Is it ethical to spy on your Novia?

[CowboyUp]

How do you all feel about the ethics of checking up on the girl you are involved with?

I have been burned before, and my gut was telling me the whole time she was involved with other guys, turns out I was right on the money.  But at the time I felt it was unethical to hire a local PI, check her cell phone call history, or snoop around when she left herself logged into her email and social networking sites on my laptop.  I felt that if she was doing that to me, I would view that as a violation of trust and a sign of insecurity and irrational jealousy.  I would have to dump a woman like that, so how could I justify doing it myself?

But I am considering installing keylogger software on my laptop before I make my next trip.  If a girl uses my laptop to check her email and messages,  I would have all her passwords if her behavior seemed hinky.  I don't think of myself as either a jealous or insecure person, and feel mutual trust is an important part of any mature relationship. But the hard reality is this:  I am the one spending thousands of dollars on airfare, agency fees, hotels, long distance phone calls, taxis, and many many other expenses, not her.  Not to mention I have little vacation time available to me, and feel it is a huge opportunity cost on my part to dedicate that time to a woman who is not serious when I could be using that precious time to finding the woman of my dreams.

I washoping someone can convince me to maintain my ethical standards.  Either that or convince me that what I am considering is not a (serious) ethical breach.  Most people do research on important investments before committing themselves don't they?  Employers do background checks, landlords ask for references, I used Carfax to check out automobiles I was considering purchasing.  I do not consider any of those things to be violations of trust, just being practical.  But somehow being practical when love is involved seems incredibly callous

Your views?

Frank

[bcc_1_2]

From what I understand you don't even have a novia yet? Sounds like you are letting issues that have plaqued you in the past get in the way of relationships that haven't even started yet. Kinda early to distrust women you haven't met, no?

[Quixote9]

I washoping someone can convince me to maintain my ethical standards.  Either that or convince me that what I am considering is not a (serious) ethical breach.

I can't help you there.  What you're planning is morally wrong IMHO.  That said, do it anyway!!!

The smart thing and the right thing to do, not always the same.  Keep in mind though,  if you dig through anyone's private correspondence hard enough you are going to find something suspicious, but it just might be out of context.  I get tons of unsolicited (and unread) emails for herbal viagra, live webcam girls, and online dating sites.  If a girl logged into my email account she might get all kinds of wrong ideas about what I am upto and what kind of guy I am.

[Jeff S]

I agree with bcc. No sense bringing your past baggage into a new relationship. If you feel like you have to spy on her, what kind of novia can she be?

[Pivery]

  Well put me down as one who would never do anything remotely like what you are considering...
 
Everyone should be treated with respect and dignity (trust) unless you have some reason not to. For myself I feel everyone has a past, and in order to build that trust between yourself and someone you are in theory going to spend the rest of your life with, that's not a good way to get that started.

My lady has never done a background check on me and I could care less who she was with before me. The past is the past. Background checks and such is something that's done here in the states, and I am glad I there are women who can be taken at their word. My lady being one of them.

I think you just got a bad woman, it happens. Now you need to find yourself a real woman who needs no checking up on. Last thing I wanted to share is when I lived at home, my parents would routinely open my personal mail before I even got to see it. Their reasoning was that they were trying to protect me, but in reality it was more like they didn't trust me. I would never want to make anyone feel untrusted like I felt then and I am so glad I don't have to worry about anything that you are considering. My lady is true to me, and when she tells me something, it's the God's honest truth. You just need to get yourself one of those and all of your spying schemes will melt away. 

Pivery

[Researcher]

           I don't think there is a standard for ethics when it comes to this. I don't know if I would go as far as hiring a PI.In the past, if I ever was that suspicious of a woman I just cut her loose and moved on.There are too many of them out there to put up with anything like that. You have to keep your eyes open though. Look for those "red flags" that everyone talks about but hardly anyone notices.(if they are "in love") So, try to keep your wits about you even after you and some woman you meet go running slow motion to each other through a field of daisies. That's where alot of guys get taken advantage of and there is no reasoning with them because...they are "in love".

             As far as a woman checking up on me? I have never had a problem with it because I don't do anything that I mind others knowing about.

[Cbear]

I don't usually come over here to the latin side so please forgive me but I have been down this road.

I had a Philippina girlfriend who I sent money to for her school. After the fact I became suspicious and hired a private detective to check her out. Unfortunately he did and she came back clean. She was who she said she was and she was in enrolled in the school she said she was. But about 2 weeks after she got the money, she disappeared. Just dropped out of site. Basically she scammed me for the money.

So my gut was right about her. I do know where she is now. She was quite surprised when I was able to find her and call her on her new cell phone.

Anyway, my advise would be if your gut is telling you something is wrong, then something is wrong and you need to run.

However, it is your computer, so install what you want on it. Better safe than sorry, but be prepared to catch hell if she finds out. But I wouldn't hire an investigator unless you need evidence for a divorce or something, if it doesn't feel right, then just drop her and move on. Much cheaper than hiring a PI.

[bcc_1_2]

I had a Philippina girlfriend who I sent money to for her school.

Don't do this... and you'd have nothing to investigate. To be fair it seems those going to asia tend to chat a lot more online and use webcams before they head over. Judging by the cost of a ticket and the length of the flight I suppose I understand that. But still I doubt Cbear has sent money since.

These girls all got along before you where in their (virtual) lives. They shouldn't be asking for (or accept) money from guys they hardly know (that is if they are interested in a relationship with you).

With all the available and interested girls I met on my last trip. If one gave me a bad vibe... see ya.

[utopiacowboy]

A woman has to earn your trust. It is not necessary to resort to the kinds of measures that you are talking about to discover a woman's true character. At the beginning you watch to see if she keeps her word on the little things and eventually you'll see whether she is worthy of your trust. You trust her a little more as she earns that trust and see what she does with it. If she treats it right then you give her more trust. The guys who get into trouble don't go through this process and then they wonder why they got burned.

[Dan Las Vegas]

I would agree completely with UC, he makes a lot of sense!  Never send money to someone whom you have never met in person. If you have doubts or suspicions, go with your gut and call it a day. There are plenty of women out there, so you don't have to waste your time on someone you have doubts about. Take your time to know the woman and as utopia said, you will discover her true character.

Dan

[singlefather no more]

I don't usually come over here to the latin side so please forgive me but I have been down this road.

I

CBear,

You are always welcome on the Latin side and thanks for your thoughts..

..

[Cbear]

Don't do this... and you'd have nothing to investigate. To be fair it seems those going to asia tend to chat a lot more online and use webcams before they head over. Judging by the cost of a ticket and the length of the flight I suppose I understand that. But still I doubt Cbear has sent money since.

These girls all got along before you where in their (virtual) lives. They shouldn't be asking for (or accept) money from guys they hardly know (that is if they are interested in a relationship with you).

With all the available and interested girls I met on my last trip. If one gave me a bad vibe... see ya.

I don't totally agree that you should never send money. That is a catch all and is best used by newbies until they get the feel for this. I was pretty sure she was scamming before I sent the money but the fact is she never once asked for the money and she cried like a baby when she received it. So I know she needed it and I know what it was used for. At the time I just didn't care about spending the money, My own personal circumstances were such that I didn't even care if it was a scam. I just didn't want to give my heart to her if she wasn't real. I had never even seen her on cam before I sent it. but she came on cam a few days after getting it. So I confirmed she was the girl in the pictures. The PI confirmed that she was in school and single. But he couldn't confirm that she really didn't want a relationship.

I don't regret sending it but that is me. I also sent money to another lady as a gift so she could get her son a Christmas present. I was not interested in her at all. She showed me the toy she bought him on cam, and showed me the receipt and the price tag that was still on the toy. So I feel that was money well spent. That little boy had a Christmas because of me. It felt great to do it.

[Cbear]

CBear,

You are always welcome on the Latin side and thanks for your thoughts..

..

Thank you!

[Researcher]

I don't totally agree that you should never send money. That is a catch all and is best used by newbies until they get the feel for this. I was pretty sure she was scamming before I sent the money but the fact is she never once asked for the money and she cried like a baby when she received it. So I know she needed it and I know what it was used for. At the time I just didn't care about spending the money, My own personal circumstances were such that I didn't even care if it was a scam. I just didn't want to give my heart to her if she wasn't real. I had never even seen her on cam before I sent it. but she came on cam a few days after getting it. So I confirmed she was the girl in the pictures. The PI confirmed that she was in school and single. But he couldn't confirm that she really didn't want a relationship.

I don't regret sending it but that is me. I also sent money to another lady as a gift so she could get her son a Christmas present. I was not interested in her at all. She showed me the toy she bought him on cam, and showed me the receipt and the price tag that was still on the toy. So I feel that was money well spent. That little boy had a Christmas because of me. It felt great to do it.

              I get your point Cbear.I agree, never send money expecting anything in return or thinking that you will get it back somehow.I experienced more women in the Philippines asking for money than anywhere else.I was chatting with one who I started to suspect was a scam artist.One day she shows up in front of the webcam with a cast on her arm.She claimed she was crossing the street and got hit by a car.She claimed she had multiple fractures and needed money for the medical bills.I felt I had not known her long enough to send any money so I put her off.About a week later she shows up with no cast on her arm.When I asked her about it she changed the subject. A miracle? I think not

              I don't know about using a PI. I say use common sense and listen to your gut instinct.


           Researcher

[mudd]

I pretty much agree with  pivery , if you have no reason to check on her, then you shouldn't be getting into her personal life.  don't bring down your past baggage with you from old relationships. you cant start a new relationship if your bringing things into it from  past relationships. I'm not saying don't keep your eyes open and head clear, but if she is not giving you reason to doubt  her honesty and trust, then you shouldn't be checking into her private life. 

[bcc_1_2]

          I agree, never send money expecting anything in return or thinking that you will get it back somehow.

If someone has a Knight in Shining Armor complex or wants to donate their cash by all means it is your money. But let's at least be clear about what happened. CBear sent money overseas. Regardless of what it was used for the lady terminated communications with him. That's called a scam. On top of that more money was sent to hire a PI which just relayed the obvious. You got scammed...

If you are searching for a signifcant other the Knight in shining armor complex is a complete farse and while donating money is a nice thing to do it only complicates the situation with a women you've never met. And comm on its not like you are donating to someone with the most need... you are doing it for someone you started communicating with because you thought she was hot... was interested in her... or whatever.

I'm not anti sending a present for the holidays or anything but truthfully I would never do it myself. If you are going to send a gift I'd make sure it was something not all that costly (nice... but not a new laptop, etc). And just a one time special occasion. If two of her birthdays have come and passed its not like she thinks you will actually visit anyways... probably just milking you for the gifts.

Obviously don't send cash or expensive gifts to women you've never met.

[Ray]

OK, if you have a teenage daughter and you have reason to believe that she is doing something self destructive, then by all means it is ethical to spy on her or whatever you have to do to protect her from herself.

But hiring private investigators? Using a key-logger to steal her passwords? Are you guys crazy? This isn’t your teenage daughter but an adult with a right to her privacy. What gives you the right to pry into her private life and then report the results here on a public internet forum? Oh, because you will spend lots of money to travel there to meet her? Or because another woman cheated on you in the past? Oh give me a break!

Wake up man! If you will stoop that low before you are even in a committed relationship, then you’ll go even farther after you are married and I feel sorry for the woman who ends up with you.

Personally, I think any guy who feels the need to hire investigators to check up on a lady or steal her e-mail password is too insecure to be thinking of marriage. If you just can’t trust any woman then please remain single.

Just my $.02,

Ray

[Ray]

But let's at least be clear about what happened. CBear sent money overseas. Regardless of what it was used for the lady terminated communications with him. That's called a scam. On top of that more money was sent to hire a PI which just relayed the obvious. You got scammed...

 

Now why did you come to the conclusion that he was scammed? Because he said so?

You guys obviously have no idea what a scam is or how it works. He wasn’t scammed. He stated very clearly that she never asked him for money, but he decided to send it anyway. Then shortly after that she disappeared. Does that sound like a scam to you?

A REAL scammer would have milked him for every cent she could get out of him. Once the sucker sends cash, anything goes and more requests for money follow, increasing in frequency and size until they have gotten all they possibly can from him.

But this young lady instead of asking for more money just went away. In fact, by his own words, she never asked him for anything.

Here’s the way I see it. She felt embarrassed and ashamed for taking his money and she probably thought that he was trying to buy her affection with his cash so she lost her respect for him and dumped him. He felt hurt because she didn’t swoon all over him after he sent her money so his hurt feelings resulted in more money being thrown after bad by hiring a private investigator to check her out.

He only thinks he was scammed because he didn’t get what he wanted…her undying appreciation for his unsolicited gift.

Sending money to these girls you have never met is just plain stupid. You can’t buy a nice girl’s affection with money or expensive gifts. A nice Filipina girl will lose respect for you if you appear to be out to buy her affection.

If you must send a gift for a special occasion, have flowers delivered. They will wilt and die in a few days but the romantic affect will be greater than sending cash, or expensive cell phones, or other expensive toys. A guy on the Asian forum had a small stuffed animal and some chocolates delivered for his girl’s birthday and that probably got him a lot more loving than $10,000 in cash ever would have.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!

[Cbear]

Ray, I do think it was a scam, she has since been on other websites but now doesn't use her own picture. She has a unique writing style that I spot very easily and I have confronted her about it. You should have heard the surprise in her voice when I called her on a number she didn't know I knew. LOL That was worth the price of the investigator.

But it is true she never asked for money, In her second letter she said she couldn't afford her schooling. Thats it, the only time she ever mentioned that she needed money. We talked for a while after that before i just decided to send it. I wasn't trying to buy her affection, from her letters I thought I already had it. I just wanted to help her.

Also, I hired the PI right after I sent her the money and before she came on cam. This was BEFORE she broke off communication. His report came back BEFORE she broke it off. So I actually thought she was for real. His report confirmed that she really was who she said she was and she was single, no bf.

I think she stopped talking to me because she knew I was only sending money one time, I had made that very clear to her, so why hang around if she can't get anymore.

As far as respect for me, I don't think she had any to begin with. She still isn't in a relationship but she is about to graduate school in about a month and she still scams.

All I can say is stay away from a 25 year old virgin nursing student named Mitch. Thats not her real name, its the name shes using now, and she is 28 not 25 and she is not a virgin.

[michaelb]

OK, if you have a teenage daughter and you have reason to believe that she is doing something self destructive, then by all means it is ethical to spy on her or whatever you have to do to protect her from herself.

But hiring private investigators? Using a key-logger to steal her passwords? Are you guys crazy? This isn’t your teenage daughter but an adult with a right to her privacy. What gives you the right to pry into her private life and then report the results here on a public internet forum? Oh, because you will spend lots of money to travel there to meet her? Or because another woman cheated on you in the past? Oh give me a break!

Wake up man! If you will stoop that low before you are even in a committed relationship, then you’ll go even farther after you are married and I feel sorry for the woman who ends up with you.

Personally, I think any guy who feels the need to hire investigators to check up on a lady or steal her e-mail password is too insecure to be thinking of marriage. If you just can’t trust any woman then please remain single.

Just my $.02,

Ray

Thank you for the voice of sanity, Ray. 100% correct. Some people just aren't ready and can't handle it. Here's a thought, Cbear, maybe your hard boiled dick wasn't as discrete as he should have been and she found out you hired him....if so, what do you think her opinion of you is now?

[bcc_1_2]

A REAL scammer would have milked him for every cent she could get out of him.

A better scammer would have certainly. It really doesn't matter what she it. Just don't send cash and then hire a PI to investigate. Then you don't have a problem.

[Cbear]

A better scammer would have certainly. It really doesn't matter what she it. Just don't send cash and then hire a PI to investigate. Then you don't have a problem.

Actually she is a very good scammer. what I think happened is that she had a real profile that she didn't intend to scam with. But me being stupid and sending her money was just to much for her to handle and she had to revert back to who she really is.

I know she didn't know about the PI until after I told her when I found her after she stopped communicating. She was utterly shocked that I was able to find her. She also goes by the name Name Removed by Admin. I have some other alias of hers but I would have to look them up, I don't remember them all.

Again, though I don't think that you can say in all circumstances don't send cash. I sent cash for a Christmas gift. The money was spent on exactly what she said it would be spent on. So I don't think just because a girl accepts the money that she is bad. Now if she asks for it or drops big hints then yes, that is a red flag.

The reason I hired the PI was because at first I couldn't get her to come on cam and I also couldn't find anything out about her school.
She actually came on cam about the time I hired the guy and he confirmed the school and her status there. I don't regret sending the money. My ex had just blown 40K and I just felt like blowing some money myself. It actually made me feel good. And when I go to PI I am going to go see this girl and we are going to have a little talk. LOL

[lite sweet dude]

I dated a scammer in BQ. She was the ultimate gringa wanna-be estrato 5 primadonna and a royal pain in the butt.
No redeeming qualities what so ever...even the sex was bad.
I must've had rocks in my head for ever having anything to do with her. The only time I gave her any money was for utilities and food while I was staying in her house.

Anyway, she pledged her undying love to me  until one day she vanished. I was a little curious as to what happened to her so I googled her name. Didn't need a PI. Turns out she conned some shmuck into moving her outta Colombia and to St. Kitts. They're married now and living here in Florida.
Oh, well. Better him than me.

[mudd]

and this original post was about what???

[singlefather no more]

Cbear,

I don't think it is fair to post someone real name on this site and I think it is against the rules..

..