Young guy seeking advice

[jm21]

OK, hopefully this doesn't sound too naive, but here goes...

[This thing started to drone on a bit, so a brief summary is I'm a 23yo law student who's inexperienced with women, can't find one in America, and thinking it might not be a bad idea to look for a chinese girl after I graduate and get settled in a job, but worried I'm too young/inexperienced.]

So I'm a 23yo law student in Orange County, CA (originally from OR, thinking I'll probably move back to WA/OR when I graduate). My whole life I was never really interested in dating, only marriage, so I spent my time on friends and school. Doing really well here at law school (2nd in class, sorry if it's not reflected in the quality of my writing here), started looking around a bit for a potential g/f or wife, and can't seem to find anyone. It seems like every woman I meet down here is attached, a workaholic, or completely uninterested in me because I'm not into the club/bar scene (no clubs within an hour drive of where I grew up, and going to bars was reserved for pissed off lumberjacks, fishermen, and the like).

I started joking around with some friends in similar spots as myself about russian mail order brides, but the more I looked, the more realistic it seemed. Now I've read up quite a bit on various forums, and looked at some of the major sites. I'm really attracted to the chinese women I've seen...they seem much more modest and sophisticated for some reason, and also seem to be OK with guys that aren't much older than them (I never would have thought my chances at a young girl would be worse because I was younger haha). I also watch a lot of chinese TV, have read some of the big name chinese novels (Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Bandits of the Western Marsh), taken some chinese history/cultural classes in college, have been cooking chinese food (no idea how close I am to the real thing though) since I was in middle school, and generally have been very interested in China. I know a bit about Russia (mainly russian history/culture/literature classes), but next to nothing about the other countries represented.

So I've started thinking maybe young professional american guy+traditional chinese girl=happy family...but I'm not sure if I'm ready for the whole thing. Thought I'd point out some of my concerns and see if I could get some advice.

My girl friends say I'm a sweet guy who'd make a good husband BUT I honestly have never had a girlfriend before (sad, huh?).

I'm an athiest and would _REALLY_ not want my kids to be brought up religiously. I'm not sure many women would agree with that. From my experience with American women, it's a big "HELL NO" from religious girls.

I'm in OK shape, 6' and 32 waist, BUT mainly just a skinny guy. Don't know if that's a big deal. At least half-way decent looking in the face, but no Orlando Bloom or whoever's the current hot guy. Don't know how to post a pic and haven't been around a camera in years anyway.

I'm a country boy at heart, and I really would rather lead a lifestyle out in the country, BUT all the women online seem to be from big cities. I don't want to be stuck in a city the rest of my life, or have to constantly be out clubbing/going to bars/malls, etc...I'd rather be sailing, camping, or just enjoying the sunset with a sweet girl.

I'm leaning more and more towards public sector work (which pays a lot less, starting ~$40-44k/year at the jobs I'm thinking of), so I'm not as financially well-to-do as possible and even in OR/WA where houses are cheaper, I don't think I could afford one for at least a year or two, especially if I had to pay the expenses of courting a girl abroad.

What I'm really looking for is a girl who's intelligent and has fairly high moral stndards (I'm one of the few blockheads who thought abstinence was a good idea). It seems impossible to tell these things about a girl from writing, or even perhaps in person if there's a communication barrier.

Hopefully you guys can give me some advice! My main concern is that I get bowled over by the first pretty girl I see, or get nervous and do something stupid. I'd also like a girl who's closer to my age. One post here was talking about listening to 20yo girls at a mall before thinking about a young bride, and although I'm pretty young I've met VERY few girls under 22 that have more than a shred of maturity.

[Maestoso]

get the career going and the finances in order before. In addition, mature yourself. Be willing and able to make hard decisions and sleep comfortably at night.

[Jimbo]

Hi jm,

Just a couple of thougts here...

At or around your age, very few women will have much maturity, Asian or otherwise.  If you are really determined to get married at the tender age of 23 or so, you'll have to look at a lot of women and look very carefully in order to find one who you know to be mature beyond her years.

You say that you want a girl who has "fairly high moral standards" but who is also not religious.  This is another low-percentage combination, IMO.  Instilling moral standards is a large part of what most religions are about.  I realize that it is your rightful choice to insist that your future children not be raised religiously.  But this inflexible attitude on your part may very well change as you yourself gain maturity.

No flame here, I just wanted to point these things out.

[jm21]

Hi jm,
At or around your age, very few women will have much maturity, Asian or otherwise.  If you are really determined to get married at the tender age of 23 or so, you'll have to look at a lot of women and look very carefully in order to find one who you know to be mature beyond her years.

I was thinking of after I get my career off the ground a bit, age 26, maybe 27. I'm well aware that the vast majority of people (perhaps myself included) are not ready for marriage or any sort of real commitment at my current age.

You say that you want a girl who has "fairly high moral standards" but who is also not religious.  This is another low-percentage combination, IMO.  Instilling moral standards is a large part of what most religions are about.  I realize that it is your rightful choice to insist that your future children not be raised religiously.  But this inflexible attitude on your part may very well change as you yourself gain maturity.

You have a very good point there, and one I've had some experience with. My best girl friend is one hell of a girl, but/because she's very religious. I know she wouldn't accept her children not being raised as catholics, she's quite vehement on that point...it's hard to compromise on issues involving beliefs though.  

I know some religious people (who aren't that religious, non-practitioners generally) who are willing to let their children choose once they've gained some maturity. That's the best I could hope for I think as far as religious girls go.

One of the things that attracted me to Russian/Chinese women is that there seemed to be a higher percentage of non-religious women. Still low though.

I'm not sure that religion breeds morality. From my experience most religious people would like to break the religious rules, but don't dare to. Is that really morality? If you do the right thing because of a threat or a promise, can it really be said to be voluntary? If it's involuntarily, is it really morality or just survival instincts?

I think your moral character depends on your parents more than your religion, but that's just IMHO.

No flame here, I just wanted to point these things out.

No problem at all. I asked for advice and you gave it, how could I complain? I'm also aware I'm in a very odd position as far as a lot of things go, maybe because I grew up with liberal non-religious parents in a conservative religious town.

Low percentages seems to pretty much sum up my experience. Never met a girl like I'm looking for in America, and don't know if any exist abroad, but thought it might be worth a try. I'm sure I'll eventually have to compromise on some things, but my feeling is it's better to shoot for 1st and end up 3rd than shoot for 10th and end up 15th.

[jm21]

In addition, mature yourself. Be willing and able to make hard decisions and sleep comfortably at night.

Going to get some experience with that in the next few years, heh. To transfer or not to transfer? Where to? Where to work...public, private, where at? Then get to lock myself into a mortgage if I can...

And I think practicing as a lawyer, you have to make a lot of hard decisions and learn to not brood on them.

Hopefully by the time I'm 26/27 I'll be less of a worrier. Definiitely getting there, but still a good ways off.

[Jimbo]

jm,

I agree - the parents are the major influence regarding moral character.  Culture is probably number 2 but culture can be strongly influenced by religion in some countries.  In the Philippines, the Catholic Church has had a strong influence over the past 350 years or so.

Many of my wife's friends (Filipinas working in Hong Kong) would call themselves Catholic yet they didn't go to church every Sunday.  Some didn't go at all.  But the strength of character of these women amazed me.  They were hard-working, considerate, modest, loyal (sending money home to family), and helpful to others.  Three of them, according to my wife, had never been with a man and they were in their mid and late 30s.  And they weren't ugly.

I don't claim to know what most Filipinas are like.  Maybe, or probably,  these just happen to be the type of women that my wife associates with.  But when considering where their moral character came from, I think the culture and the Church certainly had a big influence, because that influence was also on the parents.

Were their moral standards enforced "voluntarily?"  I don't look at it that way.  They just had a strong sense of right and wrong.  Some things might feel good but if it's wrong, it's wrong.  They were living alone in a foreign country for years without the Church threatening them every week, yet continued to live by their own standards.

[Humabdos]

OK, hopefully this doesn't sound too naive, but here goes...

Here you go this is a good place to meet a nice girl.

http://orientalhwy.com/Philippines_Maps/Angeles_City_Map/index.htm

Have fun and please post a complete trip report!
Hum

[flipflop]

Sounds to me like you should address some of your hang ups that seem to be closing doors right here at home. I had lots of nice girlfriends when I was your age and religion never seemed to be an issue. Even if ya had to burn an hour on sunday to accomodate your partner. It sounds like you have a nice girl friend right there, someone you like and respect dont let some silly institutional beliefs get in the way of what might be. I dont know whats goin on with the abstinence thing, Ive been sexually active when I was 13. You may have intamcy or trust issues you need to sort out with a therapist. I dont mean to be mean but your coming off to me as a tad narcissistic, I think you need to loosen up and let love find you. It sounds like you have alot going on and a good head on your shoulders  I bet you would be surprised at the results if made yourself a little vulnerable.  University campuses a crawlin with lovely women, I find it hard to believe that in the entire USA god didnt make a partner for jm21. You seem very defensive and guarded  which can be useful in the over indulgent culture we live. The down side of that is that if you dont trust enough to let others in you never meet or get to know the girl of your dreams, let alone the girl next door.

[jm21]

Jimbo: Yes, I think cultural influences are very strong, and religion is often a prominent, if not the most prominent, contributor to cultural mores (sp?). But I think there is a distinct difference between religious and moral values. For example, I have a good friend who's a very devout muslim. He doesn't drink or eat pork. Is not eating pork a moral value? Arguably not drinking, at least to excess, is, yet many religious and cultures are very accepting of drinking in moderation.

I think there are certain values that almost all religions share, things that seem very right (not stealing, not killing, not cheating on your wife/husband, doing your best to raise your kids, helping others, etc.). I hestitate to say those values belong to a single religion, or any religion. I think rather they're moral values which religions have embraced as religious values. In turn, this makes it more compelling for people to follow them, which is a good thing.

And I'm not trying to say the church is threatening brimstone and hellfire if the person doesn't obey the religion's guideline. I think a lot of religious people are morally upright, but there are those who only do it because of cajolery (sp?), or promises of eternal life, or something along those lines.

It's the same thing with laws. Generaly speaking our laws are supposed to represent what our society thinks is "right," and most people will never violate a law because they inherently think such crimes (murder, incest, rape, etc.) are wrong. However, there are plenty of people who just don't understand the reason the law is there. They see it only as a possiblity of punishment. These type of people are few i think, but they're definitely there.

Also, there are plenty of laws society later deems immoral or improper. I think the same thing happens with religion: religions change over time to adapt to changing views. One of my professors in undergrad was a catholic deacon and he was one of the most progressive, forward-thinking people I've ever met. He believed, as I think most people would, that he's a far cry from catholics in Dante's time (he taught Dante BTW, hence the reference).

flipflop:
The girl friend I was talking about (the catholic one) is not available unfortunately. She has a boyfriend of 1.5 years who she'll probably marry (med student, body builder, really nice guy). For a girl like her, ya I'd probably re-think the whole religion thing, but not gonna happen. Who knows if she'd be interested in me romantically anyways? I'm fine being her friend, and she's been a great friend to me, always giving me advice on how to deal with women. Learned a lot from her.

I don't have any problems dating a religious girl. None at all. None with having a religious wife. I've gone to churhc with friends before, nothing abnormal. The problem comes with kids. I think forcing a relgion on your kids (and my best friend who's religious thinks this way too) is just plain wrong. You should explain to them why you think the way you do and let them come to their own conclusions.

Abstinence? I think most people who go down that path (and there are quite a few people who do...) generally do it because they want to devote everything they have to one person. They see losing their virginity as an extraordinary expression of love and devotion and want to share the moment with the person they'll spend their life with. I've seriously thought about giving up the whole thing, but I'm 23 already...why not hold off a bit longer? It's not like I don't want to be intimate with a girl, far from it. Just don't want to go all the way 'til I'm sure of her. I probably wouldn't hold off any longer than engagement, or maybe before then if I was pretty sure it was headed that way.

I don't mean to sound narcissistic...I actually have a pretty low opinion of myself as far as women go. I just never want to be in a relationship that's not 50/50, and there just don't seem to be that many women who're looking for that, at least at my age.

Maybe my standards are too high, but I'm not so sure. A lot of the girls I thought were decent my friends laughed at me for even considering. I just don't want a girl who's all about sex or money, or not willing to commit, or not willing to put an equal share into the relationship.

Also, although I'm sure it doesn't come through in my writing, I'm a pretty smart guy...I've come to recognize that's one of the things I value most in friends and women, though it took me a long time and lot of nagging from the previously mentioned girl to admit it. That by itself limits me to under 1/5 of women.

College campuses? Ya they are indeed crawling with good looking girls, but 1. I'm not at a university (small private law-only school) and 2. most of the women who go out are not looking for a 50/50 relationship...the decent girls seem to keep to themselves for the most part. I regret not trying harder to meet women in college (I graduated a year early at 21), but not much I can do about that now. Was too focused on other things and missed out, probably big-time.

And hey, I'm not saying I absolutely won't find someone in America by the time I'm 26. Hopefully I will. I know a great girl in one of my classes I've been getting on better and better terms with...would be great if it worked out. She's smart as hell, decent looking, works her ass off, and my type pretty much all the way (though a little dorky sometimes...but who cares?). She seems to be attracted to me too, but only time will tell I guess. Strangely, I think she's catholic too (maybe there is something to catholic girls?).

My cousin's down visiting with her boyfriend, and they have a great relationship, and she's a great girl.

It's definitely not impossible, it's just hard...at least for me. My personality does not fit at ALL with the American dating system...I'm learning, slowly, thanks to help from girl friends. Take it slowly, don't always be honest, compliments help, don't think too far ahead...I'm just an odd guy and these things don't come naturally to me. I do fine with longer-term relationships because I'm honest, listen to people, seriously think about what they say, am very comitted, always willing to help, always on time and keep my promises, etc., but breaking the ice with your average girl is extremely hard for me, especially down here where most conversations seem to revolve around sports (which I know next to nothing about).

Anyways, as far as the whole foreign bride thing is concerned, I just want to know about other options before I get there so I can plan things out a bit and understand my options. If I end up 26 in some small town in OR or WA, there just aren't many options. Igrew up there, I know what it's like. The chances of meeting a decent girl at that point are damn poor.

[flipflop]

After readin your response its nice to see our culture can still produce young gentlemen. You sound alot like me when I was young except I coped by getting drunk and buying whores. Your path is probably better in the long run but a few small adjustments in your approach could be all it takes. Loosen up, have fun and remember ya cant control everything.

 I think what you have just given witness to is mans eternal quest to figure out women. fugettaboutit  :lol:

[Ransardd]

Just wanted to say you guys are all great.
Its not often I've read so many insightful, well-meaning posts anywhere.

I wouldn't call jm21 narcissistic, can't see what would make anyone think so.

Good luck to you, jm21 and all the rest of you!

[Howard]

JM

First of all, let me say that you seem like someone who has his head screwed on tight!  Which is nice to see from someone your age

I think you would be able to find a wonderful wife overseas except for the religious preference or should I say the lack thereof  From my expirience, ladies from the Philippines are the least intimidated by things that are wholly American - or European at least.  Filipinos have had a solid, longstanding relationship with the US, therefor have a better grasp on many of our customs.  That said, I have a very hard time believing you will find the type of wife you're looking for, from an Asian country, that will not only accept your atheism, but allow you to raise your - collectively - children with no hint of religion.

Personally, I am someone who has a strong sense of morality that has many issues with organized religion.  I am not what you would call very religious, but I was raised quite religiously.  I feel this has a lot to do with my character and morality.  Although I do not do things in hopes of getting to 'Heaven' I feel that I have a strong sense of right and wrong because of my early upbringing.

Anyway... I am just sharing what knowledge I have in regards to your question.  I will ask you this though, how can you have a 50/50 relationship with someone and make 100% of the decisions regard your children's religious upbringing or lack thereof?

Good Luck in your travels... I hope you find what you're looking for

H

[Ray]

I think forcing a relgion on your kids… is just plain wrong. You should explain to them why you think the way you do and let them come to their own conclusions.

I think you have a lot to learn about raising children. As a father, you will find yourself "forcing" a lot of things on your kids. It's called parental guidance.

If you try to run your home as a democracy where your children get to make all the decisions about life choices, then you may just end up raising a bunch of juvenile delinquents.

If their mother takes the initiative to give your children a religious upbringing, don't stand in her way. When they approach adulthood, they will have every opportunity to forget whatever they learned if they so desire.

Ray

[Ray]

Hi Howard

I agree with you. Why the gloomy avatar?

Ray

[jm21]

Howard:

That said, I have a very hard time believing you will find the type of wife you're looking for, from an Asian country, that will not only accept your atheism, but allow you to raise your - collectively - children with no hint of religion.

I was thinking it might be possible to find a nice athiest girl in China due to the influences of communism. Also, a lot of Chinese still go the path of confucias or buddhism, both of which I have a lot less problems with. Maybe Japan? But that would be a much different kind of relationship. Possibly Korea? Watched some Korean movies but don't know a helluva lot about Korean people.

This thread has meandered a bit, but originally I said I was interested in girls from the former USSR and China because of the religious thing. I've seen a small number from both places. As a side-note, why the lack of Chinese girls on the international scene? I've read a lot about Chinese marriage agencies in other asian countries, but there are extremely few women advertised on any of the international marriage sites. Just less Chinese who speak English maybe? Maybe think an American guy is out of their range? I've heard a lot about chinese brides being less desireable in other Asian countries. Maybe the agencies just don't think they're very popular so don't list as many?

Don't mean to bash western religions too much. I know I'm prejudiced  against them, working on lessening that and have come a long ways. You grow up as the only athiest your age in town and you get a lot of flak from religious people which instills a bit of bias in a person...I remember when I first got together with my best friend, he had to ask his mom for permission to hang out with me, and she told him it was fine as long as he didn't listen to any of my heathen talk. Priceless moments like that create a bit of resentment.

Filipinos...they seem to speak MUCH better English than other countries, and seem like extremely virtuous girls, but whenever I see "looking for god-fearing man" or "hobbies: bible," it's a bit of a turn-off, hahaha. I think i saw "god-fearing" 5 times on one profile.

A hint of religion is fine, even a strong hint. But when it becomes an ultimatum ("you're going to church right now young man, whether you want to or not!" or something like that) I start having problems.

Personally, I am someone who has a strong sense of morality that has many issues with organized religion.  I am not what you would call very religious, but I was raised quite religiously.  I feel this has a lot to do with my character and morality.  Although I do not do things in hopes of getting to 'Heaven' I feel that I have a strong sense of right and wrong because of my early upbringing.

I'm not saying all religious people are immoral, or would discard all moral values if the church didn't continuously pound them into their head. Just some people, and nowadays it's a very small number because it seems like religion doesn't have enough power to sway them anymore, or they can find one of the myriad denominations that accepts their behavior.  

I also think you're probably onto something with early introduction to religion being good for people on the average. As an athiest, I've often found it hard to justify a lot of my morals, and there is no support from religion or fellow religious people to rely on. Also, I think the religious community can be very supportive and a good way for kids to meet others that are similarly upstanding. That being said, working at the DA's office, there are a ton of rapists who meet girls through church...church and myspace-type websites were definitely the top targets.

Anyway... I am just sharing what knowledge I have in regards to your question.  I will ask you this though, how can you have a 50/50 relationship with someone and make 100% of the decisions regard your children's religious upbringing or lack thereof?

First of all, my reason for trying to find an athiest girl or one who doesn't care about religion was so it would be a 50/50 decision, or a 50/50 compromise.

Second, you can have a 50/50 relationship and make 100% of the decision on some things. Just means on other things you don't have a say. There's not always a compromise on every issue...sometimes one person has to concede, and most of the time I don't think it's a big deal. There are plenty of things I'm sure a girl would want me to do that I didn't want to, but I think it's better to concede unless it strikes on a core value, and even then it's often better to concede.

Don't mean to get too into all this because I haven't been in a long-term romantic relationship, but I talk to people who have good relationships, read up a bit, that sort of thing. Have a general idea. I think also that all relationships have some values at the core that are always the same no matter what type of relationship it is.

Ray:

I think you have a lot to learn about raising children. As a father, you will find yourself "forcing" a lot of things on your kids. It's called parental guidance.

There are plenty of things that are good for kids that they don't want to do that should be forced on them. When I was a kid I often hated going camping or other outdoor things. Wanted to stay home and meet with friends, that sort of thing. In retrospect I'm glad my parents forced me too because I now have a MUCH greater appreciation of nature and a  healthier lifestyle because of those trips.

I just don't think religion falls in that category...IMHO it's not something good or bad but a personal choice. Obviously other people think differently .

For me I think of it like if a kid walked in wearing a yellow shirt. I don't like yellow, at least as a shirt color. Do I tell them "strip off that shirt and put on a black one?" I don't think that's right. You shouldn't force your preferences on your children.

If their mother takes the initiative to give your children a religious upbringing, don't stand in her way. When they approach adulthood, they will have every opportunity to forget whatever they learned if they so desire.

Well, I don't think I'd have much of a choice there, heh. If I was working and her staying home, I'd just have to trust her to raise the kids for the most part, right? She has the right to raise her kids as she sees fit, and her raising them in the best way she can is what I would hope for. I'd probably try to get my piece in when I could, but I wouldn't interfere unless it went too far. I don't want to say grace every night and don't particularly want to spend my weekends near a church. I could probably live with a hands-off attitude, but I'm not going to encourage it.

[Jimbo]

jm,

Ray makes an excellent point.  Young children need direction, especially when it comes to moral standards.  They need choices too but the choices must be appropriate for the age.  If you ask a seven year old, "would you like to go to the protestant church or the mosque?", they're likely to say "which one gives you the most candy?"  If you wait until they are fifteen, then their moral character is already established.

Howard makes a good point too.  I was raised as a Catholic to the age when I was Confirmed.  Then my parents told me that my attendance at Church was up to me.  I stopped going and have rarely gone since.  In general I believe that the influence of the Church on my life was a positive one.  It wasn't all good; the guilt trips were too much at times, I think now.

I also have fond memories of my strict grandfather making my brother and I scrub under our fingernails before Church on Sunday and then taking us to Fenway Park for the Red Sox game in the afternoon.  He was tough on the Red Sox too.  He'd watch old Yaz (Carl Yastrzemski) take a third strike and yell out, "Yastrzemski, you bum!"  LOL!  I guess he needed to vent a bit after having the priest venting on us during the sermon.

Ransardd,

Thank you!  BTW, humabdos makes a good point too --- you got to be careful out there -ROFL!

[Jimbo]

Ok jm,

Yes, we have wandered off down the morals/religion track too far, so getting back to some of your original concerns and request for advice,

What I'm really looking for is a girl who's intelligent and has fairly high moral stndards []. It seems impossible to tell these things about a girl from writing, or even perhaps in person if there's a communication barrier.

Hopefully you guys can give me some advice! My main concern is that I get bowled over by the first pretty girl I see, or get nervous and do something stupid.

By intelligent, do you also mean educated?  If so then Japan may be your best bet.  Our new moderator Jeff S has said before that if you want a lady who knows her Chopin and Handel (or was it Schubert and Brahms? :-) ) then your odds are obviously better in Japan as opposed to the Philippines.

You've mentioned that a Chinese lady might be a good choice regarding high moral standards without being overly religious, and I think you're right for the reasons you've stated.  That's another tough language barrier but we've had success stories here too.  Maybe Windmill Boy will be able to share some of his experience; he went to both Japan and China in his search.

How do you determine these things, given the communication barrier?  You've got to be a bit of a dectective!  Be observant, ask questions (polite questions and not too many at a time), try to be objective, and tally up the red flags!  You've got to ask yourself some questions first and then watch as the answers become available, like:

Why does she consider marrying a foreigner?
Is she willing to leave her country?  Is she anxious to get out of her country?
Does she live with her parents or on her own, and why?  What are her responsibilities?
How is her relationship with her family?  Troubled?  Solid and traditional?
Does she handle money well, understanding the value of it?
How does she handle the subject of ex-boyfriends?  Curtly?  Expansively?  Vaguely?
Does she ever ask you for money?
Can she at least engage on the subjects of current events, politics, technology, etc?  
Is she a fan of Bill Clinton?  (no... I'm just joking... well, maybe not!)
Does she have a degree of candor, or is she always playing things close to the vest?
Are her photos model-like, or overly suggestive or sexy?
Does she say "I love you" way sooner than you would expect?
Even with language problems, do you feel a connection within your conversations, a back-and-forth flow to the dialogs?  Or is it like pulling teeth?

Now, how do you avoid getting bowled over by the first pretty girl?  Hell, if I knew the answer to that I'd be a billionaire!  But I'll take a run at it.

It's what we mean by trying to stay objective.  When people get involved emotionally they tend to rationalize the red flags; "She needs the money because her family is poor and she loves them", things like that.  No good person asks for money from someone they hardly know!  A desperate person might but do you want to marry a desperate person?  Being objective when you feel those tugs on your heart takes more than strength - it takes a plan.  That's why you need to have your set of questions in place before you start down the road.  You need to discipline yourself to keep some kind of score so that you can jolt yourself back to reality when you'd rather not consider reality.  If you're down 10 to 0 in the 9th inning, yes, you could still win the game.  But do you like your chances?

Finally, remember that you need a little luck too.  All you can do is try to put the odds in your favor as much as possible and then go for it.  That's been one of Ray's messages.  It's also very similar to Colin Powell's 80/20 rule.  The 80/20 rule states that you don't wait until you're 100% certain before taking action because then it's too late (the girl is long gone).  The last 20% is not possible to achieve without losing the objective.  You take action when you've reached the point where you're around 80% certain.

That's my view, based on my experience and from what I've learned from others on this board.  We have happy stories, we have sad stories, and we've got people who've lived them both.  It's not an easy game but it's not real difficult either.  It's fun too, as it should be, because wonderful, soaring emotions are involved.  The irony comes from the necessity to ignore those emotions when a reality check is required.

[jm21]

Jimbo:

Thanks for the advice. That's a great list of questions.

As a side-note, one of my good friends down here got his pic taken with Colin Powell. Has it set as the background on his laptop to show off all the time, lol.

Intelligence and education...that's a tough one. Doesn't modern science say that the more you learn the more synapses or whatever are created in your brain, making you smarter?

On the other hand, I know people with great grades who are not bright at all and vice-versa.

My personal view on the link between the two is that intelligent people generally like to use their intellect. They seek out opportunities, such as education, to expand their mind. So probably college girls are on the whole more likely to be intelligent.

Ehh..current events and politics aren't my specialty. Not too strong in the art or classical music area either...know a bit about literature because I was an English major and read quite a bit.

I think I'd be more looking for someone who can understand and intelligently contemplate philosphical questions. I think anyone who wants to and can use their mind like that, with a relatively short response time, is probably smart enough for me. I think response time would be hard to gauge with just letters, but even with the language barriers you could do it with IMs or a phone call I think...but not the sort of thing you would normally talk to with a person you don't know all that well...or is it?

Maybe I'm more concerned with whether a person likes to think about things or not, rather than how smart they are, or maybe some combination of the two.

I'm pretty good with languages, but would be hard to learn to speak from tapes, college classes go ridiculously slow, and private instructors cost an arm and a leg. Maybe try and make some friends from the countries I'm thinking about, or maybe a girl would get a kick from listening to an American butcher her language?

[jm21]

Hmmm..so I posted my profile on two places because they required it to view the girls' profiles, and all of a sudden I'm bombarded by women. All I wrote in my profile was pretty much "I'm a poor student that isn't suitable marriage material," yet there's all these women showing interest in me. Very wierd for me...I tried American personals twice and women either laughed or bitched at me when I tried to flirt with them. Now if I log on to answer a message at www.blossoms.com (cheap and thought it would be nice to get a feel for the women out there) 4-5 filipinos invite me to chat by the time i've written a response. Strangely (or not?), only filipino and chinese girls have showed any interest in me.

I have enough money to travel, and think it'd be great to meet a girl before I get a decent job, but just seems unreal. Good looking girls looking for a "nice guy"?

[doombug]

I tried American personals twice and women either laughed or bitched at me when I tried to flirt with them.

Ever more reason to avoid these shallow, self-important hags.

Now if I log on to answer a message at www.blossoms.com (cheap and thought it would be nice to get a feel for the women out there) 4-5 filipinos invite me to chat by the time i've written a response. Strangely (or not?), only filipino and chinese girls have showed any interest in me.

That is going to get old real quick.  The hounding (much of it conniving desperation from the pinays) compelled me to flee from the site years ago.  I did meet two women on Blossoms that turned out be extremely friendly and sincere personalites.  One was Ukranian, and the other Peruvian.  Two bright, witty, and grounded ladies -- rarities on the site.

One thing about Blossoms:  Learn not to feel guilty about giving girls the cold shoulder there.  Many of them are opportunists who are extremely skilled at playing on a guy's conscious.