gets upset on a forum and runs away with their tail between their legs doesn't have the courage to put any moves on a woman!


  Researcher

I've already explained my position and what groping means to me.  I can see by the tone of you posts that your blood is boiling once again. 

I'm not worried about my 'experience' with women but you sure seem to be!  Why don't you tell the forum more about my experience? You have been unable to articulate an opinion on the topic of this thread, as you are more interested in commenting about me and Pivery.  One could assume you just don't have much to add due to lack of knowledge, or perhaps you just prefer talking about us!

Once again I will state that I include grabbing a woman by the waist or moving in for a kiss, embrace, etc. as a category of groping.   I still fail to see any problem with a man doing this without 'asking' first.  I have a sensitive side since I have daughters (which you do not) so I find grabbing breasts or other private parts suddenly to be beyond the pale of decency.  Done publicly or even privately, it is not the way to suddenly & initially 'grope' a woman and I am not interested in promoting that.  I am glad I've been able to further clarify my position, although I am fairly sure it was already pretty clear.

Fathertime!

[fathertime]

bcc

Maybe we should change groping to a more politically correct term like "heavy petting". jajaja!!!

 Although it has been a long, long time I think I first felt a girl up in a movie theater when I was 13 or 14. Now I usually wait until I get them home.  And I have yet to be accused of sexual assualt or abuse.
Anyway you look at it....at some point you are going to have to work up enough nerve to go for the tits and crotch area if you are ever going to get past first base. Whether or not you end up in the court system will depend solely on how well you can read a woman. After reading this board for a while I have come to the conclusion that some of you really should ask permission before making any kind of sexual advances towards women. jajaja

I'm going to have to agree with you on that one Crow.  Working up to and receiving tacit approval is where it is at as far as i'm concerned.  I don't know what these other silly posters are thinking about.  Asking a woman for a kiss, embrace, or if you can put your hand around her waist is absolutely ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.  A man just does it and gauges from there if she is happy about it or not.  Somebody just has to convince bCc and 'researcher' of this!

Fathertime!

[Researcher]

I've already explained my position and what groping means to me.  I can see by the tone of you posts that your blood is boiling once again.  

I'm not worried about my 'experience' with women but you sure seem to be!  Why don't you tell the forum more about my experience? You have been unable to articulate an opinion on the topic of this thread, as you are more interested in commenting about me and Pivery.  One could assume you just don't have much to add due to lack of knowledge, or perhaps you just prefer talking about us!

Once again I will state that I include grabbing a woman by the waist or moving in for a kiss, embrace, etc. as a category of groping.   I still fail to see any problem with a man doing this without 'asking' first.  I have a sensitive side since I have daughters (which you do not) so I find grabbing breasts or other private parts suddenly to be beyond the pale of decency.  Done publicly or even privately, it is not the way to suddenly & initially 'grope' a woman and I am not interested in promoting that.  I am glad I've been able to further clarify my position, although I am fairly sure it was already pretty clear.

Fathertime!

    Wrong again fathertime.I really don't want to discuss you or The Extractor but your posts are ridiculous and Pivery changes his story to match your BS. You don't like being called out on your BS.

     You are not clarifying anything. You realize that you messed up and now you are trying to cover yourself by changing the definition of a word.Why don't you just admit your position instead of trying to change it in such a cowardly fashion.It seems as though you are repeating your shameful past that you so deperately want to forget!


               Researcher

[fathertime]

   Wrong again fathertime.I really don't want to discuss you or The Extractor but your posts are ridiculous and Pivery changes his story to match your BS. You don't like being called out on your BS.

     You are not clarifying anything. You realize that you messed up and now you are trying to cover yourself by changing the definition of a word.Why don't you just admit your position instead of trying to change it in such a cowardly fashion.It seems as though you are repeating your shameful past that you so deperately want to forget!


               Researcher

Hey 'researcher'
You are just grasping at straws, if anybody actually believed your blood-boiling nonsense they would have been free to comment on what a terrible ogre I am.  I have throughly explained what ‘groped’ is to me.   How I dealt with the ladies while ‘dating’ in Colombia, is I took chances, which what I recommend to other posters as well.

   I see you have never formulated an opinion of your own though, and have decided to post just about us guys with experience and a willingness to talk about it!  Hey what happened to saying I was ‘inexperienced’ with the ladies? Was that just a one post hiccup of desperation?  I do thank you for the opportunity to re-explain in depth how I interacted with the ladies, it’s fun to reminisce.   I wouldn’t have wanted some green poster to get the wrong idea, I’m sure that was foremost in your mind, after you calmed your nerves!

Fathertime!

[Researcher]

    Your lack of experience with women shows ft.I don't think everyone here on this forum is aware of your past mistakes.Unlike you, if I feel I need to say something to someone I say it directly to them and not behind their back.


   Researcher

[fathertime]

    Your lack of experience with women shows ft.I don't think everyone here on this forum is aware of your past mistakes.Unlike you, if I feel I need to say something to someone I say it directly to them and not behind their back.


   Researcher

 The sad and frustrated man speaks, and sewage spills out. 

  Among the reasons to be here is to provide real life experiences and to show new posters how to not only exude confidence, but to actually be confident in their foreign travels and with the foreign ladies .  These types of things can't really be taught in a classroom, but through personal introspection, which I hope some of my posts encourage.  Your posts ring pretty hollow in most of these areas, as you prefer to be caught up in an angry past and exude neither confidence nor intelligence, one could easily conclude that you just never had either and have little to impart.  Perhaps a little more ‘confidence training’ would help you get past your anger and enable you to post in a productive and beneficial way.  

Fathertime!

[Researcher]

The sad and frustrated man speaks, and sewage spills out. 

  Among the reasons to be here is to provide real life experiences and to show new posters how to not only exude confidence, but to actually be confident in their foreign travels and with the foreign ladies .  These types of things can't really be taught in a classroom, but through personal introspection, which I hope some of my posts encourage.  Your posts ring pretty hollow in most of these areas, as you prefer to be caught up in an angry past and exude neither confidence nor intelligence, one could easily conclude that you just never had either and have little to impart.  Perhaps a little more ‘confidence training’ would help you get past your anger and enable you to post in a productive and beneficial way.  

Fathertime!

     Or I could get my feelings hurt, leave a long manifesto and run away to another forum to trash this one behind everyone's back....but no, i'm not a coward.


    Researcher

[Researcher]

   Hey Pivery, you have an answer yet? 2 dates or quite a while?



    Researcher

[InnocentVixen]

Many ladies are cautious about who they sleep with and won't jump into bed with someone so quickly

Look at Fathertime's situation- his wife wouldn't even hold his hand for a long time and yet she was obviously very interested in him.

The bottom line is, I don't tnink that newbies should be told "two dates, and you're out". They may pass by some potential life mates if they do.

Personally I think it's a bit sad that men would not give a chance to a girl who wouldn't sleep with them after a couple of dates, but that just means I am not the kind of woman they are looking and I respect that.

Here is my wild guess at what you can expect if you do choose to follow this "rule" in case someone is curious:

1.- you end up with a romantic free-spirited girl (lucky you!)
2.- you end up with someone who has slept with most of the guys she has dated without a second thought (I guess good thing about this is plenty of experience, bad thing would be maybe a potential cheater)
3.- you end up with a prepago and/or a std ( haha sorry had to say this!  )

[fathertime]

     Or I could get my feelings hurt, leave a long manifesto and run away to another forum to trash this one behind everyone's back....but no, i'm not a coward.


    Researcher

Actually I wouldn’t be so sure about that coward statement!  When I posted elsewhere, I used the same name I used here, can you say that?  I’m afraid not, you gallantly chose to use an alias and still deny it to this day. So who is the real coward?    Why do you remain so afraid to use your real name? Believe me, it isn’t worth much anyways! 
 In addition, as I’ve said in the past I’m prepared to take whatever fire comes my way in regards to what I have posted here or elsewhere.  Seems you have a quite a bit of pent-up anger and frustration, I must have really nailed you and made your blood boil!  Nobody else really seems to care all that much! Aren’t you glad I’m back and that ‘manifesto’ I wrote in 2008 no longer applies?  It is just like one of those professional athletes that retires and later decides to come back out of retirement and go for the championship!
  It has been hard to keep this post on the general topic of the thread. Since you seem to want to talk about other things, I suggest you start a thread that pertains to these ‘pent up’ issues you continue to have, that way we can keep these threads clean from your angry off-topic posts, after all this place is not called.  Planet ‘researcher’ and these threads don’t deserve to be derailed due to your anger. 

Fathertime!

[CROW]

Personally I think it's a bit sad that men would not give a chance to a girl who wouldn't sleep with them after a couple of dates, but that just means I am not the kind of woman they are looking and I respect that. Here is my wild guess at what you can expect if you do choose to follow this "rule" in case someone is curious:
1.- you end up with a romantic free-spirited girl (lucky you!)
2.- you end up with someone who has slept with most of the guys she has dated without a second thought (I guess good thing about this is plenty of experience, bad thing would be maybe a potential cheater)
3.- you end up with a prepago and/or a std ( haha sorry had to say this!   )

Innocentvixen
I have no idea were you are from but I think you are confusing dating in the US with dating in Cali Colombia. For most women in the US saying that she will go out with you on a date is saying she is open to the idea of being romantically involved with you....no so in cali....there is not only a lot of casual sex here but a lot of casual dating as well. Guys that come here need to balance the fact that most women here will sleep with you after a few dates if they really like you and even more will keep going out with you as a friend with no real intentions of having any type of serious relationship. This is just the way it is here....no guessing about it.  Green Gringos here run the real risk of wasting a lot of time and money on women that don't really like them if they aren't getting it on is short order. Your point number 3 is off the mark...prepagos always go to bed on the first date and ask for compensation upfront hence the name prepaid or prepago.

[utopiacowboy]

Let's call a spade a spade. They're sluts. Now I have nothing against sluts. Sluts are a lot of fun but I wouldn't marry a slut.

[CROW]

Let's call a spade a spade. They're sluts. Now I have nothing against sluts. Sluts are a lot of fun but I wouldn't marry a slut.

I think that is sad when people think that way...is it better to want to have sex and not.... or is there some virtue to not desiring sex that much at all.

In the US I thought you were supposed to say "no to drugs" not to sex too!!! jajaja!!!

[Researcher]

Actually I wouldn’t be so sure about that coward statement!  When I posted elsewhere, I used the same name I used here, can you say that?  I’m afraid not, you gallantly chose to use an alias and still deny it to this day. So who is the real coward?    Why do you remain so afraid to use your real name? Believe me, it isn’t worth much anyways! 
 In addition, as I’ve said in the past I’m prepared to take whatever fire comes my way in regards to what I have posted here or elsewhere.  Seems you have a quite a bit of pent-up anger and frustration, I must have really nailed you and made your blood boil!  Nobody else really seems to care all that much! Aren’t you glad I’m back and that ‘manifesto’ I wrote in 2008 no longer applies?  It is just like one of those professional athletes that retires and later decides to come back out of retirement and go for the championship!
  It has been hard to keep this post on the general topic of the thread. Since you seem to want to talk about other things, I suggest you start a thread that pertains to these ‘pent up’ issues you continue to have, that way we can keep these threads clean from your angry off-topic posts, after all this place is not called.  Planet ‘researcher’ and these threads don’t deserve to be derailed due to your anger. 

Fathertime!

  Where did I use an alias?Where is your proof?
  Just another lie by you ft!

   Researcher

[jksun07]

FT, regardless of how you define "grope", it has a negative connotation.  If you read in the headlines, "Barack Obama was sighted in Maui groping Michelle Obama" -- although he was merely grabbing her waist -- that would be taken in a negative light.   It's just a poor choice of word for the act.

Not defending anybody, but how can you tell that you've made somebody's blood boil from a message board reply?  Do the letters contain hidden red flames or something?  Am I blind?

[Dave H]

Over the years I have found that these types of threads usually involve "The pot calling the kettle black." Or if you prefer, Apártate que me tiznas, dijo la sartén al cazo ("Move away, you are blackening me, said the pan to the pot"). It is OK if I do it, but disgusting if someone else does! Like the guy who has a 35 year age gape with his wife and calls a guy with an 8 year age gap a pedophile because his lady is only 18.

I don't see how "grope" is inherently bad...unless one is a femNazi (or educated by them) who considers consensual fondling or sex to be rape on the part of the man! "Groping" is not necessarily forced and could be done by women as well. It usually starts out at a non threatening spot and moves toward one's main point of interest.  It doesn't have to involve the sexual organs, breasts, or butt. It could be the feet, toes, calves, elbows, etc.). If the woman is nonreceptive, she simply says "NO!" or pushes his hands away. A normal man would oblige and stop or slow down. If he continues against her consent that is battery and a crime punishable by law. If the advance is allowed to continue...where is the crime or misconduct? Call it what you want, "grope", "fondle," "feel up," "touch," "caress"... In the western world I can't imagine any man seriously dating or marrying who has never done this! Most have usually done much more. With Latinas, I consider it inconceivable to have not done this! As everyone here knows, they are usually very passionate ladies!!! They may say that Spanish men are pigs or dogs (it would be hard for an American to surpass them at that), but deep inside most of them expect some degree of attention and affection. If you treat one like your sister, she will quickly lose interest in you and look for a man who really "cares."  If you treat a Latina like you would an American woman, they will lose all respect for you!

Main Entry: grope
Pronunciation: \ˈgrōp\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): groped; grop·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English grāpian; akin to Old English grīpan to seize
Date: before 12th century
intransitive verb
1 : to feel about blindly or uncertainly in search <grope for the light switch>
2 : to look for something blindly or uncertainly <grope for the right words>
3 : to feel one's way

transitive verb
1 : feel up
2 : to find (as one's way) by groping


feel up
One entry found.

Main Entry: feel up
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1930
: to touch or fondle (someone) for sexual pleasure

fondle
One entry found.

Main Entry: fon·dle
Pronunciation: \ˈfän-dəl\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): fon·dled; fon·dling \-(d)liŋ, -dəl-iŋ\
Etymology: frequentative of obsolete fond to fondle
Date: 1694
transitive verb
1 obsolete : pamper
2 : to handle tenderly, lovingly, or lingeringly : caress
intransitive verb
: to show affection or desire by caressing

affection
One entry found.

Main Entry: af·fec·tion
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈfek-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French affection, from Latin affection-, affectio, from afficere
Date: 13th century
1 : a moderate feeling or emotion
2 : tender attachment : fondness <she had a deep affection for her parents>
3 a (1) : a bodily condition (2) : disease, malady b : attribute <shape and weight are affections of bodies>
4 obsolete : partiality, prejudice
5 : the feeling aspect (as in pleasure) of consciousness
6 a : propensity, disposition b archaic : affectation 1
7 : the action of affecting : the state of being affected
synonyms see feeling

[fathertime]

FT, regardless of how you define "grope", it has a negative connotation.  If you read in the headlines, "Barack Obama was sighted in Maui groping Michelle Obama" -- although he was merely grabbing her waist -- that would be taken in a negative light.   It's just a poor choice of word for the act.

Not defending anybody, but how can you tell that you've made somebody's blood boil from a message board reply?  Do the letters contain hidden red flames or something?  Am I blind?

yo jksun,

I realize that the word 'grope' can have a negative connotation, but as in the case of Barack Obama, he was grabbing a waist and that was considered groping.  My point has simply been, that groping is not always the entirely lewd act that these silly angry posters seem to want to make it.  Whatever word you chose to use, the acts I have recommended are not 'sexual assault' or anything of the like!  Several posters have defined 'groping' similar to me, which proves the point that the word's defination has a lot of leeway.

I'm not really interested in taking this thread off-topic with you regarding the 'researcher' poster, and his off-topic, angry, silliness.

Fathertime!

[zack]

Innocentvixen
I have no idea were you are from but I think you are confusing dating in the US with dating in Cali Colombia. For most women in the US saying that she will go out with you on a date is saying she is open to the idea of being romantically involved with you....no so in cali....there is not only a lot of casual sex here but a lot of casual dating as well. Guys that come here need to balance the fact that most women here will sleep with you after a few dates if they really like you and even more will keep going out with you as a friend with no real intentions of having any type of serious relationship. This is just the way it is here....no guessing about it.  Green Gringos here run the real risk of wasting a lot of time and money on women that don't really like them if they aren't getting it on is short order. Your point number 3 is off the mark...prepagos always go to bed on the first date and ask for compensation upfront hence the name prepaid or prepago.

Crow,

InnocentVixen lives in Mexico. Hence, she is not confusing USA women with Cali women. Maybe the Mexican women are more conservative. I don't know. But she is basically agreeing with the original premise of this thread which is that a man shouldn't dump a woman simply because she hasn't slept with him on the first date or two. You are right though- gringos run the risk of wasting a lot of time and money on Cali women who don't really like them if they don't get it on in short order. I agree However, there are SOME Calenas (though probably not too many) who are NOT willing to jump into bed so quickly, even if they really like the man. Personally, I respect a woman who thinks this way.

Crow or anyone reading this- being a man and knowing how men think, do you not think that it is stupid for a MARRIAGE-minded woman to hop into bed with a man that she doesn't know at all? Is she not setting herself up to get used? If you were a marriage-minded woman, would you do so? I sure wouldn't, knowing how men think. SOME marriage-minded women realize this and try to protect themselves from getting used. But you are right- there is a lot of casual sex in Cali and most Calenas are free-spirited.

Regarding InnocentVixen's 3 possible scenerios- what did she say that isn't true? Regarding #3, I think she was referring to men who end up with a prepago without knowing it, or a former prepago. Hence, no money is exchanged. I know some men who have ended up with a lady whom they later found out was a prepago or former prepago. But this is the least likely scenario in my opinion.

[CROW]

Crow,

InnocentVixen lives in Mexico. Hence, she is not confusing USA women with Cali women. Maybe the Mexican women are more conservative. I don't know. But she is basically agreeing with the original premise of this thread which is that a man shouldn't dump a woman simply because she hasn't slept with him on the first date or two. You are right though- gringos run the risk of wasting a lot of time and money on Cali women who don't really like them if they don't get it on in short order. I agree However, there are SOME Calenas (though probably not too many) who are NOT willing to jump into bed so quickly, even if they really like the man. Personally, I respect a woman who thinks this way.
Crow or anyone reading this- being a man and knowing how men think, do you not think that it is stupid for a MARRIAGE-minded woman to hop into bed with a man that she doesn't know at all? Is she not setting herself up to get used? If you were a marriage-minded woman, would you do so? I sure wouldn't, knowing how men think. SOME marriage-minded women realize this and try to protect themselves from getting used. But you are right- there is a lot of casual sex in Cali and most Calenas are free-spirited.

Regarding InnocentVixen's 3 possible scenerios- what did she say that isn't true? Regarding #3, I think she was referring to men who end up with a prepago without knowing it, or a former prepago. Hence, no money is exchanged. I know some men who have ended up with a lady whom they later found out was a prepago or former prepago. But this is the least likely scenario in my opinion.

Zack I'm not going to tell anybody how to run their private lives or when to dump a woman....but if you are dating a woman for Cali and you are still at square one on the third date...I'd keep all my options open and start calling other women....sometimes these women do get off to a slow start for one reason or another but it's rare. My point about the prepago is if you end up with one without knowing it you are blind, dumb or she really likes you more than money. jajaja!!! If not she'll have her hand out which is kind of hard to miss.