Cali mostly, 2nd trip in 3 months

[bcc_1_2]

Ok I'm just reading this and I'm glad rivardco is enjoying himself, but I wondering what the goal of his trip is? Is this about starting the process of meeting the right lady or just having fun and seeing Cali?

I'm just curious because the only reference I see to women are ones that even he says are way too young. Is rivardco going to agencies are planning to attempt to meet ladies he is interested in later in the trip?

[soltero]

His focus is not meeting women. He is spending time pursuing possible business ventures and immersing himself in the culture. Rivardco will be the first to tell you that finding a woman is only a goal if she is the right woman.

[Zon]

True.  I am a very  little bit lonely only sometimes.  I have found that when I spend time with party girls / very pretty young girls looking for fun, it has only made me lonelier and feel old:)

So, I take each day anew without a particular goal or desire.

AND, it takes a long while to fully get over a long term relationship. For me, I can honestly say I got over my past relationship this past July - and that was about 2 years!  AND, getting out of that relationship was something I wanted.

Now, I want to see and experience things much more than just find a wife.  I had that a beautiful wife for 13 years.  That does little to insure happiness.  Most of the time, marriages are as much of a curse as a blessing.  I am not against marriage AT ALL.  But I am keenly aware of how rare GOOD marriages are.  I do not want to have a bad one ever again.

I have seen and spent time with many pretty women, but as of yet no magic.  The girls that I have enjoyed most have been my friends daughters and sisters and the are just children.  I have found them to be my best Spanish teachers.

I have met some ladies on Colombian Cupids.  The level of connection I have achieved with them is very minimal, however.   The ladies that I have met, and I have not tried to meet any from agencies, although I enjoyed their company, I have not been motivated to advance the relationship.

For me (and I am sorry to appear overly selective), I believe I would be most attracted to a woman with choices and a good education, and a polished sense of refinement.  I have not found that in Cali.  There are many women who are as beautiful as beautiful gets, but I am not looking for a model wife. Although, for those of you who are, it is very possible here in Colombia. 

My experience with Colombian women are not a vast as they will by the end of this month.  So far it easy to see that there is a great curiosity that benefits me just being a gringo.  Generally, it is a good place for a man's self esteem.  That much is certain.

[bcc_1_2]

ok then... well enjoy your trip! If you are only out and spending time with young party girls... then maybe that makes it near impossible to find your ideal women. Nothing wrong with being picky... I know I am. But maybe you'll have better luck finding what you're looking for if the focus isn't young party girls. No sense forging for apples when you're seeking oranges.

[Zon]

I am seeking neither!  I do not aim.  I go from one level of society to the other.  I would rather take things more naturally - just trip over it.

At issue here is a visit, or lifestyle.  I first became interested in foreign women after dating a Romanian girl in New York.  Then I learned more - a lot more.  For me, I wanted to take a more natural approach which required a re-tooling of my life (work / play).

My Plan was  Caribean first; Central America Second; Eastern Europe and Russia last.  I have established business interests as I travel.  Some work, Some don't.  I am after life style.  I have a very relaxed time frame to just soak up the culture without having to look at the clock. 

This is only my personal opinion, but if you go to LOOK, you FIND and other is LOOKING too.  Very difficult to discern true compatibilities under this situation. You have two people with ulterior motivations; and both in NEED of something.  The nature of being human is to HOPE and to WIN.  Oh, I think many marriages begin this way - even with the best intentions - few end up realizing the promise of those first days and weeks.  "When the Gods wish to punish you ... They answer your prayers."

Buddhism is full of riddles.  It is said that you find only when you do not seek.  I think of that often.

[bcc_1_2]

I am seeking neither!  I do not aim.  I go from one level of society to the other.  I would rather take things more naturally - just trip over it.

At issue here is a visit, or lifestyle.  I first became interested in foreign women after dating a Romanian girl in New York.  Then I learned more - a lot more.  For me, I wanted to take a more natural approach which required a re-tooling of my life (work / play).

My Plan was  Caribean first; Central America Second; Eastern Europe and Russia last.  I have established business interests as I travel.  Some work, Some don't.  I am after life style.  I have a very relaxed time frame to just soak up the culture without having to look at the clock. 

This is only my personal opinion, but if you go to LOOK, you FIND and other is LOOKING too.  Very difficult to discern true compatibilities under this situation. You have two people with ulterior motivations; and both in NEED of something.  The nature of being human is to HOPE and to WIN.  Oh, I think many marriages begin this way - even with the best intentions - few end up realizing the promise of those first days and weeks.  "When the Gods wish to punish you ... They answer your prayers."

Buddhism is full of riddles.  It is said that you find only when you do not seek.  I think of that often.

Its pretty clear we are very different people who think very differently. Enjoy your vacation.

[Zon]

I conspicuously positioned myself in the DR and here again in Colombia as an "observer."  However, I am not isolated from the MOB infrastructure.  I move within the MOB structures and beyond them too.  So, although I do not mention my day to day activities because I am not an active suitor, do not assume I without that familiarity.

My trip report, therefore differs from others.  I am neither burning to get married, or a sportsmen.

I spend time.  I assume a natural social position.  (What does this mean?  Guides, those who are connected, get to know me and say, I think you may like THIS girl. We go out. If nothing REALLY special is there  ... I will not manufacture it.  I have met several girls who are VERY popular, but I did not have an authentic interest in them and did not advance an interest.  I think they may have found that odd.)

As I spent more and more time in the DR, I became aware how the REAL interaction with DR people "unfolded" over a rather long time.  That strongly suggests that there is an inaccurate perception that one receives from quick trips and first impressions.  I have seen enough now to go further and say that the knowledge and familiarity that an AM will assume with a CW - in most situations - is less to the CW (who has likely grown cynical and is rather untrusting) will extend to the AM. 

Be careful, and do not presume all is well.  I think one must take a triple take.

The norm in Colombia with regard to League and Age Gaps is NOT the same as in the US.  I doubt seriously that most men can transplant the Colombian truth to the American truth.  They are two different things.

I will continue to develop these thoughts, and I will be here a long time.

[Zon]

Latin America moves at a slower pace.  I already knew this before my trip, but it deserves special emphasis.

Do not make a quick trip to get important matters in order.   One day turns into three, one week turns into three weeks.  You can almost feel yourself change gears.

I have given into the siestas every day.

Rules are different here too.

In the US, we have a TREMENDOUSLY truthful and lawful society.  It is easy to take this for granted.  When you spent time outside the US, you begin to understand that the real truth is often a rare thing.  Facts, reports, stories of all types often become slanted to serve an individuals special agenda. 

[bad40]

rivardco,

what are the significant differences between colombia and the dominican republic?.. women, age differences, culture.. i visited santo domingo once and medellin and cartagena numerous times. my trip to d.r. was too short for me to come any reliable conculsions...

[Zon]

To me the greatest difference is societal first.  Colombia has a very skilled population and a solid infrastructure. There is some kind of political failure and caste system at work that limits financial growth.  I have not wrapped my head around it yet.  But its affect seems to make an otherwise fertile community overly concerned with individual advantage rather than group progress.

The DR is very primitive.  Almost like a camp out that lasted generations.  It produces much more simple - almost primitive - people.  The DR does not have a population of very skilled workers.

I will continue to develop these ideas and observations.  I have had some business developments that will take me to Panama; then Costa Rica.  It looks like I will spend a great deal of time in Colombia and South America in 2009.

[drell283]

Rivardco,

Are you saying that despite an education in something such as engineering, if a person is not of certain social class that they can't suceed?

[utopiacowboy]

It's a pretty stratified society and your chances of moving from one level to the next, while possible, are nothing like your chances in the US. There is a reason why guerrilla organizations like the ELN and the FARC came into being. A small oligarchy controls most of the wealth and power in Colombia.

[Zon]

Dido...

A guy who works hard and has intelligence can rise to a certain level perhaps on the fringes of middle class.  This is Obama greatest symbol - the one generation American Dream incarnate.  (despite numerous specific policy issues that will remain undebated on this thread)

There is a certain hopelessness in this regard that simultaneously saddens the heart for the country observed, and makes one proud of the remarkably pure ideals and values we take for granted in the USA.

[Zon]

So, after witnessing the actions the actions and attitudes of women that takes place before and after their would be husbands visit Colombia.  And after meeting a few of these all to eligible bachelors, I was beginning to get mighty jaded.  Then, I met Joe the Batchell or (not to be confused with McCain's Joe the Plumber)

A very nice guy, mid 40s.  Joe is unassuming and a solid man.  He makes no grandiose statements about his wealth, position, or life style.  He came to Colombia to visit a women with whom he became very serious about this year.  This is his 4th visit in 10 months.  He wanted to talk about marriage for real.  He was measured and serious.

His girl is a model, and the day he arrived she was still not back in Colombia.  After seeing the kinds of things I have seen, I muttered to myself "poor delusional bastard".  That was 5 days ago.

I just met Joe's fiance' while there were beginning the process for K1.  I have friends who I have grown to trust and "call it like it is."  who said Joe and her girl are good people and have a very good chance of making it.

After just spending a couple of hours with them.  I agree.

Joe's girls is in early 20s, but mature because of the realities of life here.  She seems very much in LIKE, love may come.  I hope it does.

The point of this is just to note that lightning does strike. 

[singlefather no more]

Rivardco,

Have you thought about going down to Peru at all ever either for business or to meet the women ?

In Depth: Forbes up coming real estate # 3 (Peru) in the world‏

http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/01/housing-global-property-forbeslife-cx_mw_0402realestate_slide_2.html?thisSpeed=20000

"Based on International Monetary Fund figures, it's due for a 6% jump in GDP this year, compared with 5% in Chile, 5.5% in Argentina and 4% in Brazil. Because it has steered clear of inflation problems, and because of its high World Bank rating on property rights and access to capital, expect much of this money to find its way into property."

Peru is the only country in South America that has gotten investment grade bond status.

Damn currency ( Peru Nuevo Sol ) is strong has not fallen hardly at all to the dollar and has gained against major currencies around the world.

Plus the women are great and beautiful.

I am getting married on December 20 /08 in Chiclayo , Peru.. You should come on down.

singlefather

.

[Zon]

Thank you very warmly for your kind invitation.

I will PM you regarding this very interesting opportunity.

For me, I was a rather sheltered American for the greatest part of my life.  I have recently developed a great appetite to see the world and experience it without a safety line.   I imagine having the opportunity to become acquainted with the Souther Cone extensively in the first 6 months of 2009. 

If all goes well, I plan to do the same to Eastern Europe later in that year.

Amazing freedom we can all incorporate into our lives these days providing we are not tied to traditional jobs.

[Zon]

I have traveled much throughout the Caribbean and Central America over the last 2 years.  While in those areas, I certainly was not “wife hunting”.  Although not running around with a bouquet of flowers, I am open to meeting the right woman.  I have been here in Cali now for three weeks.  My new friend, who has helped many many Americans find wives tells me I am far too picky.  I would not have it any other way.  I do not want to be married because of comfort or accident.  My trip will not a vacation.  It will not be “successful” if I find a – let’s start out with – girlfriend.

Since my intentions are dissimilar to those that post TRs, I have not yet made direct post about women.  Here is my first:

Everyone here thinks American women are ugly.  Not true.  They are just bitchy.  Everyone here thinks American men are ALL very wealthy.  The truth is very few of us equal the wealth and especially the lifestyle that affluent Colombians enjoy (thank God there are few of them).

The most popular Colombian women KNOW they are beautiful (probably since a very young age).  In a country that has great poverty and little hope, it is incredibly difficult for a human with little assets not to use a primary one for advancement. Lastly, if a woman is “popular” and uses the internet and agencies, you are probably not the first gringo she has met.

It is difficult for a Colombian woman to see a gringo as a man only.  Most men will be presented along side a proposition for a better life.  These two propositions are side by side in the woman’s mind.  This can cause many complications.

There are a ton of attractive, nice people!  TONS!  Many eligible women who never have gone to an agency, or use the internet.  Meeting these ladies is nice because they are naturally and innocently excited to meet a gringo.  It is unexpected and without the theatre of Colombian women who SEEK such meetings.

If a man is very serious about finding a Latin wife, and if that man makes a serious attempt to learn Spanish … it would be impossible to be disappointed.

But most American men as superficial and do not look at women who are not drop dead gorgeous. I admit it; I am one too.

There are more “very attractive” women in Colombia than the US.  And, most of these women are open to meeting a gringo with out litmus test ( no serious consideration to physical attraction ).  Therefore, the first level of interest is country of origin. Personally, I take little satisfaction in this since there are a bazillion men in the US.

Why? Wealth and generosity of American men.  PLUS, most Colombian men are poor providers and have poor manners towards women.  With an American life partner, a Colombian women drastically increases opportunities of her and her family.

(Of course, I am talking about the great majority of Colombian women, not the super minority that already have a passport and opportunity)

So far so good, right?

I would advise caution to the men who seek the “most popular” and “most beautiful” women – especially so if you are stretching your league and age difference. Do not think these women live in a vacuum, in quite desperation.  Poor people live too in Colombia.  Everyday.  These women have choices!  Maybe not as much as in the US, but choices they are given, and they are given to them every day.

For me, I have found Colombia more promising to find the type of women I desire.  But it is NOT easy.  I can find the type of women I desire in the US too.  Yet it is more rare still … and then there is the inner beauty  … and I only have one lifetime.

Last night I went to DJ Roger Sanchez in Cali. +/- 3000 of Cali's most eligible dating pool in attendance. Rather than walking through upscale malls, fitness centers, or meeting women associated with agencies / online sites, this was interesting in that is was a complete profile of the natural dating environment - men and women. (Of course, admission to this event at $40 and the type of event - All nighter; headliner did not come on until 2 AM. I left at 6:30 AM - skews the "type" of person to which my comments are directed. Naturally, there are very simple, sweet, and non-party girls in Colombia that were not in attendance.)

This was non marriage agency territory.  These people where more affluent (less needy / desperate). I found the women very open to me -  more so than a similar situation in the US.  Not DRASTIC, however, just a little.  But a little is all it takes.  That is why most Colombian men in these environments would rather me go away – fast I think.  

I did notice, however, that the same “forgiveness” that Colombian Women give to potential American Husbands, they give to their Colombian Men as well.  Many women who where model quality where accompanied by men who where physically unremarkable – and often times far older than the woman.  So age gaps and league, two of the most popular topics of these boards, have to be rethought a little.

Few women speak English here.  Without a good grasp of Spanish, how far can a psychologically well balanced man go? 

I have met nice guys that speak virtually no Spanish fill out K1 forms with nice girls that speak no English.  They both smile and kiss … they do some act with their hands that say “we can not talk, but we are going to get married and there will be no problems …  giggle, giggle, kiss, kiss”

Women do get PMS South of the Equator too, right?

For me a common language is a bottom line requirement. Anything else is relying on dumb luck. It would be like buying a business based upon a physical walk through of the operations only, with no review of the books.  Unwise.  I am not saying it is impossible; but who would willingly and wantingly take such a course if it could be avoided.  LEARN SPANISH, or DATE ENGLISH SPEAKING LADIES.  Or BOTH.

[soltero]

Excellent observations! When you have finished writing this, it may need to be pinned to the top of the 'Trip Report' section so that everyone who visits gets a chance to read it...

[jay5688]

It is difficult for a Colombian woman to see a gringo as a man only.  Most men will be presented along side a proposition for a better life.  These two propositions are side by side in the women's mind.  This can cause many complications.

First I want to agree it is an excellent post. I want to add one thing, this statement is equally true with almost all women and men, AW especially in the area I have lived. They seem to be looking for easy street. I can not comment on other parts of the world but, isn't this what most of us are after.

A better life and if we have a beautiful wife with a great personality, doesn't that seem to be what most guys are looking for also

So the men are equally thinking of the ways this women from any country is going to compliment his life. Not that I don't understand your observations of a better life for them.

I think you have to find a way to make sure the women are with you for the right reasons and not for the better financial position you bring to the table,,,

LOL maybe we could hand out applications and start giving interviews based on looks and personality,,,that would go well with all the American sex discrimination laws I think

[Zon]

Quote - "this statement is equally true with almost all women and men, AW especially in the area I have lived. They seem to be looking for easy street."

Of course there are similarities.  Traditionally, the man is the hunter / provider - although role confusion in the US is problematic and a separate story.  I would be remiss if I were not to point out that there is a SIGNIFICANT difference between Colombian woman and American Women on this criteria of evaluation. 

I think it is commonplace for a Colombian Woman to meet an American Man (or, wealthy Colombian Man) and have in mind the willingness for GREAT Compromise on what they would actually LIKE for themselves in a mate.  Their focus is more on what they NEED of a mate.  This does not suggest anything nefarious!  It is a natural outgrowth of the economic reality.

Live in a real neighborhood and travel through a VERY bad neighborhood in Colombia, and you will come face to face with "Pero Comer Pero".  If you do not see - and feel - how the price of human life changes, and how rapidly and barbarically it changes, you do not fully understand the reality for some who live here. 

NOTE!  As stated up thread, I have found Colombia to be MORE safe AND MORE dangerous than my research and first visit suggested.  It is possible to have a visit to a major Colombian city and never see and hint of danger.  Please do not interpret my remarks as waiving the white flag.  The truth is - unless you try - you will not see the real situation many call normal.

When I suggested that this could cause complications, I may have been too soft.  This intends to amplify the message

[Zon]

I received a pedicure and manicure yesterday that I don't think I could have bought in USA. 2 ladies, 45 minutes ... WOW that's service.

So, I decided not to stop there.

Went to the denitsta today.  Did not really plan on it.  They asked what I wanted, and I said I would like George Clooney's teeth.  20 minutes later, they worked up a quote.  $430.  I said OK (thinking it would take a couple of hours).  Tomorrow will be my first of 6 appointments that will last 2 - 3 hours!

Crazy, huh?

If all turns out well, next week I will see how much it would cost for George's mug.

[Zon]

Some straight talk based upon what I have seen:

How much time do you have to travel over a year?  I think that those that go to agencies likely take out the same "popular girls" over and over and over.  I will also give you my candid evaluations of most Americanos that come to Colombia looking for women:  Half are sportsmen looking for love in all the wrong places.  They want as many numbers as they can squeeze into 5 - 6 days.  The others are rather naive guys that come to fish for women that they could never hope to attract fairly in the USA. (Naturally, there are exceptions to the rule - but I am trying to make a point.)

The bad stories that you hear men share are equal to, or less than, those that the women have of American men.

Beyond these stories are fundamentals.  The fundamentals are individualistic and change everything.  Is a woman genuinely attracted to you? /  Is there a true chemistry?  When you are objective, this is something that is hard to fake. 

I think in addition to learning, or knowing Spanish, you need to have the luxury of time to get to know the woman. This is important, and it blows my mind that many American Men discount this fact.  Let me be REAL clear.  If you meet a woman and you want her to become "your girlfirend"  ... you better make allowances to SEE her regularly and/or SEND her things frequently to insure her saftey and needs.  Otherwise, you are - in truth - not her "boyfriend."

Latin women hold themselves as subordinate to the man.  They deeply perceive their role to support the man in any way they can.  If there is dinner and one plate is better then the other, the man receives the best plate without a second thought. This is what most men call a traditional feminine role.

But that does not come - or should be expected - without performance from the other side of the equation.  The man must guard, secure, and provide.  This too is a traditional role of the masculine. 

You do not get one without the other. And you should not expect to! In the USA, it is common for the woman to pay often and share in the financial burdens.  Look what that brings.

I met an Americano this weekend who came to Cali ONLY to visit one girl with whom he felt was his girl friend.  She is very attractive.  The last time he saw her was in June (now it is November).  They do not share very good communication because of the language barrier.  Long story short,  She made other plans - and alot of them.  In fact, after five days, he did not see her one time.

I have also seen American men come here and be crazy cheap.  (Certainly, not all but enough to create a perception in the "popular" girl's mind as to wonder is this a cheap gringo, or not?)

Just some passing thoughts over coffee.  NOTE:  Of course, I am aware of sad stories that occur with AM from things called SCAMS.  This post is not to commiserate.  This post is to give those new to the game a better perspective.

[michaelb]

You made some very good points about the traditional roles.

[Zon]

Getting George Clooney's teeth hurts like hell.  I have just spent 3 days at the dentista's, 2 hours per visit  (and nothing was really wrong with my teeth in the first place).

But  I have a great relationship developing with my dentista.  She is very kind and we like each other a little bit.

The more activities one has to meet women in natural settings like this, the more can develop.  Colombia is an environment where this kind of opportunities are very very rich.

[Zon]

Business in Colombia favors FORM over FUNCTION.

And here is a TIP:  when you hear "No Problem."  That's when you put on the brakes.  Business in this culture TRIES to be very very civil - let's avoid all possible confrontation of issues, so they blow up at the last minute.  Rather than saying:  Here is the problem, let's find a solution; the inclination is to say no problem; then KABOOM.   Processes are AMAZINGLY thorough! Thoroughness becomes the goal rather than the outcome.  Parties are too quick to withdraw when talk gets tough. 

I may have just wasted 16 days dicking around with lawyers ... with a problem I saw in the beginning and offered a solution.  They said no this morning.  I was so pissed with the possibility of wasted time, I said " I am not taking no for an answer. And who, if I do, who am I going to bill for my time? A "no" does not serve your desire, nor my need.  BLA BLA BLA."  I got the redness out of my face, and said that only half the things I said about lawyers, I actually believe."  The deal will be made over the next few days - I hope.

And other than that, I am studying Spanish.
I WOULD like to spend time with a woman or two that I have met. But for what?  Sure, we can to a loud club, dance all night.  I am good at that.  Its fun. The physical side is easy, it does not require any understanding or communication. Besides, I will go out tomorrow night:)  We have to live in the day... and drink from the cup we have, not the one we think we want. 

I am at a frustrating point in my Spanish.  I do not speak in one word lines anymore, but I still sound like a retarded person.  When I take my time and piece together a grammatically correct sentence, I feel entitled to a round of applause.  My company generally does not share my enthusiasm.  Thank God for the neighborhood kids!

And no matter what happens, I certainly have enjoyed myself greatly.  The edgy and real adventure that Cali has given me is difficult to find, and I do love being around so many beautiful women.  This is a place where real consequences can be expected - I feel more sharp here, more alive.