Jim's List site down

[bcc_1_2]

When I first started looking at various countries and I found this board I also ran into the Jim's List website. My first thoughts were damn and then I quickly realized that international dating doesn't have to be this slimy mail order bride, scam, agency type business. You can just meet women!

Anyways at first I had no idea what kind of resource Jim's list actually was, but I assumed he was just running his website for a profit like anyone else. Anyways I noticed his website account was suspended and this other website agencyscams.net has there take on why it is now down.

This has more to do with the FSU than latin america, but they do list agencies for latin america (mainly colombia) as well.

Really the agency business (which is dying out anyways because guys and chicas all over the planet are gaining access to the internet) really just looks a lot like politics (especially in chicago    ). They all are at least a little bit dirty.

When I read what this website has to say and that website's reply I just reminds me of something. First if you are a newbie searching on the net it can be hard to tell the ok ones, the bad ones, and the absolute terrible ones apart. Which just leads me to promote my message and what worked for me.

First you've got to pick a city or a geographical area. You've got to pick a general time frame to make a trip. Then I suggest you just line up a list of places to see and agencies to visit and just go. But if you are going to try and meet girls online don't waste a bunch of money and time doing it. Get in contact with them and tell them when you are coming and suggest a meeting.

Personally I just went down. And the majority of my time meeting ladies did not involve an agency. You've got to put yourself out there. Tons of hotties at the clubs and especially the mall. Anyways I showed up at an agency and only paid per meeting. By doing this I not only met the women I wanted to meet, but I also saved myself a lot of time and money. I didn't worry about them delivering and if they didn't no big deal I had plenty of other things going down.

So with this latest news it was just a reminder to me to only pay for direct meetings or one time for a direct contact. And if they provide bogus contacts or you can't prove she is well a she... stop using that agency immediately.

Marriage agencies are kinda like for profit colleges. The University of Phoenix doesn't have the same agenda as Harvard. Harvard is your mother who wants you to get the best education. The University of Phoenix basically wants your money and well you might learn a thing or two while you are there.

My advice is don't waste your time and your money. You can meet all the girls you want on a pay per meet basis (meaning they deliver you pay) if you simply show up at their door.

[Jamie]

Marriage agencies are kinda like for profit colleges. The University of Phoenix doesn't have the same agenda as Harvard. Harvard is your mother who wants you to get the best education. The University of Phoenix basically wants your money and well you might learn a thing or two while you are there.

Which university did you graduated from?

[Dan]

When I first started looking at various countries and I found this board I also ran into the Jim's List website. My first thoughts were damn and then I quickly realized that international dating doesn't have to be this slimy mail order bride, scam, agency type business. You can just meet women!

Anyways at first I had no idea what kind of resource Jim's list actually was, but I assumed he was just running his website for a profit like anyone else. Anyways I noticed his website account was suspended and this other website agencyscams.net has there take on why it is now down.

This has more to do with the FSU than latin america, but they do list agencies for latin america (mainly colombia) as well.

Really the agency business (which is dying out anyways because guys and chicas all over the planet are gaining access to the internet) really just looks a lot like politics (especially in chicago    ). They all are at least a little bit dirty.

When I read what this website has to say and that website's reply I just reminds me of something. First if you are a newbie searching on the net it can be hard to tell the ok ones, the bad ones, and the absolute terrible ones apart. Which just leads me to promote my message and what worked for me.

First you've got to pick a city or a geographical area. You've got to pick a general time frame to make a trip. Then I suggest you just line up a list of places to see and agencies to visit and just go. But if you are going to try and meet girls online don't waste a bunch of money and time doing it. Get in contact with them and tell them when you are coming and suggest a meeting.

Personally I just went down. And the majority of my time meeting ladies did not involve an agency. You've got to put yourself out there. Tons of hotties at the clubs and especially the mall. Anyways I showed up at an agency and only paid per meeting. By doing this I not only met the women I wanted to meet, but I also saved myself a lot of time and money. I didn't worry about them delivering and if they didn't no big deal I had plenty of other things going down.

So with this latest news it was just a reminder to me to only pay for direct meetings or one time for a direct contact. And if they provide bogus contacts or you can't prove she is well a she... stop using that agency immediately.

Marriage agencies are kinda like for profit colleges. The University of Phoenix doesn't have the same agenda as Harvard. Harvard is your mother who wants you to get the best education. The University of Phoenix basically wants your money and well you might learn a thing or two while you are there.

My advice is don't waste your time and your money. You can meet all the girls you want on a pay per meet basis (meaning they deliver you pay) if you simply show up at their door.

>>First if you are a newbie searching on the net it can be hard to tell the ok ones, the bad ones, and the absolute terrible ones apart.<<

Actually, I think it is not so difficult for a person who spends a bit if time.

Possibly the best starting point would be to review the Agency Code of Ethics, found here -- http://www.certifiedmarriageagencies.org/index.php?pid=19

Armed with that information - inquire of the agency if they subscribe - or not.

If not - avoid them. Simple.

- Dan

[bcc_1_2]

Which university did you graduated from?

I attended a private college for my business undergraduate degree and my MBA. Currently I am studying to take the CPA exam as well as working. I was accepted into the University of Chicago's PhD program, but decided to keep working due to the downturn in the economy.

Thanks for asking.

[bcc_1_2]

Armed with that information - inquire of the agency if they subscribe - or not.

If not - avoid them. Simple.

- Dan

So if they aren't one of the three listed in at least stage one just go ahead and avoid them then?

[Dan]

So if they aren't one of the three listed in at least stage one just go ahead and avoid them then?

No - not quite what I wrote.

The *certification* part of the formula has proven to not attract many agencies. I have had discussions with most of the biggest agencies, and I know generally what their 'issues' are with the ACoE - but we feel strongly the tenets of ethical behaviors expressed there are correct and are not going to change them.

What I wrote was:

Possibly the best starting point would be to review the Agency Code of Ethics, found here -- http://www.certifiedmarriageagencies.org/index.php?pid=19

Armed with that information - inquire of the agency if they subscribe - or not.

Every person who is interested in possibly working with an agency should review the ACoE and determine if they agree with it.

bcc - out of curiosity, have you read it?

If so - do you concur that the ethical behaviors written there, if followed, would be the behaviors you would expect of an honest and ethical agency?

If you *do* agree - then it simply follows that you (or anyone else) could use that context to "inquire of the agency" (ASK THEM), "if they subscribe" (DO THEY FOLLOW THOSE GUIDES).

Make sense?

- Dan

[bcc_1_2]

bcc - out of curiosity, have you read it?

If so - do you concur that the ethical behaviors written there, if followed, would be the behaviors you would expect of an honest and ethical agency?

If you *do* agree - then it simply follows that you (or anyone else) could use that context to "inquire of the agency" (ASK THEM), "if they subscribe" (DO THEY FOLLOW THOSE GUIDES).

Make sense?

- Dan

I have indeed read it. It has been awhile however. According to you it is not so difficult for a person who spends a bit of time at it to figure these agencies out. I just disagree with that. I think it takes a ton of time. There are conflicting reports from people and various businesses like Jim's List just make it more confusing. I will give you this. Once you narrow it to a city you can do some research and get a basic idea. I've read plenty of trip reports online where people put in the time to research and still had varying experiences with agencies.

I think your ACoE is quality and I do remember agreeing with it when I read it. I just know this discussion board is certainly not a secret. In fact it is the biggest resource on the net. And yet these agencies owners (current company included) aren't on your list. I think that is a pretty strong indication as to the industry's ethics. Which is why I use a certain method in dealing (or limiting my dealings) with them.

[Dan]

I have indeed read it. It has been awhile however. According to you it is not so difficult for a person who spends a bit of time at it to figure these agencies out. I just disagree with that. I think it takes a ton of time. There are conflicting reports from people and various businesses like Jim's List just make it more confusing. I will give you this. Once you narrow it to a city you can do some research and get a basic idea. I've read plenty of trip reports online where people put in the time to research and still had varying experiences with agencies.

I think your ACoE is quality and I do remember agreeing with it when I read it. I just know this discussion board is certainly not a secret. In fact it is the biggest resource on the net. And yet these agencies owners (current company included) aren't on your list. I think that is a pretty strong indication as to the industry's ethics. Which is why I use a certain method in dealing (or limiting my dealings) with them.

Couple of points - FWIW:

Re: Perceptions of Agency Ethics. Here is a poll we ran at RWD some time ago asking about the general perception people hold of agencies in relation to other 'professions' -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Forum/index.php?topic=3322.0

I was surprised at the very low opinion most hold towards agency owners.

>>There are conflicting reports from people and various businesses like Jim's List just make it more confusing.<<

Everyone needs to take some personal accountability for their 'search' and its outcomes - and STOP blaming others.

Sure there are conflicting reports - just like there are conflicting reports on the 'net about nearly every product or service. Google now has a "Review" feature for storefronts - and not surprisingly, there are conflicting reports.

Competitors disparage - nutbags and internet crazies scream bloody murder - motives to promote or disparage are numerous - and nearly impossible to discern. In the end, it boils down to an individual's choices - and the very best we can do is equip people with some information to use in making those choices.

That is where the ACoE comes in. It does not guarantee anyone of anything. It merely provides a valuable reference for men and women to use when they select an agency. If more people did this - the agencies would get the idea.

>>According to you it is not so difficult for a person who spends a bit of time at it to figure these agencies out. I just disagree with that. I think it takes a ton of time.<<

I don't quite 'get' this. How difficult is it to take a copy of, or provide a link to, the Agency Code of Ethics and send an email to the agency asking if they subscribe to those tenets?

Done prior to spending any $$ with them, and using the agency's response as a guide would be a powerful tool to insure you are working with a decent agency. If the agency responds that they do NOT subscribe to the ACoE - then that can lead to an exchange about why not - and the specific areas they do not follow - and then, you have the ability to make individual choice about whether to proceed with them, or move to one more ethical.

It seems a simple enough process to me.

- Dan

[bcc_1_2]

I don't quite 'get' this. How difficult is it to take a copy of, or provide a link to, the Agency Code of Ethics and send an email to the agency asking if they subscribe to those tenets?

It is easy. Just like it is easy for them to not pay any attention to it and say Yes, we agree. We are a great agency. Come visit us. And give us your money. I propose when you are in the city you do a pay per meet. You deliver. I pay.

I'd make an exception for the pay per month type personal websites as long as you can exchange personal contact information freely. Not sure what your margins are on your banners, but I'd rather promote those than loveme.com any day. But if those aren't money makers what can ya do.

[Dan]

It is easy. Just like it is easy for them to not pay any attention to it and say Yes, we agree. We are a great agency. Come visit us. And give us your money. I propose when you are in the city you do a pay per meet. You deliver. I pay.

I'd make an exception for the pay per month type personal websites as long as you can exchange personal contact information freely. Not sure what your margins are on your banners, but I'd rather promote those than loveme.com any day. But if those aren't money makers what can ya do.

Sure, they could blatantly lie about their compliance with the tenets of the ACoE. How many times do you suppose that would happen until we saw the offended party arrive here complete with email evidence to support their claim?? My bet is it wouldn't take a week. And since PL is one of the sponsoring sites for the ACoE, we would be quite receptive to anyone with a legitimate claim they had received assurance of comformance with the ACoE, only to be misled - provided, of course, it was all factual.

In terms of our "margins" for banner ads, we do pretty well. Mostly that is because nobody depends on PL to earn a living. As it is - we are beholden to nobody - and just as we publish in the PL Values (found here -- http://www.planet-love.com/index.php?pid=29):

PL is an unbiased and independent 'voice' in the international dating/marriage community, free of commercial leverage. We promote no group or organization (except our own) over any other.

Our margins are what allows us to spend several thousand dollars for the consultant that reviewed the Survey on Cross-Cultural Marriage and Divorce - and enables us to develop and maintain the sites like the CertifiedMarriageAgencies.org site where we publish the Agency Code of Ethics.

We accept pretty much all advertisers that agree to our Advertising Terms of Service - and we also, like JimsLists (and AgencyScams) have numerous affiliate relationships with a variety of agencies - and with Google.

- Dan

[Jamie]

I attended a private college for my business undergraduate degree and my MBA. Currently I am studying to take the CPA exam as well as working. I was accepted into the University of Chicago's PhD program, but decided to keep working due to the downturn in the economy.Thanks for asking.

Good since you graduate a couple times more than I did you should have no problem understanding this.

Looking at this well thought out analogy of yours:

"Marriage agencies are kinda like for profit colleges. The University of Phoenix doesn't have the same agenda as Harvard. Harvard is your mother who wants you to get the best education. The University of Phoenix basically wants your money and well you might learn a thing or two while you are there."

Wouldn’t the agenda for both of these schools be to make money? You say the University of Phoenix basically wants your money, but Harvard charges more money. Couldn’t one make the case that Harvard basically wants your money more since they are charging you much more than the University of Phoenix? But to my point.

You basically selected an industry (university education) and said marriage agencies are like for profit colleges. Stating one university wants to help you (the one that charges you the most) and the other university well its intentions are not as high. Now the University of Phoenix would not accept this evaluation of yours would they? So couldn’t you have selected almost any industry and have a valid point that one company is better than the other in terms of what a particular consumer receives? For example the auto industry, Volvo is your mother it wants you to get to your destination safely but Kia basically just wants your money they don’t have a strong safety record.
The baseball industry, the Yankees are your father and want you to have a winning team, but the Pirates basically just want your money because you aren’t going to get a winning team with them. We could apply what you said regarding university education to almost every industry couldn’t we? Even the marriage agency industry itself, so basically your insightful analogy is nothing more then:
marriage agencies are kind of like marriage agencies.

So maybe now you can see why I would ask if you graduated from a university. I know the intelligent readers on this board can.

[bcc_1_2]

Harvard and The University of Phoenix have a very different mission and purpose. But that goes off into another area. We call it talent acquisition. A Harvard professor commands a larger salary than someone like me who teaches a little on the side. Might be one reason they as a NON PROFIT charge more.

Anyways since you decided to chime in does your agency subscribe to  the Agency Code of Ethics? Should I look for you to be included in this?

[Jamie]

Harvard and The University of Phoenix have a very different mission and purpose. But that goes off into another area. We call it talent acquisition. A Harvard professor commands a larger salary than someone like me who teaches a little on the side. Might be one reason they as a NON PROFIT charge more.

You started your analogy by stating: “Marriage agencies are kinda like for profit colleges.” And then made the comparison between 2 universities and now you tell us one of those is a not for profit university. Then why did you say, “for profit colleges” but not use only “for profit colleges?” in your analogy which was regarding “for profit colleges”? And you teach huh?

Anyway at least we agree your weak analogy came down to nothing more then, marriage agencies are kind of like marriage agencies. Always appreciate your insight.
 

Anyways since you decided to chime in does your agency subscribe to  the Agency Code of Ethics? Should I look for you to be included in this?

If you want to start a new thread feel free to do so.

[bcc_1_2]

 If you want to start a new thread feel free to do so.

Dan, I asked Jamie the direct question you suggested. There was not a Yes response. Now, would you suggest avoiding his agency as he did not answer yes to complying with the Code of Ethics?

[JR33]

Dan, I asked Jamie the direct question you suggested. There was not a Yes response. Now, would you suggest avoiding his agency as he did not answer yes to complying with the Code of Ethics?

   The Code of Ethics doesn't bother me as much as being Non-Compliant with IMBRA.

[Dan]

Dan, I asked Jamie the direct question you suggested. There was not a Yes response. Now, would you suggest avoiding his agency as he did not answer yes to complying with the Code of Ethics?

Neither was there a "No" response.

Seems to me Jamie offered an alternative that you have not yet exercised.

My suggestion now is the same it will be if/when you DO get a response from Jamie, and it follows the tenet you find in the PL Values, where we state:

Code: [Select]

PL practices tolerance of diversity in opinions expressed and experiences shared, and promotes the notion of individual choice wherever and whenever possible.
Note the phrase about "promotes the notion of individual choice wherever and whenever possible."

You should ALWAYS take responsibility for making your OWN choices wisely - and armed with as much relevant information as possible.

- Dan

[Dan]

   The Code of Ethics doesn't bother me as much as being Non-Compliant with IMBRA.

Actually, non-compliance with IMBRA (if it is a requirement for that agency), would *BE* a violation of the Agency Code of Ethics.

Reference paragraph 2-B of the ACoE, excerpted here:

2-B (Business Regulations)
Conform with the rules and regulations governing their type of business activity in their country of registration. Should Agency Clients reside in countries other than an Agency's registered place of business, the corresponding rules and regulations of such other countries shall also be complied with.

- Dan

[bcc_1_2]

Neither was there a "No" response.

Seems to me Jamie offered an alternative that you have not yet exercised.



Note the phrase about "promotes the notion of individual choice wherever and whenever possible."

Ok good advice Dan. I'm going to invoke what you promote. My individual choice is to ask Jamie the question again. Right here.

Jamie, do you agree and comply with the Agency Code of Ethics?

And Dan I asked him a yes or no question. Why couldn't he handle that? Copy and paste works for the words yes and no too. Jamie doesn't do too well with direct questions that require a concise answer. Like how exactly will you handle this customer service situation? Are you currently seperated or divorced, and if so why does your website not reflect that truth? And of course the yes or no question I asked above.

[Dan]

Ok good advice Dan. I'm going to invoke what you promote. My individual choice is to ask Jamie the question again. Right here.

Jamie, do you agree and comply with the Agency Code of Ethics?

And Dan I asked him a yes or no question. Why couldn't he handle that? Copy and paste works for the words yes and no too.

bcc,

Anyone ever told you that you are stubborn?

Here is what Jamie said earlier:

If you want to start a new thread feel free to do so.

While you are free to make your own choice to ask your question in the same topic as earlier, it SEEMS like Jamie was receptive to your question if you start a new topic.

Your alternative was (and is) to simply start a new topic posing the same question.

ORRRRR . . . you can repeat your question in this topic, and I predict Jamie will respond quite similarly to how he responded earlier, and on and on it goes.

You see - at some point you guys will (or SHOULD) get past all these silly-assed games.

When you get serious about reaching REAL conclusions - and maybe even seeking reconciliation of differences (Heaven forbid!) - then, and ONLY THEN, will this idiocy cease.

- Dan

[bcc_1_2]

bcc,

Anyone ever told you that you are stubborn?

It might appear that way, but I think I have some pretty legit questions here. If you want to know what I am inferring I'll just spell it out.

Jamie is only interested in helping people who buy his expensive package.

Jamie is no longer with his wife.

Jamie did not agree to the Agency Code of Ethics and is not IMBRA Compliant

And just to note I am not anti agency. In fact I've met a few girls from them. Pay per meet. You deliver (and I stay at the lodging of my choice) and I'll pay you for the meeting. So I'm personally not out to get anyone. Just asking very relevant questions that have very simple answers.

[Dan]

It might appear that way, but I think I have some pretty legit questions here. If you want to know what I am inferring I'll just spell it out.

Jamie is only interested in helping people who buy his expensive package.

Jamie is no longer with his wife.

Jamie did not agree to the Agency Code of Ethics and is not IMBRA Compliant

And just to note I am not anti agency. In fact I've met a few girls from them. Pay per meet. You deliver (and I stay at the lodging of my choice) and I'll pay you for the meeting. So I'm personally not out to get anyone. Just asking very relevant questions that have very simple answers.

>>Jamie is no longer with his wife.<<

How is that remotely relevant?!?

Is the guy who installed your satellite TV married?!? Does it matter?!

Candidly, I find the question so totally IRRELEVANT that it raises serious questions about the motive to even raise it.

>>Jamie did not agree to the Agency Code of Ethics and is not IMBRA Compliant<<

Jamie did not indicate agreement or disagreement with the ACoE.

In terms of Jamie's IMBRA compliance, have you asked him if his agency is compliant? And if his agency is NOT compliant, have you asked if his agency is REQUIRED to be compliant?

My position on IMBRA compliance is a matter of public record - and while I think the law stinks, it remains the law of the US and needs to be followed. There are also specific exclusions to IMBRA. I have not checked, nor asked, but it *is* possible Jamie's agency is exempt from IMBRA. Have you asked him?

>>Jamie is only interested in helping people who buy his expensive package.<<

bcc - have you ever owned a company? I see a lot of people making demands of improved customer service - and I generally agree. At the same time, there are some fundamentals of a market economy. The law of supply and demand - and there are human factors involved.

Do you recall the TV program called 'Vegas'? If so, did you see the special treatment the casinos gave to customers they called "Whales"? It is a common practice and it occurs in every business.

Jamie is no different.

You guys need to get over it - and you need to maybe get a crash course in the fundamentals of business ownership in a market economy.

- Dan

[bcc_1_2]

>>Jamie is no longer with his wife.<<

How is that remotely relevant?!?

Because he runs a marriage agency. If you run with the image that you and your wife are still together it matters. If you are advising men on how to create a life long relationship it matters. If you are a bedalatina agency owner it definiately matters. 

[bcc_1_2]

>>Jamie did not agree to the Agency Code of Ethics and is not IMBRA Compliant<<

Jamie did not indicate agreement or disagreement with the ACoE.

In terms of Jamie's IMBRA compliance, have you asked him if his agency is compliant? And if his agency is NOT compliant, have you asked if his agency is REQUIRED to be compliant?

I've asked if he agreed to the ACoE which includes IMBRA compliance twice now actually.

[bcc_1_2]

>>Jamie is no longer with his wife.<<

How is that remotely relevant?!?

Is the guy who installed your satellite TV married?!? Does it matter?!

Candidly, I find the question so totally IRRELEVANT that it raises serious questions about the motive to even raise it.

>>Jamie did not agree to the Agency Code of Ethics and is not IMBRA Compliant<<

Jamie did not indicate agreement or disagreement with the ACoE.

In terms of Jamie's IMBRA compliance, have you asked him if his agency is compliant? And if his agency is NOT compliant, have you asked if his agency is REQUIRED to be compliant?

My position on IMBRA compliance is a matter of public record - and while I think the law stinks, it remains the law of the US and needs to be followed. There are also specific exclusions to IMBRA. I have not checked, nor asked, but it *is* possible Jamie's agency is exempt from IMBRA. Have you asked him?

>>Jamie is only interested in helping people who buy his expensive package.<<

bcc - have you ever owned a company? .

Do you recall the TV program called 'Vegas'? If so, did you see the special treatment the casinos gave to customers they called "Whales"? It is a common practice and it occurs in every business.

I've run a big box retailer, inherited a business, and teach a couple of night classes on the subject. I agree with what you wrote. I merely suggested Jamie doesn't have a clue about customer service standards in the United States. As for the customer service issue Sean brought up before he left, that is another issue which I believe was not handled in a professional manner. But rather than get side tracked with that I'd prefer the very relevant questions as to the ACoE and his relationship status (which he touted on his business website) be answered.

[Dan]

Because he runs a marriage agency. If you run with the image that you and your wife are still together it matters. If you are advising men on how to create a life long relationship it matters. If you are a bedalatina agency owner it definiately matters. 

I could not disagree with you more.

If I understand your complaint correctly - it is essentially a "truth in advertising" claim - and you believe Jamie is somehow holding up his marriage as an enticement to bring people into his business.

Are you serious?!?

>>Because he runs a marriage agency. If you run with the image that you and your wife are still together it matters.<<

Why?!? Are you saying that ONLY a married man can be an effective agency owner?

>>If you are advising men on how to create a life long relationship it matters.<<

Refer to my earlier post about INDIVIDUAL CHOICE. If anyone is relying on Jamie to be making relationship decisions FOR THEM - that is foolish indeed. I remain unpersuaded that Jamie's marital status matters a twit.

>>If you are a bedalatina agency owner it definiately matters.<<

Since you ADDED this to the exchange, there must be a reason - and it seems you are now extending the criticisms to include the allegation that Jamie is "a bedalatina agency owner." Is that the reason you added this unrelated issue?

- Dan